DPS tests are dumb...change my mind

FakeFox · August 2018

If you can't hit 40-50k on the dummy you will do even less so in a raid. Of course good raid DPS depends on many factors but perfecting you rotation on the dummy is one of them and it is actually quite the important one. So if you want to be good as a DD this is absolutely required. If just clearing content is your type of thing, not so much.

FakeFox · August 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm not saying IRL skill should be taken out of the mix, but perhaps ability to repeat a timing and pattern shouldn't be the end-all-be-all for high DPS in an RPG?

And it isn't. Taking this rotation and situationaly adapting it is really the key to top DPS.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · August 2018

I am not sure how useful is a test on a dummy when:

You use sets you don't use in trials.
You slot skills you don't use in trials.
You use mondus stones you don't use in trials.
The dummy does not do anything.
You have someone buffing you.
You have someone debuffing the dummy.

Flawless Conqueror tells way more than the dummy does.

FakeFox · August 2018

You use sets you don't use in trials.
You don't have to, if you want representative results. But you can do so and still train you rotation.

You slot skills you don't use in trials.
You don't have to, but you can do so without changing your rotation to a relevant degree.

You use mondus stones you don't use in trials.
You don't have to, if you want representative results. But you can do so and still train you rotation.

The dummy does not do anything.
Isn't that the point, learning what you are doing with you build first, before introducing additional factors.

You have someone buffing you.
You don't have to. But if you do, doesn't that make it more realistic, as this is what you have in dungeons and trials?

You have someone debuffing the dummy.
You don't have to. But if you do, doesn't that make it more realistic, as this is what you have in dungeons and trials?

Olupajmibanan · August 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Until ZOS makes content that requires everyone to be at 40k minimal DPS to have even a chance to complete, the entire DPS argument can go die in a ditch.

20k is enough to clear pretty much most dungeons, even some vet DLC dungeons.
30k will get you through all vet DLC dungeons and most Vet HM Trials, if not all of them.

More than that just means you get a faster burn thru and can start going for Score Runs but ESO is such a casual heavy game that I fail to see the need for Score Run elitism that poisons the player base so heavily. ESO has way too many glitches, exploits, and cheesy set ups to be taken that seriously, IMO.

30k is not enough for hard modes in vet trials. It may be enough for Craglorn ones but honestly, Craglorn trials are history now.

Try to enter vMoL (the oldest non-Craglorn trial) and beat hard mode with all 8 DDs doing 30k parses. It's doable in theory, assuming multiple lunar phases are beaten, but in practice it's not that easy. My group has enough dps to skip lunar phase entirely (which is 1000 times easier) and we still struggled for weeks trying to beat hard mode.
Look at vHoF. Assembly General on hard mode is ridiculously easy. The only thing with that boss is having enough dps to beat the execute phase. And again, group of 8 DDs doing 30k solo parses is certainly not enough.
Asylum Sanctorium doesn't even have execute phase. And I can tell you, it will be complete masochism if you bring DDs doing 30k solo parses and try to beat it on hard mode (both mini bosses living).
And what do you think of Cloudrest on +3? Most guilds are not able to complete it even with DDs doing 40k+ solo parses. It's hard.......it's tremendously hard even if you fill your group with absolute dps monsters.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · August 2018

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

And what do you think of Cloudrest on +3? Most guilds are not able to complete it even with DDs doing 40k+ solo parses. It's hard.......it's tremendously hard even if you fill your group with absolute dps monsters.

Well, doing 40k DPS won't help if people do not understand the concepts of stack and swap.

Izaki · August 2018

Thing is... Someone who can pull 50k on a 6mil target dummy, knows his rotation like the back of his hand and will definitely be able to keep it up in raids while still being able to focus on all the mechanics, so you can count on the guy to pull some good DPS. Basically it just shows how well you know your rotation in a perfectly controlled environment. If you can pull high numbers on a stationary target consistently (< that's the key here), that means that you know your class and your rotation well enough that you don't really have to focus on it during a raid. So you can expect 70k DPS on boss fights from the dude who pulls 50k on a 6mil dummy. You can't possibly expect someone who pulls 30k on the 3 mil target dummy to pull 70k DPS on a boss fight with mechanics. Why? Because that dude doesn't know his rotation well enough to be doing it without actually thinking about it, which means that in raids, that dude will either mess up/die or pull lower DPS.

Now obviously the numbers I've stated are just examples and depend on the class, for example, I wouldn't expect a Mag DK or a Magplar to pull 55k on a 6 mil target dummy. But it wouldn't surprise me at all coming from a Stamblade.

And obviously, I exaggerated things, but that's the general idea from my point of view.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · August 2018

Izaki wrote: »

If you can pull high numbers on a stationary target consistently (< that's the key here), that means that you know your class and your rotation well enough that you don't really have to focus on it during a raid.

A rotation is nothing but a patter that you (blindly) repeat. You can copy/paste builds and rotations from the Internet. That does not mean you know your class.

ZeroXFF · August 2018

Izaki wrote: »

Thing is... Someone who can pull 50k on a 6mil target dummy, knows his rotation like the back of his hand and will definitely be able to keep it up in raids while still being able to focus on all the mechanics, so you can count on the guy to pull some good DPS. Basically it just shows how well you know your rotation in a perfectly controlled environment. If you can pull high numbers on a stationary target consistently (< that's the key here), that means that you know your class and your rotation well enough that you don't really have to focus on it during a raid. So you can expect 70k DPS on boss fights from the dude who pulls 50k on a 6mil dummy. You can't possibly expect someone who pulls 30k on the 3 mil target dummy to pull 70k DPS on a boss fight with mechanics. Why? Because that dude doesn't know his rotation well enough to be doing it without actually thinking about it, which means that in raids, that dude will either mess up/die or pull lower DPS.

Now obviously the numbers I've stated are just examples and depend on the class, for example, I wouldn't expect a Mag DK or a Magplar to pull 55k on a 6 mil target dummy. But it wouldn't surprise me at all coming from a Stamblade.

And obviously, I exaggerated things, but that's the general idea from my point of view.

Somebody doing 30k dps could know his rotation like the back of his hand too, it could just be a different rotation (HA vs. LA, static vs. dynamic etc).

Geekgirl · August 2018

I can see DPS counters on PUGs trying to get through difficult content, I guess. Or guilds trying to make leaderboard pushes.

I've been terrified of trials and most vet content because I have been led to believe I needed a certain set or a certain DPS pull to be successful.

I was wrong.

I also am going to get vilified for this, but I don't care...

What I needed was a better guild with team leaders who are REAL leaders, who know how to work with and balance the resources they have, who learn the strengths of their team members and use what they have to get the job done.

Fastest runs? Nope, but we don't want that. We want fun, happy runs with teammates who laugh over wipes and have a good freaking time.

DPS requirements getting you down? Find better teammates.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

FakeFox wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm not saying IRL skill should be taken out of the mix, but perhaps ability to repeat a timing and pattern shouldn't be the end-all-be-all for high DPS in an RPG?

And it isn't. Taking this rotation and situationaly adapting it is really the key to top DPS.

Agreed. How the console types (no addons/trackers) manage it is beyond my comprehension.

I guess I'd like to see a middle ground, something between the current 'Throw any combination on your bar and effectively be guaranteed to hit this amount," (Proverbial "floor," I suppose) vs perfected timing in all circumstances to hit the top end.

I'm just not sure what that something would be. (I would like it to be something more than timed HA's during short periods of Off Balance or a lucky WM/MA synergy)

The current dynamics are still primarily lulls in rotation due to mechanics, picked up where left off in the 'timeline.' I am ever amazed at the seemingly choreographed performances of the top DPS.

Izaki · August 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

If you can pull high numbers on a stationary target consistently (< that's the key here), that means that you know your class and your rotation well enough that you don't really have to focus on it during a raid.

A rotation is nothing but a patter that you (blindly) repeat. You can copy/paste builds and rotations from the Internet. That does not mean you know your class.

Which is why I said "consistently". And I doubt a beginner Stamblade would be able to pull 57-58k on a 6mil dummy just by copying Liko's build and rotation. Plus it doesn't matter if you copy a rotation or a build, you will still have to learn it (while learning the class) as you practice it and by the time you're done, you will have acquired at least some insight into the class. No point in frowning upon copy/pasting builds and rotations, because as you do, you learn it and usually end up tweaking it to your taste.

And if you tell me that it doesn't take time or practice to copy something, then you'd be very wrong.

bloodthirstyvampire · August 2018

I agree, I do way more dps in dungeons and trials then I do on a skeleton, regardless of thr group buff, because the pressure is on, my rotations speed and sync is increased, so 30k on a dummy is like 40k on the actual boss,.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

bloodthirstyvampire wrote: »

I agree, I do way more dps in dungeons and trials then I do on a skeleton, regardless of thr group buff, because the pressure is on, my rotations speed and sync is increased, so 30k on a dummy is like 40k on the actual boss,.

No, that's probably group buff.

You might have slightly improved response due to adrenaline, but it's not going to account for a 33% increase in your DPS.

The timings for LA's and the GCD's between skills don't change just because a boss is engaged.

The idea being, your DPS will go down as you're learning boss mechanics. Your DPS will go up due to group buffs/support.

The goal is to get the one to far outweigh the other, which is why as you get better with mechanics, you get better with surviveability, and your DPS goes up accordingly much more than it goes down.

This is why the Skele parse is still a good baseline.

Violynne · August 2018

FakeFox wrote: »

Isn't that the point, learning what you are doing with you build first, before introducing additional factors.

Valid, but irrelevant. I can stand all day targeting against a skeleton which doesn't move, but it's completely different in an area I've got to move and hit moving targets.

This idiocy of "50k dps" has plagued all MMOs (as I read comments from players while learning since ESO is my first MMO).

Almost every player complains about the pattern memorization needed to be top players, which makes the game feel like a chore, than someone playing the game.

And I concur. Once I realized this is the "end game", I decided no longer care in running vet dungeons in this game. If players can't accept me at "X" dps, then they're speed runners which I have no desire to join.

Make sure people understand: I don't care there are max DDs who want this as part of their game. It's flexible they can have it.

But what's troubling is the growing "exclusionists" or "elitists" who now demand a "resume" before joining the group.

I can't blame them. All MMOs have this group.

But, and whether this is coincidental or not remains to be proven, when this poison spreads in the game, the player base shrinks.

That's... rather disappointing.

By the way: my dps is barely 10k. I have no passion to learn ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA just to play a game.

Those days are gone for me, and should be so for everyone else as well.

It's 2018. Why the hell are we still using mechanics of the 90s.

*sigh*

ZarkingFrued · August 2018

This max DPS meta is just because everyone is scared of actually playing out the mechanics of content. They like easy mode. Why play at all if you have to play on easy mode? This is what drove me away from pve in the first place. Nerf PVE DPS ZOS. No more burn the boss before he has a chance to go into the first mechanic

swirve · August 2018

FakeFox wrote: »

If you can't hit 40-50k on the dummy you will do even less so in a raid. Of course good raid DPS depends on many factors but perfecting you rotation on the dummy is one of them and it is actually quite the important one. So if you want to be good as a DD this is absolutely required. If just clearing content is your type of thing, not so much.

Wrong.

If you get no raid buffs youll do less, but if you get raid buffs youll be higher unless you are poor on mechanics / dead

swirve · August 2018

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

This max DPS meta is just because everyone is scared of actually playing out the mechanics of content. They like easy mode. Why play at all if you have to play on easy mode? This is what drove me away from pve in the first place. Nerf PVE DPS ZOS. No more burn the boss before he has a chance to go into the first mechanic

Yup... a lot of players are *** poor on mechanics and rely on DPS to save their grass.

swirve · August 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm not saying IRL skill should be taken out of the mix, but perhaps ability to repeat a timing and pattern shouldn't be the end-all-be-all for high DPS in an RPG?

And it isn't. Taking this rotation and situationaly adapting it is really the key to top DPS.

Agreed. How the console types (no addons/trackers) manage it is beyond my comprehension.

I guess I'd like to see a middle ground, something between the current 'Throw any combination on your bar and effectively be guaranteed to hit this amount," (Proverbial "floor," I suppose) vs perfected timing in all circumstances to hit the top end.

I'm just not sure what that something would be. (I would like it to be something more than timed HA's during short periods of Off Balance or a lucky WM/MA synergy)

The current dynamics are still primarily lulls in rotation due to mechanics, picked up where left off in the 'timeline.' I am ever amazed at the seemingly choreographed performances of the top DPS.

The PC master race have so many crutches via add-ons and trackers... console players are playing hardcore mode.

Raudgrani · August 2018

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

You can easily pass them on a group on around 20k dps, easily. That's how the game was when that dungeon dropped ffs...

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

swirve wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm not saying IRL skill should be taken out of the mix, but perhaps ability to repeat a timing and pattern shouldn't be the end-all-be-all for high DPS in an RPG?

And it isn't. Taking this rotation and situationaly adapting it is really the key to top DPS.

Agreed. How the console types (no addons/trackers) manage it is beyond my comprehension.

I guess I'd like to see a middle ground, something between the current 'Throw any combination on your bar and effectively be guaranteed to hit this amount," (Proverbial "floor," I suppose) vs perfected timing in all circumstances to hit the top end.

I'm just not sure what that something would be. (I would like it to be something more than timed HA's during short periods of Off Balance or a lucky WM/MA synergy)

The current dynamics are still primarily lulls in rotation due to mechanics, picked up where left off in the 'timeline.' I am ever amazed at the seemingly choreographed performances of the top DPS.

The PC master race have so many crutches via add-ons and trackers... console players are playing hardcore mode.

Yeah, you spelled "Buyer's remorse" wrong.

You can run a marathon without shoes, too (no crutch "hardcore mode") but that doesn't necessarily make it better.

What you intend to say it that you're content with guessing the timing on things, and that's your option. You can learn timing in either case, so it just comes down to a preference of platform.

There's enough guesswork involved already in this game.

CultOfMMO · August 2018

no raid team in the right mind will benchmark players relative to content these days, cuz dps ceilings have already been too high for too many patches. Instead, raid teams will benchmark you relative to other players available, and rightfully so. Requiring 40k sounds ridiculous out of context until you realize thats a solid pathetic 80% at best of what mere decent players pull, and prob closer to 70% of top end players. Why should anyone tolerate your 30k dps when you're too lazy to keep up with the meta?

maybe if you're a comedian or a team therapist or something? idk but you have to ask yourself what value you bring to the group. 30k is pathetic, you following mechanics perfectly and not dying to stupid *** wont make up for that, because plenty can do all the above while maintaining 40k+

Kanar · August 2018

swirve wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

This max DPS meta is just because everyone is scared of actually playing out the mechanics of content. They like easy mode. Why play at all if you have to play on easy mode? This is what drove me away from pve in the first place. Nerf PVE DPS ZOS. No more burn the boss before he has a chance to go into the first mechanic

Yup... a lot of players are *** poor on mechanics and rely on DPS to save their grass.

Agreed. The push for huge DPS is caused by the ability to skip mechanics. This allows people who aren't very good at mechanics to complete the content. Shipping mechanics also makes runs more predictable, because when a mechanic goes off there's always the chance someone dies. ZoS should remove ability to skip. Moonhunter punishes dps racers, which I like. Trials are where it matters though

ankeor · August 2018

Raudgrani wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

You can easily pass them on a group on around 20k dps, easily. That's how the game was when that dungeon dropped ffs...

The key word here is "easily". You can manupilate the conversation with that one word.

No. It's not easy with 8 dd's who have 20k dps on a dummy parse. And it never was. More the fight lasts more adds spawn. And when it comes to a point those with 20k solo parse can't kill adds with their aoe's only, the fight itself becomes even longer. The longer fight means you have more room to do mistakes.

And for those who say "Only thing they do is to stay still and beat a dummy mindlessly and they get 50k dps. That's not representetive." Well, people who can't take care of themself in a raid and yet have 45-55k dps (depends on class) are like shiny pokemons. I haven't seen one yet.

Kuramas9tails · August 2018

DPS tests are great on an individual level to practice and air-tight your rotation but it shouldn't dictate if you are good enough to do a trial or not (to an extent).

For trials and dunegons, it's more than the DPS, it's survivability. Someone with high damage who dies is a DPS loss as opposed to someone who has less DPS but doesn't die. Not only is the death a DPS loss but it is another DPS loss if another DPS picks them up or a chain reaction where a healer tried to res them and another DPS dies without the healing. Survivability and mechanic knowledge is key too.

Some groups mix well and others it's like oil and water.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2018

The meta is like the compass, you can't betray it or you will be making bad Disney movies.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · August 2018

Simple thing zos need to do is have mechanics that can't be skipped at a certain % of the adds and bosses life, so going to quick will result in a wipe, maybe also when adds appear make boss have a big shield, what zos need to do is force us to do mechanics and if not punish the group with a big de-buff or something

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

It doesnt look like you want to change your mind tho, it looks like you just want an affirmation.
In this situation it's better to join another guild with lower dps requirements because it doesnt look like you guys have the same goals. There's nothing wrong with that, but this is a fight you cannot win: everyone has the right the spend their free time as they want, and you cannot force them to lower their trial ambitions because of you.
If you feel like its unfair, you can always start a fair group. Who knows, maybe that would change your opinion on dps requirements.

Inarre · August 2018

frozzzen101 wrote: »

This "if people were beating it with 25k, it just shows how flawed the “you need 30k” argument is" is such utter nonsense.
My progression group had 35k avg dps without relequen/siroria nonsense and without LA buff and it was still barely enough to clear vMoL in the end.

The reason your group had trouble and the reason why it is not complete nonsense to require higher than needed dps is because mechanics.

Show me someone other than in top raid guilds who can keep their highest dps going while they are dodging negates, shielding, looking at auras, running around the room, burn adds that didn't die to cleave and trying to attack the boss on the opposite side of the room as it runs over. You can't. Generally people expect a little more dps on parses than they anticipate is needed in trials due to this.

DPShiro · August 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

I am not sure how useful is a test on a dummy when:
You use sets you don't use in trials.

You slot skills you don't use in trials.

You use mondus stones you don't use in trials.

The dummy does not do anything.

You have someone buffing you.

You have someone debuffing the dummy.

Flawless Conqueror tells way more than the dummy does.

The above is called cheeseing, and not a proper solo tests.