Bleeds Are Overpowered

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2018

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

ak_pvp wrote: »

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

Yes, everything should have it's downsides. Downside of bleeds is that it takes a lot of time to apply and roll out fully, it's no instant burst. Is the tooltip too high? This is up for debate, sure. Therefore on your third paragraph: fair enough.

I meant Rock/Paper/Scissor not in the "If I run X, you Y = garantueed victroy for Y" kind of sense, but rather X has issues with Y but nothing that a skill gap couldn't even out/ overcome. The opposite of "let everything be the same with different animations" kind of thinking. I see a lot of people itt that don't struggle as much as others against bleeds.

But however, for your sentiment "you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff" you could also say that in comparison it's more effective against people that invested into armor resistance bc they didn't invest that stats somewhere else (like in healing potential or dmg), while bleeds don't suddenly get stronger against glass canons who are more dangerous to me. However you can look at that from the other way as well and ask if dmg/ healing proc sets should have lower tooltips when used on tank builds. Should they?

HankTwo · August 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

Who are 'you people'. There are as many opinions on the forums as there are persons.

The argument that convinced me that both passive bleeds shouldn't stack was that the other weapon bonuses can't stack at all. If you run both dual wield swords + a 2h sword do you get 10% increase in damage done? How about maces? The problem with the dual wield passive is that since its a DOT you can get both passives at the same time, basically doubling the effectiveness.

Sanctum74 · August 2018

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Counter to bleeds. Plenty of options.

1. DK and Warden - Outheal and sustain through it.

2. Templar - Press one button and cleanse all dots.

3. Nightblade - Press one button and cloak to surpress all dots.

3. Sorceror - Press one button and shield through all dots.

4. Innate class design. Try applying dots on players that can run around fast as cheetahs, or can streak, or can cloak, or can pop major expedition from a class skill, or can sit in your house and mitigate half all incoming damage.

1. Having major mending and a few hots doesn't save you from 3 bleeds, defile and proc sets melting you down.

2. Press one button over and over again untill you run out of resources you mean. Bleeds are basically free, cleanse is not.

3. Sure nb is decent against bleeds but it's also nb that benefits from them most, yes even more than stamplar imo

4. Even though bleeds don't ignore shields like oblivion dmg they will still rip them apart. The easiest time I had with sorcs is when I used bleeds and that was without master axes, the pressure was too much for even shield spammers to survive.

5. Running around fast doesn't do anything, you need to get close to land hits too so they can apply bleeds then. And no normal build is tanky enough to survive a full dot/bleed pressure build. I'm not saying all bleed builds win because they don't but when you meet one using 2 proc sets, 3 bleeds and defile you can't survive, you can't counter pressure, your just dead.

1) no but having enough impen reduces the DMG so you can run enough hots to counter (see my comment showing the equation above). Vigor alone accounts for a 1k heal ever second versus bleed's 980-1600 every two seconds.

2) Templars purge strength is to remove healing/penetration debuffs, not bleeds. Using a snare/immobilze immunity is important to extend the function of purge's strength to allow you a greater chance to take off a bleed or two.

3) that's because nightblades have escape, Regen, burst and defenses. So they can run bleeds with 2 DMG sets and feel better than a stamplar that has to play with terrible Regen to do basically the same thing. #nightbladeprivledge

4) shields/big heals handle big burst. Hots counter dots. Always been that mechanic.

5) proc sets are the issue, and defile got changed so that's no really an issue. Proc sets should cost resorces when they are cast in my opinion. Free DMG should be really tiny or cost 2-3k per proc for the DMG they deal now.

1.Vigor is great yes but like I said before. I run vigor, forward momentum, crit surge, troll king with around 4k hp recovery, healing poisons, lingering pots and using minor maim. that is a lot of healing, and reducing enemy dmg by 15% Yet I have been killed by some bleed builds in a few seconds. I have beated many bleed builds too of course but when they add proc sets and defile with it then it's to much pressure.

2. I was just replying to say that purge isn't a counter to bleeds. You can't just keep spamming purge every 2 seconds.

3. yeah, them getting 28% extra dmg and major defile from their class is really deadly with bleeds. Bleeds are actually a lot less noticable on other classes. I can usually survive a bleed build with my large amount of hots but nb bleed builds just do so much dmg.

4. I know, I was replying to the other post to say that you can't just shield through all bleeds. 3 bleeds up and being spammed is way too much pressure to shield though.

5. Yeah proc sets are a little much. In no cp ( I don't play cp pvp) they hit quite hard and when used with bleeds/defile it can be very hard to outheal it. I still think defile is an issue though. Shorter duration doesn't really change much. Defile only needs to be applied when your under pressure the most.

If you are running all the things listed in #1 then it is mathematically impossible to die to bleeds in a few seconds.

I'll never understand why people pick random things from their recap and ask for nerfs all the while ignoring all the other abilities that actually killed them.

DKsUnite · August 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

Lotta misconceptions being thrown around here. Literally the only thing that seperates bleed damage from any other dot is the fact that it ignores physical resistance. That’s it. FYI, all dots go through block.

And just once again, good players don’t drop dead without a competitive fight against bleed specs on any class. Some people are making it out to be this overwhelming, impossible to compete against mechanic. And I’m just saying that isn’t my experience playing with or against bleeds at all.

As someone who has over 31k physical resist (46%~ reduction) because I want to reduce damage by as much as possible, my 31k being negated is tough especially when 2-3 bleeds are stacked. Speaking from a mDK perspective, with how much root immunity there is these days on stam classes, power lash can only heal me every 7 seconds (CC immunity timer (and dont forget immov pots)). Embers can't outheal bleed damage (if you were using it every 2 seconds to try get some heals). Health regen can't do it unless you run TK (not really optimal on a mDK) and even then it's tough. CInder storm doesn't heal for anything. Cauterize is a burst heal for around 3k non crit, enough to stop a second or two of bleeding. Coag is your big heal but can't be spammed.

I would tend to agree that this is a DK issue and not a general game issue because DK is still left in the old meta of stand your ground. And to be fair Arya, I know you to only play stamplar (purge bleeds), magsorc (shield bleeds) and stam sorc (although i haven't seen you play it for a while) (which can create distance like no one else which stops the incoming additional pressure) so saying that it's a skill issue isn't fair.

montiferus · August 2018

DKsUnite wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Lotta misconceptions being thrown around here. Literally the only thing that seperates bleed damage from any other dot is the fact that it ignores physical resistance. That’s it. FYI, all dots go through block.

And just once again, good players don’t drop dead without a competitive fight against bleed specs on any class. Some people are making it out to be this overwhelming, impossible to compete against mechanic. And I’m just saying that isn’t my experience playing with or against bleeds at all.

As someone who has over 31k physical resist (46%~ reduction) because I want to reduce damage by as much as possible, my 31k being negated is tough especially when 2-3 bleeds are stacked. Speaking from a mDK perspective, with how much root immunity there is these days on stam classes, power lash can only heal me every 7 seconds (CC immunity timer (and dont forget immov pots)). Embers can't outheal bleed damage (if you were using it every 2 seconds to try get some heals). Health regen can't do it unless you run TK (not really optimal on a mDK) and even then it's tough. CInder storm doesn't heal for anything. Cauterize is a burst heal for around 3k non crit, enough to stop a second or two of bleeding. Coag is your big heal but can't be spammed.

I would tend to agree that this is a DK issue and not a general game issue because DK is still left in the old meta of stand your ground. And to be fair Arya, I know you to only play stamplar (purge bleeds), magsorc (shield bleeds) and stam sorc (although i haven't seen you play it for a while) (which can create distance like no one else which stops the incoming additional pressure) so saying that it's a skill issue isn't fair.

I see in your build videos you run SnB and Destro. If you switched to Resto couldn't you ward up or HOT to help mitigate bleeds?

I am not disagreeing with you but at the end of the day when you make a build typically you have to make some sacrifice somewhere. There is no build/class that is perfect at everything. For MagDK perhaps bleeds are more of an issue than other classes but I have a hard time believing the people QQing in this thread are all MagDKs. And if bleeds are a weak point perhaps changing the build accordingly to combat that is more of a solution than asking for a nerf.

As far as "root immunity" for stam I couldn't disagree more. Half of my time in Cyrodiil is being snared/rooted/immobilized.

Crixus8000 · August 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Counter to bleeds. Plenty of options.

1. DK and Warden - Outheal and sustain through it.

2. Templar - Press one button and cleanse all dots.

3. Nightblade - Press one button and cloak to surpress all dots.

3. Sorceror - Press one button and shield through all dots.

4. Innate class design. Try applying dots on players that can run around fast as cheetahs, or can streak, or can cloak, or can pop major expedition from a class skill, or can sit in your house and mitigate half all incoming damage.

1. Having major mending and a few hots doesn't save you from 3 bleeds, defile and proc sets melting you down.

2. Press one button over and over again untill you run out of resources you mean. Bleeds are basically free, cleanse is not.

3. Sure nb is decent against bleeds but it's also nb that benefits from them most, yes even more than stamplar imo

4. Even though bleeds don't ignore shields like oblivion dmg they will still rip them apart. The easiest time I had with sorcs is when I used bleeds and that was without master axes, the pressure was too much for even shield spammers to survive.

5. Running around fast doesn't do anything, you need to get close to land hits too so they can apply bleeds then. And no normal build is tanky enough to survive a full dot/bleed pressure build. I'm not saying all bleed builds win because they don't but when you meet one using 2 proc sets, 3 bleeds and defile you can't survive, you can't counter pressure, your just dead.

1) no but having enough impen reduces the DMG so you can run enough hots to counter (see my comment showing the equation above). Vigor alone accounts for a 1k heal ever second versus bleed's 980-1600 every two seconds.

2) Templars purge strength is to remove healing/penetration debuffs, not bleeds. Using a snare/immobilze immunity is important to extend the function of purge's strength to allow you a greater chance to take off a bleed or two.

3) that's because nightblades have escape, Regen, burst and defenses. So they can run bleeds with 2 DMG sets and feel better than a stamplar that has to play with terrible Regen to do basically the same thing. #nightbladeprivledge

4) shields/big heals handle big burst. Hots counter dots. Always been that mechanic.

5) proc sets are the issue, and defile got changed so that's no really an issue. Proc sets should cost resorces when they are cast in my opinion. Free DMG should be really tiny or cost 2-3k per proc for the DMG they deal now.

1.Vigor is great yes but like I said before. I run vigor, forward momentum, crit surge, troll king with around 4k hp recovery, healing poisons, lingering pots and using minor maim. that is a lot of healing, and reducing enemy dmg by 15% Yet I have been killed by some bleed builds in a few seconds. I have beated many bleed builds too of course but when they add proc sets and defile with it then it's to much pressure.

2. I was just replying to say that purge isn't a counter to bleeds. You can't just keep spamming purge every 2 seconds.

3. yeah, them getting 28% extra dmg and major defile from their class is really deadly with bleeds. Bleeds are actually a lot less noticable on other classes. I can usually survive a bleed build with my large amount of hots but nb bleed builds just do so much dmg.

4. I know, I was replying to the other post to say that you can't just shield through all bleeds. 3 bleeds up and being spammed is way too much pressure to shield though.

5. Yeah proc sets are a little much. In no cp ( I don't play cp pvp) they hit quite hard and when used with bleeds/defile it can be very hard to outheal it. I still think defile is an issue though. Shorter duration doesn't really change much. Defile only needs to be applied when your under pressure the most.

If you are running all the things listed in #1 then it is mathematically impossible to die to bleeds in a few seconds.

I'll never understand why people pick random things from their recap and ask for nerfs all the while ignoring all the other abilities that actually killed them.

I will never understand why people make assumptions. I wasn't just looking at my recap.

3 bleeds, major defile and 2 proc sets like viper, sloads, savage werewolf ect and them spamming an ability is insane amounts of damage. I can clearly see what is happening in combat and yes I have died in a very short amount of time to a few of these builds even with the very high survivability of my build. Turtling up doesn't work, you cannot defend from that, and yeah people can say go offensive, tried that a few times too, didn't have much luck using slow dizzy swing when im taking enough dmg to kill me in around 3 seconds.

Savos_Saren · August 2018

The fastest way to get the whole ESO community to agree that bleeds are OP:

Make a magicka-version of bleeds (ignore all spell resistances). Suddenly, all these stamina-builds will be blowing up the forums about unfair advantages that magic-based builds have. And how no damage should ignore all spell resistances.

It's the exact same thing when Sloads was in full effect. EVERYONE could take advantage of Sload builds. It wasn't limited to one resource pool (stam or mag).

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

Who are 'you people'. There are as many opinions on the forums as there are persons.

The argument that convinced me that both passive bleeds shouldn't stack was that the other weapon bonuses can't stack at all. If you run both dual wield swords + a 2h sword do you get 10% increase in damage done? How about maces? The problem with the dual wield passive is that since its a DOT you can get both passives at the same time, basically doubling the effectiveness.

Valid point

Lichbourne90 · August 2018

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

Savos_Saren · August 2018

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

My plan would be to even the playing field. Introduce magicka-based bleeds into the game. A bleed build can literally run Master's DW, Master's 2H (ignores physical resist) and Sloads (completely umitigated damage). You CANNOT outheal it and for some classes (DK and Sorcs) our only option is to Purge it with the Alliance war skill. (which also happens to be one of the most expensive skills in the game)

So, allow all classes to bleed (physical or spell damage) and see how quickly ZOS gets rid of that garbage. Because it is, undeniably, an unfair advantage toward stamina-based builds.

Especially since, those that argue bleeds are NOT OP, they would instantly flip *** if there was magic bleeds being applied to them.

ak_pvp · August 2018

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

I'd make them a bit stronger, but stop them ignoring resistances. If you can't kill a tank with normal dots, unblockable burst, AoEs and unblockable CCs its either:
1) A massive l2p issue.
2) The tank is tanky enough has literally no damage so can be ignored

If 1, well... the answer is obvious. If 2, the tank already can deal with the bleeds.
Mitigation based survivability is pathetic unless you go for potato damage since it has so much counters and sacrifices. The game is now almost entirely mobility based, Stand your ground heavily needs a buff.

Lichbourne90 · August 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

My plan would be to even the playing field. Introduce magicka-based bleeds into the game. A bleed build can literally run Master's DW, Master's 2H (ignores physical resist) and Sloads (completely umitigated damage). You CANNOT outheal it and for some classes (DK and Sorcs) our only option is to Purge it with the Alliance war skill. (which also happens to be one of the most expensive skills in the game)

So, allow all classes to bleed (physical or spell damage) and see how quickly ZOS gets rid of that garbage. Because it is, undeniably, an unfair advantage toward stamina-based builds.

Especially since, those that argue bleeds are NOT OP, they would instantly flip *** if there was magic bleeds being applied to them.

I run bleeds on some of my builds and certainly would not flip *** if magicka could do the same. It's an interesting concept.
Edit: that may also introduce some very cool builds as well i.e. dw magblade

Lichbourne90 · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

I'd make them a bit stronger, but stop them ignoring resistances. If you can't kill a tank with normal dots, unblockable burst, AoEs and unblockable CCs its either:
1) A massive l2p issue.
2) The tank is tanky enough has literally no damage so can be ignored

If 1, well... the answer is obvious. If 2, the tank already can deal with the bleeds.
Mitigation based survivability is pathetic unless you go for potato damage since it has so much counters and sacrifices. The game is now almost entirely mobility based, Stand your ground heavily needs a buff.

One of my toons is a fairly high damage perma block magdk. Its rejoicing the sloads duroks meta is over, but is easily kept in check by GOOD players with bleeds so yes I agree with the L2P issue

montiferus · August 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

My plan would be to even the playing field. Introduce magicka-based bleeds into the game. A bleed build can literally run Master's DW, Master's 2H (ignores physical resist) and Sloads (completely umitigated damage). You CANNOT outheal it and for some classes (DK and Sorcs) our only option is to Purge it with the Alliance war skill. (which also happens to be one of the most expensive skills in the game)

So, allow all classes to bleed (physical or spell damage) and see how quickly ZOS gets rid of that garbage. Because it is, undeniably, an unfair advantage toward stamina-based builds.

Especially since, those that argue bleeds are NOT OP, they would instantly flip *** if there was magic bleeds being applied to them.

So in this scenario will stamina based builds have access to shields?

Also will these Magicka based bleeds require you to be in melee range? Also will they then force you to forfeit the current ancient knowledge passives?

TBH if you are a sorc and you struggle with bleeds I have a hard time envisioning you being a competent player.

Crixus8000 · August 2018

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

It's not like bleeds are keeping tanks in check, bleeds melt everyone. And there is many ways to kill tanky players, other dots go through block as do some cc's. And damage is pretty high right now even without bleeds.

As for changing them though I would like them to not kill peoplle in a few seconds. Idk maybe make them no longer ignore resistance but gain a buff similar to how frost, lightning and fire dmg works.

Or make them harder to stack (because yes it's so easy to get 3 going) or be actually expensive to use so people can't just get insane levels of dmg without sacrificing any sustain or survibability like all other builds have to do.

Or if they are going to stay this strong, at least give some counter play other than being a heal bot. Burst dmg you can block, dodge ect, bleeds you can't do anything other than build for mega levels of tankiness and that doesn't require skill. Pvp already has enough free dmg and procs, it would be nice if you could use skill to avoid bleeds like you can other high dmg things in pvp.

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2018

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

Who are 'you people'. There are as many opinions on the forums as there are persons.

The argument that convinced me that both passive bleeds shouldn't stack was that the other weapon bonuses can't stack at all. If you run both dual wield swords + a 2h sword do you get 10% increase in damage done? How about maces? The problem with the dual wield passive is that since its a DOT you can get both passives at the same time, basically doubling the effectiveness.

"You people" as in "you people who demand that damage X should not stack with damage Y".

It just acts like dots do. If you hit someone with Poison Injection, PI will still tick if you switch to whatever other bar you have. If you then put a dot from the frontbar on one as well, both stack. Just because both passives are bleeds doesn't mean that we should ignore that they come from different sources. Reason why other passives don't carry over is because other passives aren't even compareable.

Or are they? What happens if I dodge roll on Bow and quickly switch to front? Does the major expedition of hasty retreat get cancelled? What happens if I stack up hawk eye, hit PI and switch to front, does it still boosts PI's dot?

HankTwo · August 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

Who are 'you people'. There are as many opinions on the forums as there are persons.

The argument that convinced me that both passive bleeds shouldn't stack was that the other weapon bonuses can't stack at all. If you run both dual wield swords + a 2h sword do you get 10% increase in damage done? How about maces? The problem with the dual wield passive is that since its a DOT you can get both passives at the same time, basically doubling the effectiveness.

"You people" as in "you people who demand that damage X should not stack with damage Y".

It just acts like dots do. If you hit someone with Poison Injection, PI will still tick if you switch to whatever other bar you have. If you then put a dot from the frontbar on one as well, both stack. Just because both passives are bleeds doesn't mean that we should ignore that they come from different sources. Reason why other passives don't carry over is because other passives aren't even compareable.

Or are they? What happens if I dodge roll on Bow and quickly switch to front? Does the major expedition of hasty retreat get cancelled? What happens if I stack up hawk eye, hit PI and switch to front, does it still boosts PI's dot?

If you want to discuss with me you can just address me directly and not some dubious group of people.

How are the passive bonuses from the exact same passive skill not comparable? I'm talking about 'Twin Blade and Blunt' and 'Heavy Weapons' (separately) and the bonuses they give to axes, swords and maces. It doesn't matter if something like bow passives can carry over, it has nothing to do with this. If it's the exact same passive skill, though? Hell yeah they should be comparable and balanced around each other.

Maybe it would be better to just give axes a percentage based buff to bleed damage as a passive (for twin slashes and cleave). But the way it is you just get strong free damage that's stackable.

Edit: Additionally, by reducing the amount of DOTs, purge could become somewhat of a reliable counter against those builds.

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2018

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

Who are 'you people'. There are as many opinions on the forums as there are persons.

The argument that convinced me that both passive bleeds shouldn't stack was that the other weapon bonuses can't stack at all. If you run both dual wield swords + a 2h sword do you get 10% increase in damage done? How about maces? The problem with the dual wield passive is that since its a DOT you can get both passives at the same time, basically doubling the effectiveness.

"You people" as in "you people who demand that damage X should not stack with damage Y".

It just acts like dots do. If you hit someone with Poison Injection, PI will still tick if you switch to whatever other bar you have. If you then put a dot from the frontbar on one as well, both stack. Just because both passives are bleeds doesn't mean that we should ignore that they come from different sources. Reason why other passives don't carry over is because other passives aren't even compareable.

Or are they? What happens if I dodge roll on Bow and quickly switch to front? Does the major expedition of hasty retreat get cancelled? What happens if I stack up hawk eye, hit PI and switch to front, does it still boosts PI's dot?

If you want to discuss with me you can just address me directly and not some dubious group of people.

How are the passive bonuses from the exact same passive skill not comparable? I'm talking about 'Twin Blade and Blunt' and 'Heavy Weapons' (separately) and the bonuses they give to axes, swords and maces. It doesn't matter if something like bow passives can carry over, it has nothing to do with this. If it's the exact same passive skill, though? Hell yeah they should be comparable and balanced around each other. Maybe it would be better to just give axes a percentage based buff to bleed damage as a passive (for twin slashes and cleave). But the way it is you just get strong free damage that's stackable.

Right, stackable like every other damage that comes from different sources.

E: how high should that % boost be? 20%? More? I mean it must make up for the overall skil line damage increase of swords.

HankTwo · August 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

Who are 'you people'. There are as many opinions on the forums as there are persons.

The argument that convinced me that both passive bleeds shouldn't stack was that the other weapon bonuses can't stack at all. If you run both dual wield swords + a 2h sword do you get 10% increase in damage done? How about maces? The problem with the dual wield passive is that since its a DOT you can get both passives at the same time, basically doubling the effectiveness.

"You people" as in "you people who demand that damage X should not stack with damage Y".

It just acts like dots do. If you hit someone with Poison Injection, PI will still tick if you switch to whatever other bar you have. If you then put a dot from the frontbar on one as well, both stack. Just because both passives are bleeds doesn't mean that we should ignore that they come from different sources. Reason why other passives don't carry over is because other passives aren't even compareable.

Or are they? What happens if I dodge roll on Bow and quickly switch to front? Does the major expedition of hasty retreat get cancelled? What happens if I stack up hawk eye, hit PI and switch to front, does it still boosts PI's dot?

If you want to discuss with me you can just address me directly and not some dubious group of people.

How are the passive bonuses from the exact same passive skill not comparable? I'm talking about 'Twin Blade and Blunt' and 'Heavy Weapons' (separately) and the bonuses they give to axes, swords and maces. It doesn't matter if something like bow passives can carry over, it has nothing to do with this. If it's the exact same passive skill, though? Hell yeah they should be comparable and balanced around each other. Maybe it would be better to just give axes a percentage based buff to bleed damage as a passive (for twin slashes and cleave). But the way it is you just get strong free damage that's stackable.

Right, stackable like everything else that comes from different sources.

So:

a) Why do swords and maces give bonuses that aren't stackable, while the source of these bonuses is the exact same passive as for axes?

b) Why are swords so much weaker than axes for bleed builds, even when they don't run sets like Blooddrinker? Shouldn't the strength of these bonuses be comparable because they have the same source?

Edit: Well, 20% also came to my mind. But I haven't done any calculations yet so I can't say what I think would be balanced.

The_Camper · August 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

The fastest way to get the whole ESO community to agree that bleeds are OP:

Make a magicka-version of bleeds (ignore all spell resistances).

So how are they gonna make me bleed? Hitting me with their Staves?

IZZEFlameLash · August 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

The fastest way to get the whole ESO community to agree that bleeds are OP:

Make a magicka-version of bleeds (ignore all spell resistances).

So how are they gonna make me bleed? Hitting me with their Staves?

How would you mitigate magic with your body though in real life? And staves hitting you will probably cause internal bleeding a lot better than axes do against someone heavily armored too.

Thunderknuckles · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

I don't think you know what you are talking about, or in your words, understand the fundamentals of the game.

"Bleeds aren't that stronk on deeps so they must be weak huh" No. Bleeds go through all resist stat, On DPS tests you are usually fully pen'd anyway. You aren't in PvP, and most people have more resists than a dummy, so comparitively bleeds are a lot stronger.
What are you on about rapid regen/mutagen, do you run in a zerg with healers protecting you, because wew lad. Yes, shields work against bleeds. But not much else.

By yourself you simply cannot outheal bleeds without going full potato damage. Master bleeds do 1.2k dps. Twin blade and heavy weapons bleeds about 1k each. Then other constant DPS, can't outheal, can't kill them easily if they have a brain, and can't resist it without purging.

Its broken.

Have to agree there. Sometimes people will tell me to slot Purge on my StamDK to counter those 2.5K bleed damage ticks. "Eez, bro. Just use Purge. lerl Wut l2p". Well, as you know, a STAM DK might have 10 or 11K magicka tops. Purge costs at least 6 or 7K magicka with morph, so one use and your magicka bar is all but empty. Oh, and the moment you purge it...they re-apply the DoT. Purge is useless unless you're a magicka build.

IZZEFlameLash · August 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

My plan would be to even the playing field. Introduce magicka-based bleeds into the game. A bleed build can literally run Master's DW, Master's 2H (ignores physical resist) and Sloads (completely umitigated damage). You CANNOT outheal it and for some classes (DK and Sorcs) our only option is to Purge it with the Alliance war skill. (which also happens to be one of the most expensive skills in the game)

So, allow all classes to bleed (physical or spell damage) and see how quickly ZOS gets rid of that garbage. Because it is, undeniably, an unfair advantage toward stamina-based builds.

Especially since, those that argue bleeds are NOT OP, they would instantly flip *** if there was magic bleeds being applied to them.

I agree. This would be a quick way for people to realize how fast they can drop against damages that mitigates a part of your defense. Then probably they will only call for nerf to magicka version of bleeds.

DKsUnite wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Lotta misconceptions being thrown around here. Literally the only thing that seperates bleed damage from any other dot is the fact that it ignores physical resistance. That’s it. FYI, all dots go through block.

And just once again, good players don’t drop dead without a competitive fight against bleed specs on any class. Some people are making it out to be this overwhelming, impossible to compete against mechanic. And I’m just saying that isn’t my experience playing with or against bleeds at all.

As someone who has over 31k physical resist (46%~ reduction) because I want to reduce damage by as much as possible, my 31k being negated is tough especially when 2-3 bleeds are stacked. Speaking from a mDK perspective, with how much root immunity there is these days on stam classes, power lash can only heal me every 7 seconds (CC immunity timer (and dont forget immov pots)). Embers can't outheal bleed damage (if you were using it every 2 seconds to try get some heals). Health regen can't do it unless you run TK (not really optimal on a mDK) and even then it's tough. CInder storm doesn't heal for anything. Cauterize is a burst heal for around 3k non crit, enough to stop a second or two of bleeding. Coag is your big heal but can't be spammed.

I would tend to agree that this is a DK issue and not a general game issue because DK is still left in the old meta of stand your ground. And to be fair Arya, I know you to only play stamplar (purge bleeds), magsorc (shield bleeds) and stam sorc (although i haven't seen you play it for a while) (which can create distance like no one else which stops the incoming additional pressure) so saying that it's a skill issue isn't fair.

As a mDK main, I agree. Especially with lag that doesn't really allow you to bar swap, this becomes too much to handle. As if getting left unchanged for the dynamic ultgen meta without dynamic ult wasn't bad enough.

montiferus wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Lotta misconceptions being thrown around here. Literally the only thing that seperates bleed damage from any other dot is the fact that it ignores physical resistance. That’s it. FYI, all dots go through block.

And just once again, good players don’t drop dead without a competitive fight against bleed specs on any class. Some people are making it out to be this overwhelming, impossible to compete against mechanic. And I’m just saying that isn’t my experience playing with or against bleeds at all.

As someone who has over 31k physical resist (46%~ reduction) because I want to reduce damage by as much as possible, my 31k being negated is tough especially when 2-3 bleeds are stacked. Speaking from a mDK perspective, with how much root immunity there is these days on stam classes, power lash can only heal me every 7 seconds (CC immunity timer (and dont forget immov pots)). Embers can't outheal bleed damage (if you were using it every 2 seconds to try get some heals). Health regen can't do it unless you run TK (not really optimal on a mDK) and even then it's tough. CInder storm doesn't heal for anything. Cauterize is a burst heal for around 3k non crit, enough to stop a second or two of bleeding. Coag is your big heal but can't be spammed.

I would tend to agree that this is a DK issue and not a general game issue because DK is still left in the old meta of stand your ground. And to be fair Arya, I know you to only play stamplar (purge bleeds), magsorc (shield bleeds) and stam sorc (although i haven't seen you play it for a while) (which can create distance like no one else which stops the incoming additional pressure) so saying that it's a skill issue isn't fair.

I see in your build videos you run SnB and Destro. If you switched to Resto couldn't you ward up or HOT to help mitigate bleeds?

I am not disagreeing with you but at the end of the day when you make a build typically you have to make some sacrifice somewhere. There is no build/class that is perfect at everything. For MagDK perhaps bleeds are more of an issue than other classes but I have a hard time believing the people QQing in this thread are all MagDKs. And if bleeds are a weak point perhaps changing the build accordingly to combat that is more of a solution than asking for a nerf.

As far as "root immunity" for stam I couldn't disagree more. Half of my time in Cyrodiil is being snared/rooted/immobilized.

And what does bleed build sacrifice? Damage? No. Speed? No. Any form of defense? No. Last I checked, they still can build to be tanky and can roll. And why defend bleed if you can build accordingly to combat changes yourself? As far as snare/rooted/immobilize, you won't like playing a DK then, as most of our times are spent snared, rooted and immobilized since mDKs only get 2.5 seconds of immunity from such things compared to 7~8 seconds.

Savos_Saren · August 2018

montiferus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

This has been one long @$$ argument about whether bleeds have been OP or not (they aren't btw), but lets try something different..... how would u "fix em?" You cant make em not stack because if you do then running dual wield in anything other than 1vX will be pointless. Entirely negated. And if you change them to where they dont ignore resistances then that along with the defile nerf will welcome back the super tank meta with open arms. So what's your plan???

My plan would be to even the playing field. Introduce magicka-based bleeds into the game. A bleed build can literally run Master's DW, Master's 2H (ignores physical resist) and Sloads (completely umitigated damage). You CANNOT outheal it and for some classes (DK and Sorcs) our only option is to Purge it with the Alliance war skill. (which also happens to be one of the most expensive skills in the game)

So, allow all classes to bleed (physical or spell damage) and see how quickly ZOS gets rid of that garbage. Because it is, undeniably, an unfair advantage toward stamina-based builds.

Especially since, those that argue bleeds are NOT OP, they would instantly flip *** if there was magic bleeds being applied to them.

So in this scenario will stamina based builds have access to shields?

Also will these Magicka based bleeds require you to be in melee range? Also will they then force you to forfeit the current ancient knowledge passives?

TBH if you are a sorc and you struggle with bleeds I have a hard time envisioning you being a competent player.

You do have access to shields as a stamina class. Bone Shield, Brawler, Shield Wall, Defensive Posture, Reinforced (CP passive) not to mention any number of class based shields.

Sure! I'd love melee ranged bleeds! Because...

...I'm a MagDK. Not a Sorc.

CyrusArya · August 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

If we look at it this way then oblivion dmg is also balanced against shields cause the only difference between that and other types of dmg is that oblivion dmg just goes through shields. I mean, shields have no resistances and cant be critted so no difference there. If anything oblivion dmg should be "weaker" considering that dmg wise can be lower than other dots, abilities, sets or whatever. So it should be balanced right? Noooot. Unfortunately thats how our combat lead thinks which is precisely the reason why we have crap like that in the first place. PVP isnt as black and white as we make it out to be.

But considering that you are mostly playing a class which is literally only relevant because of bleeds and a class which has the only "reliable" way of fighting against them, i would understand why you think they are balanced.

That is a terrible argument logically. The point of shields is to completely absorb damage in totality. Oblivion damage by passes this mechanic completely. Resistance isn’t meant to nullify damage, it is just meant to diminish its potency. Shields and resist are not parallels, ergo bleeds and oblivion damage are not parallels in countering them either. In fact, resistance isn’t even a “mechanic” it’s a stat. That’s why these arguments about bleeds having no counterplay or by passing mechanics are faulty.

Bleeds are literally just dots that bypass resistance. They are mechanically no different from any other dot, and you counterplay them the way you counterplay any pressure build. If bleeds have no counterplay, than neither do DKs from a mechanics stand point. In reality, both do. But you’re right, my class is only relevant because of bleeds. So as I’ve been saying, buff stamplar and sure you can nerf bleeds.

DKsUnite wrote: »

I would tend to agree that this is a DK issue and not a general game issue because DK is still left in the old meta of stand your ground. And to be fair Arya, I know you to only play stamplar (purge bleeds), magsorc (shield bleeds) and stam sorc (although i haven't seen you play it for a while) (which can create distance like no one else which stops the incoming additional pressure) so saying that it's a skill issue isn't fair.

Obviously my post wasnt intended to you or players at your level Leo. My post was mostly addressed to ppl saying bleeds are impossible to beat and overwhelming vs all builds. The ones saying or implying they hopelessly die in seconds flat. Especially the mag sorcs in here. Definitely not true. In fact any class with a damage shield can easily deal with bleeds, which is really how I would answer your arguement. If you elect to play a DK with no damage shields, and only blocking, you have to accept that there are pros and cons to that build choice. While you are weak to bleeds, you have a strong advantage against most direct damage playstyles. A dizzy swing build will never kill a proper block dk for example. Permablock and block casting are no weaker as mechanics than bleeds are. So you’re right, it is a dk issue. But more specifically, a magicka dk without damage shields issue. If they just outright deleted bleeds, I guarantee block builds and DKs in particular would become a major problem in PvP.

For the record, destro/resto mag dk is in a great place and one of my toughest fights on both sorc and stamplar. You have to look at the overall picture. Dual wield stam builds are solid, sure. But without it I don’t find stamina to be very compelling offensively in direct head to head comparisons with fire staff builds, especially 1v1.

Savos_Saren · August 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

If we look at it this way then oblivion dmg is also balanced against shields cause the only difference between that and other types of dmg is that oblivion dmg just goes through shields. I mean, shields have no resistances and cant be critted so no difference there. If anything oblivion dmg should be "weaker" considering that dmg wise can be lower than other dots, abilities, sets or whatever. So it should be balanced right? Noooot. Unfortunately thats how our combat lead thinks which is precisely the reason why we have crap like that in the first place. PVP isnt as black and white as we make it out to be.

But considering that you are mostly playing a class which is literally only relevant because of bleeds and a class which has the only "reliable" way of fighting against them, i would understand why you think they are balanced.

That is a terrible argument logically. The point of shields is to completely absorb damage in totality. Oblivion damage by passes this mechanic completely. Resistance isn’t meant to nullify damage, it is just meant to diminish its potency. Shields and resist are not parallels, ergo bleeds and oblivion damage are not parallels in countering them either. In fact, resistance isn’t even a “mechanic” it’s a stat. That’s why these arguments about bleeds having no counterplay or by passing mechanics are faulty.

Bleeds are literally just dots that bypass resistance. They are mechanically no different from any other dot, and you counterplay them the way you counterplay any pressure build. If bleeds have no counterplay, than neither do DKs from a mechanics stand point. In reality, both do. But you’re right, my class is only relevant because of bleeds. So as I’ve been saying, buff stamplar and sure you can nerf bleeds.

DKsUnite wrote: »

I would tend to agree that this is a DK issue and not a general game issue because DK is still left in the old meta of stand your ground. And to be fair Arya, I know you to only play stamplar (purge bleeds), magsorc (shield bleeds) and stam sorc (although i haven't seen you play it for a while) (which can create distance like no one else which stops the incoming additional pressure) so saying that it's a skill issue isn't fair.

Obviously my post wasnt intended to you or players at your level Leo. My post was mostly addressed to ppl saying bleeds are impossible to beat and overwhelming vs all builds. The ones saying or implying they hopelessly die in seconds flat. Especially the mag sorcs in here. Definitely not true. In fact any class with a damage shield can easily deal with bleeds, which is really how I would answer your arguement. If you elect to play a DK with no damage shields, and only blocking, you have to accept that there are pros and cons to that build choice. While you are weak to bleeds, you have a strong advantage against most direct damage playstyles. A dizzy swing build will never kill a proper block dk for example. Permablock and block casting are no weaker as mechanics than bleeds are. So you’re right, it is a dk issue. But more specifically, a magicka dk without damage shields issue. If they just outright deleted bleeds, I guarantee block builds and DKs in particular would become a major problem in PvP.

For the record, destro/resto mag dk is in a great place and one of my toughest fights on both sorc and stamplar. You have to look at the overall picture. Dual wield stam builds are solid, sure. But without it I don’t find stamina to be very compelling offensively in direct head to head comparisons with fire staff builds, especially 1v1.

I mean- if we consider that magDK block builds are melee ranged and SnB based- then why not convert Burning Embers into an ability that ignores all spell resistance? That way- it's fair n' square, right?

LeifErickson · August 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

If we look at it this way then oblivion dmg is also balanced against shields cause the only difference between that and other types of dmg is that oblivion dmg just goes through shields. I mean, shields have no resistances and cant be critted so no difference there. If anything oblivion dmg should be "weaker" considering that dmg wise can be lower than other dots, abilities, sets or whatever. So it should be balanced right? Noooot. Unfortunately thats how our combat lead thinks which is precisely the reason why we have crap like that in the first place. PVP isnt as black and white as we make it out to be.

But considering that you are mostly playing a class which is literally only relevant because of bleeds and a class which has the only "reliable" way of fighting against them, i would understand why you think they are balanced.

That is a terrible argument logically. The point of shields is to completely absorb damage in totality. Oblivion damage by passes this mechanic completely. Resistance isn’t meant to nullify damage, it is just meant to diminish its potency. Shields and resist are not parallels, ergo bleeds and oblivion damage are not parallels in countering them either. In fact, resistance isn’t even a “mechanic” it’s a stat. That’s why these arguments about bleeds having no counterplay or by passing mechanics are faulty.

Bleeds are literally just dots that bypass resistance. They are mechanically no different from any other dot, and you counterplay them the way you counterplay any pressure build. If bleeds have no counterplay, than neither do DKs from a mechanics stand point. In reality, both do. But you’re right, my class is only relevant because of bleeds. So as I’ve been saying, buff stamplar and sure you can nerf bleeds.

DKsUnite wrote: »

I would tend to agree that this is a DK issue and not a general game issue because DK is still left in the old meta of stand your ground. And to be fair Arya, I know you to only play stamplar (purge bleeds), magsorc (shield bleeds) and stam sorc (although i haven't seen you play it for a while) (which can create distance like no one else which stops the incoming additional pressure) so saying that it's a skill issue isn't fair.

Obviously my post wasnt intended to you or players at your level Leo. My post was mostly addressed to ppl saying bleeds are impossible to beat and overwhelming vs all builds. The ones saying or implying they hopelessly die in seconds flat. Especially the mag sorcs in here. Definitely not true. In fact any class with a damage shield can easily deal with bleeds, which is really how I would answer your arguement. If you elect to play a DK with no damage shields, and only blocking, you have to accept that there are pros and cons to that build choice. While you are weak to bleeds, you have a strong advantage against most direct damage playstyles. A dizzy swing build will never kill a proper block dk for example. Permablock and block casting are no weaker as mechanics than bleeds are. So you’re right, it is a dk issue. But more specifically, a magicka dk without damage shields issue. If they just outright deleted bleeds, I guarantee block builds and DKs in particular would become a major problem in PvP.

For the record, destro/resto mag dk is in a great place and one of my toughest fights on both sorc and stamplar. You have to look at the overall picture. Dual wield stam builds are solid, sure. But without it I don’t find stamina to be very compelling offensively in direct head to head comparisons with fire staff builds, especially 1v1.

I don't know how you say bleeds are easy to deal with on a magsorc. Even Red thinks they are overtuned because the pressure they put on shields is insane.

CyrusArya · August 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I mean- if we consider that magDK block builds are melee ranged and SnB based- then why not convert Burning Embers into an ability that ignores all spell resistance? That way- it's fair n' square, right?

You mean the skill that costs like 800 magicka and has a massive burst heal on it? No not really fair at all. Comparing apples to oranges. If you wanna let the burning dot status effect ignore resist, thats more reasonable. Sure. Or alternatively, give every stam class class dots in the way most every magicka class has. Cus you do realize bleeds exist in the first place to give stam builds dot damage right?

LeifErickson wrote: »

I don't know how you say bleeds are easy to deal with on a magsorc. Even Red thinks they are overtuned because the pressure they put on shields is insane.

Yeah the entire point of dual wield on stam is the pressure. It is high pressure, as it should be. As long as you can keep reapplying shields, bleeds are literally no different on a sorc than any other dot. Its only when they start ticking under the shields that its an issue. Keep in mind Red runs almost no impen, so of course they are insane on his build. I crit him for 3k last time we were dueling on a bleed tick. Generally, I dont really find the bleed damage to be overwhelming or that a fight is rendered noncompetitive because of it vs shield builds. Or any really. But I suppose that is 1v1. I can see bleeds being oppressive to certain specs when outnumbered. Like a bunch of other stuff in the game is.

Youve made this thread asking for nerfs, but havent suggested any. Instead of this cyclical back and forth, how bout some constructive suggestions? What do you think are appropriate nerfs that would make bleeds more manageable but still maintain their strength.

Heres one from me. I think it would be reasonable for the passive axe bleed procs to not crit. That alone would be a huge nerf to the damage.

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2018

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

Who are 'you people'. There are as many opinions on the forums as there are persons.

The argument that convinced me that both passive bleeds shouldn't stack was that the other weapon bonuses can't stack at all. If you run both dual wield swords + a 2h sword do you get 10% increase in damage done? How about maces? The problem with the dual wield passive is that since its a DOT you can get both passives at the same time, basically doubling the effectiveness.

"You people" as in "you people who demand that damage X should not stack with damage Y".

It just acts like dots do. If you hit someone with Poison Injection, PI will still tick if you switch to whatever other bar you have. If you then put a dot from the frontbar on one as well, both stack. Just because both passives are bleeds doesn't mean that we should ignore that they come from different sources. Reason why other passives don't carry over is because other passives aren't even compareable.

Or are they? What happens if I dodge roll on Bow and quickly switch to front? Does the major expedition of hasty retreat get cancelled? What happens if I stack up hawk eye, hit PI and switch to front, does it still boosts PI's dot?

If you want to discuss with me you can just address me directly and not some dubious group of people.

How are the passive bonuses from the exact same passive skill not comparable? I'm talking about 'Twin Blade and Blunt' and 'Heavy Weapons' (separately) and the bonuses they give to axes, swords and maces. It doesn't matter if something like bow passives can carry over, it has nothing to do with this. If it's the exact same passive skill, though? Hell yeah they should be comparable and balanced around each other. Maybe it would be better to just give axes a percentage based buff to bleed damage as a passive (for twin slashes and cleave). But the way it is you just get strong free damage that's stackable.

Right, stackable like everything else that comes from different sources.

So:

a) Why do swords and maces give bonuses that aren't stackable, while the source of these bonuses is the exact same passive as for axes?

b) Why are swords so much weaker than axes for bleed builds, even when they don't run sets like Blooddrinker? Shouldn't the strength of these bonuses be comparable because they have the same source?

Edit: Well, 20% also came to my mind. But I haven't done any calculations yet so I can't say what I think would be balanced.

a) What do you want to stack? Back bar + front bar effects? These don't stack because they are (for the lack of a better words) "current" effects, while the dot once applied is a "lasting" effect. Not really compareable if you ask me. Hence the former questions if hawk eye & hasty retreat, which are also "lasting effects" carry over.
But for what it's worth you can "stack" the boni of swords/ maces/ daggers when you mix them.

b) I see where you're heading. Why is X weaker than Y for Z? Are swords also weaker on burst builds than axes? Why is everyone preffering daggers over axes on crit/pve builds? But to answer your question, why the bleed-weapon is better on bleed builds than non-bleed weapons: because that's how it is designed. I already agreed a few postes ago than numbers in tooltips are always up to debate but the overall design idea is not, at least in my eyes.

E) Where would that lead: "already op" rending bleed + 20% passive + master weapon + 20% blooddrinker = next op thing? Well, at least people couldn't complain about free dmg instances then. Which is kind of ironic because it feels like most of the players in no cp/bg run at least one proc set.

Sharee · August 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maybe a good solution for bleeds would be:

1) Don't let the 2h and dual wield passive bleeds stack.

2) Make master dual wield increase the damage of the twin slashes bleed by a certain percentage (maybe something like 65%?). This would mean that the bonus gets stronger for very squishy glass cannon builds but weaker for tanky builds.

And when do you people come up with stuff like "don't let different sources of healing stack"? Or is this mantra reserved only for damage?

Who are 'you people'. There are as many opinions on the forums as there are persons.

The argument that convinced me that both passive bleeds shouldn't stack was that the other weapon bonuses can't stack at all. If you run both dual wield swords + a 2h sword do you get 10% increase in damage done? How about maces? The problem with the dual wield passive is that since its a DOT you can get both passives at the same time, basically doubling the effectiveness.

"You people" as in "you people who demand that damage X should not stack with damage Y".

It just acts like dots do. If you hit someone with Poison Injection, PI will still tick if you switch to whatever other bar you have. If you then put a dot from the frontbar on one as well, both stack. Just because both passives are bleeds doesn't mean that we should ignore that they come from different sources. Reason why other passives don't carry over is because other passives aren't even compareable.

Or are they? What happens if I dodge roll on Bow and quickly switch to front? Does the major expedition of hasty retreat get cancelled? What happens if I stack up hawk eye, hit PI and switch to front, does it still boosts PI's dot?

If you want to discuss with me you can just address me directly and not some dubious group of people.

How are the passive bonuses from the exact same passive skill not comparable? I'm talking about 'Twin Blade and Blunt' and 'Heavy Weapons' (separately) and the bonuses they give to axes, swords and maces. It doesn't matter if something like bow passives can carry over, it has nothing to do with this. If it's the exact same passive skill, though? Hell yeah they should be comparable and balanced around each other. Maybe it would be better to just give axes a percentage based buff to bleed damage as a passive (for twin slashes and cleave). But the way it is you just get strong free damage that's stackable.

Right, stackable like everything else that comes from different sources.

So:

a) Why do swords and maces give bonuses that aren't stackable, while the source of these bonuses is the exact same passive as for axes?

b) Why are swords so much weaker than axes for bleed builds, even when they don't run sets like Blooddrinker? Shouldn't the strength of these bonuses be comparable because they have the same source?

Edit: Well, 20% also came to my mind. But I haven't done any calculations yet so I can't say what I think would be balanced.

a) What do you want to stack? Back bar + front bar effects? These don't stack because they are (for the lack of a better words) "current" effects, while the dot once applied is a "lasting" effect. Not really compareable if you ask me. Hence the former questions if hawk eye & hasty retreat, which are also "lasting effects" carry over.
But for what it's worth you can "stack" the boni of swords/ maces/ daggers when you mix them.

His point is: when the effects from one and the same passive do not stack with bar switching for swords and daggers, then neither should they for axes.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

b) I see where you're heading. Why is X weaker than Y for Z? Are swords also weaker on burst builds than axes? Why is everyone preffering daggers over axes on crit/pve builds? But to answer your question, why the bleed-weapon is better on bleed builds than non-bleed weapons: because that's how it is designed. I already agreed a few postes ago than numbers in tooltips are always up to debate but the overall design idea is not, at least in my eyes.

It's not better on bleed builds, it's better, period. Because the passive is balanced in such a way as to provide roughly equal benefit regardless of what weapon you use - and then provides the benefit twice for axes, but not the other weapon types.

To balance this again, you need to either give me 20% armor ignore on my front weapon because i have a maul on my back, or stop the axe bleed once i swap the axe out.