LeifErickson wrote: »

I was just about to die (obviously since it's a death recap) and notice how his poison injection hits me for almost nothing even though it does considerable damage in execute while his bleed hits for way harder.

You know death recaps aren't the most recent attacks right? He may have let those injects fall off before execute, bc, to hit that hard with 2h bleed you need a ton of weapon dmg. Ive had some ridiculous PI ticks, I'm talking 1 for more than those 3. Still, all 3 of those bleeds crit on you, unlucky. 2.4k each is a lot.

Is heavy weapons every second or 2 seconds? Bc that tooltip would have to be nearly 20k and you have 0 impen if it's every second.

1.2k crit per second dot is still nasty, but it's not the only dot that can do that.

pieratsos wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

I originally reacted on the statement that rock paper scissors is a bad design ... from my experience with other RvR (AvA or however you want to call it) games that had that design, it works well ... and I don't agree that this approach takes away player skill.

It emphasizes the teamplay and players skill to do the right decisions and use their build (or class) to counter or focus on the right target at the right time etc.
For example a burst single target damage dealer's can be a counter to opponent team's healer and are supposed to do that so the rest of the team can pressure the test of the opponents team... Tank is usually counter to that , his job is for example peelig off the healer those baddies ... etc etc...

Rock Paper Scissors design promotes skillfull gameplay and doing right decisions at the right time from individuals to work well as a team... and against common opinion it even works in outnumbered fights... have seen it work in DAoC, WHO and couple other PvP team oriented games.

Then we have a very different definition of what rock paper scizzors means. If what you are saying is that rock paper scizzors is skillful gameplay like using the right skills as a group prioritizing targets etc then yes I agree with you. If it worked like that then u have skillful gameplay and u wouldn't actually have to balance around 1vx for example since that playstyle is built on skill so it would be self balanced.

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

Only if you build that way though. Every class can be very well rounded. Damage Proc sets are not rock paper scissors either. Although they can be a bit excessive. Not 1 of the builds i run is hard countered to the point i can't fight anything doing a certain skill or tactic.

So running a build like full damage snipe who gets marked and dies to the other nightblade is a tradeoff they choose, not bad design. That opens up for great group game play as well, where you can have your weaknesses covered and essentially provide more worth than if you were solo. That's good design if you're trying to differentiate between classes and builds.

There is nothing good about mechanics that ignore the design of the game. Counters is one thing. That's the design of the game and that's good. Hard counters are not. Especially when they exist in a game with no actual limits (no softcaps) making the susceptible to be abused in conjuction with other things.

Bleeds "only" ignore physical resistance, they can be overhealed they don't ignore absorb shields (on contrary to oblivion damage) and they can be purged...

Obviously they are meant to be a counter against high resistance stacking characters A.K.A. Tanks... as I mentioned above, counters against tanks usually work as well against everybody else.

They were in the game since beginning so they are a part of the design, they don't ignore it. And you should know since your account is as old as mine.

I myself lately run around BGs on a 5/2 heavy/med Argonian stamSorc with clever alchemist + 7th legion + troll king and bleeds is what usually gives me trouble and they are on my recap more often than not, but I can deal with a bleed build in 1v1 situation pretty damn well and even win half of the times if I manage to outplay and burst down that opponent... to be honest Im fine with the state of them as they are.

My issue with bleeds is that they ignore crit resist and not just physical resist

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

I was just about to die (obviously since it's a death recap) and notice how his poison injection hits me for almost nothing even though it does considerable damage in execute while his bleed hits for way harder.

You know death recaps aren't the most recent attacks right? He may have let those injects fall off before execute, bc, to hit that hard with 2h bleed you need a ton of weapon dmg. Ive had some ridiculous PI ticks, I'm talking 1 for more than those 3. Still, all 3 of those bleeds crit on you, unlucky. 2.4k each is a lot.

Is heavy weapons every second or 2 seconds? Bc that tooltip would have to be nearly 20k and you have 0 impen if it's every second.

1.2k crit per second dot is still nasty, but it's not the only dot that can do that.

Most dots are every 2 seconds, unless they state otherwise (like caltrops, etc). He isn't unlucky, he's taking a 1.36 modifier.

the damage on that tooltip means his enemy likely did crit (2580 per tick every 2secs). His crit resists are 3k, which is only stopping 45% crit dmg modifers. But in CP campaigns a nightblade/templar can get 80% easy and guess which classes are running those bleeds .

Ill do some dirty math based on his build:
- Tooltip base (x since we don't know)
- using basic mitigation available (since block/armor doesn't apply here)
- if 2580 is the crit, then the base dmg was 1897.5 with all the dmg mitigation (2580 ÷ 1.36). Assuming he had battlespirit, 20% thick skin and 10% hardy, the bleed tooltip base per 2 second would have been 3756 ish ( 11268 total tooltip, which looks normal).

Then back to the equation:

CRITICAL MODIFIER=1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100):
1.8-(3000/68/100)=1.8-0.4411764705882353~1.8-0.44=1.36 Final Incoming Crit DMG

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100))

3756*1.36 = 5108.16 Final Damage if Crit

3756*(armor is supposed to be here but is ignored)*(1-(50 Battlespirit)/100)*(1-(20 Thick Skin)/100)*(1-(10 Hardy)/100))=3756*(0.5)*(.80)*(.90)= 1352.16 Normal Bleed

5108.16 * (1-(50 Battlespirit)/100)*(1-(20 Thick Skin)/100)*(1-(10 Hardy)/100))= 5108.16*(0.5)*(.80)*(.90) = 1838.93 Crit Bleed

If he had 4100 from impreg like a good little Stam build:

- 1.19 modifier instead of 1.36

4469.64 * (1-(50 Battlespirit)/100)*(1-(20 Thick Skin)/100)*(1-(10 Hardy)/100))= 4469.64*(0.5)*(.80)*(.90) = 1609 Crit Bleed

And if he had around 5100:
- 1.05 modifer

3943.8 * (1-(50 Battlespirit)/100)*(1-(20 Thick Skin)/100)*(1-(10 Hardy)/100))= 3943.8*(0.5)*(.80)*(.90) = 1419.7 Crit Bleed

And if he did major/minor protection with the 5100:
3943.8 * (1-(50 Battlespirit)/100)*(1-(20 Thick Skin)/100)*(1-(10 Hardy)/100)) *(1-(25 MP)/100))*(1-(10 MP)/100))= 3943.8*(0.5)*(.80)*(.90) *(.75)*(.90)= 958.149 Crit Bleed

Guess what outheals that every two seconds? Vigor/rally/lingering health pots.

I might have missed a number or two. But bleeds are fine, you just need to recoup the missing armor mitigation because you can't use block either.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

@Minno yea i was thinking it had to be every 2 seconds bc a ~20k tooltip (if it was every second instead of 2 seconds) would be much higher than ive seen mine .

Yea 36k Stam, 3.7-4k WD is about 10k tooltip for the heavy weapon bleed/DW bleed

You are only seeing that bleed DMG in his death cap because we normalized 3k crit resists as a mini base as more experienced players leave ESO and newer players are looking to fill in the gap. In my opinion, there are only two classes that can work with low crit resists; nightblade/Sorc due to their escape mechanics (streak and shade), efficient access to burst (curse+passive execute and relentless will+incap) and interesting defensive tactics (shield big blows letting hots cover the rest, and cloak ignoring all dots ). That lets them run troll king in heavy armor while still being able to kill or let's them slot LA+mostly DMG/regen sets but appearing to be tanky to most players.

Everyone else kinda has to roll impreg/trans first (or blessed set lol).

The answer is simple and has been in front of our eyes the whole time. Make a new debuff for perma-blockers (triggers after blocking for X seconds) and allow bleeds to only stack on players with that debuff, nobody else.

Same goes for shield breaker. A new debuff that applies when you stack the second shield and SB can only trigger with the debuff. Though the 5th bonus should be buffed in this case

Lotta misconceptions being thrown around here. Literally the only thing that seperates bleed damage from any other dot is the fact that it ignores physical resistance. That’s it. FYI, all dots go through block.

And just once again, good players don’t drop dead without a competitive fight against bleed specs on any class. Some people are making it out to be this overwhelming, impossible to compete against mechanic. And I’m just saying that isn’t my experience playing with or against bleeds at all.

Bleeds aren’t overpowered when you realize a stam warden can instant wipe a large group with sub assault/dawn breaker/spin2win

That’s what I learned when I rolled a stam warden

Counter to bleeds. Plenty of options.

1. DK and Warden - Outheal and sustain through it.

2. Templar - Press one button and cleanse all dots.

3. Nightblade - Press one button and cloak to surpress all dots.

3. Sorceror - Press one button and shield through all dots.

4. Innate class design. Try applying dots on players that can run around fast as cheetahs, or can streak, or can cloak, or can pop major expedition from a class skill, or can sit in your house and mitigate half all incoming damage.

Skoomah wrote: »

Counter to bleeds. Plenty of options.

1. DK and Warden - Outheal and sustain through it.

2. Templar - Press one button and cleanse all dots.

3. Nightblade - Press one button and cloak to surpress all dots.

3. Sorceror - Press one button and shield through all dots.

4. Innate class design. Try applying dots on players that can run around fast as cheetahs, or can streak, or can cloak, or can pop major expedition from a class skill, or can sit in your house and mitigate half all incoming damage.

1. Having major mending and a few hots doesn't save you from 3 bleeds, defile and proc sets melting you down.

2. Press one button over and over again untill you run out of resources you mean. Bleeds are basically free, cleanse is not.

3. Sure nb is decent against bleeds but it's also nb that benefits from them most, yes even more than stamplar imo

4. Even though bleeds don't ignore shields like oblivion dmg they will still rip them apart. The easiest time I had with sorcs is when I used bleeds and that was without master axes, the pressure was too much for even shield spammers to survive.

5. Running around fast doesn't do anything, you need to get close to land hits too so they can apply bleeds then. And no normal build is tanky enough to survive a full dot/bleed pressure build. I'm not saying all bleed builds win because they don't but when you meet one using 2 proc sets, 3 bleeds and defile you can't survive, you can't counter pressure, your just dead.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Counter to bleeds. Plenty of options.

1. DK and Warden - Outheal and sustain through it.

2. Templar - Press one button and cleanse all dots.

3. Nightblade - Press one button and cloak to surpress all dots.

3. Sorceror - Press one button and shield through all dots.

4. Innate class design. Try applying dots on players that can run around fast as cheetahs, or can streak, or can cloak, or can pop major expedition from a class skill, or can sit in your house and mitigate half all incoming damage.

1. Having major mending and a few hots doesn't save you from 3 bleeds, defile and proc sets melting you down.

2. Press one button over and over again untill you run out of resources you mean. Bleeds are basically free, cleanse is not.

3. Sure nb is decent against bleeds but it's also nb that benefits from them most, yes even more than stamplar imo

4. Even though bleeds don't ignore shields like oblivion dmg they will still rip them apart. The easiest time I had with sorcs is when I used bleeds and that was without master axes, the pressure was too much for even shield spammers to survive.

5. Running around fast doesn't do anything, you need to get close to land hits too so they can apply bleeds then. And no normal build is tanky enough to survive a full dot/bleed pressure build. I'm not saying all bleed builds win because they don't but when you meet one using 2 proc sets, 3 bleeds and defile you can't survive, you can't counter pressure, your just dead.

1) no but having enough impen reduces the DMG so you can run enough hots to counter (see my comment showing the equation above). Vigor alone accounts for a 1k heal ever second versus bleed's 980-1600 every two seconds.

2) Templars purge strength is to remove healing/penetration debuffs, not bleeds. Using a snare/immobilze immunity is important to extend the function of purge's strength to allow you a greater chance to take off a bleed or two.

3) that's because nightblades have escape, Regen, burst and defenses. So they can run bleeds with 2 DMG sets and feel better than a stamplar that has to play with terrible Regen to do basically the same thing. #nightbladeprivledge

4) shields/big heals handle big burst. Hots counter dots. Always been that mechanic.

5) proc sets are the issue, and defile got changed so that's no really an issue. Proc sets should cost resorces when they are cast in my opinion. Free DMG should be really tiny or cost 2-3k per proc for the DMG they deal now.

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Counter to bleeds. Plenty of options.

1. DK and Warden - Outheal and sustain through it.

2. Templar - Press one button and cleanse all dots.

3. Nightblade - Press one button and cloak to surpress all dots.

3. Sorceror - Press one button and shield through all dots.

4. Innate class design. Try applying dots on players that can run around fast as cheetahs, or can streak, or can cloak, or can pop major expedition from a class skill, or can sit in your house and mitigate half all incoming damage.

1. Having major mending and a few hots doesn't save you from 3 bleeds, defile and proc sets melting you down.

2. Press one button over and over again untill you run out of resources you mean. Bleeds are basically free, cleanse is not.

3. Sure nb is decent against bleeds but it's also nb that benefits from them most, yes even more than stamplar imo

4. Even though bleeds don't ignore shields like oblivion dmg they will still rip them apart. The easiest time I had with sorcs is when I used bleeds and that was without master axes, the pressure was too much for even shield spammers to survive.

5. Running around fast doesn't do anything, you need to get close to land hits too so they can apply bleeds then. And no normal build is tanky enough to survive a full dot/bleed pressure build. I'm not saying all bleed builds win because they don't but when you meet one using 2 proc sets, 3 bleeds and defile you can't survive, you can't counter pressure, your just dead.

1) no but having enough impen reduces the DMG so you can run enough hots to counter (see my comment showing the equation above). Vigor alone accounts for a 1k heal ever second versus bleed's 980-1600 every two seconds.

2) Templars purge strength is to remove healing/penetration debuffs, not bleeds. Using a snare/immobilze immunity is important to extend the function of purge's strength to allow you a greater chance to take off a bleed or two.

3) that's because nightblades have escape, Regen, burst and defenses. So they can run bleeds with 2 DMG sets and feel better than a stamplar that has to play with terrible Regen to do basically the same thing. #nightbladeprivledge

4) shields/big heals handle big burst. Hots counter dots. Always been that mechanic.

5) proc sets are the issue, and defile got changed so that's no really an issue. Proc sets should cost resorces when they are cast in my opinion. Free DMG should be really tiny or cost 2-3k per proc for the DMG they deal now.

1.Vigor is great yes but like I said before. I run vigor, forward momentum, crit surge, troll king with around 4k hp recovery, healing poisons, lingering pots and using minor maim. that is a lot of healing, and reducing enemy dmg by 15% Yet I have been killed by some bleed builds in a few seconds. I have beated many bleed builds too of course but when they add proc sets and defile with it then it's to much pressure.

2. I was just replying to say that purge isn't a counter to bleeds. You can't just keep spamming purge every 2 seconds.

3. yeah, them getting 28% extra dmg and major defile from their class is really deadly with bleeds. Bleeds are actually a lot less noticable on other classes. I can usually survive a bleed build with my large amount of hots but nb bleed builds just do so much dmg.

4. I know, I was replying to the other post to say that you can't just shield through all bleeds. 3 bleeds up and being spammed is way too much pressure to shield though.

5. Yeah proc sets are a little much. In no cp ( I don't play cp pvp) they hit quite hard and when used with bleeds/defile it can be very hard to outheal it. I still think defile is an issue though. Shorter duration doesn't really change much. Defile only needs to be applied when your under pressure the most.