Would you be more interested in dungeon dlc if normal was easier?

StamWhipCultist · August 2018

Other

I just hope to see some requiremets for these. For example, if you are below lvl 50 you should not queue for these.

Pastas · August 2018

No

Guppet wrote: »

Title pretty much nailed it.

A recent poll (not mine) showed that dungeon dlc is by far the least popular dlc content. So wanting to see if this is part of it.

So you openned a poll about Moster Helms dropping in normal dungeons, and now this one... I can see what you are plotting.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

No

Guppet wrote: »

When I do polls or questions it’s not so I can get things easier. Don’t assume that.

And for the record, the only assumption I'm making is that you're farming stars (go nuts!).

Your last three discussions posted:

The trend is pretty clear.

People are just used to the loud voices on forums being from the hardcore crowd and they don’t like it when those less hardcore start making themselves heard.

Feel free to be as loud as you like.

Being loud does not equate to being right.

Guppet · August 2018

Yes

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

If we are getting picky, you do realise that your complaint with DSA basically stated there was not enough difference between norm and vet (if clearing normal means they are capable of vet) Now you complain when there is.

Except is used to not always be that way. But that was in a land with zone leveled content, real progression from Tier I four man to Tier II four man to Vet to Vet HM.

You proclaim to have cleared all the four man content on Vet, yet you keep making these threads asking, in one form or another, for things to be dialed back significantly further than they already are?

Vet is for serious play. Normal is not. Sometimes I want to relax and not take it super serious. I’m good with vet and hardmodes being as hard as they are.

There seems to be a very serious undercurrent on these forums of wanting to keep content hard to keep people out. Or making gear hard to get, so those that get it can feel some warped sense of validation.

I’m never going to be convinced that normal modes should be hard. Hard is subjective.

And I ask again, what of those that are in the middle. What of those that don't have the option of being able to clear Vet (due to experience, skill, disability, etc) yet do want a challenge as that's what they paid for?

Your suggestion leaves nothing for those people, effectively "keeping them out."

No one is saying norm needs to be hard. Very few are requesting norm to be easy, either.

No one is demanding inability to clear for anyone of reasonable means. No one should be requesting content to be further simplified (or increased in difficulty) strictly to suit their requirements.

You are doing the very thing you're complaining about, simply on the other end of the spectrum.

Norms are not hard, not if you've taken the time to learn your class, and made use of the content prior to the DLC releases to hone your skill to an acceptable norm level.

And again, there are other methods of obtaining the gear, and for someone intending to be super casual, the gear isn't even necessary. It's bonus.

I’m not going to disagree with what your saying here. I actually think your hitting the nail on the head with one issue. Two levels of content is not enough.

Launch content can best be described as easy and medium. Norm and vet.

But new content is best described as norm and hard. Norm and vet dlc.

In the first instance there was no hard, now there is no easy.

For easy you needed no guides, no prior knowledge of the instances. For norm you do. That’s a disconnect.

Those that enjoyed hard now have content for them, 4 DLC aimed squarely at them. Those that enjoy norm dlc have always had content, as they are on par with old vet.

Those that like easy, had content aimed at them, but have not had anything catering to them since dungeon dlc started shipping.

zaria · August 2018

Other

mocap wrote: »

forum community ain't that casual, so it is pointless to ask here about content nerf, especially when there are ton of "overland EZPZ wet noodle" threads.

Agree, normal dlc is around as hard as the easiest vet dungeons.
Now they can be an problem if you have an very weak build and get in an weak group.

jaws343 · August 2018

Other

The two new dungeons on normal were easier than Scalecaller, Fang Lair, Bloodroot, and Falkreath on normal. Ran through both of them last night for the first time in around 30 minutes combined because for most of the fights, you can completely ignore the mechanics. Normal doesn't need to be easier. I already know that I will be able to quickly farm these two for gear on normal with any group. Normal probably needs to be slightly more difficult to actually prepare players for what they will be like on Vet. At least Scalecaller requires you to follow most of the mechanics for a smooth run, even when you can nuke a few of the fights.

notyuu · August 2018

No

The normal DLC dungeons are already comically easy

Tensar · August 2018

No

I don't care about dlc dungeon anyway. It would be better to have it in a "chapter" or with a little map with some quests

LordGavus · August 2018

No

Nah, I think the normal dlc dungeons are fine. They can be a little challenging for pugs if the whole team is unfamiliar or poorly equipped. But it only talks one competent player to drag them through.

RoyalPink06 · August 2018

I’m not sure I understand the question. You’re asking if we want normal DLC dungeons to be easier? There must be some mistake - they are already facerollable even with a bad pug.

redspecter23 · August 2018

Other

If random normal in general was pug friendly, I'd hit up the random queue more often. As it is now, I will queue randoms and really enjoy myself until DLC dungeons unlock and at that point I only play specific dungeons or full premade random dungeons. Normal DLC dungeons are beyond the capabilities of the average puglet and not worth the trouble.

Uviryth · August 2018

No

Its not that Normal is too easy, its that DLC-Vet is too hard. It just isnt fun.

ZOS_JesC · August 2018

Greetings, we've removed several comments that were baiting. This is a reminder to keep comments civil and constructive. Thank you.

Danikat · August 2018

No

I rarely do dungeons, but it's not because I find them hard. I've never actually been part of a failed dungeon run (note: I've only done normal mode dungeons).

The biggest barrier to me is that I need to be able to guarantee I'll have enough time to play uninterrupted, at the same time as 3 other people. No it doesn't take long to complete a dungeon, but it's still tricky for me unless I can plan in advance to make sure I won't be interrupted. Add on the time to get the group together and it's harder. I usually only end up doing them when one of my guilds organises a dungeon night so I know in advance when it will be and that there will be enough people.

The second barrier is that I don't feel much of an incentive to do them because I don't enjoy it as much as open-world content. Because I'm in a group I can't take my time like I normally do, speaking to NPCs, reading everything, poking around in all the corners to see what I can find. I have to keep up with the group and since I read slowly anyway I'm always going to be the last one even if I rush so I have to give up on doing anything else.

I don't mind doing the odd dungeon now and again but I'm not going to pay for more of them.

idk · August 2018

Other

The “undercurrent” in the forums to make content more challenging is mostly limited to quest content and it’s not from those who actually clear the more challenging content in this game.

Like some of us point out to them there is a hierarchy of content based on challenge and normal
dungeons is on the lower half of that challenge.

I’m one that understands why Zos has made l quests as easy as they are and agree with it. In the same token normal dlc dungeons are in a good place with their low difficulty as one can see the most of the mechanics yet most of the mechanics can be ignored. It’s hard to make something easier than being able to ignore most of it.

If anyone is having challenges with these new dungeons ok normal I suggest reading the vet guides. Even though their on vet you’ll find information on what your missing.

Joy_Division · August 2018

No

Normal is cakewalk as it is and does absolutely nothing to show people how to actually play the game. how would making it even easier make the experience more interesting or improve the game?

Guppet · August 2018

Yes

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings, we've removed several comments that were baiting. This is a reminder to keep comments civil and constructive. Thank you.

Do you sometimes feel like a parent round here? We must make your day delightful lol.

phileunderx2 · August 2018

Yes

Even on normal most dlc dungeons are a pain to complete with a pug. Heck even base game level 2 are iffy.

Kuramas9tails · August 2018

Other

Normal is easy. My boyfriend and I can two man it. Vet is harder but not impossible with a decent group. The HM versions......that is where you need a dedicated and strong group.And my DPS barley hits 30K without any debuffs.

So I guess I said "other" because I don't think they are too hard until HM and I wish I could complete HM.

jlmurra2 · August 2018

Other

I don't think it's the difficulty level that keeps so many players away.

I think more people would be interested in dungeon dlc if there was a version of the dungeon that was designed to be played solo, and granted the same rewards as the group version.

This would not mean it would be easier. It should be made to be challenging for a single player mode.

I understand dungeon dlc is meant to be a social activity intended for four player groups, but many, maybe even the majority of players who play eso seem more interested in the less social parts of the game.

Guppet · August 2018

Yes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normal is cakewalk as it is and does absolutely nothing to show people how to actually play the game. how would making it even easier make the experience more interesting or improve the game?

Cakewalk is utterly subjective. If your optimised in gear, build, skills, cp, food, potions, rotation, animation cancelling, group buffs. With good knowledge of game mechanics, and running with players you know yes it’s going to be easy.

This game has far more layers of complexity than we give it credit for. Once you’ve mastered it, the difference in performance is staggering.

You can’t ever unlearn it either, once mechanics are second nature you can go cp less, with bad gear and you’ll still be better than those that didn’t take it seriously.

So before declaring content as cake walk, do be honest with yourself and think just how much your knowledge and experience make it that way.

Remembe this is normal we are talking about.

Agenericname · August 2018

No

Guppet wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normal is cakewalk as it is and does absolutely nothing to show people how to actually play the game. how would making it even easier make the experience more interesting or improve the game?

Cakewalk is utterly subjective. If your optimised in gear, build, skills, cp, food, potions, rotation, animation cancelling, group buffs. With good knowledge of game mechanics, and running with players you know yes it’s going to be easy.

This game has far more layers of complexity than we give it credit for. Once you’ve mastered it, the difference in performance is staggering.

You can’t ever unlearn it either, once mechanics are second nature you can go cp less, with bad gear and you’ll still be better than those that didn’t take it seriously.

So before declaring content as cake walk, do be honest with yourself and think just how much your knowledge and experience make it that way.

Then maybe we should just share our knowledge and experience and theyll become easier without ZoS lifting a finger.

Guppet · August 2018

Yes

Agenericname wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normal is cakewalk as it is and does absolutely nothing to show people how to actually play the game. how would making it even easier make the experience more interesting or improve the game?

Cakewalk is utterly subjective. If your optimised in gear, build, skills, cp, food, potions, rotation, animation cancelling, group buffs. With good knowledge of game mechanics, and running with players you know yes it’s going to be easy.

This game has far more layers of complexity than we give it credit for. Once you’ve mastered it, the difference in performance is staggering.

You can’t ever unlearn it either, once mechanics are second nature you can go cp less, with bad gear and you’ll still be better than those that didn’t take it seriously.

So before declaring content as cake walk, do be honest with yourself and think just how much your knowledge and experience make it that way.

Then maybe we should just share our knowledge and experience and theyll become easier without ZoS lifting a finger.

But we would be sharing it with those that have already made the conscious decision to get gud. You can’t teach those that do t want to be taught.

Starlock · August 2018

Yes

My lack of interest in DLC dungeons comes from a few different places, but you nailed one of the major ones, @Guppet.

One horrible experience with Cradle of Shadows was enough to turn me off from dungeon DLC indefinitely. This experience happened not with a randomly generated group, but we did select a random dungeon. When Cradle of Shadows popped, there was this protracted silence in the group chat until I asked "uh... so... anyone done this one before?" Nope. Nobody had. None of us knew the mechanics. And on that dungeon, if you don't know the mechanics, it's brutal. Even on normal. We stuck it through and beat it eventually, but it took close to two hours and over a dozen wipes (especially on the last boss). We'd been planning to do more dungeons after that, but everyone was so exhausted we just quit for the day.

I've played Cradle of Shadows since then once or twice (on normal). There's still one boss I don't understand the mechanics of, but I have enough of a grasp of it that I haven't had a repeat of that awful experience. When you have a decent group that works together well, the DLC dungeons can be a lot of fun. When you don't, they're an exercise in patience and frustration. Most of the time, I run with random folks, not pre-made groups. I gather that there's general agreement that random groups are frequently ill-suited for the DLC dungeons.

kylewwefan · August 2018

Yes

It’s still a rare occasion that a random group finder pug will beat any DLC Vet Dungeon for me.

Kiralyn2000 · August 2018

No

I don't dungeon, so I've no use for dungeon DLC.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

No

Guppet wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normal is cakewalk as it is and does absolutely nothing to show people how to actually play the game. how would making it even easier make the experience more interesting or improve the game?

Cakewalk is utterly subjective. If your optimised in gear, build, skills, cp, food, potions, rotation, animation cancelling, group buffs. With good knowledge of game mechanics, and running with players you know yes it’s going to be easy.

You absolutely don't need any of those things to clear norms. Almost any build that even roughly fits the spec of the role they're queuing for can clear norms with three other people meeting the same criteria.

No rotation required, no terribly specific skills or gear slotted. No perfect traits, no BiS race.

This game has far more layers of complexity than we give it credit for. Once you’ve mastered it, the difference in performance is staggering.

And you don't learn any of that by further dumbing it down.

You can’t ever unlearn it either, once mechanics are second nature you can go cp less, with bad gear and you’ll still be better than those that didn’t take it seriously.

It's almost as if you're saying "gain that experience by learning your class/role/skills before jumping into DLC dungeons," or TL;DR; "Be semi-competent before trying these?"

Dungeon DLC's are not, nor should they be, intended to be your first dungeon experiences. The Version I's and the Version II's hold that purpose, then basesgame Vet or DLC norms maybe, with HM's and DLC Vet, and DLC HM falling in somewhere after that.

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

No

Normal dungeons already do next to nothing to prepare players for their veteran versions.
And even though I dont have statistics, I think it's safe to guess that many people are actually buying and playing those dlc dungeons. If they were a failure, like original Craglorn, they wouldnt just keep releasing them.

Guppet · August 2018

Yes

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normal is cakewalk as it is and does absolutely nothing to show people how to actually play the game. how would making it even easier make the experience more interesting or improve the game?

Cakewalk is utterly subjective. If your optimised in gear, build, skills, cp, food, potions, rotation, animation cancelling, group buffs. With good knowledge of game mechanics, and running with players you know yes it’s going to be easy.

You absolutely don't need any of those things to clear norms. Almost any build that even roughly fits the spec of the role they're queuing for can clear norms with three other people meeting the same criteria.

No rotation required, no terribly specific skills or gear slotted. No perfect traits, no BiS race.

This game has far more layers of complexity than we give it credit for. Once you’ve mastered it, the difference in performance is staggering.

And you don't learn any of that by further dumbing it down.

You can’t ever unlearn it either, once mechanics are second nature you can go cp less, with bad gear and you’ll still be better than those that didn’t take it seriously.

It's almost as if you're saying "gain that experience by learning your class/role/skills before jumping into DLC dungeons," or TL;DR; "Be semi-competent before trying these?"

Dungeon DLC's are not, nor should they be, intended to be your first dungeon experiences. The Version I's and the Version II's hold that purpose, then basesgame Vet or DLC norms maybe, with HM's and DLC Vet, and DLC HM falling in somewhere after that.

I think an issue is that, as you say they don’t require full optimisation, but they do need people fulfilling their actual roles. But they appear in the same random dungeon queue as ones that don’t require you to fulfill your role.

Personally I’ll never fake queue, but an awful lot do. Get one of those queued with thier mate and you can’t even kick them. In that situation good luck finishing it.

idk · August 2018

Other

Agenericname wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normal is cakewalk as it is and does absolutely nothing to show people how to actually play the game. how would making it even easier make the experience more interesting or improve the game?

Cakewalk is utterly subjective. If your optimised in gear, build, skills, cp, food, potions, rotation, animation cancelling, group buffs. With good knowledge of game mechanics, and running with players you know yes it’s going to be easy.

This game has far more layers of complexity than we give it credit for. Once you’ve mastered it, the difference in performance is staggering.

You can’t ever unlearn it either, once mechanics are second nature you can go cp less, with bad gear and you’ll still be better than those that didn’t take it seriously.

So before declaring content as cake walk, do be honest with yourself and think just how much your knowledge and experience make it that way.

Then maybe we should just share our knowledge and experience and theyll become easier without ZoS lifting a finger.

Exactly and good point. There weee guides out for vet in the day the dlc dropped. Those same guides are very helpful for anyone interested in normal and are challenged with a boss.

In the early months of the game I felt Zos dropped the ball in not having normal trials.

2016 (iirc) was the best year for the game. With the introduction of the best trial to date, vMoL, Zos also added a normal mode and within months every trial had normal mode and we ended up with normal and vet modes for all dungeons. It was and is grreat for the game.

Zos has continued to demonstrate an interest in apeasing the entire spectrum of players in this manner and it’s been been well balanced. All of us should have content that becomes a challenged to overcome and for some a normal dungeon might be it.