Minimun damage requirement for DPS role in vet dungeons

idk · August 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Yes there should be a minimum damage level to do high end content.. I'd say 80k minimum..

80k/s might be a little hyperbolic but 35k/s is pretty reasonable to expect. As a tank I drop groups all the time if the DPS is lacking. It's not even about plausible, for me I allocate about 15-20 min max for a vet dungeon run, if the first trash pack takes 2 minutes to die, I'm out. Someone else who needs to learn can learn with that batch of dps.

I was actually joking i do feel 35k - 40k should be the requirement. For top tier dungeons.

This is fine for someone forming their own groups which is easy to do. Heck, anyone in a decent raiding guild can form this kind of group easily.

However, none of the DLC dungeons have a requirement that damage dealers put out that much dps, not vet HM. They mostly focus on dealing with mechanics.

So this is a prime example why Zos should not and will not implement a dps requirement. Some are elitist about it which improperly gives the actual elite players a bad name since they are not the ones suggesting such things.

firedrgn · August 2018

Dps is not as important as mechanics. If dps each did 20k that would be plenty.

Waffennacht · August 2018

TLDR: most people suck at the game

Ashtaris · August 2018

Facefister wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

I disagree. 15K dps is more than enough for most non-dlc vet dungeons if they know most of the mechanics, don’t stand in stupid, plus you have a decent healer and tank.

You're naive, your average PuG gets 15k dps combined, and half of it does the tank. Besides, there is no "more than enough" dps. This mindset is the reason why your average DD is gimping him-/herself around 4k~9k dps at best. Why not aim higher? Why keep yourself that low and tell yourself that's ok? Why not blowing that boss to smithereens?

I guess you are running different pugs than I am then. I haven’t seen that many vet pugs where the DPS only does a combined 15K dps. The wife and I have run several pug dungeons where she tanks and I heal. We haven’t failed yet to complete the dungeon.

I will admit there have been a couple of times when I’ve pugged on my own where the DPS was doing some stupid things like agro’ing everything in sight and not letting the tank do their job, or not having enough DPS, but those have been the exception rather than the rule.

coplannb16_ESO · August 2018

we've been all there I guess.

did moonhunter on my warden healer thís weekend. Tank didnt know when to block, when to bash and when to dodge roll. and also didnt really know the mechanics. DPS were basically only magicka sponges. it took long, it was hard. Had to slot Crushing Shock to interrupt from range (so at least someone was intterupting)...

then march of sacrifices yesterday on my DD. group of low CP players (<300). Tank was pretty decent, but the other DD was a templar with S/B spamming Jabs. I did 70-80% of group DPS. Mechanics were not clear for most of them too (e.g. not pulling endboss to trap). thankfully normal is easy enough that you can pretty much ignore all mechanics...

my DPS on the second run alone was 2 times the total DPS of the group of the first run.

I mean I pull minimum 15K DPS just by spamming elemental weapon + LA... if every dps would at least do that and not only bow-LA (or S/B LA) things would improve alot

raj72616a · August 2018

Ashtaris wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

I disagree. 15K dps is more than enough for most non-dlc vet dungeons if they know most of the mechanics, don’t stand in stupid, plus you have a decent healer and tank.

You're naive, your average PuG gets 15k dps combined, and half of it does the tank. Besides, there is no "more than enough" dps. This mindset is the reason why your average DD is gimping him-/herself around 4k~9k dps at best. Why not aim higher? Why keep yourself that low and tell yourself that's ok? Why not blowing that boss to smithereens?

I guess you are running different pugs than I am then. I haven’t seen that many vet pugs where the DPS only does a combined 15K dps. The wife and I have run several pug dungeons where she tanks and I heal. We haven’t failed yet to complete the dungeon.

I will admit there have been a couple of times when I’ve pugged on my own where the DPS was doing some stupid things like agro’ing everything in sight and not letting the tank do their job, or not having enough DPS, but those have been the exception rather than the rule.

when i queue as tank, i get those max cp newbie dd who does 5k dps each and have to do most of the dpsing myself.

when i queue as dd, i meet those godly dd who casually do >50k dps and make me feel worthless.

murphy's law.

sudaki_eso · August 2018

raj72616a wrote: »

when i queue as tank, i get those max cp newbie dd who does 5k dps each and have to do most of the dpsing myself.

when i queue as dd, i meet those godly dd who casually do >50k dps and make me feel worthless.

murphy's law.

Yup, almost the same over here. With my favorite toon i get those godlike groups where we do the speed, no death, hm mode in one run without problems. While on my main i get those fake tanks and 5k dps groups

kylewwefan · August 2018

Big damage makes things go easier. But good support makes it happen. Even relatively easy dungeons generally go much better with at least a good tank.

This doesn’t exactly let the damage dealers off the hook though. If they can keep up 2 dots and light attack weave some spammable skills, they will do well with any kind of competent build.

Running around spamming light attacks isn’t gonna cut it.

I’d hesitate to put a solid number on it, because I’m also terrible beating on a dummy.

Since this topic is about dungeons, not trials.....I’ll go ahead and throw healers under the bus. More than half the dungeons in this game don’t need you to be a full time trials type healer. Do some damage. Throw some heal over times out, a few orbs and go back to damage.

StamWhipCultist · August 2018

20k+ for regular vets
30k+ for DLC vet hardmodes

That is how I feel when I see combat metrics from cakewalk dungeons compared to struggling or unable to complete groups.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

Guppet wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

I have a perfect solution. Make monster helmets drop in normal.

Yep, this is the main reason people who are not fully vet ready, step into vet dungeons. Drop blue helms in normal and average quality of people queuing for vet dungeons would sky rocket.

No it wouldn't. You realize monster helms only add 2k-3k in almost all cases, right? It's a not 2x - 3x multiplier.

If monster helms were the limiting factor in being able to clear content to get monster helms, no one would ever have monster helms.

Aurielle · August 2018

idk wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

First of all, if you were doing 47% of the damage as a tank you were not built as a tank. Even with the worst DPS I have seen I have not come close to that though any means when on a true tank. That is why I usually do not queue solo for GF on a true tank. Usually queue on a DPS as a tank.

Second, the answer to your request is no. Zos gives us the choice to form groups ourselves. Guilds are great for this and Zone is often a good choice as well. There is no excuse to not form ones group. It takes me much less effort than it would to create this thread.

It is ABSOLUTELY possible to do the bulk of the damage on a “true” (or mostly true) tank. My magDK Argonian tank used Ebon, Seducer, and Infernal Guardian. I lost track of the number of times my monster set cleared trash mobs faster than light-attacking DDs in vet dungeons. On the Precursor, the same character topped out at 8k DPS.

Must people are just really, really bad at this game. It’s tough being a semi-casual shift-worker who actually knows how to play the game, because most non-casual guilds have social requirements that go beyond simply playing the game. I don’t want to have to participate in raffles, have a presence in guild chat/Discord, etc, just so that I can complete a dungeon in a reasonable amount of time. After a 12 hour shift in which I’ve been talking almost constantly, I just want to blow off steam in a video game — I don’t want to have to be social on top of that. This is why I’m gravitating more towards PVP these days. You can test your skill solo in BGs, or in small Cyrodiil groups, or you can casually zerg in Cyrodiil when you don’t feel like going all out. No one forces you to talk or be social, and when AP is the only real reward, you don’t feel like you’re completely wasting your time if your group is bad.

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

Glurin wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

The mindset of the DDs, especially the bad ones, is that the tank and the healer should fulfill their role while their "role" of the Damage Dealer is a huge grey area which allows all kinds of shenanigans.

No, there is another kind of bad DPS. The kind that may be able to do ungodly amounts of damage, but if you fart in his general direction he'll keel over. They are the kind that refuse to adapt to any circumstances that fall outside his little meta box and would rather go on a tirade in general chat and/or the forums than make any adjustment to their tactics or stats because "muh deeps would drop!"

Well, actually "meta" dds are usually after those hard to get achieves, such as Immortal Redeemer and Gryphon Heart. And even in "normal" hardmodes of new trials and dungeons you cant really afford dying.

Then why are they in a PUG?

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

"Stack, burn and ignore red circles" meta is really outdated.
And I dont believe that someone who can pull high dps cannot comprehend the mechanics, simply because it's not possible to have good dps without understanding them. I mean, your damage meter keeps ticking while you're dead, and it automatically means bad dps.

I've watched it happen quite a number of times. It usually comes about because they get used to just burning the boss to ash so quickly that the mechanics don't even come into play. Or they make some little mistake and get one-shot because of it because they have zero survivability after shunting everything they've got into DPS. Or they just don't like that somebody else is "not playing correctly", which usually means not following whatever online guide the DPS is reading, and they screw up because they're too busy raging at someone to pay attention. Whatever the case may be, the common theme is that they end up putting out basically nothing because they're to busy berating everyone else for pretty much anything the elitist considers wrong.

Well, I dont know why they are here, you're claiming that there are some super duper elite dds who die all the time for some reason.
Again.
You cannot have high dps AND die every 10 seconds. It's not possible. Like, for example, if you do 40k while you're alive, but you're dead 50% of the time, its only 20k dps, which isnt "elite" or "meta" by any means.
What you're describing has nothing to do with meta, because meta is created for new, harder content where you cannot die every 10 seconds. Even the guides usually suggest using a damage shield or something. Not to mention that copying the build doesnt guarantee good dps because the majority of dps comes from your rotation and ability to pull off that rotation in a dungeon/trial. A copycat might be not "used to burn everything in 3 seconds", they might just expect this result because they saw it in a video, and then get angry because they couldnt do it.
Dungeon oneshots are another story. New dungeons are full of them, and even a shield wont save you. Hell, even following the mechanic doesnt always save you because the game is notoriously buggy and laggy.

Odovacar · August 2018

"Most" unexperienced DD's lack rotation execution. Even with trash gear you can pump out enough viable DPS for low-mid tiered vet dungeons. I always suggest to our newer guild members to practice the hell out of their rotation in real game situations. Obviously test dummies are great too but once you can marry your rotation to a specific set of mechanics your golden in most of anything you run across as you progress. Overland bosses and large zone mobs = perfect practice to lead up to dungeon content. Good luck new DD's!!

xeNNNNN · August 2018

I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.

If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.

In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.

Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.

and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.

kathandira · August 2018

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

lol, what would you like? A testing dummy parse when queuing for the game to know your numbers before it puts you in queue?

DPS is part gear, part skill setup, part rotation. How do you expect the game to know your rotation?

StormChaser3000 · August 2018

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

20k+ for regular vets
30k+ for DLC vet hardmodes

That is how I feel when I see combat metrics from cakewalk dungeons compared to struggling or unable to complete groups.

I have a question. When we talk about 20-30k DPS, are we talking about single target DPS? What about sorcerers? I've been quite frustrated while testing my sorc on the precursor and pulling average 13-14k (18k if to use ultimate ability). However most of my attack skills are AoE, so in theory my DPS should be much higher when fighting mob groups in dungeons (on a side note I have no issues to do solo normal dungeons, 1st versions). So I wonder whether this AoE factor is counted and I can start doing group vets with my 14k single target DPS, or should I wait till I figure out how to pull 20k single target on my sorc?

POps75p · August 2018

agree, needs to be a dps limit for entry

CyberSkooma · August 2018

ItsNebula wrote: »

With the CP cap, and the sets in game for PvE specifically.. EVERY DPS should be able to do (If youre 400-500cp+ id say) 35k+ now with just little knowledge of a rotation for your build.

If youre a PvE DPS and cant do at least 35k+ in this day and age of ESO.. why are you even attempting DPS?
(LOTS of Max CP that cant even pull 35k, its really sad tbh)

You say this but the main thing is that it takes a lot of micromanaging with your gear.
My stamblade was hitting about 40k on a 6mil last patch but ever since Wolf Hunter (I'm assuming trait changes or something, I haven't looked into it too much yet) my highest parse has been 34k. That's a big OOF, and I've changed nothing.

We're also talking about PUGs here. A lot of you guys are expecting too much from pick-up players. If you're so concerned over PUGs then join a guild with competent players.....I never ever have to pug for this reason.

Shezzarrine · August 2018

StormChaser3000 wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

20k+ for regular vets
30k+ for DLC vet hardmodes

That is how I feel when I see combat metrics from cakewalk dungeons compared to struggling or unable to complete groups.

I have a question. When we talk about 20-30k DPS, are we talking about single target DPS? What about sorcerers? I've been quite frustrated while testing my sorc on the precursor and pulling average 13-14k (18k if to use ultimate ability). However most of my attack skills are AoE, so in theory my DPS should be much higher when fighting mob groups in dungeons (on a side note I have no issues to do solo normal dungeons, 1st versions). So I wonder whether this AoE factor is counted and I can start doing group vets with my 14k single target DPS, or should I wait till I figure out how to pull 20k single target on my sorc?

Yes, we are talking a out single target on 6 mil dummies (though I guess 3 mil is acceptable also). While sorcs have a lot of aoe, most dps have good for damage and can also inflate their numbers that way, for example on certain trash pulls I've pulled 100k dps because of aoe, not because I'm good or anything but because of the sheer number of adds stacked in my aoe. This is more about how fast you can kill a single target while focusing it, be it the boss, or some special mechanic add. Aoe does not matter if there is only a single target

Shezzarrine · August 2018

xeNNNNN wrote: »

I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.

If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.

In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.

Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.

and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.

Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.

I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.

I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?

SquareSausage · August 2018

Grouped into a vet BC2 today and i can attest to my tank doing 50% damage, the bosses' health bar was dropping under 4k a sec, it was so bad. I had frost wall and engulfing flames up and standard as when ready. One DPS was so scared of fighting he was running away from the adds and resetting the fight constantly on Keeper Imiril when he dissapears and summons adds and then respawns after a short duration. We had banekin, matriarchs, clanfears and boss all up at once for most of the fight.

failed final boss as they couldnt kill behemoths or orbs that heal the boss in time, wasnt even a pledge. Had to quit.

Drdeath20 · August 2018

Single target Dps is fairly important but damage dealt is a completely different story.

Some groups struggle with adds because they dont have good splash damage and AoE. So while you are burning targets down with over 30k single target dps the adds linger around.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2018

kathandira wrote: »

abelsgmx wrote: »

ZoS may you improve a DPS minimun damage requirement for vet dungeons please? In my last dungeon (vWS1) I was doing 47% of the group damage as a Frost Warden Tank, the annoying think i that all want to be a DPS when not all are, the role of a DPS is do damage no kiss the mobs. 10 minutes to kill the second boss. Or at least remove the quiter punishment in this situations.

lol, what would you like? A testing dummy parse when queuing for the game to know your numbers before it puts you in queue?

DPS is part gear, part skill setup, part rotation. How do you expect the game to know your rotation?

You don't need this, the game can track your peak dps, and store 30-60 second average dps server-side without you even knowing. You do Normals, and the game tracks those stats and announces to you at some point when your dps is adequate that you can do base game vets, then when you improve, notifies you when you can do DLC vets. No need for some burdensome test at the door!

Shezzarrine · August 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Single target Dps is fairly important but damage dealt is a completely different story.

Some groups struggle with adds because they dont have good splash damage and AoE. So while you are burning targets down with over 30k single target dps the adds linger around.

Any dps worth their salt uses aoe skills, I've never met a dps doing good single target that doesn't use aoe skills, because those doing high single target usually know how to accually dps effectively

xeNNNNN · August 2018

Shezzarrine wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.

If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.

In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.

Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.

and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.

Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.

I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.

I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?

Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol

Yeah its totally fine to acknowledge the problem and I agree but if we do nothing with it then its pointless. Right now as far as I can see putting another barrier on the content would just be bad for new players and the player base generally (as you probably agree), My issue with all this is that instead of actually teaching new players and going out of their way to help people, they instead want to just block people who dont know any better from doing the content which imo is elitist as hell.

Acknowledge the problem fine, but we should teach those who have lower DPS how to be better. More people need to do this instead of just kicking them from group finder, ADD THEM and HELP them. I do it all the time when someone asks in chat or when we get a random running with our usual group. Always help them. Its the only way to reduce the problem of people joining with virtually no DPS.

Juhasow · August 2018

The most funny randoms are the ones where I queue as fake tank and pull 80% group DPS.

SquareSausage · August 2018

30-40k is way way way too much for your average eso player to expect to pull, if they are on a consistent sub 8k for years they will never achieve that.

A solid 15k single target would be adequate and achievable, just takes longer.

Facefister · August 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

The mindset of the DDs, especially the bad ones, is that the tank and the healer should fulfill their role while their "role" of the Damage Dealer is a huge grey area which allows all kinds of shenanigans.

No, there is another kind of bad DPS. The kind that may be able to do ungodly amounts of damage, but if you fart in his general direction he'll keel over. They are the kind that refuse to adapt to any circumstances that fall outside his little meta box and would rather go on a tirade in general chat and/or the forums than make any adjustment to their tactics or stats because "muh deeps would drop!"

Here is this "nearly all high dps DDs are dying non-stop in trials, while that 10k dps guy survives the entire fight" post. It's getting stale.

Valrien · August 2018

High DPS, dies all the time

Low DPS, never dies ever

For some reason, the forums can never find some kind of in-between.

Facefister · August 2018

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

I only care about DPS in dungeons where the HM is a DPS race but thats it.

If theres no DPS race then it doesnt matter.

In fact moon hunter keep NEEDS to be done slowly unless your DDs have like 70k DPS each or something stupid like that otherwise you'll trigger multiple boss mechanics and get wiped as a result. So having a minimum DPS requirement would just be toxic tbh especially when they're intentionally slowing down dungeons even hardmodes like that.

Though I will admit the wardens (lightning mages or w/e) are a small DPS race but so long as there are never 3 up at once everything is fine tbh.

and just FYI 30k-40k DPS is more than enough for nearly all content baring Trial HMs.

Yes 30-40k is more than sufficient for any dungeon, but that's not what we are talking about here. You may consider that low dps, which is more or less true for end game, but we are talking low dps as sub-15k.

I honestly don't think I've ever had more than one or two pugs pulling in that 30-40k range. This is one reason why there are so few tanks and heals in queues (other than it being a less desirable role to most people) it's that they don't want to spend 50 min in an otherwise 10 min dungeon. Let alone vDLC where even if there isn't a dps check the fights can be much harder on ta ks and heals the longer they go on, when mistakes start to mount.

I don't believe dps requirements are the way to solve this, but can we at least acknowledge this as a problem?

Yeah no 30k-40k for me is honestly where most people should be at in terms of general population (This is of course for DDs and not tanks and healers lol) so I have no expectations of people generally when it comes to dps so long as they can pull their weight, anything higher than 42k is for over achievers lol

Yeah its totally fine to acknowledge the problem and I agree but if we do nothing with it then its pointless. Right now as far as I can see putting another barrier on the content would just be bad for new players and the player base generally (as you probably agree), My issue with all this is that instead of actually teaching new players and going out of their way to help people, they instead want to just block people who dont know any better from doing the content which imo is elitist as hell.

Acknowledge the problem fine, but we should teach those who have lower DPS how to be better. More people need to do this instead of just kicking them from group finder, ADD THEM and HELP them. I do it all the time when someone asks in chat or when we get a random running with our usual group. Always help them. Its the only way to reduce the problem of people joining with virtually no DPS.

The problem with low dps people are that they're so ignorant. They don't want to listen - They'll rather seek an excuse to blame you than better themselves.
"You're a meta slave!"
"But do you survive longer than 12 seconds?"