Qbiken wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

If you kick someone from a random normal because of "fake-roles" without even trying to do the dungeon first, you´re a bigger problem than the ones "faking" their roles. Just saying.....

Nope.

I always vote to kick fake tanks because it’s important to not reward selfish behavior. And the only reason someone would queue as a fake tank is because they’re very impressed with themselves and don’t think they should wait in the DD queue.

Just saying.

You might want to step down from that moral high-ground of yours before hurting yourself....

It´s a game and I play because it´s fun, not to teach people about how to use their moral compass. I can tell you from experience that kicking someone from a group causes way more toxicity than wiping in a dungeon because someone "faked" their roles.

The only selfish thing in these discussions are the people believing they´re entitled to having everyone else playing by their moral rules (aka everyone must play their roles 100% or I will kick you). There´s nothing selfish about queuing for a random normal or any normal dungeon as a "fake-role" (note that I don´t think you should queue for a role you can´t fulfil in veteran dungeons, those are a completely other thing). Everyone has their reasons why they do it. Some people might do it to hopefully get some gear they´re missing, another one might just want to get that daily bonus reward and some extra exp to level up a skill or two. A third person might be levelling some undaunted skilline, and a last player might just having some role-play session on his/her character using very weird builds while being a role they´re not.

Who am I to judge why people queue as a role they´re not? I´ve my reasons, they´ve theirs, and kicking people just because they don´t fit into your mentality of how the game should be played is selfish if anything.

So he is wrong and selfish to want people to play the roles that they signed up for. But, fake tanks that chose a none tank group for thier teammates without ever asking them is fine? Riiiight.

The only selfish option there is the fake tank.

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

I like to see numbers. When I play healz, I like to see my HPS parse and total. When I play DD, I like to see my DPS parse and total. Maybe tanks need a "fun" metric like "MPS" - Mitigation Per Second and Total MPS. Or something like that. The death counter doesn't do it for me.

Not saying this would solve the problem, but it might make tanking a bit more appealing to people who like support roles AND numbers.

I personally don't like tanking because it's hard to quantify my contribution. Almost nobody ever says "hey, tank - you rock bro", but do hear a lot of "hey tank, you suck. C'mon taunt! Idiot." You get the point. If I have an MPS of 30k, I know I'm doing a good job regardless of the comments or lack thereof.

How to do that? Well, I will leave that to others.

The group DPS is your responsibility as a tank. The better you do your job the higher the overall DPS will be. So if a DPS is all excited by hitting higher numbers then they ever have before, then you know you did your job by holding the targets still in a tight group and keeping the high priority adds from one-shotting the DPS and healers while buffing their DPS.

How much damage you take/mitigate is mostly irrelevant IMO. If I can avoid big hits and take pressure off the healer while tanking then I will do it. It would technically make my mitigation numbers lower, but I am actually doing a better job because the healer didn't have to spend time or resources getting my health back up to full after the big hit.

kojou wrote: »

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

I like to see numbers. When I play healz, I like to see my HPS parse and total. When I play DD, I like to see my DPS parse and total. Maybe tanks need a "fun" metric like "MPS" - Mitigation Per Second and Total MPS. Or something like that. The death counter doesn't do it for me.

Not saying this would solve the problem, but it might make tanking a bit more appealing to people who like support roles AND numbers.

I personally don't like tanking because it's hard to quantify my contribution. Almost nobody ever says "hey, tank - you rock bro", but do hear a lot of "hey tank, you suck. C'mon taunt! Idiot." You get the point. If I have an MPS of 30k, I know I'm doing a good job regardless of the comments or lack thereof.

How to do that? Well, I will leave that to others.

The group DPS is your responsibility as a tank. The better you do your job the higher the overall DPS will be. So if a DPS is all excited by hitting higher numbers then they ever have before, then you know you did your job by holding the targets still in a tight group and keeping the high priority adds from one-shotting the DPS and healers while buffing their DPS.

How much damage you take/mitigate is mostly irrelevant IMO. If I can avoid big hits and take pressure off the healer while tanking then I will do it. It would technically make my mitigation numbers lower, but I am actually doing a better job because the healer didn't have to spend time or resources getting my health back up to full after the big hit.

True - the tank and healer work together to buff the DPS and keep them dealing damage (dead DD= 0 DPS). That said, there are more DD's willing to take credit/assign blame than thank the tank and healer. Plus, I don't rely on any DPS number to tell me how I am doing as a healer. I look at HPS, buff uptime, and - of course - the death counter.

I still think tank-centric metrics would make tanking just a tad more appealing. Each to their own.

Qbiken wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

If you kick someone from a random normal because of "fake-roles" without even trying to do the dungeon first, you´re a bigger problem than the ones "faking" their roles. Just saying.....

Nope.

I always vote to kick fake tanks because it’s important to not reward selfish behavior. And the only reason someone would queue as a fake tank is because they’re very impressed with themselves and don’t think they should wait in the DD queue.

Just saying.

You might want to step down from that moral high-ground of yours before hurting yourself....

It´s a game and I play because it´s fun, not to teach people about how to use their moral compass. I can tell you from experience that kicking someone from a group causes way more toxicity than wiping in a dungeon because someone "faked" their roles.

The only selfish thing in these discussions are the people believing they´re entitled to having everyone else playing by their moral rules (aka everyone must play their roles 100% or I will kick you). There´s nothing selfish about queuing for a random normal or any normal dungeon as a "fake-role" (note that I don´t think you should queue for a role you can´t fulfil in veteran dungeons, those are a completely other thing). Everyone has their reasons why they do it. Some people might do it to hopefully get some gear they´re missing, another one might just want to get that daily bonus reward and some extra exp to level up a skill or two. A third person might be levelling some undaunted skilline, and a last player might just having some role-play session on his/her character using very weird builds while being a role they´re not.

Who am I to judge why people queue as a role they´re not? I´ve my reasons, they´ve theirs, and kicking people just because they don´t fit into your mentality of how the game should be played is selfish if anything.

I'm having a hard time agreeing that the person wanting you to actually fill the role you deliberately queued for is the selfish one in this scenario.

Jeremy wrote: »

DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.

These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

My solution: become the tank. Now I have no problem queueing. I have 6 tanks now.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The veteran dungeon finder really needs to check players before putting them in groups.

Anyone queued as a tank should have at minimum a frost staff or shield equipped and a minimum of 25k health.

Anyone queued as a healer should have at minimum a restoration staff equipped.

no! doing pledges in normals are so easy that you don't need a tank or healer, just 4 dps can steamroll through. You want to force tank and healer to something that is not needed. You want to force tank to have a shield or ice staff on both bars? and healer to have resto staff on both bars...? Besides even so they could just de-equip the gear after joining, or do you also think that gear switching should be disabled for tank and healer?

What they need to do is give us more queue options. We need to enable likeminded individuals to team up, so if someone wants to run full dps to blaze through dungeons, let them select that when they queue up.

robhavok wrote: »

An easy fix, is to make it only available to group as a tank on the condition you equip sword and shield. Likewise healing the condition of using the restoration skill tree.
For DPS they could use 3 mill dummy parses to give a toon a rank. I don't know. There's ways to make pug groups work and not just infuriate people.

Once again...

Inner fire
Ice Staff Heavy Attack with Trifocus Passive
Tormentor set with a charge ability

There are more taunts than Puncture. There are more ways to tank than One Hand and Shield.

But as with all "role requirements" solutions, none of this really solves the issue of people equipping whatever they need to get through groupfinder, then taking it off again.

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

How would you determine this? By the number of X type skills they have points in? If I have 3 points in Tank skills, and 2 in DPS skills, I'd automatically be queued as a Tank, even though I'd prefer to be DPS. And you can't force queues based on class because that forces classes to build one way and only that way, destroying one of the attractive features of ESO that the game doesn't bottleneck you into one play type.

It's quite easy to say "fix this!" but it's quite another to come up with an actual fix for it.

Very easy..Mostly just by looking at Health. Is he below 28K health? If yes, then fake tank.
With costumes and outfits, it's a little harder to see if he's wearing heavy armor. Should have S&B at a minimum. If he's Dual Wielding, then he's NOT a tank.

clocksstoppe wrote: »

If you have 12k dps you are a fake dps buddy. Why would people invest in a real tank when their dpsers arent even trying?

lol, my tank does 12k DPS I can deal with fake tanks...It's the fake DPS that are only light attacking with a bow at max range doing 2k DPS that really annoys me.

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

I like to see numbers. When I play healz, I like to see my HPS parse and total. When I play DD, I like to see my DPS parse and total. Maybe tanks need a "fun" metric like "MPS" - Mitigation Per Second and Total MPS. Or something like that. The death counter doesn't do it for me.

Not saying this would solve the problem, but it might make tanking a bit more appealing to people who like support roles AND numbers.

I personally don't like tanking because it's hard to quantify my contribution. Almost nobody ever says "hey, tank - you rock bro", but do hear a lot of "hey tank, you suck. C'mon taunt! Idiot." You get the point. If I have an MPS of 30k, I know I'm doing a good job regardless of the comments or lack thereof.

How to do that? Well, I will leave that to others.

Umm, there is a sort of "mitigation" metric you can use. If you have Combat Metrics Addon, you'll see a little window with various numbers. Below is an example from my tank. (soloing a WB)

I tanked nScalecaller with my Warden Healer and 2 dps. I summoned the bear and used a taunt. I didn't queue for anything but I was a fake tank

robhavok wrote: »

An easy fix, is to make it only available to group as a tank on the condition you equip sword and shield. Likewise healing the condition of using the restoration skill tree.
For DPS they could use 3 mill dummy parses to give a toon a rank. I don't know. There's ways to make pug groups work and not just infuriate people.

ice staff has a taunt, and from my experiences i tank better with an ice staff then sword/board.

there literally no fix to this outside players booting out other players, and form their own groups and not rely on an automated services to make groups for them.

ff14 has set tanks, healers and dps. yet suffers the same issue.

SupremeRissole wrote: »

People are saying there needs to be checks like having a S&B equipped or minimum health. I hope you realise there are people out there who tank in medium armour without those weapons? And they can do it really well. Any good player can throw inner fire on a sorc or magblade or magplar dps and 'tank' a non dlc vet dungeon without dying.

Do they provide the proper buffs and debuffs a fully committed tank would? Do they do anything to aid with crowd control, besides spitting out DPS? There are basic standard things tanks provide to a group, and fake tanks usually do not do those things.

As someone who queues as either a "fake" or a very underwhelming tank for normal dungeons - I'm not insane, I'm not risking veteran - here are my two cents :

this game's roles are a pain in the neck and the combat system is just hair-pulling worthy.

I have no problem filling a role and playing in groups. Heck, I spent three years discovering the joys of support in the previous MMORPG I played, with hours of farming for better stuff and guild raids and researching the internet for advice and the pleasure of learning new skills and adapting one's character and trying out new things and improving.

[There's something to be said about the satisfaction of keeping one's group alive and casting a shield on a teammate at just the right time and being able to cast a skill that people don't usually think to use but that you, as a player, rightfully remembered at just the right time to make a difference. Because what's the point of giving people a wide array of choice if they then have to limit themselves to the tired and true and BORING 5 skills everybody uses ?]

I just can't get used to the combat in TESO. It's rigid. It's a "watch online streams", "learn the boss's mechanics", "slot the skills you know you're gonna need by watching other people play BEFOREHAND" system. There's not nearly as much room for one's personal touch as I'd like. And no, I won't go "play another game" because I like this world and lore and the next TES isn't out yet and goddamnit it's a MMORPG with some semblance of a plot do you know how rare and precious is that ?!

So personally, when I need to go to a dungeon, instead of queueing for an absurd amount of waiting time and a DPS role I can't fill anyway, I'll just grab the undaunted taunt, queue as a tank, and rush through a group experience that could be pretty cool actually if it didn't make me endure the excruciating in-game combat and its animation cancelling (REALLY?!) and pseudo-smart random mechanics that pretend to hide the combat system's flaws by adding artificial difficulty

(I'M NOT BITTER YOU'RE BITTER)

idk wrote: »

Sygil05 wrote: »

I've resolved myself to this being a necessary evil based on the way the activity finder works. Playing a tank is the hardest role in the game, and a lack of tanks is always going to be an issue. I've had several times where I've been in a group of 3 (1 heals + 2 DPS) and sat in queue for 30+ minutes with no luck. Realistically, a tank isn't necessary for a lot of the veteran dungeons, so one of us just changes the role and we're able to get through the content.

The problem with trying to fix this is that any fix is going to most likely result in even longer queue times.

Playing a tank in 4 man dungeons is not the hardest role in the game. I guess it can be for someone who has never tanked.

It has been brought up before in threads like this that tanks pretty much avoid queueing in GF as a tank because of the chance they will get a group with low dps. It is better for them to queue up on their DD instead so they can carry a low damage group.

I have yet to have anyone complain I queued as a tank on a light armor dps character. Often at the end of the dungeon they express they are pleased with the group.

I will queue up to tank on a DPS character, but I will slot a taunt.

If you held boss aggro, Ive got no problem with you tanking on a DPS character. If you don't, and the boss aggros on my DD or healer, I've got a problem with you not doing your job and expecting me to do your job for you.