There needs to be a serious change to the openworld meta.

ak_pvp · July 2018

ESO started as a game with many different playstyles, but nowadays if you look to openworld and even BGs, there is really only one. Classes with the best mobility and burst are always on top, its why magsorc and stamblade are the most played classes. It wasn't always this way though. The other side of the coin, stand your ground playstyles which composed round about half the specs used to be just as strong.

The current state:

After subsequent direct and meta nerfs, it is almost impossible to run a stand your ground build without sacrificing everything else in the process. And this is terrible design. In ESO, high damage playstyles don't automatically equal instadeath glass cannons due to mechanics like shields, dodge and cloak allowing them to have equal or greater survivability than tanky builds. So why do tanky builds have to have no/low damage? Is this not rather hypocritical?

It has gotten to the point that tanky specc'd builds are having to build for non native mobility to be viable, but then end up as weaker versions of other classes since the "resources" (sets, CP, skills) put into mobility on one class have been amped into damage on others. Take for example my main, a MagDK, passives and abilities heavily built around tanking, known as a tank class. How do they play in this meta? With dresses and staves playing like a weaker magblade, despite having nothing that synergises well with it because being a stand your ground tanky build is near not viable. Then there are the other classes like StamDK, Magplar, Magden. Notice how they were all lower mobility and tankier builds? But they can't ride on the coat tails of meta as much as mdk.

Hypocrisy in balance:
There seems to be a stigma around tanks that has inspired a lot of nerfs. For some reason, kiting/hiding and killing groups of players is perfectly fine and valid, but tanking then killing them is a cardinal sin. Tanky players who absorb damage are yes harder to kill and won't die as easily to a direct mistake, however the same tanky player has more focus, so will make more mistakes being out in the open and away from escape. Instead of blanket gutting them because it was too strong, they should have adjusted it so it is similar strength 1v1 as it is XvX. One example is giving block a slightly higher base cost and making it less reducible but reducing its tick rate to 1/s so its not overwhelmed

It was a fair playstyle and had more than enough counters and sacrifices in; weaving and damage loss, mobility/escape, sustain andd had more than enough counters in dots, unblockable burst skills ground/specific AoEs, bleeds and unblockable CCs, and bar some classes it was an L2P issue if you couldn't kill them, or at the very least ignore them if they were truly unkillable because they sacrificed mobility and damage for that.

For some reason throughout all the counters and fair nerfs the devs continued their vendetta against it, doubling block cost block cost and constitution/wrath nerfs to the point that heavy is worse than it started out pre buff with no block cost reduction. Tanky builds are borderline unplayable in this defile/bleed/sload/cage meta. But cloak with a better mitigation and good scaling vs numbers becomes exempt to sloads breaking it. The only reason heavy is used on a few stam classes is because medium is bad too and they basically have to. The meta for mag is near all light if you look at a solo/small group build because no super heavy sets like fury exist.

Speaking of sload and rune cage, for some reason these two are going to be dodgable too, but not reflect/blockable, as if tanks weren't endangered outside of zergs as is. Showing their biases and unfair balance decisions quite obviously and the complete detachment from the actual state of the game.

Conclusion:
There seriously needs to be a massive change to this, killing an entire playstyle, limiting classes heavily and creating this awful meta is just plain incompetent. I know not whether its the balance team themselves or just listening to the tears of the majority players (Sorc/NB mainly, who don't run tanky builds and have escaped that specific nerf hammer) but you need to take into account the overall game.

VaranisArano · July 2018

As you described, ZOS has been trying to deal with tanky 1vX builds that do high damage since Morrowind, when they decided that wasn't what they wanted to see in PVP. I doubt they'll let up until they feel they've succeeded.

GrumpyDuckling · July 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

As you described, ZOS has been trying to deal with tanky 1vX builds that do high damage since Morrowind, when they decided that wasn't what they wanted to see in PVP. I doubt they'll let up until they feel they've succeeded.

It's harder to be tanky in medium or light armor. Why not just have heavy armor reduce the wearer's damage done by x% per piece of heavy armor worn? Always thought this would help reduce the "high damage" part of tanky 1vX builds.

ak_pvp · July 2018

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As you described, ZOS has been trying to deal with tanky 1vX builds that do high damage since Morrowind, when they decided that wasn't what they wanted to see in PVP. I doubt they'll let up until they feel they've succeeded.

It's harder to be tanky in medium or light armor. Why not just have heavy armor reduce the wearer's damage done by x% per piece of heavy armor worn? Always thought this would help reduce the "high damage" part of tanky 1vX builds.

That is like the exact opposite of my point. Its harder to be tanky, but mobile builds are much more survivable as is. Should we chop their damage because they can live longer and escape?

Heavy build's damage is already nearly too low. Only with fury/rav/7th it can get even near comparable.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As you described, ZOS has been trying to deal with tanky 1vX builds that do high damage since Morrowind, when they decided that wasn't what they wanted to see in PVP. I doubt they'll let up until they feel they've succeeded.

It's harder to be tanky in medium or light armor. Why not just have heavy armor reduce the wearer's damage done by x% per piece of heavy armor worn? Always thought this would help reduce the "high damage" part of tanky 1vX builds.

That is like the exact opposite of my point. Its harder to be tanky, but mobile builds are much more survivable as is. Should we chop their damage because they can live longer and escape?

Heavy build's damage is already nearly too low. Only with fury/rav/7th it can get even near comparable.

Increasing the "tanky" playstyles survival and damage would mean that NBs and Sorcs would be the only classes equipped to run non-tanky builds. Everyone else would get eaten alive, being tanky with comparable damage to characters built for damage isn't balanced. Already virtually every top PVP build for the past two years has had S&B on one bar.

I'm all for arguments that NB and Sorc escapability is over performing. However moving towards "tanky" playstyles having more damage and survivability doesn't equate to better game balance.

ak_pvp · July 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As you described, ZOS has been trying to deal with tanky 1vX builds that do high damage since Morrowind, when they decided that wasn't what they wanted to see in PVP. I doubt they'll let up until they feel they've succeeded.

It's harder to be tanky in medium or light armor. Why not just have heavy armor reduce the wearer's damage done by x% per piece of heavy armor worn? Always thought this would help reduce the "high damage" part of tanky 1vX builds.

That is like the exact opposite of my point. Its harder to be tanky, but mobile builds are much more survivable as is. Should we chop their damage because they can live longer and escape?

Heavy build's damage is already nearly too low. Only with fury/rav/7th it can get even near comparable.

Increasing the "tanky" playstyles survival and damage would mean that NBs and Sorcs would be the only classes equipped to run non-tanky builds. Everyone else would get eaten alive, being tanky with comparable damage to characters built for damage isn't balanced. Already virtually every top PVP build for the past two years has had S&B on one bar.

I'm all for arguments that NB and Sorc escapability is over performing. However moving towards "tanky" playstyles having more damage and survivability doesn't equate to better game balance.

At base, yes having the same kind of damage would be broken. A heavy build dealing medblade level damage instantly whist not having to kite or move would indeed be too strong. However, a tankier build dealing med blade level damage circumstantially wouldn't be.
If there is a charge up, or like an enrage mechanic. Like fury is, or the wrath idea in my signature. So a heavy build can have the same killing power when tanking X people that a med build can get whilst dodging X people...

To put it in focus, a tank build would expend resources staying alive and building up enough ult and wrath/fury a group and then being able to dish out damage. They would forgo kiting and escaping for that extra face tankiness.
Whilst a medium build would expend the same resources staying alive by kiting, dodging the group and then bursting the group down. But forgo tankiness in lieu of more kite and escapability.
The heavy one would be slower to kill in a vaccume because they can take the constant interaction, wheras the med/light one would be able to burst more frequently, but they have to first find an opening.

Qbiken · July 2018

I liked the old "stand your ground" playstyle that was very present between One Tamriel ---> Homestead. Especially when taking DK´s into consideration. The only sad part was that the playstyle was mostly possible due to numerous bugs and exploits with certain sets and within the CP-system. Many of the bugs and exploits with sets and CP coincidently synergised very well with the DK class and the "stand your ground" theme.

Obviously many people didn´t like this, but made the wrong conclusion of the DK class being OP, when it was just certain sets that carried them. But it was quite obvious that when these sets and CP allocations got fixed, all these "immortal, high damage tanks" disappeared.
After that, block-cost got nerfed even further and the "stand your ground" playstyle almost died out, simple because of a meta that contains a lot more damage that can´t be mitigated (bleed and oblivion damage), paired with defiles.

At the same time we´ve these extremely survivable heal-bots that sometimes feel almost impossible to kill, and people use it as a reason why bleeds, defiles and oblivion damage is needed. I think that if you want to bring back the "stand your ground" playstyle, you need to lower the overall damage a player can make. But at the same time, lower a players individual healing potential.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

I liked the old "stand your ground" playstyle that was very present between One Tamriel ---> Homestead. Especially when taking DK´s into consideration. The only sad part was that the playstyle was mostly possible due to numerous bugs and exploits with certain sets and within the CP-system. Many of the bugs and exploits with sets and CP coincidently synergised very well with the DK class and the "stand your ground" theme.

Obviously many people didn´t like this, but made the wrong conclusion of the DK class being OP, when it was just certain sets that carried them. But it was quite obvious that when these sets and CP allocations got fixed, all these "immortal, high damage tanks" disappeared.
After that, block-cost got nerfed even further and the "stand your ground" playstyle almost died out, simple because of a meta that contains a lot more damage that can´t be mitigated (bleed and oblivion damage), paired with defiles.

At the same time we´ve these extremely survivable heal-bots that sometimes feel almost impossible to kill, and people use it as a reason why bleeds, defiles and oblivion damage is needed. I think that if you want to bring back the "stand your ground" playstyle, you need to lower the overall damage a player can make. But at the same time, lower a players individual healing potential.

Tbh, to deal with a healbot, you only really need defile and a CC. From then on, the fight was always downhill for the said healbot. Even before nerfs to tanking, all the tank people who tanked zergs hated NBs dropping by to say hi to them because the defile severely ruined them coupled with fear. I really don't think we need Oblivion/Bleed damages that ignore resists. Bleed/Oblivion builds hurt MA builds and LA builds a lot more than it hurts HA builds or full tanks.

ak_pvp · July 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

I liked the old "stand your ground" playstyle that was very present between One Tamriel ---> Homestead. Especially when taking DK´s into consideration. The only sad part was that the playstyle was mostly possible due to numerous bugs and exploits with certain sets and within the CP-system. Many of the bugs and exploits with sets and CP coincidently synergised very well with the DK class and the "stand your ground" theme.

Obviously many people didn´t like this, but made the wrong conclusion of the DK class being OP, when it was just certain sets that carried them. But it was quite obvious that when these sets and CP allocations got fixed, all these "immortal, high damage tanks" disappeared.
After that, block-cost got nerfed even further and the "stand your ground" playstyle almost died out, simple because of a meta that contains a lot more damage that can´t be mitigated (bleed and oblivion damage), paired with defiles.

At the same time we´ve these extremely survivable heal-bots that sometimes feel almost impossible to kill, and people use it as a reason why bleeds, defiles and oblivion damage is needed. I think that if you want to bring back the "stand your ground" playstyle, you need to lower the overall damage a player can make. But at the same time, lower a players individual healing potential.

Limit external healing in general. Remove smart heals for PvP and the problem fixes itself. Healbotting then takes effort, and if you don't heal others, then you become a pure tank who can just be ignored. Then stand your ground and tanking can return as a viable playstyle.

Also forces people who crutch on healers to have to git gud and learn to heal themselves.

John_Falstaff · July 2018

Just, folks, I'll urge you to be ve-e-e-e-ery very careful about reduced external healing. It may impact PvE. Less reliance on healers doesn't sound like a good idea there, since dedicated healers already suffer from more and more frequent 3DD dungeon runs and whole that "who needs a healer when you can have a warden tank" sentiment.

Skoomah · July 2018

When we think of terms of tanky, we need to look at it from a damage mitigation stand point. You either fight or run.

Sorcs and Nightblades are great at running. They can streak or cloak away. Very effective at running. They get away 95% of the time. The other classic “tanks” don’t have efficient ways to run. Sprinting takes up a ton of stamina. Easy to run out of stamina and it’s easy to reapply CC.

Then there is fighting. Blocking and roll dodging takes up a ton of stamina. People can build to block a long time but they hit like a wet noodle. They trade tankiness for low damage or vice versa. Pick what you want, damage or tankiness, not both. In comparison, shields and cloak are much more efficient and effective. Sorcs and Nightblades can spam both and then retaliate with massive burst. They don’t have to pick damage or tankiness. They get both.

So when we think about tankiness, it’s good to think about the different mechanics that translate into making a player able to absorb hits or avoid them all together. Not sure how we’re going to eat through shields or counter cloak spammers next patch. There still isn’t good counters against it.

callen4492 · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

ESO started as a game with many different playstyles, but nowadays if you look to openworld and even BGs, there is really only one. Classes with the best mobility and burst are always on top, its why magsorc and stamblade are the most played classes. It wasn't always this way though. The other side of the coin, stand your ground playstyles which composed round about half the specs used to be just as strong.

The current state:

After subsequent direct and meta nerfs, it is almost impossible to run a stand your ground build without sacrificing everything else in the process. And this is terrible design. In ESO, high damage playstyles don't automatically equal instadeath glass cannons due to mechanics like shields, dodge and cloak allowing them to have equal or greater survivability than tanky builds. So why do tanky builds have to have no/low damage? Is this not rather hypocritical?

It has gotten to the point that tanky specc'd builds are having to build for non native mobility to be viable, but then end up as weaker versions of other classes since the "resources" (sets, CP, skills) put into mobility on one class have been amped into damage on others. Take for example my main, a MagDK, passives and abilities heavily built around tanking, known as a tank class. How do they play in this meta? With dresses and staves playing like a weaker magblade, despite having nothing that synergises well with it because being a stand your ground tanky build is near not viable. Then there are the other classes like StamDK, Magplar, Magden. Notice how they were all lower mobility and tankier builds? But they can't ride on the coat tails of meta as much as mdk.

Hypocrisy in balance:
There seems to be a stigma around tanks that has inspired a lot of nerfs. For some reason, kiting/hiding and killing groups of players is perfectly fine and valid, but tanking then killing them is a cardinal sin. Tanky players who absorb damage are yes harder to kill and won't die as easily to a direct mistake, however the same tanky player has more focus, so will make more mistakes being out in the open and away from escape. Instead of blanket gutting them because it was too strong, they should have adjusted it so it is similar strength 1v1 as it is XvX. One example is giving block a slightly higher base cost and making it less reducible but reducing its tick rate to 1/s so its not overwhelmed

It was a fair playstyle and had more than enough counters and sacrifices in; weaving and damage loss, mobility/escape, sustain andd had more than enough counters in dots, unblockable burst skills ground/specific AoEs, bleeds and unblockable CCs, and bar some classes it was an L2P issue if you couldn't kill them, or at the very least ignore them if they were truly unkillable because they sacrificed mobility and damage for that.

For some reason throughout all the counters and fair nerfs the devs continued their vendetta against it, doubling block cost block cost and constitution/wrath nerfs to the point that heavy is worse than it started out pre buff with no block cost reduction. Tanky builds are borderline unplayable in this defile/bleed/sload/cage meta. But cloak with a better mitigation and good scaling vs numbers becomes exempt to sloads breaking it. The only reason heavy is used on a few stam classes is because medium is bad too and they basically have to. The meta for mag is near all light if you look at a solo/small group build because no super heavy sets like fury exist.

Speaking of sload and rune cage, for some reason these two are going to be dodgable too, but not reflect/blockable, as if tanks weren't endangered outside of zergs as is. Showing their biases and unfair balance decisions quite obviously and the complete detachment from the actual state of the game.

Conclusion:
There seriously needs to be a massive change to this, killing an entire playstyle, limiting classes heavily and creating this awful meta is just plain incompetent. I know not whether its the balance team themselves or just listening to the tears of the majority players (Sorc/NB mainly, who don't run tanky builds and have escaped that specific nerf hammer) but you need to take into account the overall game.

You make some interesting points. Especially the one about so many dk’s playing in light, as a weaker mageblade.

Question for you- On your magdk, do you use 5 light? Because I also main a magdk and I run 5 heavy. I seem to survive well and also but out good damage. I honestly don’t know why so many people run 5 light on magdk. It seems, like you mentioned, that by using 5 light, you can’t really take full advantage of all the dk passives.

However, a few patches ago, especially before the wrath passive, I remember almost exclusively seeing heavy armor players in PvP. You saw some light armor users and very very few medium users (outside of stamblades) but the vast majority of players were using heavy. Since then, I have seen increased variety in builds. I still see a lot of heavy users, although you don’t see very many traditional tanks that can take a total beating from 5+ people and still take it.

However, I do have a problem with how “tanky” shield stacking is. It is a problem when a light armor magsorc, who is totally specc’ed for max damage output, can take as much of a beating as a heavy armor user specc’ed for high survivablitity. On top of that, they have a top tier crowd escape skill too? That doesn’t seem like common sense to me.

I DON’T THINK THE SOLUTION IS TO MAKE HEAVY ARMOR HAVE MORE OFFENSIVE CAPABILITY, BUT TO DECREASE THE SURVIVABILITY OF LIGHT ARMOR.

It would be so simple to adjust the effectiveness of damage shields.

Or they could just make it so that MELEE light and heavy attacks do extra damage to damage shields. This would mean that light armor users would retain their full advantage by keeping their distance from their opponents, but have a slightly harder time staying alive when their enemies close the gap. In this case, they might also have to berf gap closers again. Increase the cost, or decrease their range.

But hey, what do I know.

Lexxypwns · July 2018

Actually, you shouldn’t be able to indiscriminately hold your ground without sacrificing a lot. You can easily stand your ground against 4++ players who are worse than you and even against 2 players of your skill level. It’s not ok to just be able to tank an unlimited number and then be able to get kills also, that’s not even remotely balanced and would then disqualify every single other playstyle available.

There just needs to be less incentive to dog pile on already outnumbered players.

Skoomah · July 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Actually, you shouldn’t be able to indiscriminately hold your ground without sacrificing a lot. You can easily stand your ground against 4++ players who are worse than you and even against 2 players of your skill level. It’s not ok to just be able to tank an unlimited number and then be able to get kills also, that’s not even remotely balanced and would then disqualify every single other playstyle available.

There just needs to be less incentive to dog pile on already outnumbered players.

So this counts for shield and cloak spamming too right?

NBrookus · July 2018

callen4492 wrote: »

You make some interesting points. Especially the one about so many dk’s playing in light, as a weaker mageblade.

Question for you- On your magdk, do you use 5 light? Because I also main a magdk and I run 5 heavy. I seem to survive well and also but out good damage. I honestly don’t know why so many people run 5 light on magdk. It seems, like you mentioned, that by using 5 light, you can’t really take full advantage of all the dk passives.

I usually run light, and am pretty squishy lately. More damage + more crit = bigger self heals. I'm far more likely to be able to outheal oblivion or bleeds in light.

When I run heavy it feels more like a DK, and performs better against more standard damage sources, but also dishes out less damage.

Since pretty much everyone is running oblivion and bleeds right now, on the whole I am getting more out of light armor.

Ragnarock41 · July 2018

I miss pre-morrowind a lot. The era between one tamriel and homestead was really enjoyable, All we needed was a nerf to proc sets(and a few other overperforming things like black rose,malubeth or whatever, constution etc), and the CP nerfs were also nice, BUUUT , the nerfs to class passives were absolutely overkill.

I'm still trying to understand why zenimax hates stamina DK soooooo damn much though.(also stamplars but thats another story) Its not like they're trying to rebalance it or something. They're trying their absolute best to make it the most boring thing in existance. Why would you balance a class based on CP and sets anyways? I don't recall nightblades getting nerfed because of selene-viper meta... Its just unfair is what it is.

Arthg · July 2018

Imagine if everything was balanced around what Cloak can achieve...

Many an NB be like:

Lexxypwns · July 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Actually, you shouldn’t be able to indiscriminately hold your ground without sacrificing a lot. You can easily stand your ground against 4++ players who are worse than you and even against 2 players of your skill level. It’s not ok to just be able to tank an unlimited number and then be able to get kills also, that’s not even remotely balanced and would then disqualify every single other playstyle available.

There just needs to be less incentive to dog pile on already outnumbered players.

So this counts for shield and cloak spamming too right?

Shield stacking is woefully inadequate against the scenarios I laid out.

Cloak spamming is not “stand your ground” but definitely needs adjustment so that it’s effectiveness isn’t so random but rather falls somewhere between extremely OP and totally useless, which are the two typical results from use of cloak. I’ve submitted multiple detailed and well thought out solutions to the issues cloak has both in reliability and in over performance.

Skoomah · July 2018

You sure shield spamming or cloak spamming players can’t “stand their ground”?

Highly skilled Sorcs and NBs have no problem taking on 4+ people at the same time.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Actually, you shouldn’t be able to indiscriminately hold your ground without sacrificing a lot. You can easily stand your ground against 4++ players who are worse than you and even against 2 players of your skill level. It’s not ok to just be able to tank an unlimited number and then be able to get kills also, that’s not even remotely balanced and would then disqualify every single other playstyle available.

There just needs to be less incentive to dog pile on already outnumbered players.

So this counts for shield and cloak spamming too right?

Shield stacking is the absolute worse defensive tool to use when outnumbered.

Skoomah · July 2018

Find an elite Sorc to fight against. Shield stacking for days and then counters with enough burst to blow you up in 3 seconds flat.

No one fights outnumbered without stringing out people and using some sort of line of sight. Streak + Cloak + Resto Ult + Crazy Burst DPS gets the kill. I see it all the time.

Gilvoth · July 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

but you need to take into account the overall game.

you have that idea a little backwards.

there are alot of people who do not agree with you.

you are not and were not speaking for the entire community when you and your friends asked for nerfs.
there are alot more people playing this game that do not agree with what you are asking for.

Ragnarock41 · July 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

but you need to take into account the overall game.

you have that idea a little backwards.

there are alot of people who do not agree with you.

you are not and were not speaking for the entire community when you and your friends asked for nerfs.
there are alot more people playing this game that do not agree with what you are asking for.

And who might you be?

Joy_Division · July 2018

OP is right but it's just accepted that is how MMOs and fantasy RPGs in general work.

Think about it, the whole idea of having a role dubbed the "tank" that does little damage when actual historical tanks also have devastating firepower is silly.

How it's supposed to work is that "DPS" specs, when caught and subjected to strong attack, should not be able to withstand it, hence the idea of a "glass cannon." But the way ESO works, is while DPS specs can't resist such attacks, they can potentially avoid them. So they can have it both ways: effective power and survivability, albeit through different means than the "tanks."

Unless the DPS specs are willing to accept a nerf to their ability to avoid incoming damage or the community in general is willing to accept that fantasy "tanks" should resemble historical tanks and combine resilience and firepower, the playstyle of "hold your ground" will remain cute and niche as opposed to efficient and versatile.

Skoomah · July 2018

Amen!

leepalmer95 · July 2018

Meta would be heavy armour and 30k+ hp because all the zergs run this.

Sets like sloads/ skoria etc.. allow these builds to hit you with 2k whip but be a threat because of the sets + poisons do so much free dmg.

Ragnarock41 · July 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP is right but it's just accepted that is how MMOs and fantasy RPGs in general work.

Think about it, the whole idea of having a role dubbed the "tank" that does little damage when actual historical tanks also have devastating firepower is silly.

How it's supposed to work is that "DPS" specs, when caught and subjected to strong attack, should not be able to withstand it, hence the idea of a "glass cannon." But the way ESO works, is while DPS specs can't resist such attacks, they can without too much trouble avoid them. So they can have it both ways: effective power and survivability, albeit through different means than the "tanks."

Unless the DPS specs are willing to accept a nerf to their ability to avoid incoming damage or the community in general is willing to accept that fantasy "tanks" should resemble historical tanks and combine resilience and firepower, the playstyle of "hold your ground" will remain cute and niche as opposed to efficient and versatile.

ESO is not a game where you can apply the holy trinity of heal-dd-tank though.( I mean sure in PvE it barely functions but even then we roll through most vet dungeons with 4 DDs) Especially not in PvP where everybody has the damage, heals, and the tankyness.

And besides, if real life is concerned, heavy armor is pretty realistic I would say. In a real medieval battle you would be suicidal to not take some proper plate armor, and a pretty big round helmet, supported by probably some mail armor inside.

Anyways, back to the topic and game meta, those ''DPS specs'' are dominant in numbers because people go where the grass is green.
The ''stand your whatever'' playstyle got soo many different nerfs that it has gotten to a ridicilous point where SnB Dks/templars are running 3 swift+ expedition so that they can be discount nightblades/sorcs.

If zenimax is afraid that their willy nilly dps players might Ragequit, I don't know what to say though. The best they could do is at least offer a class change token so the message can be clear.

Killset · July 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I miss pre-morrowind a lot. The era between one tamriel and homestead was really enjoyable, All we needed was a nerf to proc sets(and a few other overperforming things like black rose,malubeth or whatever, constution etc), and the CP nerfs were also nice, BUUUT , the nerfs to class passives were absolutely overkill.

I'm still trying to understand why zenimax hates stamina DK soooooo damn much though.(also stamplars but thats another story) Its not like they're trying to rebalance it or something. They're trying their absolute best to make it the most boring thing in existance. Why would you balance a class based on CP and sets anyways? I don't recall nightblades getting nerfed because of selene-viper meta... Its just unfair is what it is.

Nightblade sustain got decimated right alongside DK. Leaching strike is now a shadow of its former glory. The only class to escape that travesty was Sorc, with Dark Deal remaining untouched.

Ragnarock41 · July 2018

Killset wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I miss pre-morrowind a lot. The era between one tamriel and homestead was really enjoyable, All we needed was a nerf to proc sets(and a few other overperforming things like black rose,malubeth or whatever, constution etc), and the CP nerfs were also nice, BUUUT , the nerfs to class passives were absolutely overkill.

I'm still trying to understand why zenimax hates stamina DK soooooo damn much though.(also stamplars but thats another story) Its not like they're trying to rebalance it or something. They're trying their absolute best to make it the most boring thing in existance. Why would you balance a class based on CP and sets anyways? I don't recall nightblades getting nerfed because of selene-viper meta... Its just unfair is what it is.

Nightblade sustain got decimated right alongside DK. Leaching strike is now a shadow of its former glory. The only class to escape that travesty was Sorc, with Dark Deal remaining untouched.

Stamblades are the literal god tier of this game right now.. Unlike Dks they can actually make full use of their stamina regen ,and on top of that they have actual % regen passives that help with regen.

I don't know what rock you're under but just before sloads came out stamblades with 3k stam regen were literally everywhere, and mark my words, they will be the god tier again once the sload nerfs come in.

Now do answer me, where are the max stam sDKs? right, they don't exist anymore. and considering the remaining stamDks who think they are good use sloads+viper and other no skill click to win setups(any setup with sloads setups will work by the way. Its not even DK specific.), I think I can safely say that those two nerfs simply don't even compare. (Unless you played one of those tankblade builds ,then, I'm sorry for you.)

To take it shortly, nightblade sustain took a hit aswell, but it didn't kill their entire playstyle. Nightblade was never the ''outsustain'' class to begin with. And with all in mind, stamblades still sustain A LOT easier than Dks.

NBrookus · July 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Actually, you shouldn’t be able to indiscriminately hold your ground without sacrificing a lot. You can easily stand your ground against 4++ players who are worse than you and even against 2 players of your skill level. It’s not ok to just be able to tank an unlimited number and then be able to get kills also, that’s not even remotely balanced and would then disqualify every single other playstyle available.

There just needs to be less incentive to dog pile on already outnumbered players.

So this counts for shield and cloak spamming too right?

Shield stacking is the absolute worse defensive tool to use when outnumbered.

Blocking and wings and self-healing are pretty lousy outnumbered too. The only thing that aren't are dodge and cloak, and stamblade gets to have both plus loads of upfront burst. And if nightblade wants to complain about sustain, my DK will trade you Battleroar for Refreshing Shadows in heartbeat.

If this game is to have a true roll for tank/heavy fighter/berserker style, then the pure dps classes need to get a LOT squishier so that they NEED tanks and healers to mitigate and cure damage in order to survive. But that is at odds with solo overland content, so we'll never see it.

Lexxypwns · July 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

You sure shield spamming or cloak spamming players can’t “stand their ground”?

Highly skilled Sorcs and NBs have no problem taking on 4+ people at the same time.

Same goes for every class. Shields have awful scaling against multiple opponents.

Cloak is useless if you stand your ground since it literally relies on being outside of opponents AoEs to not get hard countered.