There needs to be a serious change to the openworld meta.

Xvorg

The worst change ZoS did was to remove stam recovery while blocking... they could have perfectly reduced the recovery on a half while blocking. Anyway, no reason complaining about that at this point, it is what it is.

What is hard to understand is the philosophy in ZoS decisions regarding how classes should be played. Originally it was high risk, high reward for the so called glass cannons, and low risk, low reward for the so called tanks, and it made perfect sense at some point. The problem is that, in practice, that philosophy shifted to low risk, high reward for glass cannons (due mostly the tools they have to avoid damage) , and high risk, low reward for tanks (because they haven't change the "stay your ground" focus, but they have also nerfed all those "stay your ground" utilities, while adding some other utilities that directly affect that playing style, like resource poisons and oblivion dmg just to name two of them).

From that analysis, we can infere 2 things:

1- The glass cannon style requires perfect use of elements that depends mainly on class skills. Any Sorc or NB just need to slot streak-shields/shade-cloak to make use of the mitigation they are provided. Of course, it requieres practice and it is not 100% reliable, but it is enough to make the playing style... let say viable. Having that (which provides enough mitigation to the playing style) you can build towards sustain and dmg (yes, both). And of course, they need to learnd their class. At the end it is a L2P issue.

2- The tanky style requieres certain specific elements to work, which, sometimes, are not available or easy to get, such as immo pots, mitigation sets, self heals (in the case of stamDK the self heals are laughable) or in the worst case a pocket healer. Once they have got that, they can start building towards sustain or dmg, but no both, because you already had to invest into mitigation.

Comparing both playing styles, one which requires just skills asociated to the class (and the right management of it) and the other that requires a great deal of elements outside the class (and the right management of them) it's quite clear to point out which one will give you a larger % of success.

I want to point out that everyone of us makes that analysis when chosing a class to build or a class to chose on PvP. This is not something I've invented, it's just picture of what you see on cyro nowadays. If somebody says this is not true then s/he's blatantly liying

Rianai

It is much easier to ignore a player who just runs away/hides than to ignore a player who sits right in your face (unless its a ganker - but imo burst from stealth without tell is a different issue and shouldn't be a thing to begin with).
Someone who runs is harmless unless players choose to chase and eventually get picked off. But that's their decision. But i can't decide to not mess with a tank who keeps spamming me with cc, debuffs and/or dmg while sitting in my face, unless i run away, which might as well equal to losing that "fight".
I think that's the main difference between tanking and running and why it can't be treated like the same.

Skoomah

I don’t agree. There have been countless cowards that run away and just come back moments later to re-engage you.

Waffennacht

I dunno. I like my tank, I like my tank a lot

ak_pvp

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

You sure shield spamming or cloak spamming players can’t “stand their ground”?

Highly skilled Sorcs and NBs have no problem taking on 4+ people at the same time.

Same goes for every class. Shields have awful scaling against multiple opponents.

Cloak is useless if you stand your ground since it literally relies on being outside of opponents AoEs to not get hard countered.

With shields you can't really stand your ground, that is true. But you can't with block either in this defile/bleed meta and after numerous nerfs. What you can however do with shields is maintain a bit more mobility and damage that you can't in heavy and block.

SilverWF

I'm pretty sure, that being tanky and deal tons of damage at the same time - a something, that ZOS trying to avoid at all cost.

And it even sounds like a nonsense.

You already mentioned some pretty cool heavy sets, that allows you to deal Damage. What else you want?

ak_pvp

SilverWF wrote: »

I'm pretty sure, that being tanky and deal tons of damage at the same time - a something, that ZOS trying to avoid at all cost.

And it even sounds like a nonsense.

You already mentioned some pretty cool heavy sets, that allows you to deal Damage. What else you want?

It sounds like nonsense because you don't like it is all. Its no less nonsensical that being super mobile and having shields whilst maintaining all your damage. Or being able to hide behind cloak and roll and having all your damage. Tanking is one method of survival in ESO. Unlike in other games where it is nearly the only method of engagement survival. Other games tanks are near immortal and DDs super squishy die the second they are caught.

The "cool heavy sets" that allow you to deal damage still don't factor in that that a magsorc and stamblade/magblade on the other side can survive just as well or better whilst maintaining same or higher damage AND have an escape. (Kind of) Also, the sets are stam only.

kaithuzar

I think right now, sloads aside, is the most balanced the game has ever been.

I’ve always praised rubixy when he told me he was using the unchained passive breakfree with rapids (at a very low reduce cost) for mobility on his Stam DK

Solariken

I actually don't think we're in a bad spot right now with tanking - it takes an appropriate amount of investment and you can still deal significant damage if you want.

Shield stacking is absolutely over-performing though and needs to be addressed. Sorc is a mobile class and should have to play to that strength, not face-tank damage with shields a mile thick. Instead of nerfing shields though, what we need is more soft counters to shields that make straight shield stacking redundant and not worthwhile. Maybe shock damage could interact with shields in some way, maybe dealing 20% of the absorbed damage to the shielders health like the electrical current is overloading the ward (just spit-balling).

Similarly, Cloak needs to be reworked. Invisibility and escape should be its function, not 100% DOT mitigation and empowering huge un-telegraphed bursts.

There are a multitude of other problems but those are definitely two of the most egregious.

Drakkdjinn

CP is the culprit, they can't manage it in PvP & are just moving the needle blindly back and forth.

DoobZ69

Problem= PVE hits are steady. PVP hits are sporadic and bursty and CC oriented.
Tanks in PVE can block Heavy attacks (which almost kill them) and then receive a heal in between. In PVP it is impossible to predict when the "Heavy attack" will come and even if it doesn't he is bombarded with a weaved in barrage of 10 attacks in a matter of seconds which almost kill him, apply a bunch of DOTS and other weaknesses like snare and stuns. The problem is that these attacks keep coming and it is like trying to survive a series of Heavy attacks by the boss one after another - no tank can do that on his own.
The difference is that without blocking those attacks are still insanely damaging because of the penetration all PVP players wield (which the NPCs do not). Blocking does not allow you to strike back unlike dodge and shields. Therefore a person dodging and shielding is able to do damage in return, the person blocking is not. The other part is that blocking is a continuous activity whereas dodging and shielding are an activate which lasts 4-6 seconds.
So the only difference in "tanking" is the HP and resistance if you discount the blocking/dodging/shields. In that case the "tanks" are tankier because a LA wearer will be 1shot by a boss (or a minotaur, say) in a dungeon whereas the HA wearer won't. Its everything that happens before and after that makes the difference.


Problem=PVE tanking comes with a healer. in PVP that is not always the case.
A boss/NPC deals a lot of damage and the way fights are designed the non-tank roles take some damage as well. Even in the current state of DPS "tankiness" they drop like flies in veteran dungeons. The tank takes the heavy target and tanks it by himself? Not always, depending on the build/class,etc. So you need a healer to "tank properly". So by the same token to "tank properly" you still need a healer in a PVP environment, a lot of people forget that.

Problem=DPS roles can wear heavy armor/gear and be tanky on the second bar. What is meant by ""tank" needs to be clarified.
The perfect example is a player wearing 2h on one bar and 1h/shield on another bar. Currently they use the 1h/shield to build their dps multipliers and then switch to 2h to 1shot everything around them. Should that player have their DPS increased? Specific skills and builds and understanding that everything is accessible to every player in this game are required for this to be considered. Therefore a change to a skill or a build or a combo affects many other angles which will be even further distorted, sometimes in an even worse way.
As an example should a player which uses green blood and talons be able to destroy you as quickly as a player with runecage and meteor?
So let's ignore gear and ignore skills, let's look at the build. You build for HP and want HP to add in damage? Damage to what? Every skill? Every magicka skill? Every stamina skill? Every weapon skill? Only 1h/shield skill? What about Frost staff? Are they not Tanks? What about the fact that it is perfectly fine to tank with 0 points in health attribute? What about the fact that most PVP players already focus on HP anyway and still 1shot using the correct build, should they have DPS increased? How will you deal with a tank swapping to a 2H and queuing for a DLC dungeon with 64points in HP claiming he is DPS now?
It is not as easy as it sounds to simply say "tanks need more DPS".

Problem=DPS builds for PVP are HP and penetration based.
Already covered in the previous write-up but will cover it here specifically. To be "tanky" in PVE is to have resistance to certain damage, depending on the encounter. To be "tanky" in PVP is to have virtually no resistance because of penetration. So you fall back to dodging, which is 100% reliable for a period of time AT A COST. Or you fall back to shielding, which is 100% reliable AT A COST. Or blocking which is 100% reliable AT A COST during which you can't do anything and have no regen.
So slap on dodge, slap on shield, forget about blocking. There goes your "tanking" in PVP. Increasing DPS won't fix that.

Problem=Tanks are designed for PVE but no utility for PVP.
This is where the biggest problem lies. You can taunt in PVE and get a result but taunt in PVP and you get nothing. "Oh but you get the penetration buff so keep applying piercing damage!" Yeah and you get that in PVE but taunt still does something else. So the utility is lost. It is the same problem I experienced in WoW, I have a taunt skill on the bar taking up space for PVE but still taking up space pointlessly in PVP. Some games have ingeniously worked taunt into PVP. A good example being SWTOR where taunting a player caused them to do less damage to everyone except you. So when they ignore the tank and try to kill the healer the tank taunts and the DPS is doing half damage. Now the tank as well as the weaker target are both just as hard to kill so they don't just focus on the weaker one.
WoW tank has an ability to "disarm". In SWTOR you can "guard" a player and if they are within the vicinity part of the damage they take is transferred to you instead. These are the kinds of utilities a "true tank" should have.
We are meant to be the focus of the damage and this is artificially done in PVE with the "taunt" mechanic but in PVP we are simply ignored, bypassed and then beat down after we are the only one left standing with our miniscule damage. Block all you want while your healer is defiled and destroyed, you are a waste of space and giving you slightly more damage won't change that. The healer should always be the focus in PVP (as it stands). The only time I struggled with that was in SWTOR where the healer (or DPS) has "guard" on and I am taunted, this now made me think as to which role was more important to target first - tank or healer or DPS.

When ZOS gives a shield wearer proper PVP utility you will see people properly grouping up with the right roles. Right now in a fight of 4DPS vs 1tank/2dps/1healer (for example) the 4DPS will crush the healer, then the DPS, then kite and laugh at the tank. If a tank can properly disarm, silence, protect, "taunt", then having a tank will become beneficial and we will receive the heals much needed to properly perform in PVP.

Just some thoughts. Churr.

PS: I just wanted to mention AOE taunting while I am on a roll. I realise ZOS designs encounters so that the tank not have to tank every enemy, which is why we have a single taunt. I realise some people think having AOE taunting will make things too easy and/or boring. Somehow pressing the same button 5 times every fight is more fun than doing it once and doing something else, I don't know. But I just wanted to bring that up again as a sore point. I would like an AOE taunt to be part of my arsenal. Make it short range, short duration, directional, expensive, whatever, but there needs to be one. At this stage I think it is one of the many reasons people avoid playing a tank and I am on the brink of getting sick of it myself.

ak_pvp

Solariken wrote: »

I actually don't think we're in a bad spot right now with tanking - it takes an appropriate amount of investment and you can still deal significant damage if you want.

Shield stacking is absolutely over-performing though and needs to be addressed. Sorc is a mobile class and should have to play to that strength, not face-tank damage with shields a mile thick. Instead of nerfing shields though, what we need is more soft counters to shields that make straight shield stacking redundant and not worthwhile. Maybe shock damage could interact with shields in some way, maybe dealing 20% of the absorbed damage to the shielders health like the electrical current is overloading the ward (just spit-balling).

Similarly, Cloak needs to be reworked. Invisibility and escape should be its function, not 100% DOT mitigation and empowering huge un-telegraphed bursts.

There are a multitude of other problems but those are definitely two of the most egregious.

If you try building for damage and defense in heavy you lose quite a bit of both unless you are running one of the stam sets, and even then you end up worse off than some of the other classes. Especially with this meta.

I kind of agree on the points relating to soft counters to shields, but they specifically aren't too strong, and neither is a sorcs mobility (I can outrun them and a single gapcloser takes care of streak) its just that shields allows you to keep both damage and mobility (relative to a tankier build) because its based on main stat and you don't have to spec into much other side defense for counters.

But I don't think its too strong per say. Just too simplistic. Lack of sacrifice makes it easy to run, but it still indeed does melt under pressure, harness in a 1v1 can end up being a hard counter though. Unlike cloak however. That *** is way too strong since it mitigates very nearly everything.

I don't however think that nerfing everything down as has happened to the other classes is fair. And nor do I think it will happen because the blades/sorcs are the most popular classes in the game. Hence, buffing other builds up to a usable level where they can function themselves in OW (a la NB) without relying on pocket healers or pocket damage and acting as a guard/CC bot.

leepalmer95

I thought this meta was run heavy armour with 35k and run in a zerg?

Shields scaling of magicka along with dmg is the same as Stamina increasing dmg but also heals as well.

You increase the stat pool and gain defensive bonuses in the form of bigger shields or bigger heals.

Heavy has some of the best dmg increasing sets in the game in the form of fury and 7th legion, heavy hardly loses any dmg at all.

You don't need to go out your way to 'build tanky either' Can literally just run 7th, bloodspawn and bone pirate and has just as much stats as any medium armour build while hitting over 30k armour with bloodspawn.

Most nb's are glass canons and for some reason people don't seem to want to use one of the multiple counters in the game for cloak. Aoe's, pots, magelight etc...

I carry detect pots on every character and don't struggle too much with nb's. The only ones i hate are the heavy armour ones that have 28k hp and are pretty much un burstable because like every heavy armour build if you lose line of sight, in this case cloak for 2s they usually heal to full. Plus they hit super hard still.

Savos_Saren

Honestly, if they wanted to make "stand-your-ground" an actual, viable thing- they could:

-Return the 200 stacking weap/spell damage to heavy armor (was called "Wrath")
-Put a 50% movement reduction when wearing heavy armor
-Add a 10% break free reduction

That way, it forces heavy armor wearers to stand-their-ground, allows them to maintain their tankiness, and gives them the opportunity to fight back when dealing with multiple opponents (without being too aggressive to chase).

IZZEFlameLash

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Honestly, if they wanted to make "stand-your-ground" an actual, viable thing- they could:

-Return the 200 stacking weap/spell damage to heavy armor (was called "Wrath")
-Put a 50% movement reduction when wearing heavy armor
-Add a 10% break free reduction

That way, it forces heavy armor wearers to stand-their-ground, allows them to maintain their tankiness, and gives them the opportunity to fight back when dealing with multiple opponents (without being too aggressive to chase).

That still won't stop this Defile+Bleed+Sload's meta and won't really allow for stand your ground playstyle to come back at all. It probably will make heavy less desireable in this game of mobility.

Savos_Saren

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Honestly, if they wanted to make "stand-your-ground" an actual, viable thing- they could:

-Return the 200 stacking weap/spell damage to heavy armor (was called "Wrath")
-Put a 50% movement reduction when wearing heavy armor
-Add a 10% break free reduction

That way, it forces heavy armor wearers to stand-their-ground, allows them to maintain their tankiness, and gives them the opportunity to fight back when dealing with multiple opponents (without being too aggressive to chase).

That still won't stop this Defile+Bleed+Sload's meta and won't really allow for stand your ground playstyle to come back at all. It probably will make heavy less desireable in this game of mobility.

Defile, you can survive through (heavy armor tanks naturally receive more healing). Bleed and Sload are the killers. They're both just bad mechanics in the first place. First- there is no magic-based equivalent of bleed. No magicka skills ignore all spell penetration. Sload is only bad because it stacks with other Sloads.

I still think that reduced movement speed with added defensive buffs (and one stacking offensive buff) would make PVP tanking more in line with what ZOS was striving to achieve. Classes shouldn't be "stand your ground". Tanking playstyle should be.

Tanks should draw aggro from enemies, be slow and survivable, and then be able to build pressure when assaulted by multiple opponents.

Remember the BlazePlars? That was a good style. They were slow, clunky, and couldn't do much damage alone... but if multiple people crowded them and started to assault... BOOM! They basically "drew aggro" (as much as you can in PVP) by pulling the aggression from uncoordinated PUGS.

VaranisArano

Savos_Saren wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Honestly, if they wanted to make "stand-your-ground" an actual, viable thing- they could:

-Return the 200 stacking weap/spell damage to heavy armor (was called "Wrath")
-Put a 50% movement reduction when wearing heavy armor
-Add a 10% break free reduction

That way, it forces heavy armor wearers to stand-their-ground, allows them to maintain their tankiness, and gives them the opportunity to fight back when dealing with multiple opponents (without being too aggressive to chase).

That still won't stop this Defile+Bleed+Sload's meta and won't really allow for stand your ground playstyle to come back at all. It probably will make heavy less desireable in this game of mobility.

Defile, you can survive through (heavy armor tanks naturally receive more healing). Bleed and Sload are the killers. They're both just bad mechanics in the first place. First- there is no magic-based equivalent of bleed. No magicka skills ignore all spell penetration. Sload is only bad because it stacks with other Sloads.

I still think that reduced movement speed with added defensive buffs (and one stacking offensive buff) would make PVP tanking more in line with what ZOS was striving to achieve. Classes shouldn't be "stand your ground". Tanking playstyle should be.

Tanks should draw aggro from enemies, be slow and survivable, and then be able to build pressure when assaulted by multiple opponents.

Remember the BlazePlars? That was a good style. They were slow, clunky, and couldn't do much damage alone... but if multiple people crowded them and started to assault... BOOM! They basically "drew aggro" (as much as you can in PVP) by pulling the aggression from uncoordinated PUGS.

I do remember the hey-day of the Blazeplars. Right before the Morrowind nerfs, in fact. Its almost like Blazeplars were one of the tanky builds ZOS set out to nerf.

Somehow, I don't think the PVP Devs want Blazeplars and their like to return anytime soon.

xericdx

Seems to me that tanky builds and heavy armour are in a decent spot at the moment, without being The Meta like last year. I still see lots of tanky specs with ok burst potential (Stamsorc, Dk, stamden, etc). Yes, they have to use Los more than before but does not seem bad at all to me.

Also, don't understand the comparison/problem with shield stacking. Even on my sorc I only use 2 shields only (one being healing ward), as many top sorcs do (am not saying I am one). Other class I avoid shields simply because I have better alternatives but anyone could use the double shields

Savos_Saren

VaranisArano wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Honestly, if they wanted to make "stand-your-ground" an actual, viable thing- they could:

-Return the 200 stacking weap/spell damage to heavy armor (was called "Wrath")
-Put a 50% movement reduction when wearing heavy armor
-Add a 10% break free reduction

That way, it forces heavy armor wearers to stand-their-ground, allows them to maintain their tankiness, and gives them the opportunity to fight back when dealing with multiple opponents (without being too aggressive to chase).

That still won't stop this Defile+Bleed+Sload's meta and won't really allow for stand your ground playstyle to come back at all. It probably will make heavy less desireable in this game of mobility.

Defile, you can survive through (heavy armor tanks naturally receive more healing). Bleed and Sload are the killers. They're both just bad mechanics in the first place. First- there is no magic-based equivalent of bleed. No magicka skills ignore all spell penetration. Sload is only bad because it stacks with other Sloads.

I still think that reduced movement speed with added defensive buffs (and one stacking offensive buff) would make PVP tanking more in line with what ZOS was striving to achieve. Classes shouldn't be "stand your ground". Tanking playstyle should be.

Tanks should draw aggro from enemies, be slow and survivable, and then be able to build pressure when assaulted by multiple opponents.

Remember the BlazePlars? That was a good style. They were slow, clunky, and couldn't do much damage alone... but if multiple people crowded them and started to assault... BOOM! They basically "drew aggro" (as much as you can in PVP) by pulling the aggression from uncoordinated PUGS.

I do remember the hey-day of the Blazeplars. Right before the Morrowind nerfs, in fact. Its almost like Blazeplars were one of the tanky builds ZOS set out to nerf.

Somehow, I don't think the PVP Devs want Blazeplars and their like to return anytime soon.

Why not? That was actually kind of a perfect build? They were slow and clunky. They drew "aggro" of PUGs. They didn't do a lot of damage until surrounded by people. It sounds like a proper tank. ZOS should allow all classes to have perks... but if you REALLY want to benefit from a heavy armor tank style- you should be slow and gain a damage benefit when you draw aggro from multiple opponents.

Since you remember the days of BlazePlars- remember what we used to do as a coordinated group? The group lead would say "ignore that tank- move on to the resource/keep/objective." All the other try-hards that were foolish enough to engage got wiped by the tank. It sounds like a fair trade-off.

As it stands- I think most classes could benefit from that sort of stand-your-ground AOE against multiple enemy playstyle:

-Templars: Blazing Shield build (benefits from heavy armor and health)
-Warden: Gripping Shards/Artic Blast (benefits from heavy armor and health)
-DK: Obsidian Shield/Inhale (potentially benefits from heavy armor and health)
-NB: Dark Cloak/Sap Essence (potentially benefits from heavy armor and health)
-Sorc: I wish I had a good example. But it would be nice to see a non-shield meta build around heavy armor, health, and AOE damage. Perhaps on the stamina sorc side?

Micah_Bayer

ak_pvp wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As you described, ZOS has been trying to deal with tanky 1vX builds that do high damage since Morrowind, when they decided that wasn't what they wanted to see in PVP. I doubt they'll let up until they feel they've succeeded.

It's harder to be tanky in medium or light armor. Why not just have heavy armor reduce the wearer's damage done by x% per piece of heavy armor worn? Always thought this would help reduce the "high damage" part of tanky 1vX builds.

That is like the exact opposite of my point. Its harder to be tanky, but mobile builds are much more survivable as is. Should we chop their damage because they can live longer and escape?

Heavy build's damage is already nearly too low. Only with fury/rav/7th it can get even near comparable.

I have 6k weapon dmg on my heavy stam sorc. I dont think that is low dmg. Tanky can be as scary as a sorc and NB

VaranisArano

Savos_Saren wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Honestly, if they wanted to make "stand-your-ground" an actual, viable thing- they could:

-Return the 200 stacking weap/spell damage to heavy armor (was called "Wrath")
-Put a 50% movement reduction when wearing heavy armor
-Add a 10% break free reduction

That way, it forces heavy armor wearers to stand-their-ground, allows them to maintain their tankiness, and gives them the opportunity to fight back when dealing with multiple opponents (without being too aggressive to chase).

That still won't stop this Defile+Bleed+Sload's meta and won't really allow for stand your ground playstyle to come back at all. It probably will make heavy less desireable in this game of mobility.

Defile, you can survive through (heavy armor tanks naturally receive more healing). Bleed and Sload are the killers. They're both just bad mechanics in the first place. First- there is no magic-based equivalent of bleed. No magicka skills ignore all spell penetration. Sload is only bad because it stacks with other Sloads.

I still think that reduced movement speed with added defensive buffs (and one stacking offensive buff) would make PVP tanking more in line with what ZOS was striving to achieve. Classes shouldn't be "stand your ground". Tanking playstyle should be.

Tanks should draw aggro from enemies, be slow and survivable, and then be able to build pressure when assaulted by multiple opponents.

Remember the BlazePlars? That was a good style. They were slow, clunky, and couldn't do much damage alone... but if multiple people crowded them and started to assault... BOOM! They basically "drew aggro" (as much as you can in PVP) by pulling the aggression from uncoordinated PUGS.

I do remember the hey-day of the Blazeplars. Right before the Morrowind nerfs, in fact. Its almost like Blazeplars were one of the tanky builds ZOS set out to nerf.

Somehow, I don't think the PVP Devs want Blazeplars and their like to return anytime soon.

Why not? That was actually kind of a perfect build? They were slow and clunky. They drew "aggro" of PUGs. They didn't do a lot of damage until surrounded by people. It sounds like a proper tank. ZOS should allow all classes to have perks... but if you REALLY want to benefit from a heavy armor tank style- you should be slow and gain a damage benefit when you draw aggro from multiple opponents.

Since you remember the days of BlazePlars- remember what we used to do as a coordinated group? The group lead would say "ignore that tank- move on to the resource/keep/objective." All the other try-hards that were foolish enough to engage got wiped by the tank. It sounds like a fair trade-off.

As it stands- I think most classes could benefit from that sort of stand-your-ground AOE against multiple enemy playstyle:

-Templars: Blazing Shield build (benefits from heavy armor and health)
-Warden: Gripping Shards/Artic Blast (benefits from heavy armor and health)
-DK: Obsidian Shield/Inhale (potentially benefits from heavy armor and health)
-NB: Dark Cloak/Sap Essence (potentially benefits from heavy armor and health)
-Sorc: I wish I had a good example. But it would be nice to see a non-shield meta build around heavy armor, health, and AOE damage. Perhaps on the stamina sorc side?

Heh, I still do the "ignore the tank" thing.

But my point is that whether or not tanky players like Blazeplars were effective against knowledgeable players, ZOS has gone out of their way to nerf tanky 1vX builds since Morrowind. Blazeplars were a deliberate victim of those nerfs.

I don't expect ZOS to change their mind when everything since Morrowind indicates that they don't want to empower the tanky, stand your ground, 1vX the PUGs playstyle.

NBrookus

Savos_Saren wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Honestly, if they wanted to make "stand-your-ground" an actual, viable thing- they could:

-Return the 200 stacking weap/spell damage to heavy armor (was called "Wrath")
-Put a 50% movement reduction when wearing heavy armor
-Add a 10% break free reduction

That way, it forces heavy armor wearers to stand-their-ground, allows them to maintain their tankiness, and gives them the opportunity to fight back when dealing with multiple opponents (without being too aggressive to chase).

That still won't stop this Defile+Bleed+Sload's meta and won't really allow for stand your ground playstyle to come back at all. It probably will make heavy less desireable in this game of mobility.

Defile, you can survive through (heavy armor tanks naturally receive more healing). Bleed and Sload are the killers. They're both just bad mechanics in the first place. First- there is no magic-based equivalent of bleed. No magicka skills ignore all spell penetration. Sload is only bad because it stacks with other Sloads.

I still think that reduced movement speed with added defensive buffs (and one stacking offensive buff) would make PVP tanking more in line with what ZOS was striving to achieve. Classes shouldn't be "stand your ground". Tanking playstyle should be.

Tanks should draw aggro from enemies, be slow and survivable, and then be able to build pressure when assaulted by multiple opponents.

Remember the BlazePlars? That was a good style. They were slow, clunky, and couldn't do much damage alone... but if multiple people crowded them and started to assault... BOOM! They basically "drew aggro" (as much as you can in PVP) by pulling the aggression from uncoordinated PUGS.

I do remember the hey-day of the Blazeplars. Right before the Morrowind nerfs, in fact. Its almost like Blazeplars were one of the tanky builds ZOS set out to nerf.

Somehow, I don't think the PVP Devs want Blazeplars and their like to return anytime soon.

Why not? That was actually kind of a perfect build? They were slow and clunky. They drew "aggro" of PUGs. They didn't do a lot of damage until surrounded by people. It sounds like a proper tank. ZOS should allow all classes to have perks... but if you REALLY want to benefit from a heavy armor tank style- you should be slow and gain a damage benefit when you draw aggro from multiple opponents.

Since you remember the days of BlazePlars- remember what we used to do as a coordinated group? The group lead would say "ignore that tank- move on to the resource/keep/objective." All the other try-hards that were foolish enough to engage got wiped by the tank. It sounds like a fair trade-off.

As it stands- I think most classes could benefit from that sort of stand-your-ground AOE against multiple enemy playstyle:

-Templars: Blazing Shield build (benefits from heavy armor and health)
-Warden: Gripping Shards/Artic Blast (benefits from heavy armor and health)
-DK: Obsidian Shield/Inhale (potentially benefits from heavy armor and health)
-NB: Dark Cloak/Sap Essence (potentially benefits from heavy armor and health)
-Sorc: I wish I had a good example. But it would be nice to see a non-shield meta build around heavy armor, health, and AOE damage. Perhaps on the stamina sorc side?

Because apparently a niche playstyle like sap tanks or blazeplars that is easily countered by a little battlefield experience is BAD, but uncounterable damage, combos and 1 second ganks from stealth are OKAY.

dodgehopper_ESO

I've already said there is way too much anti-Tank bias. I concur generally with your points.

IZZEFlameLash

Savos_Saren wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Honestly, if they wanted to make "stand-your-ground" an actual, viable thing- they could:

-Return the 200 stacking weap/spell damage to heavy armor (was called "Wrath")
-Put a 50% movement reduction when wearing heavy armor
-Add a 10% break free reduction

That way, it forces heavy armor wearers to stand-their-ground, allows them to maintain their tankiness, and gives them the opportunity to fight back when dealing with multiple opponents (without being too aggressive to chase).

That still won't stop this Defile+Bleed+Sload's meta and won't really allow for stand your ground playstyle to come back at all. It probably will make heavy less desireable in this game of mobility.

Defile, you can survive through (heavy armor tanks naturally receive more healing). Bleed and Sload are the killers. They're both just bad mechanics in the first place. First- there is no magic-based equivalent of bleed. No magicka skills ignore all spell penetration. Sload is only bad because it stacks with other Sloads.

I still think that reduced movement speed with added defensive buffs (and one stacking offensive buff) would make PVP tanking more in line with what ZOS was striving to achieve. Classes shouldn't be "stand your ground". Tanking playstyle should be.

Tanks should draw aggro from enemies, be slow and survivable, and then be able to build pressure when assaulted by multiple opponents.

Remember the BlazePlars? That was a good style. They were slow, clunky, and couldn't do much damage alone... but if multiple people crowded them and started to assault... BOOM! They basically "drew aggro" (as much as you can in PVP) by pulling the aggression from uncoordinated PUGS.

I would rather have block cost reduction back again than Wrath. And I still don't believe you can outdo defiles on you especially in CP. You are still losing heals by a lot even in heavy and Draconic Power passives. And to outdo it, you'd also need Fragmented Shield which costs a lot for HA builds. Even if Defile is handled, the other sources of damage such as bleeds will eat away your heals so much as they ignore resistance stats.

dodgehopper_ESO

Killset wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I miss pre-morrowind a lot. The era between one tamriel and homestead was really enjoyable, All we needed was a nerf to proc sets(and a few other overperforming things like black rose,malubeth or whatever, constution etc), and the CP nerfs were also nice, BUUUT , the nerfs to class passives were absolutely overkill.

I'm still trying to understand why zenimax hates stamina DK soooooo damn much though.(also stamplars but thats another story) Its not like they're trying to rebalance it or something. They're trying their absolute best to make it the most boring thing in existance. Why would you balance a class based on CP and sets anyways? I don't recall nightblades getting nerfed because of selene-viper meta... Its just unfair is what it is.

Nightblade sustain got decimated right alongside DK. Leaching strike is now a shadow of its former glory. The only class to escape that travesty was Sorc, with Dark Deal remaining untouched.

This is true and I can add my Nightblade Tank took a much bigger hit than my DPS did...

FrancisCrawford

Skoomah wrote: »

Find an elite Sorc to fight against. Shield stacking for days and then counters with enough burst to blow you up in 3 seconds flat.

No one fights outnumbered without stringing out people and using some sort of line of sight. Streak + Cloak + Resto Ult + Crazy Burst DPS gets the kill. I see it all the time.

I can see why an opponent who equips both Streak and Dark Cloak could be hard to kill.

dodgehopper_ESO

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP is right but it's just accepted that is how MMOs and fantasy RPGs in general work.

Think about it, the whole idea of having a role dubbed the "tank" that does little damage when actual historical tanks also have devastating firepower is silly.

How it's supposed to work is that "DPS" specs, when caught and subjected to strong attack, should not be able to withstand it, hence the idea of a "glass cannon." But the way ESO works, is while DPS specs can't resist such attacks, they can without too much trouble avoid them. So they can have it both ways: effective power and survivability, albeit through different means than the "tanks."

Unless the DPS specs are willing to accept a nerf to their ability to avoid incoming damage or the community in general is willing to accept that fantasy "tanks" should resemble historical tanks and combine resilience and firepower, the playstyle of "hold your ground" will remain cute and niche as opposed to efficient and versatile.

ESO is not a game where you can apply the holy trinity of heal-dd-tank though.( I mean sure in PvE it barely functions but even then we roll through most vet dungeons with 4 DDs) Especially not in PvP where everybody has the damage, heals, and the tankyness.

And besides, if real life is concerned, heavy armor is pretty realistic I would say. In a real medieval battle you would be suicidal to not take some proper plate armor, and a pretty big round helmet, supported by probably some mail armor inside.

Anyways, back to the topic and game meta, those ''DPS specs'' are dominant in numbers because people go where the grass is green.
The ''stand your whatever'' playstyle got soo many different nerfs that it has gotten to a ridicilous point where SnB Dks/templars are running 3 swift+ expedition so that they can be discount nightblades/sorcs.

If zenimax is afraid that their willy nilly dps players might Ragequit, I don't know what to say though. The best they could do is at least offer a class change token so the message can be clear.

This is a load of ***. Mierda. ***. *** Material. Bull puckey. Crap.

The game literally requires a full on Tank in certain parts of this game. That's a fact jack and the sooner you accept that fact the sooner you realize why it is unfair that Tanks have to deal with this ***. A legitimate tank is really only useful for a few things. Carrying the chaos ball, niche pvp team uses & Trials. That's about it. It is a low reward class spec that essentially means you play other characters to be your moneymakers. They could easily solve this problem by offering us alternate specs for our characters (CP/Skillpoint/morphs/Attributes). Click a button and blam you're ready to actually be a normal character. Click another button and you can be a tank. As it stands though I'm tired of hearing this cockamamy argument that Tanks don't exist in ESO. You people don't know what you're talking about.

dodgehopper_ESO

NBrookus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Actually, you shouldn’t be able to indiscriminately hold your ground without sacrificing a lot. You can easily stand your ground against 4++ players who are worse than you and even against 2 players of your skill level. It’s not ok to just be able to tank an unlimited number and then be able to get kills also, that’s not even remotely balanced and would then disqualify every single other playstyle available.

There just needs to be less incentive to dog pile on already outnumbered players.

So this counts for shield and cloak spamming too right?

Shield stacking is the absolute worse defensive tool to use when outnumbered.

Blocking and wings and self-healing are pretty lousy outnumbered too. The only thing that aren't are dodge and cloak, and stamblade gets to have both plus loads of upfront burst. And if nightblade wants to complain about sustain, my DK will trade you Battleroar for Refreshing Shadows in heartbeat.

If this game is to have a true roll for tank/heavy fighter/berserker style, then the pure dps classes need to get a LOT squishier so that they NEED tanks and healers to mitigate and cure damage in order to survive. But that is at odds with solo overland content, so we'll never see it.

This is why I think Shield Size should not spec off of how high your magic pool is. This is also why I think Rage ought to be part of the Tank build. The longer the tank is in the fight the harder he should hit. I've seen this mechanic in other games and it is pretty fair in those games. The way they pull the dials and levers will determine if they can make it balanced in this game. I know there were problems in the past with a similar heavy armor passive for a time. As it stands though Heavy Armor is generally an inferior armor type right now.

dodgehopper_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

The worst change ZoS did was to remove stam recovery while blocking... they could have perfectly reduced the recovery on a half while blocking. Anyway, no reason complaining about that at this point, it is what it is.

What is hard to understand is the philosophy in ZoS decisions regarding how classes should be played. Originally it was high risk, high reward for the so called glass cannons, and low risk, low reward for the so called tanks, and it made perfect sense at some point. The problem is that, in practice, that philosophy shifted to low risk, high reward for glass cannons (due mostly the tools they have to avoid damage) , and high risk, low reward for tanks (because they haven't change the "stay your ground" focus, but they have also nerfed all those "stay your ground" utilities, while adding some other utilities that directly affect that playing style, like resource poisons and oblivion dmg just to name two of them).

From that analysis, we can infere 2 things:

1- The glass cannon style requires perfect use of elements that depends mainly on class skills. Any Sorc or NB just need to slot streak-shields/shade-cloak to make use of the mitigation they are provided. Of course, it requieres practice and it is not 100% reliable, but it is enough to make the playing style... let say viable. Having that (which provides enough mitigation to the playing style) you can build towards sustain and dmg (yes, both). And of course, they need to learnd their class. At the end it is a L2P issue.

2- The tanky style requieres certain specific elements to work, which, sometimes, are not available or easy to get, such as immo pots, mitigation sets, self heals (in the case of stamDK the self heals are laughable) or in the worst case a pocket healer. Once they have got that, they can start building towards sustain or dmg, but no both, because you already had to invest into mitigation.

Comparing both playing styles, one which requires just skills asociated to the class (and the right management of it) and the other that requires a great deal of elements outside the class (and the right management of them) it's quite clear to point out which one will give you a larger % of success.

I want to point out that everyone of us makes that analysis when chosing a class to build or a class to chose on PvP. This is not something I've invented, it's just picture of what you see on cyro nowadays. If somebody says this is not true then s/he's blatantly liying

I agree with you. All they had to do was reduce stamina regeneration not shut it off. Simultaneously they could have also lowered what shield blocking actually resists a little bit.

Gprime31

Just revert to 1.6, cut your losses and try again