Dubhliam wrote: »

So, they wreck people in PvP.

One of the best tanks.

One of the best healers.

Got damage.

L
2
P

Isn't 16k penetration a bit much? Kinda sad that cheesing a test only gets you 45k..

Not the best tank, close but nope. Most definitely not the best heals by far.

Garbage dps that relys on a ulti pet that dies easier than a Sorc pet.

I would never pay for a class change token for a class I already paid for.

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

I think some of the issues for why, is because if they buff the warden to be better in pve, it'll make the warden OP in pvp. Then everyone will be crying about that next.

That used to be the case when cliff race was undodgeable and shalks stunned. Cliff racer is now dodgeable and shalks no longer stun now. Magicka warden is currently the worst PvP class as well.

But even at that time, balancing the two modes would be quite simple. PvE DPS relies on DoT damage while PvP DPS relies on burst damage. Buff DoTs for a PvE DPS boost that doesnt inpact PvP.

Turelus wrote: »

Can't make it good or the P2W crowd from beta will come back and make sure it gets nerfed down again.

Personally I think the issue it suffers is they tried to make it the jack of all trades/support in a game where role focus is very important (PvE), I guess they'll eventually get to it but I think the class is going to need a pretty big sweeping pass to really iron out the issues.

I'd like to get a token to change my Temp to a DK or Warden. Templar has long since jumped the shark and I'm tired of even trying. I know you can kill with the Temp, I just don't like what it has become and honestly it is nothing like what I started with.

Dubhliam wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

So, they wreck people in PvP.

One of the best tanks.

One of the best healers.

Got damage.

L
2
P

Second best tank.

Second best healer.

Worst DPS.

No reason to use one in endgame PvE, as we can see from their virtual non-existence on leader boards.

Actually, it is not second best healer.
It is THE best healer.
Templars are just much more easier to play.

The same to the extent can be said about tanking.

So you have a class that is the BEST tank, the BEST healer, and has tons od DPS, enough for any kind of content, leaderboard or not.

Masking your ridiculous demands for buffs behind "I paid for it" excuses is P2W logic, not balance.

If they were the best, they would be used in endgame content. Endgame players are the most skilled players. They don't care about ease of use. They care about effectiveness. Warden heals need to be aimed and/or are delayed. Templar is a superior option.

And their DPS is barely competitive with the other classes when you slot a single target pet ultimate on both bars (it's still lower than any other class, but it's within the same range as templar). When you swap out the bear for destro ultimate, their DPS doesn't even come close to the other classes.

I'm not asking for wardens to be the best class. I'm asking for them not to be the worst. I didn't pay fpr a class that is useless in most content. I paid for a class that should be useful in endgame content.

Ender1310 wrote: »

So, I made a frostden using winter born and necromance set and im loving life. Don't see what so bad about them. Using nereninth cause my favorite and the whole tool set just gels. I'm pulling 30k single target boss fights. Groups I can spike up to 60 and 70 k so I dunno.

Other classes simply deal more damage and/or provide group utility. They can also use AOE ultimates.

- Wardens have the lowest DPS
- Wardens provide no group utility (no group buffs or target debuffs)
- Wardens have to double bar a single target ultimate and cannot use destro ultimate

You can complete all content with a DPS warden, it's just extremely inefficient.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS has refused to buff the warden for 14 straight months now. It's still the most underrepresented class in endgame (2.7% compared to 20-25% for every other class).

Considering we paid real money for this class, could we please get a class change token so we can switch to something more effective? It's obvious you have no plans to ever buff the class, so we need some type of alternative customer service.

Thanks.

They can only get a sex change one as far as I know.

Tryxus wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

If they were the best, they would be used. Warden heals need to be aimed and/or are delayed. Tenplar is a superior option.

And their DPS is lower than any other class when you slot a single target pet ultimate on both bars. When you swap the bear for destro ult, their DPS doesn't even come close to the other classes.

It's true.

You need the bear to make good DPS with a Warden.
It is your own choice not to use it.

Personally, I love that player in my trial group that just wrecks everything with his mag warden in his Master Architect buff build.

And as I said, templars are not superior, they are simply easier to play.
A skilled Warden healer is the best thing any trial group could wish for.

The only real problem I see with Warden class is that the "meta" will never allow for duplicate Wardens in a trial.
So no double Warden tanks, or double Warden healers.

And this fact makes people stay away from Wardens because they feel more comfortable in their established Templar healer or Dragonknight tank roles.
We all know it's hard to always have the same people in the group for every trial, so bringing a Warden might be considered a liability.

However, if we were to construct a "perfect" trial group, I would definitely vote for 1 Warden tank, 1 DK tank, 1 Warden healer, 1 Templar healer, 1 Warden mag DD and rest free for all.
Edit: my perfect trial group also needs 1 mag sorc fro the LL synergy

I love this post so much Just curous tho, does your perfect trial group also have a StamPlar?

I'm actually in a trial guild that has a setup like this (minus the MagDen DPS) and it works great really. Wardens really do make fantastic tanks and healers (tho healing needs some "fine-tuning") that are just as capable as DKs and Templar respectively.

Sure, if possible one stamplar for the Minor Fracture and Breach.
Although, I am guessing that player would need to have something other than a stamplar for specific trials where stamina DDs don't do so good, such as Asylum.

Dubhliam wrote: »

The only real problem I see with Warden class is that the "meta" will never allow for duplicate Wardens in a trial.
So no double Warden tanks, or double Warden healers.

And this fact makes people stay away from Wardens because they feel more comfortable in their established Templar healer or Dragonknight tank roles.
We all know it's hard to always have the same people in the group for every trial, so

Basically this, though I would take it a bit further.

The notion that "if warden were good they would be played more" is only really an effective argument if we ignore that our entire play-style and meta has been created around DK tank and Templar healer. ESO was released with a largely open group composition with no list anywhere of role responsibilities. In that time there were clear winners for each role. DK tank was the only tanking class available with essentially endless regen along with the only class with crowd control like claw and chains. Templar healer was the ONLY class with a burst heal, built in purify and regen support. We saw these strengths in these classes and we used those strengths.

But we were essentially pigeonholed into using the skills from each class that were available at the time. In recent times ZOS is working hard to open up the meta to other classes. Examples: All healers getting access to burst heals (albeit with different flavours), buffed regen from orbs, all tanks getting access to regen skills (meditate) and chains etc. Is ZOS succeeding in making all classes equally viable in all settings? Sometimes, but I sympathize with them. The challenge is, how far do you go to homogenize classes in order to fulfill role expectations when you run the real risk of taking away class individuality?

And despite the reality that most classes can effectively run any content in any context while offering unique strengths, we are clinging to an old meta and to those old classes' strengths. When we go to build an effective tank these days, we look at the skills that a DK would use and try to fill the holes left behind with "x-class" equivalents, rather than looking at the class with fresh eyes. We even do this with gear. I've seen so many warden tanks run Bloodspawn (which is a solid set, don't get me wrong). Of course your Warden tank is not going to get as much benefit from an ulti-spam set as a DK would. And then I see these players complaining about how warden doesn't have the same tankiness as DKs when I see an obvious solution *facepalm* We need to look at our builds with fresh eyes and holistically from the ground up.

The real challenge begins when we create something that is SO far off meta that we trade responsibilities. If we build to play to our unique strength, whatever that may be... maybe we have high recovery (as a warden does) and can sustain wall of lightning for crusher enchant uptime and concussion. Suddenly our healers don't need to run wall of elements. No matter what that strength is, it creates a ripple effect. And if we don't compensate accordingly elsewhere in our team we end up with 4 people running wall of elements for concussion when we could trade that fourth wall for another group utility or strength somewhere else. And so, it requires not just breaking the meta, but the coordination and a complete overhaul of multiple builds, which is a lot harder to work out even in a tight core group. Humans are lazy by nature. If the benefit isn't life changing, we'll take the easy way out every time. And that "way out" is DK tank.

I think this is the mindset that we have to approach warden from, and I suspect it's one of the reasons that Warden has not yet been buffed. I think they are actually very strong, just not when put into a DK shaped slot. We are not utilizing them to their full potential.

I don't speak for this player at all I'm sure he has his own opinion and likely its vastly different from mine, but one of the players who really affected me was @Liofa . I encourage people to waltz over to his youtube channel to learn about warden tanks. His videos are extremely informative and think outside the meta box as far as tanking utility. I found not just the information in his videos insightful, but also his thinking process for both his Summerset build and earlier build videos.

Would rather get some buffs in the form of some animal companion adjustments and a winters embrace tree complete overhaul than a class change token... I’ve played every class both mag and stam and Magden is what I enjoy most

The devs are very careful of making something P2W.
And we should be thankful for that, and be careful what we wish for.

I like their policy on Cash purchases, and wouldn't want it to change.

That being said, I don't think Wardens are that bad.

They are the only class that can do all roles very well.
They have flavor.

I have seen good Warden players perform great in both PvP and PvE.
I have also seen terrible magsorcs.
I have also seen terrible magblades.
And even horrible stamblades.

The "meta" is a state of mind. It is made by older, more experienced players that have been around for a long time, and are more attached to their older characters than their Wardens.

Everybody was disappointed when they paid for a new toy, and it didn't live up to their old toy.

Guess what?
Just because you're used to driving an automatic vehicle, doesn't mean driving a stick is somehow worse.
If you take the effort of actually learning to drive a stick, you'll find that you'll soon be doing laps on a racing track.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

The devs are very careful of making something P2W.
And we should be thankful for that, and be careful what we wish for.

I like their policy on Cash purchases, and wouldn't want it to change.

That being said, I don't think Wardens are that bad.

They are the only class that can do all roles very well.
They have flavor.

I have seen good Warden players perform great in both PvP and PvE.
I have also seen terrible magsorcs.
I have also seen terrible magblades.
And even horrible stamblades.

The "meta" is a state of mind. It is made by older, more experienced players that have been around for a long time, and are more attached to their older characters than their Wardens.

Everybody was disappointed when they paid for a new toy, and it didn't live up to their old toy.

Guess what?
Just because you're used to driving an automatic vehicle, doesn't mean driving a stick is somehow worse.
If you take the effort of actually learning to drive a stick, you'll find that you'll soon be doing laps on a racing track.

Wardens are terrible at DPS and good at healing and tanking (but not the best at either role). Being terrible at DPS is what hurts their representation the most as there are 8 DPS slots on a trial roster, and you are severely gimping the team's performance by putting a warden in any of those slots. And not being the best healer/tank means they rarely get to take one of those 4 slots (DK and temper are simply better).

The meta is not rigid at all. It will accept any class/build that is effective (that's the entire purpose of the meta). New classes in WoW and GW2, for example, see normal endgame usage rates. In ESO, the warden is at 2.7%...

Define terrible.

45k+ DPS is not terrible by my standards.