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[Class Rep] Tanking Feedback Thread

  • ZeroXFF
    ZeroXFF
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

    There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

    (5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

    (5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

    (5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

    (5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

    (5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

    Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

    These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    ✭✭✭
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

    There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

    (5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

    (5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

    (5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

    (5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

    (5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

    Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

    These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.

    Thennnnnn don't wear them?

    I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?
    0331
    0602
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    It put a spotlight on the game and at least half of Everquest's entire player base jumped ship and played WOW when it was finally released. A year later Everquest was for all intents and purposes a dead game. Furor btw, was a warrior.

    game going in the same direction because it seems nobody has figured out that support is NOT fun.

    LOL no-one in WOW suggests levelling as a tank build/gear so you bring up the exact argument against what you are suggesting. Protection warriors are a joke in PVP. A tank warrior in defensive stance gets a -15% damage and +30% (don't remember the exact numbers) threat generation and hit like an absolute wet noodle. You brought up the exact worst possible example you could. Well done.

    For those who don't know: In that game for PVP you go Arms warrior (2handed), for PVE you go fury (dual-weild) and for tanking you go (1hand+board) and if you level you DO NOT go Protection because its so much slower. You wear a separate set of DPS gear for solo at end level and you re-skill if you go PVP. Again, well done sir, well done.

    Now stop derailing this discussion. Tanks should tank and this is what this discussion is about. If I want to level fast I wear tanking gear and run dungeons - lvl 50 in days. If I want to do quests while levelling I don't wear tanking gear/skills. Once I am at CP level I wear a set of DPS gear and have around 10k dps which is on a 3mill dummy and the trash for quests and delves melts because their HP is so low. I swap gear with a click of a button and it takes up 14 slots of my 200 inventory bag. I PVP without swapping a single one of my skills and, again, only swap gear. Grow a pair and be a real tank.

    Sigh... Now to talking tanking....

    I actually recommend if you want to level a tank that you play BG's and cyrodiil, and do enough dungeons to get some skills and passives.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • ZeroXFF
    ZeroXFF
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

    There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

    (5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

    (5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

    (5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

    (5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

    (5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

    Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

    These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.

    Thennnnnn don't wear them?

    I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?

    That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    ✭✭✭
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

    There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

    (5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

    (5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

    (5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

    (5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

    (5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

    Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

    These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.

    Thennnnnn don't wear them?

    I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?

    That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.

    And if set bonuses as such were introduced into the game, what exactly would you be compromising now? Ebon/Alky will always be a safe bet. A main tank capable of pulling 10k DPS is going to sacrifice a whole lot of protection and survivability in favor of some very powerful buffs/debuffs.

    The trade off is minimal, but favors tanks who have the experience to take a more aggressive posture.
    0331
    0602
  • ZeroXFF
    ZeroXFF
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

    There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

    (5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

    (5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

    (5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

    (5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

    (5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

    Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

    These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.

    Thennnnnn don't wear them?

    I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?

    That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.

    And if set bonuses as such were introduced into the game, what exactly would you be compromising now? Ebon/Alky will always be a safe bet. A main tank capable of pulling 10k DPS is going to sacrifice a whole lot of protection and survivability in favor of some very powerful buffs/debuffs.

    The trade off is minimal, but favors tanks who have the experience to take a more aggressive posture.

    Tanks shouldn't sacrifice anything to be doing 10k DPS, it should be normal regardless of the gear used. The way it is now is just bad design that is the reason there are so few tanks. Nobody wants to level one because they can't kill anything.

    And the Alkosh tank meta is the reason Alkosh should be changed to only benefit the wearer (and then also buffed), or give major/minor resist debuffs instead, the same way it was done with Sunderflame and NMG. As for Ebon, it's hardly that "aggressive posture" you're asking for. But yeah, it should be changed in some way too, because regardless of what other cool sets get introduced, trial groups will demand that at least one tank wears it.

    There are plenty of interesting tanking sets, and all of them should be valid options if they fit the specific build, but currently this is not the case. This will only be achieved if the only buffs tanks give come from their skills, or if the defenses are always on the same level (with varying effectiveness depending on build), and there are only some additional group buffs given by some sets on top of the full defensive benefit. People who chose to play the designated defensive role should not compromise on the defenses, because maximizing survival is the fun part of being a tank, not increasing numbers on someone else's screen.
    Edited by ZeroXFF on July 15, 2018 12:44AM
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    ✭✭✭
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

    There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

    (5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

    (5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

    (5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

    (5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

    (5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

    Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

    These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.

    Thennnnnn don't wear them?

    I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?

    That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.

    And if set bonuses as such were introduced into the game, what exactly would you be compromising now? Ebon/Alky will always be a safe bet. A main tank capable of pulling 10k DPS is going to sacrifice a whole lot of protection and survivability in favor of some very powerful buffs/debuffs.

    The trade off is minimal, but favors tanks who have the experience to take a more aggressive posture.

    Tanks shouldn't sacrifice anything to be doing 10k DPS, it should be normal regardless of the gear used. The way it is now is just bad design that is the reason there are so few tanks. Nobody wants to level one because they can't kill anything.

    And the Alkosh tank meta is the reason Alkosh should be changed to only benefit the wearer (and then also buffed), or give major/minor resist debuffs instead, the same way it was done with Sunderflame and NMG. As for Ebon, it's hardly that "aggressive posture" you're asking for. But yeah, it should be changed in some way too, because regardless of what other cool sets get introduced, trial groups will demand that at least one tank wears it.

    There are plenty of interesting tanking sets, and all of them should be valid options if they fit the specific build, but currently this is not the case. This will only be achieved if the only buffs tanks give come from their skills, or if the defenses are always the same, and there are only some additional group buffs given by some sets. People who chose to play the designated defensive role should not compromise on the defenses, because maximizing survival is the fun part of being a tank, not increasing numbers on someone else's screen.

    Okay, I think I understand your gripe now as I originally misunderstood it. You would like to see the roles between Healer/Tank/DPS be less spread and more generalized, having gear and CP to fine tune those roles instead of being the basis of those roles.

    Understandable, but I utterly fail to see how that's relevant at all to my post which addresses absolutely none of your gripes to begin with. If you think it's a bad idea in the context of what it could theoretically be implemented into now (aka PTS) then tell me why. Saying "this is bad direction, here's my personal preference" (esp one that is way outside of the current scope of the game) is absolutely meaningless for me and others who read our conversation because you are attempting to compare two outcomes that have nowhere near the amount of information available as to how they would play. Whilst mine uses the existing game structure to support new methods and alternatives in tanking, yours is a whole new game design that is not currently witnessed by any means in ESO.

    I don't agree at all and don't really care to explore your desire for future tanking at all, so it's probably best you target or tag someone like @Liofa who might be more receptive to your ideas.
    0331
    0602
  • ZeroXFF
    ZeroXFF
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.

    There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:

    (5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.

    (5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.

    (5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.

    (5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.

    (5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.

    Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.

    These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.

    Thennnnnn don't wear them?

    I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?

    That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.

    And if set bonuses as such were introduced into the game, what exactly would you be compromising now? Ebon/Alky will always be a safe bet. A main tank capable of pulling 10k DPS is going to sacrifice a whole lot of protection and survivability in favor of some very powerful buffs/debuffs.

    The trade off is minimal, but favors tanks who have the experience to take a more aggressive posture.

    Tanks shouldn't sacrifice anything to be doing 10k DPS, it should be normal regardless of the gear used. The way it is now is just bad design that is the reason there are so few tanks. Nobody wants to level one because they can't kill anything.

    And the Alkosh tank meta is the reason Alkosh should be changed to only benefit the wearer (and then also buffed), or give major/minor resist debuffs instead, the same way it was done with Sunderflame and NMG. As for Ebon, it's hardly that "aggressive posture" you're asking for. But yeah, it should be changed in some way too, because regardless of what other cool sets get introduced, trial groups will demand that at least one tank wears it.

    There are plenty of interesting tanking sets, and all of them should be valid options if they fit the specific build, but currently this is not the case. This will only be achieved if the only buffs tanks give come from their skills, or if the defenses are always the same, and there are only some additional group buffs given by some sets. People who chose to play the designated defensive role should not compromise on the defenses, because maximizing survival is the fun part of being a tank, not increasing numbers on someone else's screen.

    Okay, I think I understand your gripe now as I originally misunderstood it. You would like to see the roles between Healer/Tank/DPS be less spread and more generalized, having gear and CP to fine tune those roles instead of being the basis of those roles.

    Understandable, but I utterly fail to see how that's relevant at all to my post which addresses absolutely none of your gripes to begin with. If you think it's a bad idea in the context of what it could theoretically be implemented into now (aka PTS) then tell me why. Saying "this is bad direction, here's my personal preference" (esp one that is way outside of the current scope of the game) is absolutely meaningless for me and others who read our conversation because you are attempting to compare two outcomes that have nowhere near the amount of information available as to how they would play. Whilst mine uses the existing game structure to support new methods and alternatives in tanking, yours is a whole new game design that is not currently witnessed by any means in ESO.

    I don't agree at all and don't really care to explore your desire for future tanking at all, so it's probably best you target or tag someone like @Liofa who might be more receptive to your ideas.

    I've voiced the same concerns in this thread before, and also on the tank discord. The reason I'm tagging you is because I disagree with having pure buff sets that are supposed to be worn by tanks that don't give any benefits to the tank himself.

    As for it being outside of the scope of the current game, well, should I again point at how few tanks there are?
  • Liofa
    Liofa
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    ✭✭
    Hello everyone! I must say, every single comment made in this thread is highly appreciated. I read this thread as a whole several times already ^^ I am currently refining all the feedback I gathered for the internal meeting I'll be having with other Class Reps to decide what is most important and center of attention so that we can have a proper meeting with the Devs. So basically, these last few days are your only chance to say what you want until the next Dev Meeting. If you want your voice heard through Class Reps, make sure to comment what your concerns are. Of course I am mainly talking about Wolfhunter stuff. Talk about the new and reworked sets, general game mechanics, your experiences in PTS, what bothered you and of course Bug Reports.

    Again, thank you for every comment you posted in this thread and keep in mind that you can tag me here if you want to ask anything. You will get an answer the same day if not in the next few hours.
  • I_B_Squishy
    I_B_Squishy
    ✭✭✭
    I think too much emphasis is on tank sustain and not enough on making a tank more fun to play..............

    If you have max resists, strudy trait, and stam reduction enchants your sustain should be fine with any class *if* you're not just holding block for entire encounters.

    Forget Alkosh, let a DD use it instead. I'm tired of being a buff/debuff bot.

    I want new players to level as TANKS. Give sword and shield an AOE taunt that does great damage. Make inner fire a sick DOT. Make both scale off max HEALTH.

    Hold on, someone suggested before that the entire sword and board line scale off health, MAKE IT SO.

  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    Alkosh is a bit finicky to use on DD, it probably played a part in why tanks use it. Limited range, so often DD would find it hard to both have synergy to use, and being positioned properly for Alkosh to be effective - makes for low uptimes.

    Maybe a different approach? Make tanking more fun through dungeon/trial mechanics, where tanks would do more than just surviving? Juggling twins in MoL or waltzing automatons in synchrony (HoF) to break force fields with electric arc feel like fun sort of tanking, in my head at least. Might make one feel more in strategic role, rather than just holding boss, not dying and debuffing everything.
  • I_B_Squishy
    I_B_Squishy
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    Alkosh is a bit finicky to use on a tank, I lose 20k+ health by putting it on.

    Twins in MOL and automatons in HOF is fun if you're in a high end guild, but the other 98% will probably find it too difficult if they even see it at all. Not everyone has the patience to learn encounters and fail. I remember hitting HOF with a 4 man group because my guild wasn't big enough at that time to do HOF. We learned the mechanics and eventually did HOF regularly when we got big enough, but going to dungeons and failing is *not* fun.

    High end players don't seem to recognize that encounters that involve mechanics alienate a huge percentage of the player base.

  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    Well, Alkosh certainly wasn't -meant- to be a tanking set, that's true; its intended use is to be a DD set. But it failed at that, so maybe it's just an all-around bad set that was brought on the forefront by overall weird state of things with roles. (And with NMG/Sunderflame updates, I fear it's even less likely to change soon.)

    As for mechanics, it was just an example of one alternative way to make tanking more fun without involving damage functions. Doesn't have to be that complicated, or even specifically in trials. I'd really like to see more 4-person dungeons where tanks would participate in solving puzzles - some dungeons with simple puzzles, some harder, but with common point of making tank key part of strategy. It'd also be a nice diversion from a trend where a team of DDs is capable of burning through most dungeons and bypass mechanics altogether.
  • paulychan
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    As a health tank, I would love it if heavy attacks ate stamina rather than sustain it. In most games, those types of attacks cost resources. In this game, they replenish. I’m use to it by now but, it just isn’t logical. Tanks have little time in end game to ha for sustain so I simply don’t.

    That being said, I don’t have to because I’m an argonian dk, I’m just wondering if this has been discussed? Sustain is weird in this game. Doable, but weird. Also, being able to ignore sustain altogether as an arg dk seems to break that system.
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    @Liofa

    My main 'beef' with tanking is class balance. There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials. The easiest classes to play are also the most effective - there is no risk/reward here, quite the opposite in fact. The toughest class to play in a role, should also perform the best.

    Secondly it's fun. I used to play a sap tank. This style was a lot of fun and it was effectively removed with Morrowind. It was not better than a DK, they were still wanted for trials. It was fairly well balanced and a unique way of tanking. I was very disapointed ZoS did not respond to the huge number of threads on these forums when an entire role was effectively removed from a class, nor did anything to return it. Same applies to templars. The complete lack of non-DK/warden tanks from finder has made it very stale and somewhat boring. Alarm bells should of been ringing, and this should of been fixed (before it went live). Other things that come under the category of fun are not being told which sets to wear, and feeling 'useful' to the group.

    Thanks for your time
    Edited by aeowulf on July 18, 2018 7:46AM
  • Liofa
    Liofa
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    aeowulf wrote: »

    My main 'beef' with tanking is class balance. There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials. The easiest classes to play are also the most effective - there is no risk/reward here, quite the opposite in fact. The toughest class to play in a role, should also perform the best.

    Secondly it's fun. I used to play a sap tank. This style was a lot of fun and it was effectively removed with Morrowind. It was not better than a DK, they were still wanted for trials. It was fairly well balanced and a unique way of tanking. I was very disapointed ZoS did not respond to the huge number of threads on these forums when an entire role was effectively removed from a class, nor did anything to return it. Same applies to templars. The complete lack of non-DK/warden tanks from finder has made it very stale and somewhat boring. Alarm bells should of been ringing, and this should of been fixed (before it went live). Other things that come under the category of fun are not being told which sets to wear, and feeling 'useful' to the group.

    Thanks for your time

    Yeah I can confirm that a lot of endgame tanks think the same. In the Discord channel (also in-game and other discords), I spoke with many endgame tanks and some said that they would play Nightblade, some said Sorcerer and some Wardens, some Templars. People definitely want to play different classes but are stuck with DK due to Engulfing Flames buff which is already in the Meeting Notes. We will see how things will change, or if they will change at all.

    As everyone know, all classes are viable as tanks in 4 man content but when it comes to optimising a group, DK Tank with Engulfing Flames is a must.

    I also understand the Sap Tank issue. If I remember correctly, the fact that Sap Tank is not effective anymore is already in Meeting Notes and we are again waiting for a change to that issue.

    When it comes to the gear diversity, my opinion is that we are way too tanky thanks to CP. That makes us not need self-defensive sets so we are pushed into using support sets like Alkosh, Sunderflame etc. having set bonuses that have nothing to do with tanking. I think the main problem lies there. Back then, we had to invest in tankiness and sustain with different gear sets like Hist/Footman/Engine Guardian (this was actually meta years ago for tanks) because we simply needed them. Now, we are tankier than before in medium armour and having infinite sustain without even investing in it. Every patch makes us tankier with extra CP and gives more sustain. When you look at Psijic Order skill line, we get Major Protection on demand while getting 4k resources a second if you don't also count the heal. That's absolutely insane. These type of things are the stuff that makes tanks be forced into running support sets. I don't die in support setup and my team is so much better with it. I don't die in self protection setup but my team is weaker. See what I mean, there's the problem right there.
  • BejaProphet
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    @Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.
    aeowulf wrote: »
    There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

    It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

    The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

    The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

    My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.

    This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.
  • Liofa
    Liofa
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    This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.

    I share this feel as well. I kinda fear that they will make some change we never wanted or asked for instead of a proper Engulfing Flames fix. People who main DK should still be able to play it. Everyone should be able to play their main class as a tank in any content, whether it be score runs or 4 man stuff. I'll push on this and try to make sure they understand what we need to see instead of some blanket nerf.
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    @Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.
    aeowulf wrote: »
    There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

    It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

    The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

    The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

    Half the battle is actually perception, sites like Woeler/Alcast etc list (or listed) only DK/Warden as trials-suitable tanks. Someone reads this and immediately assumes the other classes are not suitable. Just because <they> can't make an alternative class work in a trial role does not mean it's not possible for someone else, but as these builders are very well respected most will assume other classes are not trials-suitable. A 1% gap betwen two classes is easily made up in skill, but there is not a 1% difference between DK & NB when tanking, it's noticably bigger and i doubt i'd notice 1%. Look at finder, how often do you see a DK/Warden tank vs any other class in that role??! That just highlights there is a balance, difficulty or maybe just fun issue there with those classes (in that role).
  • BejaProphet
    BejaProphet
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    aeowulf wrote: »
    @Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.
    aeowulf wrote: »
    There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

    It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

    The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

    The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

    Half the battle is actually perception, sites like Woeler/Alcast etc list (or listed) only DK/Warden as trials-suitable tanks. Someone reads this and immediately assumes the other classes are not suitable. Just because <they> can't make an alternative class work in a trial role does not mean it's not possible for someone else, but as these builders are very well respected most will assume other classes are not trials-suitable. A 1% gap betwen two classes is easily made up in skill, but there is not a 1% difference between DK & NB when tanking, it's noticably bigger and i doubt i'd notice 1%. Look at finder, how often do you see a DK/Warden tank vs any other class in that role??! That just highlights there is a balance, difficulty or maybe just fun issue there with those classes (in that role).

    I was not suggesting the 1% as an actually interpretation of the gap. Only stating that a mere 1% would be sufficient to create a serious demand by top end players that you actually take that 1% advantage.

    I am persuaded that the primary issue of complaint is not because of a large gap between the classes, but rather the angst is coming from guild leaders not allowing people to play the classes they want because they aren't perceived as meta.

    I'm trying to say that the massive demand for meta builds does not mean there is a massive gap there.

    For example, Alkosh could be taken away from the game tomorrow and guilds would continue completing all content just fine. But there is an absolute insistence on at least 1 tank wearing almost, usually both tanks doing so. That MASSIVE demand is about a MINOR yet worthwhile edge in performance.

    The same goes for the DK, the insistence on DK tanks is MASSIVE, the gap is not nearly so large as that would suggest. And most of that gap comes from engulfing flames. The developers will be making a huge mistake if they miss this and come in with huge nerfs to rebalance them. They should get rid of the unique engulfing flames buff and watch the meta re-establish itself. At that point they are going to find that DK's aren't a "must" anymore, and it will save unnecessary nerfs.
  • aeowulf
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    I am persuaded that the primary issue of complaint is not because of a large gap between the classes, but rather the angst is coming from guild leaders not allowing people to play the classes they want because they aren't perceived as meta.

    Yeah, I think this is the absolute crux of the issue... such a shame really :( Is the actual issue here scores & leaderboards exising/being more important than fun??!
    Edited by aeowulf on July 18, 2018 2:59PM
  • Harbinger_GR
    Harbinger_GR
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    I'm a newcomer in ESO and even more newcomer in tanking. My real problem is my damage. Its like getting 2005 flashbacks when I leveled and played a protection warrior in WoW. Blizzard fixed and tanks went from doing ~10% compared to a real dps to something like 40-50% which was more than enough for a tank in tanking gear to solo "overland" stuff comfortably.

    Another issue is involvement. I don't know if its the *** normal/vet dungeons content I'm doing but tanking feels just easy. I never feel like I'll die if I screw up and thats with less than 300cp. I feel like I'm just a meatshield buff/debuff bot. Hardly rewarding gameplay.


  • ZeroXFF
    ZeroXFF
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    @Liofa
    I would disagree that engulfing flames is the main issue with the absence of non-DK tanks. It's certainly a piece of the puzzle in general, but as long as there are magDKs in your group (which there are in our guild), it's not a factor at all. Wardens don't have engulfing flames, and yet they are still considered viable. The main issues are stamina sustain while blocking and good scalability of self-heals with max HP. These are the 2 reasons why I relegated my Templar to crafting duty. I couldn't make a self-sufficient build with enough survival in worst case scenarios. And also because I couldn't deal with the scarabs in vFL hm that, while still very annoying, was much easier on my DK. All other classes (except Warden, since they also have great stam regen) would have to use gear and ultimates to offset this disadvantage (meaning no War Horn, no Alkosh and maybe not even Ebon to have the same level of resource management, especially in case of sorcerers).

    That's why I'm mostly fighting to allow tanks to use whatever gear they like to help them perform their primary role. If I can't use Hunt Leader on my stamblade or Bloodthorn's Touch on my magplar because Alkosh is a must, I have to resort to the 1hs ulti, and if I can't use that because I have to run War Horn, I'm screwed.
    Edited by ZeroXFF on July 18, 2018 8:01PM
  • xI_The_Owl_Ix
    xI_The_Owl_Ix
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    @Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.
    aeowulf wrote: »
    There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

    It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

    The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

    The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

    My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.

    This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.

    DKs dont need a nerf. They are good how they are atm.
    Other classes just need a buff.
    The difference isnt just engulfing flames though. If we look at the NB since its my main. We dont have a good stam sustain, we dont have have a class shield to surpress dots, we dont have a class AoE root (not stun), we dont have a class chain, we dont have synergies, we dont have any group utility (even less with the CP nerf to the Tactician passive) and the list goes on.
    Again tell Wrobel to buff other classes and not nerf existing classes.

    To your point that there should be a class thats better than other classes. Sure. But NBs are currently the best DPS because they are the hardest to pull off. So go ahead make DKs harder to play if you still want to be the best. That would be fair.



    Edit:
    All classes can do all content.

    This comment popped up several times in your feedback. And it rather confuses me to be honest.
    If your definiton of balance is "it can do content" why are you so afraid of a DK nerf? Im sure it will still be able to do all content ;)
    Edited by xI_The_Owl_Ix on July 19, 2018 4:59AM
  • RavenSworn
    RavenSworn
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    @Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.
    aeowulf wrote: »
    There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

    It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

    The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

    The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

    My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.

    This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.

    DKs dont need a nerf. They are good how they are atm.
    Other classes just need a buff.
    The difference isnt just engulfing flames though. If we look at the NB since its my main. We dont have a good stam sustain, we dont have have a class shield to surpress dots, we dont have a class AoE root (not stun), we dont have a class chain, we dont have synergies, we dont have any group utility (even less with the CP nerf to the Tactician passive) and the list goes on.
    Again tell Wrobel to buff other classes and not nerf existing classes.

    To your point that there should be a class thats better than other classes. Sure. But NBs are currently the best DPS because they are the hardest to pull off. So go ahead make DKs harder to play if you still want to be the best. That would be fair.



    Edit:
    All classes can do all content.

    This comment popped up several times in your feedback. And it rather confuses me to be honest.
    If your definiton of balance is "it can do content" why are you so afraid of a DK nerf? Im sure it will still be able to do all content ;)

    I don't think that's a good idea. Homogenizing the classes makes classes... Irrelevant. Why play a DK when a nb has the same tools as a DK tank? Why play sorc if a DK can streak as well? We don't need class chains or class root, what we need is identity, and to make sure that identity is viable in endgame. If our identity is self heals, Templar / wardens will out heal us. If our resource management is the top dog (which it was back before morrowind) sorcerers and dks do it better. The question that needs to be asked if what does a non dk tank bring to the table?

    Maybe Templar tanks are less mobile but their mitigation is much better than the rest?

    Maybe sorc tanks bring lots of crowd control but are not as effective at single target tanking?

    Maybe nb tanks should be able to do dodge tanking while managing resources, but are bad at crowd control?

    Identity is important, and when you do have it, the fights in pve has to accommodate all these factors. Like maybe for a fight, a DK might suit to be an off tank while a nb is needed to dodge the attacks?

    But all I see now is that in trials or even in dungeon HM, dks give the best bang for buck, while the warden is a close second. Even if its a 1% difference, there isn't any other group setup that people would be willing to experiment with.
    Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.


    Of Wolf and Raven
    Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!
  • Narvuntien
    Narvuntien
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    I kind of echo similar things... I want both the effectiveness of classes to tank but also for all of them to do so in a different way.

    The idea that you can't play some classes tanks because they can't perma block is an issue or that every tank wears the same set of support gear is an issue.

    If you just changed every class so they were some analogue of a DK you'd have the same problems with tanks. Right now you at least have DK Offensive tank and Warden Defensive tank and no real niche for any other tank that a dk or warden couldn't do better. So even if the other classes were almost as good as Dk and warden there would be no reason to play them unless they gave something group the other classes couldn't.

    Personally I want the other classes to give them group buffs like enfluging flames that only they can provide so you might have a reason to pick them. Now the balance of fire/lightning and mag/stam and melee ranged is another issue related to this.

    What if picking your tank class can greatly enhance playing a bunch of stam or prefering lightning over fire in you group for example. This is the kind of thing I think you could do to make your tank choice and your gear choice more meaningful than support sets on a dk.
  • xI_The_Owl_Ix
    xI_The_Owl_Ix
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    RavenSworn wrote: »
    @Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.
    aeowulf wrote: »
    There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

    It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

    The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

    The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

    My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.

    This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.

    DKs dont need a nerf. They are good how they are atm.
    Other classes just need a buff.
    The difference isnt just engulfing flames though. If we look at the NB since its my main. We dont have a good stam sustain, we dont have have a class shield to surpress dots, we dont have a class AoE root (not stun), we dont have a class chain, we dont have synergies, we dont have any group utility (even less with the CP nerf to the Tactician passive) and the list goes on.
    Again tell Wrobel to buff other classes and not nerf existing classes.

    To your point that there should be a class thats better than other classes. Sure. But NBs are currently the best DPS because they are the hardest to pull off. So go ahead make DKs harder to play if you still want to be the best. That would be fair.



    Edit:
    All classes can do all content.

    This comment popped up several times in your feedback. And it rather confuses me to be honest.
    If your definiton of balance is "it can do content" why are you so afraid of a DK nerf? Im sure it will still be able to do all content ;)

    I don't think that's a good idea. Homogenizing the classes makes classes... Irrelevant. Why play a DK when a nb has the same tools as a DK tank? Why play sorc if a DK can streak as well? We don't need class chains or class root, what we need is identity, and to make sure that identity is viable in endgame. If our identity is self heals, Templar / wardens will out heal us. If our resource management is the top dog (which it was back before morrowind) sorcerers and dks do it better. The question that needs to be asked if what does a non dk tank bring to the table?

    Maybe Templar tanks are less mobile but their mitigation is much better than the rest?

    Maybe sorc tanks bring lots of crowd control but are not as effective at single target tanking?

    Maybe nb tanks should be able to do dodge tanking while managing resources, but are bad at crowd control?

    Identity is important, and when you do have it, the fights in pve has to accommodate all these factors. Like maybe for a fight, a DK might suit to be an off tank while a nb is needed to dodge the attacks?

    But all I see now is that in trials or even in dungeon HM, dks give the best bang for buck, while the warden is a close second. Even if its a 1% difference, there isn't any other group setup that people would be willing to experiment with.

    Its really not about homogenizing, these things are a necessity. A tank needs roots, chains, group buffs. Thats also the reason why we got silver leash as a chain because tanks need those things (eventhough Silver Leash is terrible). If one class doesnt have those things everybody will play other classes. Thats also why people prefer DKs and Wardens they both have the tools.

    Also NB Tanks are not really ideal for single target bosses. Like I said we have terrible sustain, Major Evasion isnt reliable like shields, we get melted by unpurgable DoTs and AoEs because you cant dodge these things and we also have no group buffs.
    Major Evasion is also only 15% meaning you should dodge every 6,5 hits in theory. Thats terrible for slow but heavy hitting single target fights.

    It really isnt about homogenizing, its about making other classes viable which they are not at the moment.

    I have a DK Tank, and please if you want to know why we want these things, please just make yourself an Off-Meta tank and play it yourself and see all the problems other classes have. It really isnt fair and we keep getting nerfs e.g. the Tactician Passive not working with Evasion anymore.

    Edited by xI_The_Owl_Ix on July 19, 2018 12:03PM
  • BejaProphet
    BejaProphet
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    @xI_The_Owl_Ix Group buffs aren't a necessity for tanking. Roots and chains are. But chains has been answered by silver leash. You don't like silver leash, I get it. But you are never going to get the developers to make sure every class has a class specific chaining ability when they just finishing giving every class access to one. When you ask for things like that you are only making sure you are ignored. You would be better off discussing how you think leash is lacking and what changes could be made to that skill. That is something the developers might consider.

    At this point with meditate, sustain is now a L2P issue.

    I don't know that all classes specifically need a root, but I agree that good tanking requires the ability to pin down creatures as you stack them. I haven't tried time stop. If a combination of time stop/ caltrops is insufficient, then something needs to be given to help pin down creatures.

    And I will restate one of my main ideas in my last post. Your grief is not truly with how much better DK's are. Your grief is that your guild leader won't let you play the class you desire.
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    @xI_The_Owl_Ix Group buffs aren't a necessity for tanking. Roots and chains are. But chains has been answered by silver leash. You don't like silver leash, I get it. But you are never going to get the developers to make sure every class has a class specific chaining ability when they just finishing giving every class access to one. When you ask for things like that you are only making sure you are ignored. You would be better off discussing how you think leash is lacking and what changes could be made to that skill. That is something the developers might consider.

    At this point with meditate, sustain is now a L2P issue.

    I don't know that all classes specifically need a root, but I agree that good tanking requires the ability to pin down creatures as you stack them. I haven't tried time stop. If a combination of time stop/ caltrops is insufficient, then something needs to be given to help pin down creatures.

    And I will restate one of my main ideas in my last post. Your grief is not truly with how much better DK's are. Your grief is that your guild leader won't let you play the class you desire.

    @BejaProphet And why do you think a guild leader won't let you play the class you desire? Why do you think vet pug finder is almost exclusively DK/Warden tanks? Do you think it's because DK/Warden are significantly better at that role, or those roles offer significantly more to their group?

    I've read your long post about tanking, and I do agree with most things, tanks need to 'toughen up'. I play a DK tank and a NB DPS, who used to be my main tank. The DK is WAY above and beyond the NB, both in ease and what they can do to make it an easy ride for the group. Have you actually tried taking an off-meta tank into tough content? How did you find that vs DK?
    Edited by aeowulf on July 19, 2018 3:15PM
  • xI_The_Owl_Ix
    xI_The_Owl_Ix
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    @xI_The_Owl_Ix Group buffs aren't a necessity for tanking. Roots and chains are. But chains has been answered by silver leash. You don't like silver leash, I get it. But you are never going to get the developers to make sure every class has a class specific chaining ability when they just finishing giving every class access to one. When you ask for things like that you are only making sure you are ignored. You would be better off discussing how you think leash is lacking and what changes could be made to that skill. That is something the developers might consider.

    At this point with meditate, sustain is now a L2P issue.

    I don't know that all classes specifically need a root, but I agree that good tanking requires the ability to pin down creatures as you stack them. I haven't tried time stop. If a combination of time stop/ caltrops is insufficient, then something needs to be given to help pin down creatures.

    And I will restate one of my main ideas in my last post. Your grief is not truly with how much better DK's are. Your grief is that your guild leader won't let you play the class you desire.

    Just lol. Im not even going to try to argue with you any longer. Just go ahead and make a NB tank and tell me that DKs arent easier/better.

    "L2P" I completed every vet trial and every DLC dungeon challenger on my NB Tank. Just because Im a good player doesnt mean the class is good for tanking. And every guild leader lets me play whatever I want because they know that Im experienced. Is it optimal? No. Does it give group buffs? No. Does it help improve the score? No.

    Also you shouldnt try to argue for other classes if you only play DK/Warden. Look at all the non DK/Warden Tanks complaining, I guess we are all wrong and youre right.

    And no, Time Freeze is a stun so is Silver Leash . The ads get CC immunity after chaning so chaining > time freeze doesnt work, but how could you possibly know that (maybe try playing an Off-Meta Tank ;) )
    Talons on the other hand is "immobilisation" aka root. So its not on the cooldown for stuns.
    Edited by xI_The_Owl_Ix on July 19, 2018 3:39PM
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