usmcjdking wrote: »IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.
There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:
(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.
(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.
(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.
(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.
(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.
Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.
usmcjdking wrote: »IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.
There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:
(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.
(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.
(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.
(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.
(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.
Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.
These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.
I_B_Squishy wrote: »It put a spotlight on the game and at least half of Everquest's entire player base jumped ship and played WOW when it was finally released. A year later Everquest was for all intents and purposes a dead game. Furor btw, was a warrior.
game going in the same direction because it seems nobody has figured out that support is NOT fun.
LOL no-one in WOW suggests levelling as a tank build/gear so you bring up the exact argument against what you are suggesting. Protection warriors are a joke in PVP. A tank warrior in defensive stance gets a -15% damage and +30% (don't remember the exact numbers) threat generation and hit like an absolute wet noodle. You brought up the exact worst possible example you could. Well done.
For those who don't know: In that game for PVP you go Arms warrior (2handed), for PVE you go fury (dual-weild) and for tanking you go (1hand+board) and if you level you DO NOT go Protection because its so much slower. You wear a separate set of DPS gear for solo at end level and you re-skill if you go PVP. Again, well done sir, well done.
Now stop derailing this discussion. Tanks should tank and this is what this discussion is about. If I want to level fast I wear tanking gear and run dungeons - lvl 50 in days. If I want to do quests while levelling I don't wear tanking gear/skills. Once I am at CP level I wear a set of DPS gear and have around 10k dps which is on a 3mill dummy and the trash for quests and delves melts because their HP is so low. I swap gear with a click of a button and it takes up 14 slots of my 200 inventory bag. I PVP without swapping a single one of my skills and, again, only swap gear. Grow a pair and be a real tank.
Sigh... Now to talking tanking....
usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.
There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:
(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.
(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.
(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.
(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.
(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.
Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.
These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.
Thennnnnn don't wear them?
I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?
usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.
There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:
(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.
(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.
(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.
(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.
(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.
Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.
These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.
Thennnnnn don't wear them?
I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?
That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.
usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.
There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:
(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.
(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.
(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.
(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.
(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.
Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.
These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.
Thennnnnn don't wear them?
I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?
That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.
And if set bonuses as such were introduced into the game, what exactly would you be compromising now? Ebon/Alky will always be a safe bet. A main tank capable of pulling 10k DPS is going to sacrifice a whole lot of protection and survivability in favor of some very powerful buffs/debuffs.
The trade off is minimal, but favors tanks who have the experience to take a more aggressive posture.
usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.
There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:
(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.
(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.
(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.
(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.
(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.
Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.
These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.
Thennnnnn don't wear them?
I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?
That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.
And if set bonuses as such were introduced into the game, what exactly would you be compromising now? Ebon/Alky will always be a safe bet. A main tank capable of pulling 10k DPS is going to sacrifice a whole lot of protection and survivability in favor of some very powerful buffs/debuffs.
The trade off is minimal, but favors tanks who have the experience to take a more aggressive posture.
Tanks shouldn't sacrifice anything to be doing 10k DPS, it should be normal regardless of the gear used. The way it is now is just bad design that is the reason there are so few tanks. Nobody wants to level one because they can't kill anything.
And the Alkosh tank meta is the reason Alkosh should be changed to only benefit the wearer (and then also buffed), or give major/minor resist debuffs instead, the same way it was done with Sunderflame and NMG. As for Ebon, it's hardly that "aggressive posture" you're asking for. But yeah, it should be changed in some way too, because regardless of what other cool sets get introduced, trial groups will demand that at least one tank wears it.
There are plenty of interesting tanking sets, and all of them should be valid options if they fit the specific build, but currently this is not the case. This will only be achieved if the only buffs tanks give come from their skills, or if the defenses are always the same, and there are only some additional group buffs given by some sets. People who chose to play the designated defensive role should not compromise on the defenses, because maximizing survival is the fun part of being a tank, not increasing numbers on someone else's screen.
usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »IMO tanking needs more variety. Not necessarily in gear but in playstyle. The only tank that truly differs in playstyle ATM is the combat tank (the dude who shows up in Ravager, Bloodspawn, Agil and slays everything with 30khp). There are waaaaaay too many good tanks who go underutilized in their capabilities because they don't have the gear to show their skill because it doesn't exist.
There need to be more buff/debuff sets that are tremendous options on a tank but require a bit of practice/ingenuity/anything-that-results-in-doing-anything-other-than-holding-block-and-conserving-resources. For example, you could have 5pc sets that do the following:
(5 items) Landing 3 consecutive heavy attacks within 10 seconds of each other causes your next Puncture to reduce all resistances by an additional 5000.
(5 items) While having a shield equipped: landing a physical, direct damage critical hit adds a stack of Natural Order, increasing your damage by 5%. At 5 stacks, all stacks are expended and up to 3 nearby allies gain Major Berserk for 5 seconds. Can happen once every 10 seconds. Cannot build stacks during the cooldown.
(5 items) For 10 seconds after using an ultimate, gain a stack of Tyranny whenever you are hit for more than 10% of your HP. Each stack reduces enemy damage during the duration by 5% up to 10 stacks.
(5 items) Using an ultimate immediately after breaking free provides Major Protection for all allies in the area for 5 seconds.
(5 items) Doing 30,000 damage in 3 seconds to an enemy you have taunted provides a stack of Momentum for 15 seconds, increasing your movespeed by 5%. At 3 stacks, they are expended and the enemy is inflicted by Major Vulnerability for 8 seconds.
Very niche ideas, very difficult to proc in most cases but provides insane combat buffs that make it worth it.
These are bad ideas that detract from tanking itself. If sets like the 1st, 2nd and 5th are supposed to become a norm, the 5p bonuses should come with the full benefit of a 5p defensive stat/proc, and what you suggest should be an additional effect on top. It's bad enough wearing ebon+alkosh that give very little benefit to tanking, but adding sets like you suggest would make it even more difficult to justify actually being a tank. I want to wear gear that improves my performance in my primary role, and giving out buffs is not my primary role.
Thennnnnn don't wear them?
I have pulled a 17k parse while tanking the Serpent in VSO, why shouldn't I be rewarded for being able to do that with sets that actually push the efficiency of my character?
That would be a valid argument if DDs were ever forced to compromise on DPS. But I see them running around with 15k HP and blaming the healers for being 1-shot.
And if set bonuses as such were introduced into the game, what exactly would you be compromising now? Ebon/Alky will always be a safe bet. A main tank capable of pulling 10k DPS is going to sacrifice a whole lot of protection and survivability in favor of some very powerful buffs/debuffs.
The trade off is minimal, but favors tanks who have the experience to take a more aggressive posture.
Tanks shouldn't sacrifice anything to be doing 10k DPS, it should be normal regardless of the gear used. The way it is now is just bad design that is the reason there are so few tanks. Nobody wants to level one because they can't kill anything.
And the Alkosh tank meta is the reason Alkosh should be changed to only benefit the wearer (and then also buffed), or give major/minor resist debuffs instead, the same way it was done with Sunderflame and NMG. As for Ebon, it's hardly that "aggressive posture" you're asking for. But yeah, it should be changed in some way too, because regardless of what other cool sets get introduced, trial groups will demand that at least one tank wears it.
There are plenty of interesting tanking sets, and all of them should be valid options if they fit the specific build, but currently this is not the case. This will only be achieved if the only buffs tanks give come from their skills, or if the defenses are always the same, and there are only some additional group buffs given by some sets. People who chose to play the designated defensive role should not compromise on the defenses, because maximizing survival is the fun part of being a tank, not increasing numbers on someone else's screen.
Okay, I think I understand your gripe now as I originally misunderstood it. You would like to see the roles between Healer/Tank/DPS be less spread and more generalized, having gear and CP to fine tune those roles instead of being the basis of those roles.
Understandable, but I utterly fail to see how that's relevant at all to my post which addresses absolutely none of your gripes to begin with. If you think it's a bad idea in the context of what it could theoretically be implemented into now (aka PTS) then tell me why. Saying "this is bad direction, here's my personal preference" (esp one that is way outside of the current scope of the game) is absolutely meaningless for me and others who read our conversation because you are attempting to compare two outcomes that have nowhere near the amount of information available as to how they would play. Whilst mine uses the existing game structure to support new methods and alternatives in tanking, yours is a whole new game design that is not currently witnessed by any means in ESO.
I don't agree at all and don't really care to explore your desire for future tanking at all, so it's probably best you target or tag someone like @Liofa who might be more receptive to your ideas.
My main 'beef' with tanking is class balance. There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials. The easiest classes to play are also the most effective - there is no risk/reward here, quite the opposite in fact. The toughest class to play in a role, should also perform the best.
Secondly it's fun. I used to play a sap tank. This style was a lot of fun and it was effectively removed with Morrowind. It was not better than a DK, they were still wanted for trials. It was fairly well balanced and a unique way of tanking. I was very disapointed ZoS did not respond to the huge number of threads on these forums when an entire role was effectively removed from a class, nor did anything to return it. Same applies to templars. The complete lack of non-DK/warden tanks from finder has made it very stale and somewhat boring. Alarm bells should of been ringing, and this should of been fixed (before it went live). Other things that come under the category of fun are not being told which sets to wear, and feeling 'useful' to the group.
Thanks for your time
There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.
BejaProphet wrote: »
This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.
BejaProphet wrote: »@Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.
It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)
The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.
The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.
BejaProphet wrote: »@Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.
It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)
The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.
The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.
Half the battle is actually perception, sites like Woeler/Alcast etc list (or listed) only DK/Warden as trials-suitable tanks. Someone reads this and immediately assumes the other classes are not suitable. Just because <they> can't make an alternative class work in a trial role does not mean it's not possible for someone else, but as these builders are very well respected most will assume other classes are not trials-suitable. A 1% gap betwen two classes is easily made up in skill, but there is not a 1% difference between DK & NB when tanking, it's noticably bigger and i doubt i'd notice 1%. Look at finder, how often do you see a DK/Warden tank vs any other class in that role??! That just highlights there is a balance, difficulty or maybe just fun issue there with those classes (in that role).
BejaProphet wrote: »
I am persuaded that the primary issue of complaint is not because of a large gap between the classes, but rather the angst is coming from guild leaders not allowing people to play the classes they want because they aren't perceived as meta.
BejaProphet wrote: »@Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.
It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)
The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.
The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.
My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.
This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.
All classes can do all content.
xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »@Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.
It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)
The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.
The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.
My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.
This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.
DKs dont need a nerf. They are good how they are atm.
Other classes just need a buff.
The difference isnt just engulfing flames though. If we look at the NB since its my main. We dont have a good stam sustain, we dont have have a class shield to surpress dots, we dont have a class AoE root (not stun), we dont have a class chain, we dont have synergies, we dont have any group utility (even less with the CP nerf to the Tactician passive) and the list goes on.
Again tell Wrobel to buff other classes and not nerf existing classes.
To your point that there should be a class thats better than other classes. Sure. But NBs are currently the best DPS because they are the hardest to pull off. So go ahead make DKs harder to play if you still want to be the best. That would be fair.
Edit:All classes can do all content.
This comment popped up several times in your feedback. And it rather confuses me to be honest.
If your definiton of balance is "it can do content" why are you so afraid of a DK nerf? Im sure it will still be able to do all content
RavenSworn wrote: »xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »@Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.
It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)
The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.
The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.
My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.
This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.
DKs dont need a nerf. They are good how they are atm.
Other classes just need a buff.
The difference isnt just engulfing flames though. If we look at the NB since its my main. We dont have a good stam sustain, we dont have have a class shield to surpress dots, we dont have a class AoE root (not stun), we dont have a class chain, we dont have synergies, we dont have any group utility (even less with the CP nerf to the Tactician passive) and the list goes on.
Again tell Wrobel to buff other classes and not nerf existing classes.
To your point that there should be a class thats better than other classes. Sure. But NBs are currently the best DPS because they are the hardest to pull off. So go ahead make DKs harder to play if you still want to be the best. That would be fair.
Edit:All classes can do all content.
This comment popped up several times in your feedback. And it rather confuses me to be honest.
If your definiton of balance is "it can do content" why are you so afraid of a DK nerf? Im sure it will still be able to do all content
I don't think that's a good idea. Homogenizing the classes makes classes... Irrelevant. Why play a DK when a nb has the same tools as a DK tank? Why play sorc if a DK can streak as well? We don't need class chains or class root, what we need is identity, and to make sure that identity is viable in endgame. If our identity is self heals, Templar / wardens will out heal us. If our resource management is the top dog (which it was back before morrowind) sorcerers and dks do it better. The question that needs to be asked if what does a non dk tank bring to the table?
Maybe Templar tanks are less mobile but their mitigation is much better than the rest?
Maybe sorc tanks bring lots of crowd control but are not as effective at single target tanking?
Maybe nb tanks should be able to do dodge tanking while managing resources, but are bad at crowd control?
Identity is important, and when you do have it, the fights in pve has to accommodate all these factors. Like maybe for a fight, a DK might suit to be an off tank while a nb is needed to dodge the attacks?
But all I see now is that in trials or even in dungeon HM, dks give the best bang for buck, while the warden is a close second. Even if its a 1% difference, there isn't any other group setup that people would be willing to experiment with.
BejaProphet wrote: »@xI_The_Owl_Ix Group buffs aren't a necessity for tanking. Roots and chains are. But chains has been answered by silver leash. You don't like silver leash, I get it. But you are never going to get the developers to make sure every class has a class specific chaining ability when they just finishing giving every class access to one. When you ask for things like that you are only making sure you are ignored. You would be better off discussing how you think leash is lacking and what changes could be made to that skill. That is something the developers might consider.
At this point with meditate, sustain is now a L2P issue.
I don't know that all classes specifically need a root, but I agree that good tanking requires the ability to pin down creatures as you stack them. I haven't tried time stop. If a combination of time stop/ caltrops is insufficient, then something needs to be given to help pin down creatures.
And I will restate one of my main ideas in my last post. Your grief is not truly with how much better DK's are. Your grief is that your guild leader won't let you play the class you desire.
BejaProphet wrote: »@xI_The_Owl_Ix Group buffs aren't a necessity for tanking. Roots and chains are. But chains has been answered by silver leash. You don't like silver leash, I get it. But you are never going to get the developers to make sure every class has a class specific chaining ability when they just finishing giving every class access to one. When you ask for things like that you are only making sure you are ignored. You would be better off discussing how you think leash is lacking and what changes could be made to that skill. That is something the developers might consider.
At this point with meditate, sustain is now a L2P issue.
I don't know that all classes specifically need a root, but I agree that good tanking requires the ability to pin down creatures as you stack them. I haven't tried time stop. If a combination of time stop/ caltrops is insufficient, then something needs to be given to help pin down creatures.
And I will restate one of my main ideas in my last post. Your grief is not truly with how much better DK's are. Your grief is that your guild leader won't let you play the class you desire.