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Smallscale Campaign

Dont_do_drugs
Dont_do_drugs
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Just some thoughts I recently had following the sloads- and sieges discussions, I just wonder, why ZOS keeps killing any tactical aspect of PVP with such changes !trying! fullfill smaller groups and smallscalers needs as well.

For me tactical aspects are important, even in group battles of more than 12 men groups, I like long fights, also long mass fights (if the performance was good), I also know how to survive alone, but I am quite critical about crying smallscalers, which complain, when they get nuked from "zergs", since Cyrodiil always has been promoted as mass-pvp, same time I have highest respect for some smallscale-groups which are able to kill way bigger groups.

After all the time I am playing eso, I am wondering why ZOS never made a campaign with completely other rules/restrictions, this means:

* lower population cap
* groups capped at 8 or 12 people (i know, there is still a chance, more groups just run together)
* lower siege caps
* maybe if other people also have ideas to keep "zerging" out of the campaign...other stuff
* higher ap ticks

There will never be a way to fullfill the needs of every playstyle in cyrodiil, no set adjusting, no adjusting of sieges will ever help the situation if you dont support splitting up the playstyles into their own campaigns. No smallscaler gets zerged by a 24-man group and has to cry then, no need for sloads, no need for siege-dmg-increase.
Edited by Dont_do_drugs on July 12, 2018 8:14AM

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  • Gprime31
    Gprime31
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    How about you get 0 ap for groups above 12 players, I miss small scale.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    To me it’s about all the stuff that makes running solo even harder. I accept that as a player who doesn’t group up and thus doesn’t have reliable support things are and should be harder. But to make it even harder and harder every patch with the addition of poison, powerful proc sets, the overturned siege, and Xv1 mechanics like snares and oblivion damage - that’s what I don’t get.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 45 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1600+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
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    Feanor wrote: »
    To me it’s about all the stuff that makes running solo even harder. I accept that as a player who doesn’t group up and thus doesn’t have reliable support things are and should be harder. But to make it even harder and harder every patch with the addition of poison, powerful proc sets, the overturned siege, and Xv1 mechanics like snares and oblivion damage - that’s what I don’t get.

    actually i think, a lot of stuff which zos implemented, which makes smallscalers concern, has been implemented to support smallscalers to get along with bigger groups but after all is getting "misused" by the bigger groups as well. just think of vicious death set in the beginning, its been a zergkiller and made as this, but not only solists used it, but also bombgroups then. also increased siege damage looks to me as if zos intended to give solists and small amounts of people something to work against zergs. and this cancerous changes wont ever stop, as long as those playstyles wont get splitted up.

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    "I have too admit. People leading trade guilds in this game are quite stupid. Not stupid like fools, but stupid like leaders.
    They can only bla-bla and waste gold on feeding their ego. I am disappointed."

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.

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  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    Cyrodiil was build to be massive sandbox style siege wars, not an even balanced battleground.

    Trying to make it anything else goes against the point of what it was made for. There is always room for small scale and skirmish warfare in that but you have to have some expectation of how play differs.

    ZOS has been making changes to Cyrodiil to try and make fighting over resources more of a small scale activity and the keeps for the bigger groups which if they can get right will make for a much more interesting PvP experience than just capping players.

    If you're playing as a small group part of the skill and winning in PvP is the ability to engage and disengage a larger group without wiping. Also there isn't really a loss (if you don't care about objectives) if your group does get run over by a zerg.
    Respawn, take a bio-break and go out again.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
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    If you're playing as a small group part of the skill and winning in PvP is the ability to engage and disengage a larger group without wiping. Also there isn't really a loss (if you don't care about objectives) if your group does get run over by a zerg.
    Respawn, take a bio-break and go out again.

    Thats what you say, how it should be, but after all all those changes make a lot of people lose fun in cyrodiil, also i know of some befriended players quitting on eso because of the last patch and the upcoming. so just saying "its not a real loss losing against a zerg" - seemingly some people find it demotivating, that zos screws up attempts to balance group players and smallscalers.
    Edited by Dont_do_drugs on July 12, 2018 9:30AM

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    "I have too admit. People leading trade guilds in this game are quite stupid. Not stupid like fools, but stupid like leaders.
    They can only bla-bla and waste gold on feeding their ego. I am disappointed."

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.

    Arkadius Trade Tools
    Modular framework, now open for authors who want to add own tabs.

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  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    @Turelus

    You’d have a point if the game could handle the large scale battles. It doesn’t since 1.6 and we all know that.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 45 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1600+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    Feanor wrote: »
    Turelus

    You’d have a point if the game could handle the large scale battles. It doesn’t since 1.6 and we all know that.
    Right, but is gutting Cyrodiil down to a 12v12v12 really the right solution to that? The caps have been lowered so much as it is vs the levels of beta and launch.

    I agree lag is an issue (and one hopefully we'll see some reductions in eventually) but I personally don't want to see what Cyrodiil is mean to be turned into Battle Grounds Plus.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Turelus

    You’d have a point if the game could handle the large scale battles. It doesn’t since 1.6 and we all know that.
    Right, but is gutting Cyrodiil down to a 12v12v12 really the right solution to that? The caps have been lowered so much as it is vs the levels of beta and launch.

    I agree lag is an issue (and one hopefully we'll see some reductions in eventually) but I personally don't want to see what Cyrodiil is mean to be turned into Battle Grounds Plus.

    We’re talking an extra campaign, maybe even with a smaller map. Not turning the main campaigns into something different.

    Personally, I’d not need a dedicated small scale campaign. It would be sufficient if ZOS didn’t try to make it harder as it already is. Get rid of poisons, tune down snares, disable damage proc sets, scrap oblivion damage, tone down siege, fix CC and immunity.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 45 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1600+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • dtsharples
    dtsharples
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    We need something in addition to Cyrodiil, not within it.
    There is a tonne of unused space on the map, around the edges of Cyrodiil that could be utilised to provide some smaller-scale PVP.

    My suggestion would be something along the lines of larger scale battlegrounds.
    Each faction can have a maximum of 20 players, with any pre-made groups joining being capped at 4 people.
    The map would only need to be about the size of the ring of the 6 inner keeps.
    This way people can choose to either act alone, as a small group, or as one large force.

    Obviously there would need to be more than 5 campaigns, to cater for whatever demand their might be.
    Or possibly just make it similar to how you currently join the Random Group Finder / Battlegrounds.
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    TO be honest the reason why I roll Sotha or Shor is for small scale.

    I'm unsure the Pop needs to be split further - i.e. another PVP area. But I am open to anything that keeps small scale quality. And theres nothing worse than the ZERG of alliance switching cheats descend on a a quality Sotha or Shor campaign and ruin it.

    I'm just unsure what can be done.
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
    1st Emperor of Ravenwatch
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
    Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders

    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
    Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
    Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
    Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    Of course the irony being. half this forum is declaring the death of PVP and no one is left....

    Yet we are saying there are TOO MANY players haha

    Awesome
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
    1st Emperor of Ravenwatch
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
    Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders

    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
    Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
    Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
    Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach
  • Thraben
    Thraben
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    Just some thoughts I recently had following the sloads- and sieges discussions, I just wonder, why ZOS keeps killing any tactical aspect of PVP with such changes !trying! fullfill smaller groups and smallscalers needs as well.

    For me tactical aspects are important, even in group battles of more than 12 men groups, I like long fights, also long mass fights (if the performance was good), I also know how to survive alone, but I am quite critical about crying smallscalers, which complain, when they get nuked from "zergs", since Cyrodiil always has been promoted as mass-pvp, same time I have highest respect for some smallscale-groups which are able to kill way bigger groups.

    After all the time I am playing eso, I am wondering why ZOS never made a campaign with completely other rules/restrictions, this means:

    * lower population cap
    * groups capped at 8 or 12 people (i know, there is still a chance, more groups just run together)
    * lower siege caps
    * maybe if other people also have ideas to keep "zerging" out of the campaign...other stuff
    * higher ap ticks

    There will never be a way to fullfill the needs of every playstyle in cyrodiil, no set adjusting, no adjusting of sieges will ever help the situation if you dont support splitting up the playstyles into their own campaigns. No smallscaler gets zerged by a 24-man group and has to cry then, no need for sloads, no need for siege-dmg-increase.

    Firstly, I would join a campaign where the group size is capped at 8. IF there were enough other players there, which I doubt. Because:
    1) There are not enough people willing to lead a group ot there.
    2) Only VERY elite groups would be able to take a keep; everyone else would just defend which makes it even more diffcult to attack one.
    3) Without enough organized 8person groups, the solo players will leave the server, because there are no fights to join, and because even IF you left your keep alone, you would be instantly ganked by 8 bored Stamblades.
    4) Then people will start leaving the server, and the 8-persons groups will also leave because there aren´t enough enemies to fight.

    By the way most of the ever-crying "small scalers" wouldn´t join the campaign either, because most are self- glorifying gankers who want to farm bad players and aren´t looking for really challenging fights.
    Edited by Thraben on July 12, 2018 11:09AM
    Hauptmann der Dolche des Königs

    DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.

    DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.
  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
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    Feanor wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Turelus

    You’d have a point if the game could handle the large scale battles. It doesn’t since 1.6 and we all know that.
    Right, but is gutting Cyrodiil down to a 12v12v12 really the right solution to that? The caps have been lowered so much as it is vs the levels of beta and launch.

    I agree lag is an issue (and one hopefully we'll see some reductions in eventually) but I personally don't want to see what Cyrodiil is mean to be turned into Battle Grounds Plus.

    It would be sufficient if ZOS didn’t try to make it harder as it already is. Get rid of poisons, tune down snares, disable damage proc sets, scrap oblivion damage, tone down siege, fix CC and immunity.

    this wont ever happen, u know that. even if some stuff gets nerfed again, in some months they gonna smash another gamebreaker into cyrodiil.


    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    "I have too admit. People leading trade guilds in this game are quite stupid. Not stupid like fools, but stupid like leaders.
    They can only bla-bla and waste gold on feeding their ego. I am disappointed."

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.

    Arkadius Trade Tools
    Modular framework, now open for authors who want to add own tabs.

    My Donation (Arkadius' Trade Tools Addon)
    First external ATT tab contribution.

    Port to Friend's House Addon
    Check out the new Port to Friend's House library and port to contributers houses:
    Deutsch | English

  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    I've gone to PC/NA Shor with an organized group of 12 players and we still smashed up the map and got called a zerg.

    There's a reason my guild raids stay in laggy Vivec and its because if there's not equal competition, its no fun for us or the smaller groups we fight on campaigns like Shor.

    A lot of the population issues would be fixed if ZOS could fix Cyrodiil's performance issues. Large scale combat would work the way its supposed to, and with a larger overall population, we could have more 7 day campaigns where small scale thrives.
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