Isn't it about time you stopped BSing us?

Matthew_Galvanus · July 2018

You have gone on and on with this spiel about how the Class Rep system is supposed to help the people of Zenimax improve the game for all players, that you listen to our feedback and make adjustments accordingly, but it is just a load of tripe. How many times are you going to slap us across the face? How many times are you going to prove that you simply disregard what we say and try to make tiny insignificant changes to concerns we bring up to try and appease us, all the while you make more disastrous changes with every patch?

Lets talk about patch 4.1.0 the patch currently in the PTS.

some of the biggest concerns we have were in regards to Sload's and Runecage, both of whom are highly controversial in the PvP community. Sload's has been discussed for months as being a set that is way to strong because it can be stacked on one target from multiple players, if it were anything other than oblivion damage this wouldn't nearly be as frustrating to deal with as it is now. However no one here is say that you should nerf it into the ground, or remove its oblivion damage. The resounding agreement people have reached is that we want Sload's to be changed so that it cannot stack in PvP.

Rune cage is another big controversy, albeit one that is far more complicated. Having an ability to drops a 5 second stun from 28 meters away, it sounds overpowered as can be, but it straddles a very fine line between being overpowered and being completely unviable. I certainly couldn't tell you how to fix this one, but i can say that this can serve as an opener into another issue I take with all the changes they have been making lately.

PvE and PvP should have been entirely separate from one another from the very start. One of the biggest issues people bring up is the fact that Zenimax is trying to juggle PvE and PvP together, but this is completely unfeasible. When you make make changes to a set, or skill to change how it performs in one aspect of the game ( and in this instance alot of changes are made to skills and sets to make them more balanced in PvP), it has an adverse reaction on the other aspect of the game (PvE). When you reduce the overall efficiency of something so it isn't exploitable in a setting where players are fighting each other, you make those very same skills far less effective when players are fighting an NPC. This in turn makes it much more difficult to complete end game PvE content because players no longer have the necessary means of clearing a major fight and that isn't okay.

ezio45 · July 2018

ya they [removed profanity] up rc and sloads pretty hardcore, sloads needs a longer cooldown and to not stack and rc they just need to do what everyone has said from the beginning, revert it to pre summersert and give cfrag the stun back

brandonv516 · July 2018

I'm not gonna lie, I love the fix for Sloads breaking Cloak.

That being said this is only the first week of PTS. Give it some more time.

Matthew_Galvanus · July 2018

brandonv516 wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I love the fix for Sloads breaking Cloak.

That being said this is only the first week of PTS. Give it some more time.

you must be rather new to the way Zenimax runs ESO, unless something is completely gamebreaking, they rarely ever make any changes to content on the PTS before releasing it, they would rather wait until it causes an uproar before trying to hotfix something.

LadyLavina · July 2018

It has been time for years. They're not going to stop.

They do whatever they want and lay low until the various [removed profanity] storms die down.

Tonturri · July 2018

make it entirely PvP based since they are the only portion of the player base you are catering to

LOL WHAT you're out of your mind. Or this was a typo? ESO has been a PvE centric game for quite a long time.

I am honestly wondering, please clarify this for me - did you get things mixed up? Because I didn't really see anything in the class-adjustments section that really impacted PvE much. PvE nightblades are more than fine compared to the other classes, and stamblades are still amazing - the only thing I can think of that might possibly even come close to what you're talking about is the Incap change, which really has been long overdue, and my stamblade is grateful ZOS was so gentle and kind with what they did.

Do agree about the pve/pvp split though.

Stovahkiin · July 2018

I lol’d hard when OP claimed that Zeni is only catering to pvp players.

Reality check: Cyrodiil performance has been going downhill for years, and Zeni hasn’t even gone as far as lifting a finger to fix it. You only need one hand to count the number of substantial updates that pvp players have gotten since launch.
1. Imp City
2. Battlegrounds
3. Towns (barely counts, tbh)
4. Removal of doors from towers?...
5. Uhh

Dueling doesn’t count since it’s something that should have been included at launch, and is a feature found in basically every other mmo.

Thorstienn · July 2018

So didn't think you were going to turn to the PVE side after that start.
As I mentioned it the PTS combat notes, almost everything in this patch is aimed at snares, defile, and skill fixes. I hope you're a templar as we got shafted with sustain, but you talk about twisting the knife on NB, that lost a stun in their gank: useless in PVE.
On point.
RC they nerfded the wrong side of it. WHICH be irrelevant if they just made snares Major/minor debuffs.
Sloads they maybe didn't nerf enough, but timing will tell; they "fixed" it, which is good. It will and should remain stackable, unless they decide to blanket proc sets as unstackable!?

Swifigames · July 2018

I would like to thank the entire PvP population for helping carry the PvE aspect of ESO to it's current point. Without all of those money dropping PvPers would we all be enjoying the bustling expansion on the PvE side of the game?
I'm not saying the sole reason for ESO's current success is solely on the PvP communities shoulders, everyone that has put time into ESO has, but by golly I bet a stack of Psijic crates the PvP community helped quite a bit financially...this is of course just a hypothesis.
That said, Cyrodiil is worth saving! It is Cyrodiil after all.
Maybe I should take a nap...pretty tired

NightbladeMechanics · July 2018

You contradict yourself by complaining that Sload's still stacks in PvP and Rune Cage has a long stun duration, and then complaining that ZOS focuses primarily on PvP changes and ignores PvE.

As for those two changes, consider the situation. Sload's and Rune Cage sit atop complex underlying issues, and only a month and a half has passed since our first class rep meeting. That is very little time. I suspect that ZOS intends to further rework both, but has not yet decided on the best means of doing so. Therefore, they gave each a love tap to indicate that they are working on both and to relieve some pressure from us in the meantime and put off further reworks for later patches.

To address your specific issues, Sload's is a single target dot which becomes problematic when stacked, but it would be against mechanical consistency of the game to simply make Sload's not stack on target. This places ZOS in an awkward situation where they must consider greater reworks to the set. And Rune Cage's issue is the lack of counterplay on the long range point-and-click, unblockable, undodgeable cc, not its duration. However, reducing its range turns it into Fossilize, reducing class diversity and violating sorc's long range theme, making it dodgeable doesn't really achieve anything, and making it blockable leaves sorcs struggling to kill semi-tanky snb builds due to their generally low sustained damage and highly telegraphed combos. Sorcs went years seriously struggling to kill block builds. The Rune Cage rework was originally intended to address this, but its lack of counterplay has caused more problems than it's solved. It is understandable that ZOS is caught in a tough situation with this ability.

Give the team some time to figure it out. Remember, we are only on PTS patch number one, and our next meeting is coming up in less than 10 days. Instead of venting empty anger, you might also consider making concrete suggestions, as well.

Waffennacht · July 2018

Lol, ok make runecage's duration 2 sec, I'm all for it

(Spoiler: it won't change a thing)

Gilvoth · July 2018

there are alot of people who do not agree with all the things you or i specifically want or told the reps.
just because your desires did not happen does not mean the program failed.
sometimes the devs disagree with what some peoples ideas.
there are alot more desires of people that are not even on this forum and we never hear their votes but the devs did on another forum or another platform that you might not have seen or heard.

i don't believe that sloads needed any nerf at all. and i do'nt think it needs any further nerfs.
but, just because what i wanted did not happen does not mean the devs are BSing.

swippy · July 2018

Swifigames wrote: »

I would like to thank the entire PvP population for helping carry the PvE aspect of ESO to it's current point. Without all of those money dropping PvPers would we all be enjoying the bustling expansion on the PvE side of the game?
I'm not saying the sole reason for ESO's current success is solely on the PvP communities shoulders, everyone that has put time into ESO has, but by golly I bet a stack of Psijic crates the PvP community helped quite a bit financially...this is of course just a hypothesis.
That said, Cyrodiil is worth saving! It is Cyrodiil after all.
Maybe I should take a nap...pretty tired

i've been subbing for about a year and a half, spent thousands of USD on Crowns, also purchased both Chapters and every DLC that isn't just a pair of dungeons, but i still spend most of my playtime in Cyrodiil.

i mean, you're welcome. happy to help.

Samadhi · July 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

...The Rune Cage rework was originally intended to address this, but its lack of counterplay has caused more problems than it's solved. It is understandable that ZOS is caught in a tough situation with this ability.
...

Just a question as someone who has not been putting many hours in recently

a while back, it was the case that trying to CC break with insufficient Stamina would get me locked into full CC durations due to Stamina not recharging while holding block
so basically, would try to CC break, would not have enough Stamina, but would keep hammering on it so that my character was effectively 'blocking' in terms of input and Stamina regen ticks would not take place

is this still the case and is it impacting people breaking out of Rune Cage?

Glass · July 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

You contradict yourself by complaining that Sload's still stacks in PvP and Rune Cage has a long stun duration, and then complaining that ZOS focuses primarily on PvP changes and ignores PvE.

As for those two changes, consider the situation. Sload's and Rune Cage sit atop complex underlying issues, and only a month and a half has passed since our first class rep meeting. That is very little time. I suspect that ZOS intends to further rework both, but has not yet decided on the best means of doing so. Therefore, they gave each a love tap to indicate that they are working on both and to relieve some pressure from us in the meantime and put off further reworks for later patches.

To address your specific issues, Sload's is a single target dot which becomes problematic when stacked, but it would be against mechanical consistency of the game to simply make Sload's not stack on target. This places ZOS in an awkward situation where they must consider greater reworks to the set. And Rune Cage's issue is the lack of counterplay on the long range point-and-click, unblockable, undodgeable cc, not its duration. However, reducing its range turns it into Fossilize, reducing class diversity and violating sorc's long range theme, making it dodgeable doesn't really achieve anything, and making it blockable leaves sorcs struggling to kill semi-tanky snb builds due to their generally low sustained damage and highly telegraphed combos. Sorcs went years seriously struggling to kill block builds. The Rune Cage rework was originally intended to address this, but its lack of counterplay has caused more problems than it's solved. It is understandable that ZOS is caught in a tough situation with this ability.

Honestly I would almost always agree on seeing zos point of view in every single change they make but I can't agree on this one, if they think that the only reason to make rune cage unblockable, undodgeable and at long range is to address that sorcs were having problems against the snb builds then I think they need to reevaluate on priorities, an ability with no counterplay is way up there, and even more than that if that's the reason then think about other classes like templars and wardens that don't have these type of stuns (which is even funnier is that they took away warden's only class stun that was blockable, had a cast time and it was very telegraphed and easy to avoid)

Give the team some time to figure it out. Remember, we are only on PTS patch number one, and our next meeting is coming up in less than 10 days. Instead of venting empty anger, you might also consider making concrete suggestions, as well.

I don't think venting anger is the way either but I also think that we have been ignored for a long time, sloads was addressed in the forums for some players week one on the summerset pts and we had to wait months for them to fix it and it wasn't even the change we were hoping for, as a matter of fact and this is my personal opinion and experience, I went from pvping everyday to just don't bother anymore, it felt exactly like the proc sets era, a game breaking for me and for so many other players that it was clearly visible with daily posts for months in the forums talking about the set. So like someone said before, unless is real game breaking like potion cooldown or bash dmg on the last pts they clearly showed that they won't do anything about it and I totally agree with other people showing the frustration because that is really how it feels.

ALSO...

Ward of Cyrodiil: Redesigned this item set.
OLD:
2: Stamina Recovery
3: Mounted Speed
4: Max Health
5: Increase the amount of damage you block by 8%.
NEW:
2: Weapon Damage
3: Stamina Recovery
4: Stamina Recovery
5: When you deal melee damage, you apply Major Defile to the enemy for 4 seconds, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 30%. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

This is a complete joke, this is when you say "WHAT ON EARTH WERE THEY THINKING!?" not only people have been complaining about Durok's since forever but now they made a new set with decent 2, 3 and 4 bonus stats that entirely contradicts the patch notes with the global implications of "Reducing the duration of snare and defile effects", this set has an 80% uptime on any melee build.
So yea... looking it from this point of view making concrete suggestions to change doesn't seem encouraging at all when you are not listened, hopefully this class representation program will change things for better but allow me to not get my hopes on it playing since beta and seeing this happen over and over for years on one way or another with every major patch.

ZOS_JesC · July 2018

Greetings, we removed a few off-topic comments as to not derail this thread. This is a reminder to keep comments on topic and constructive. Thank you.

Mureel · July 2018

Swifigames wrote: »

I would like to thank the entire PvP population for helping carry the PvE aspect of ESO to it's current point. Without all of those money dropping PvPers would we all be enjoying the bustling expansion on the PvE side of the game?
I'm not saying the sole reason for ESO's current success is solely on the PvP communities shoulders, everyone that has put time into ESO has, but by golly I bet a stack of Psijic crates the PvP community helped quite a bit financially...this is of course just a hypothesis.
That said, Cyrodiil is worth saving! It is Cyrodiil after all.
Maybe I should take a nap...pretty tired

Nice meme.

BNOC · July 2018

Stovahkiin wrote: »

I lol’d hard when OP claimed that Zeni is only catering to pvp players.

Reality check: Cyrodiil performance has been going downhill for years, and Zeni hasn’t even gone as far as lifting a finger to fix it. You only need one hand to count the number of substantial updates that pvp players have gotten since launch.
1. Imp City
2. Battlegrounds
3. Towns (barely counts, tbh)
4. Removal of doors from towers?...
5. Uhh

Dueling doesn’t count since it’s something that should have been included at launch, and is a feature found in basically every other mmo.

I also did.

1. Was a PvE haven also, now, that's 95% of what it is.
2. Implemented game modes where PvP'ing doesn't actually matter but as a whole, the one significant PVP update.
3. Towns definitely do not count and they were implemented in a terrible way that doesn't benefit AD.
4. I'm pretty sure even that change was to benefit the PvE-gone-PvP-zergers who were mindlessly walking in whilst a tower farm was going on.
5. Uhhhhhhhhh sounds right.

Feanor · July 2018

Erm...how do the changes to Sloads, RC, Defiles and Incap affect PvE? Or even more, "screw over" PvE players? That's not the case at all.

casparian · July 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

You contradict yourself by complaining that Sload's still stacks in PvP and Rune Cage has a long stun duration, and then complaining that ZOS focuses primarily on PvP changes and ignores PvE.

As for those two changes, consider the situation. Sload's and Rune Cage sit atop complex underlying issues, and only a month and a half has passed since our first class rep meeting. That is very little time. I suspect that ZOS intends to further rework both, but has not yet decided on the best means of doing so. Therefore, they gave each a love tap to indicate that they are working on both and to relieve some pressure from us in the meantime and put off further reworks for later patches.

To address your specific issues, Sload's is a single target dot which becomes problematic when stacked, but it would be against mechanical consistency of the game to simply make Sload's not stack on target. This places ZOS in an awkward situation where they must consider greater reworks to the set. And Rune Cage's issue is the lack of counterplay on the long range point-and-click, unblockable, undodgeable cc, not its duration. However, reducing its range turns it into Fossilize, reducing class diversity and violating sorc's long range theme, making it dodgeable doesn't really achieve anything, and making it blockable leaves sorcs struggling to kill semi-tanky snb builds due to their generally low sustained damage and highly telegraphed combos. Sorcs went years seriously struggling to kill block builds. The Rune Cage rework was originally intended to address this, but its lack of counterplay has caused more problems than it's solved. It is understandable that ZOS is caught in a tough situation with this ability.

Give the team some time to figure it out. Remember, we are only on PTS patch number one, and our next meeting is coming up in less than 10 days. Instead of venting empty anger, you might also consider making concrete suggestions, as well.

WTB more love taps

Pops_ND_Irish · July 2018

Horrid decisions ? hehe
I have to work harder in the game, darn it !

W0lf_z13 · July 2018

i think OP, when claiming Zeni is "catering to the PvPers" is basically looking at it skill wise... with all the nerfs and such .... which in a sense i understand. However... when it comes to PvE... NO-ONE is going to be complaining about killing an NPC too fast, i mean... that IS the whole point in DPS... killing things as fast as possible.... It isn't until you are actually playing against another player that uses X skill until you realize ... wow that skill possibly hits harder than it should....

BUT... that's about where the line is drawn in terms of PvPers being "catered to" Cyrodiil has been a mess for over a year now... and its just been getting worse and worse with each major update

Azyle1 · July 2018

All people do here is complain. Glad I do not come here everyday.

Matthew_Galvanus · July 2018

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

i think OP, when claiming Zeni is "catering to the PvPers" is basically looking at it skill wise... with all the nerfs and such .... which in a sense i understand. However... when it comes to PvE... NO-ONE is going to be complaining about killing an NPC too fast, i mean... that IS the whole point in DPS... killing things as fast as possible.... It isn't until you are actually playing against another player that uses X skill until you realize ... wow that skill possibly hits harder than it should....

BUT... that's about where the line is drawn in terms of PvPers being "catered to" Cyrodiil has been a mess for over a year now... and its just been getting worse and worse with each major update

thank you. It is weird how so many people are incapable of drawing that conclusion from what i stated.. maybe I should rewrite my OP post and make it much more obvious.

Sylosi · July 2018

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

i think OP, when claiming Zeni is "catering to the PvPers" is basically looking at it skill wise... with all the nerfs and such .... which in a sense i understand. However... when it comes to PvE... NO-ONE is going to be complaining about killing an NPC too fast, i mean... that IS the whole point in DPS... killing things as fast as possible.... It isn't until you are actually playing against another player that uses X skill until you realize ... wow that skill possibly hits harder than it should....

BUT... that's about where the line is drawn in terms of PvPers being "catered to" Cyrodiil has been a mess for over a year now... and its just been getting worse and worse with each major update

Except, some of the actual good PvE players do complain, for example back before Morrowind there were people in trial guilds (good ones) who were pointing out the powercreep had reached such a level that mechanics in the supposed hardest PvE content in the game were being trivialised or even bypassed (let alone the joke that most dungeons had become), this was one of the reasons that sustain was nerfed back then.

Yet you still had clueless PvE players complaining that the sustain nerf was down to PvP...

But yes as a broader point PvE players don't complain about something doing more DPS however broken it is, which is why most of them should be ignored when it comes to balance because they have zero interest in the gameplay as the Skinner Box zombies most are that just want their little shiny things as fast as possible, they are the cancer on this genre and why it is in the state it is.

W0lf_z13 · July 2018

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

i think OP, when claiming Zeni is "catering to the PvPers" is basically looking at it skill wise... with all the nerfs and such .... which in a sense i understand. However... when it comes to PvE... NO-ONE is going to be complaining about killing an NPC too fast, i mean... that IS the whole point in DPS... killing things as fast as possible.... It isn't until you are actually playing against another player that uses X skill until you realize ... wow that skill possibly hits harder than it should....

BUT... that's about where the line is drawn in terms of PvPers being "catered to" Cyrodiil has been a mess for over a year now... and its just been getting worse and worse with each major update

thank you. It is weird how so many people are incapable of drawing that conclusion from what i stated.. maybe I should rewrite my OP post and make it much more obvious.

i think it was just the wording tbh .... as a pvper i can see how people misunderstood the wording of "catering" to be as "zos is putting all of their attention into cyrodiil and neglecting pve"

FakeFox · July 2018

Stovahkiin wrote: »

I lol’d hard when OP claimed that Zeni is only catering to pvp players.

Reality check: Cyrodiil performance has been going downhill for years, and Zeni hasn’t even gone as far as lifting a finger to fix it. You only need one hand to count the number of substantial updates that pvp players have gotten since launch.
1. Imp City
2. Battlegrounds
3. Towns (barely counts, tbh)
4. Removal of doors from towers?...
5. Uhh

Dueling doesn’t count since it’s something that should have been included at launch, and is a feature found in basically every other mmo.

You forgot about midyear mayhem. A really great time to take a vacation, because you can't enter Cyrodiil anyway.

Azurya · July 2018

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

I know this seems like a very long winded rant, but it doesn't make my point any less valid. It is time you stopped acting like you can juggle PvE and PvP together and not have it become a colossal mess. They need to be entirely separate from one another, end of story.

they do it anyway.......... it is like the run of the lemmings towards the cliff.............. nothing can stop it

Matthew_Galvanus · July 2018

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

i think it was just the wording tbh .... as a pvper i can see how people misunderstood the wording of "catering" to be as "zos is putting all of their attention into cyrodiil and neglecting pve"

Well i have rewritten my opening post, hopefully it is much clearer

Kuramas9tails · July 2018

Trying to balance PVE and PVP has always been a struggling act for ZOS.

Jaimeh · July 2018

Stovahkiin wrote: »

I lol’d hard when OP claimed that Zeni is only catering to pvp players.

Reality check: Cyrodiil performance has been going downhill for years, and Zeni hasn’t even gone as far as lifting a finger to fix it. You only need one hand to count the number of substantial updates that pvp players have gotten since launch.
1. Imp City
2. Battlegrounds
3. Towns (barely counts, tbh)
4. Removal of doors from towers?...
5. Uhh

Dueling doesn’t count since it’s something that should have been included at launch, and is a feature found in basically every other mmo.

Performance is bad though across the board: there are many bugs in trials and dungeons, it's just more obvious in PvP because the nature of it takes a bigger toll on performance. However, that does not retract from the fact that many iconic skills lost their great features as a direct result of PvP concerns, and that has really hurt PvE gameplay. OP is not wrong to comment on it, or indeed express the need for separating the two.