For how long we are still having cloak to be used indiscriminately?

Azurya · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

there are sets helping with detection, there are skills, pots and much more, if nobody uses it, their failure...............

Azurya · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

magelight buffs enough, flare is always an option, one in a grp should have it and so on
and
being a selfnamed specialist, doesn´t make you a specialist, Derra

SilverWF · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

Radiant also prevents you from being stunned from stealth and decreases damage from stealth attacks for you and allies around.
And stealth - not only Cloak, but crouching too

Crouching is the worst part of the game btw. How it's even possible to not see the enemy in the plain field, who just in 20m away from you?

Mayrael · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

What other defensive skill can be COMPLETLY negated by potion or certain skill or any aoe damage? Can we have skills and potions that disable shields or streak for a period of a time? I would love to slot them JUST TO COUNTER shields or bolt escape.

Maybe you have experience in PvP Derra but you're biased as frack.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

What other defensive skill can be COMPLETLY negated by potion or certain skill or any aoe damage? Can we have skills and potions that disable shields or streak for a period of a time? I would love to slot them JUST TO COUNTER shields or bolt escape.

Maybe you have experience in PvP Derra but you're biased as frack.

Defensive rune by immo pots

Mayrael · July 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

What other defensive skill can be COMPLETLY negated by potion or certain skill or any aoe damage? Can we have skills and potions that disable shields or streak for a period of a time? I would love to slot them JUST TO COUNTER shields or bolt escape.

Maybe you have experience in PvP Derra but you're biased as frack.

Rune cage by immo pots

Since when rune cage is defensive skill? Yes it can be used this way, so as high pressure on your opponent because when he has to defend him self he can't attack you, so is this making high DPS a defensive tool?

Feanor · July 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

Cenom wrote: »

I really think it should have the same treatment as streak, to increase it's cost with every use.

To balance out make it grant major expedition or something like this so Nightblades can still run away or go for a gank, but don't let people play perm stealth using a skill, they should use sneak instead if they want, since cloak is not counter able by just playing the game instead of setting up specially against it. By using detection potions or some skills.

Not to mention it's easy sustain, with Syphoning Strikes. Which I still can't understand why is not touched yet.

I don't mind giving Nightblades more tools of suvivability, but the way it's designed atm is toxic.

Ok, increase its cost with each consecutive cast BUT cloak from now can't be broken by anything. Can we agree on this?

That would be a ridiculous buff.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

What other defensive skill can be COMPLETLY negated by potion or certain skill or any aoe damage? Can we have skills and potions that disable shields or streak for a period of a time? I would love to slot them JUST TO COUNTER shields or bolt escape.

Maybe you have experience in PvP Derra but you're biased as frack.

Rune cage by immo pots

Since when rune cage is defensive skill? Yes it can be used this way, so as high pressure on your opponent because when he has to defend him self he can't attack you, so is this making high DPS a defensive tool?

Confused nsme of the defensive morph. Now again. Def rune gets shut down by immo pots.

Mayrael · July 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

What other defensive skill can be COMPLETLY negated by potion or certain skill or any aoe damage? Can we have skills and potions that disable shields or streak for a period of a time? I would love to slot them JUST TO COUNTER shields or bolt escape.

Maybe you have experience in PvP Derra but you're biased as frack.

Rune cage by immo pots

Since when rune cage is defensive skill? Yes it can be used this way, so as high pressure on your opponent because when he has to defend him self he can't attack you, so is this making high DPS a defensive tool?

Confused nsme of the defensive morph. Now again. Def rune gets shut down by immo pots.

Nope it's not. It isn't used if attacker is cc immune, right after effect ends he get stunned immediately.

Mayrael · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Cenom wrote: »

I really think it should have the same treatment as streak, to increase it's cost with every use.

To balance out make it grant major expedition or something like this so Nightblades can still run away or go for a gank, but don't let people play perm stealth using a skill, they should use sneak instead if they want, since cloak is not counter able by just playing the game instead of setting up specially against it. By using detection potions or some skills.

Not to mention it's easy sustain, with Syphoning Strikes. Which I still can't understand why is not touched yet.

I don't mind giving Nightblades more tools of suvivability, but the way it's designed atm is toxic.

Ok, increase its cost with each consecutive cast BUT cloak from now can't be broken by anything. Can we agree on this?

That would be a ridiculous buff.

Yes it would be ridiculous buff, same as increasing cost on skill that can be broken by so many things would be a ridiculous nerf. So let's get a compromise. Cloak gets increasing cost but when it is broken before it expires its cost is refunded completely.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2018

Guess we have to disagree then. I mean yes it ccs after immunity but so you can cloak after ml restriction is over or after aoe took you out of cloak. But for the moment it does nothing. Usually the moment you need it the most.

DDuke · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

That's why it'd be ideal if revealing a NB from cloak disabled it for 2-3 seconds. And of course garbage skills like Evil Hunter/Radiant Magelight should be more worth slotting.

"A visual effect will now appear over your character’s head when using Detection Potions, Magelight, or Expert Hunter to notify other players of your ability to see sneaking/invisible enemies"

Instead they made them less worth slotting.

And they made sload not break cloak anymore.

Yeah this one is another nightblade secret love-child patch. I swear ZOS...

zos didn´t read the part where cloak is frustrating to play against - only the part where it was frustrating to play with resulting in this:

Nightblades
The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground.

Hold on, did I miss the nerfs to det pots & Piercing Mark? Curse/POTL?

What they did was fix a broken aspect of a broken set introduced in the last update, they didn't touch any of the long standing issues with cloak.

They´ve made qol changes for nbs to be able to see when someone can detect them - making it easier to avoid those people - so they´ve improved the detect counterplay while doing nothing to aid cloak counterplay?

I play my fair share of nb these days and this is a huge improvement over the already overperforming situation on the live server.
Only issue left from the cloak users perspective (after det pot having counterplay and sload being "fixed" by putting nb in the special snowflake position alongside templars to hardcounter it) is piercing mark.

Yeah, you can now see who has "I win" mode toggled on and can get a free kill on you. Now you can just sneak and hide from the-, oh right...

Nice "counterplay" that barely affects the fight itself (it can keep you from spamming cloak like an *** if you can see the attacker) - doesn't change the fact you're still screwed when someone uses a det pot.

Derra wrote: »

Edit: You always make it seem like cloak should work as a reliably defense on 10k magica +baseregen builds. Imo it should not. You can´t expect block or dodge to work as a reliable defense with 10k stam + baseregen.
If you want a defense to work reliably as part of your build you should have to build for it.

"Reliable"? No, it has never been that.

Personally I'm fine with just being able to cloak 2-3 times in a row, I combine those with sneak anyway.

If you've somehow construed any of my post(s) to mean that stamblades should be able to spam cloak more often I apologize, that is not what I'm trying to imply at all. What we have right now is sufficiently difficult when it comes to sustaining cloaking on stamblade.

What I'm still not fine with is having all those primary defenses of a rogue/assassin style character taken away by one button click like Piercing Mark. That just means I've got to run away from the fight (if possible), wait 30 freaking seconds for the Mark to drop and only then am I allowed to run back and actually play the game.

...and det pot as mentioned is just a free win vs medium armor non-tank stamblade. Either it runs them out of stamina or it runs them out of health - one of the two.

Mayrael · July 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Guess we have to disagree then. I mean yes it ccs after immunity but so you can cloak after ml restriction is over or after aoe took you out of cloak. But for the moment it does nothing. Usually the moment you need it the most.

Comparing defensive rune to cloak is like comparing defensive rune to shield. It has completely different usage. Also there is no skill or potion to remove defensive rune from sorc, sooner or later attacker would have to eat this stun, while all you need to do to stop NB from cloaking completely is to use any of mentioned counters and you're disabling MAIN DEFENSIVE ability of a class. It's like disabling sorcs hardened ward or roll dodge of any stam class, not a death sentence but makes surviving a lot harder, while defensive run is just a random stun that can be broken immediately. It's purpose is completely different, this is not a main defensive skill but just an additional skill that is excellent in negating others ganking ability.

Marabornwingrion · July 2018

L2P issue:

1. piercing mark
2. detection potion
3. magelight
4. dots (sload)
5. expert hunter
6. revealing flare
7. self buffs (spiked armor)
8. aoes

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Guess we have to disagree then. I mean yes it ccs after immunity but so you can cloak after ml restriction is over or after aoe took you out of cloak. But for the moment it does nothing. Usually the moment you need it the most.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Guess we have to disagree then. I mean yes it ccs after immunity but so you can cloak after ml restriction is over or after aoe took you out of cloak. But for the moment it does nothing. Usually the moment you need it the most.

Comparing defensive rune to cloak is like comparing defensive rune to shield. It has completely different usage. Also there is no skill or potion to remove defensive rune from sorc, sooner or later attacker would have to eat this stun, while all you need to do to stop NB from cloaking completely is to use any of mentioned counters and you're disabling MAIN DEFENSIVE ability of a class. It's like disabling sorcs hardened ward or roll dodge of any stam class, not a death sentence but makes surviving a lot harder, while defensive run is just a random stun that can be broken immediately. It's purpose is completely different, this is not a main defensive skill but just an additional skill that is excellent in negating others ganking ability.

Ok. Fair enough.

usmcjdking · July 2018

With the exception of Radiant Magelight, the rest of the cloak counters are either a) class specific b) garbage.

brandonv516 · July 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Cenom wrote: »

I really think it should have the same treatment as streak, to increase it's cost with every use.

To balance out make it grant major expedition or something like this so Nightblades can still run away or go for a gank, but don't let people play perm stealth using a skill, they should use sneak instead if they want, since cloak is not counter able by just playing the game instead of setting up specially against it. By using detection potions or some skills.

Not to mention it's easy sustain, with Syphoning Strikes. Which I still can't understand why is not touched yet.

I don't mind giving Nightblades more tools of suvivability, but the way it's designed atm is toxic.

Ok, increase its cost with each consecutive cast BUT cloak from now can't be broken by anything. Can we agree on this?

That would be a ridiculous buff.

Yes it would be ridiculous buff, same as increasing cost on skill that can be broken by so many things would be a ridiculous nerf. So let's get a compromise. Cloak gets increasing cost but when it is broken before it expires its cost is refunded completely.

I think you're on to something here. This feels balanced.

Slight modification: Initial cost of Cloak needs to be about 1k less than current. Then give it the Streak treatment. If Cloak is broken, magicka cost is refunded.

As a magicka NB main, I would be okay with this.

Feanor · July 2018

Astrid_V wrote: »

L2P issue:

1. piercing mark ----> is a NB exclusive skill
2. detection potion ---> is active for only 15 seconds and single target abilities still can miss
3. magelight ----> costs quite some magicka for a detection radius increase of just 6m (skill has 12m, base player detection radius is 6m)
4. dots (sload) ----> with 4.1.0 Sloads won't break cloak any longer, DoTs aren't available equally across classes
5. expert hunter ----> has a large stamina cost
6. revealing flare ---> easy to avoid because of the projectile arc
7. self buffs (spiked armor) ---> DK specific skill
8. aoes ---> are not cheap and have small radius

The counters are very situational and mostly useless except in a perfect situation.

Ragnaroek93 · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

Shieldbreaker, Shattering Blows

Feanor · July 2018

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

Shieldbreaker, Shattering Blows

You might have had a point when the CP cap was 300. But with 780? Also you of course can break a shield without a counter at all. Raw damage is sufficient. No raw damage in the world will help you vs an invisible opponent though.

DDuke · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

L2P issue:

1. piercing mark ----> is a NB exclusive skill
2. detection potion ---> is active for only 15 seconds and single target abilities still can miss
3. magelight ----> costs quite some magicka for a detection radius increase of just 6m (skill has 12m, base player detection radius is 6m)
4. dots (sload) ----> with 4.1.0 Sloads won't break cloak any longer, DoTs aren't available equally across classes
5. expert hunter ----> has a large stamina cost
6. revealing flare ---> easy to avoid because of the projectile arc
7. self buffs (spiked armor) ---> DK specific skill
8. aoes ---> are not cheap and have small radius

The counters are very situational and mostly useless except in a perfect situation.

You mention cost a lot of times when speaking of counters.

I hope you're aware that Cloak isn't a cheap skill either for stamblades - far from it (especially in noCP).

In comparison, Reflective Scales for example is cheaper for stam DKs & counters sorcs (which btw have strongest anti-cloak abilities in Streak & Curse) and other ranged builds much better than cloak.

I get the feeling these types of threads are less about "let's balance the game" and more about "let's nerf things I find annoying".

Feanor · July 2018

@DDuke

Yes, it's not cheap, and it shouldn't be for what it does. I just wanted to point out that "cloak has so many counters" is correct if you look at the quantity, but not if you look at the quality. And I don't think you need to be able to spam cloak either to reset a fight given the NB toolkit. Reflective Scales will be annoying after the buff it got because now every DK will probably run it, but at least there are things that aren't affected (Crushing Shock/Pulse/Curse/Meteor/Resto staff heavies). Can't hit someone who isn't visible.

TequilaFire · July 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

cloak is our only defense, and our only way to play stealth.
there's nothing wrong with cloak, please leave us nightblades alone.

Nope. You got 18k health nightblades that spam snipe from the safety of stealth that cry for sorc nerfs continuously on the forums. Time to share the love.

How about sorcs that spam rune cage and their execute from the safety of the keep top with impunity?
Time for the most OP class to "share the love".

Zelos · July 2018

You cant compare cloak and streak as they are both drastically different end of discussion.

vamp_emily · July 2018

I play mag NB a lot and I can tell from my point of view there are SOOOO MANY ways to take me out of cloak and totally destroy me.

I wish NBs had one button that they could spam to remove all healing powers from healers, all health from tanks, and all damage from sorc. That sounds fair doesn't it? if you can disable NB's main skill don't you think NB's should be able to do the same to other classes?

Feanor · July 2018

vamp_emily wrote: »

I play mag NB a lot and I can tell from my point of view there are SOOOO MANY ways to take me out of cloak and totally destroy me.

I wish NBs had one button that they could spam to remove all healing powers from healers, all health from tanks, and all damage from sorc. That sounds fair doesn't it? if you can disable NB's main skill don't you think NB's should be able to do the same to other classes?

What happens if you are not taken out of cloak? That’s the real question. You either get a kill or can escape. Healing, HP or damage doesn’t do both.

Derra · July 2018

Azurya wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

magelight buffs enough, flare is always an option, one in a grp should have it and so on
and
being a selfnamed specialist, doesn´t make you a specialist, Derra

what does radiant magelight provide you with?

critbuff that is obtained elsewhere for most builds bc spellpower pots are too good.
no stun from sneak is a strawman - because for that you have to doublebar it. Also as most people seem to comfortably ignore it doesn´t work against NB supriseattack stun because that is not a sneak stun.
empower? - no longer a real desireable buff.

It provides exactly what i said it does otherwise useless and redundant stuff.

Mayrael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Radiant Magelight has 12m

All you all want is to be successful in PVP with PVE skills and setups.

How about 'NO'?

What other skill requires specific counters to be slotted against it in the first place (that are otherwise useless/provide redundant buffs if at all).

What other defensive skill can be COMPLETLY negated by potion or certain skill or any aoe damage? Can we have skills and potions that disable shields or streak for a period of a time? I would love to slot them JUST TO COUNTER shields or bolt escape.

Maybe you have experience in PvP Derra but you're biased as frack.

I play two nightblades regularly

.

Also detect pots do in fact not counter cloak for projectile based builds - the forcemiss still exists even with a pot used.

The problem is that i´m able to see past the situations where cloak is weak and useless (which it is at times) and also accept that there are equally many situations where cloak is absolutely broken overpowered. Most NB players seem to only take into account the first situation and comfortably forget about the latter.
Cloak is actually the point in which i agree 100% with the class rep feedback posted earlier. It needs more middleground - mark or pots are too good (pots got adressed somewhat this patch). The other counters are too weak and singlepurpose.

ZOS_JesC · July 2018

Greetings, we've removed several derailing comments. This is a friendly reminder to keep our forum rules in mind when posting. Comments should be on topic with the thread and constructive. Thank you.

SshadowSscale · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

oh i don´t agree with the topic either - i think cloak counters need buffing or reworks.

Maybe a buff to base detection range would be a start. 6m is essentially 2 steps in 1 direction.

Then I lose my stam recovery...either lose mag or lose sustain....and just because dude ove been pvping from this games release...so he doesnt have that much time on me

Derra · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

That's why it'd be ideal if revealing a NB from cloak disabled it for 2-3 seconds. And of course garbage skills like Evil Hunter/Radiant Magelight should be more worth slotting.

"A visual effect will now appear over your character’s head when using Detection Potions, Magelight, or Expert Hunter to notify other players of your ability to see sneaking/invisible enemies"

Instead they made them less worth slotting.

And they made sload not break cloak anymore.

Yeah this one is another nightblade secret love-child patch. I swear ZOS...

zos didn´t read the part where cloak is frustrating to play against - only the part where it was frustrating to play with resulting in this:

Nightblades
The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground.

Hold on, did I miss the nerfs to det pots & Piercing Mark? Curse/POTL?

What they did was fix a broken aspect of a broken set introduced in the last update, they didn't touch any of the long standing issues with cloak.

They´ve made qol changes for nbs to be able to see when someone can detect them - making it easier to avoid those people - so they´ve improved the detect counterplay while doing nothing to aid cloak counterplay?

I play my fair share of nb these days and this is a huge improvement over the already overperforming situation on the live server.
Only issue left from the cloak users perspective (after det pot having counterplay and sload being "fixed" by putting nb in the special snowflake position alongside templars to hardcounter it) is piercing mark.

Yeah, you can now see who has "I win" mode toggled on and can get a free kill on you. Now you can just sneak and hide from the-, oh right...

Nice "counterplay" that barely affects the fight itself (it can keep you from spamming cloak like an *** if you can see the attacker) - doesn't change the fact you're still screwed when someone uses a det pot.

Again - true for builds that are able to hit through cloak with a detect pot.
Try it on a magblade/magsorc with projectiles - they´re still forcemissed.

I know that it´s broken weak at times but you´re also ignoring the fact that it can be broken strong aswell. There is no consistency.

On my stamsorc or stamblade i hardly even need a det pot. Counterplay´s available plenty.
On my magblade ranged build i can pop a potion and during the whole timer i won´t be able to hit the nb once (which is why i run mark most of the time).
An utterly undesireable situation regarding skill + counterplay IMO.
Mark is garbage conceptionally. Detpots are gargabe conceptionally. Playing against cloak without those on classes without good softcounters slotted is also 100% trash.

Furthermore your builds cloaking 2 or 3 times are exactly what i mean. Those should be screwed by a single countermove because you´re not building to cloak at all.