[Poll] Dungeon DLC Negativity

geofhob14_ESO · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Why so much hate on DLC dungeons? Yes they are hard(er) than the original dungeons and nearly impossible to clear with a pug group with low CP players or players who are currently unfamiliar with the mechanics.

But why should everything be a cake walk like overworld (overland?) content? I have a feeling that the people calling for this value the story and exploration more and I respect that. But there is the flip side of the equation. The devs have to strike a balance of having enough story/ zones/ quests but also introduce hard and challenging content that not everyone can clear easily. Plenty of people enjoy the challenge. Does this have to be an all or nothing?

To say DLC dungeons are nothing but DPS checks is also untrue. There is still lore and mechanics. But heck, even if it was a pure DPs check...so what? This is an MMO and most if not all MMOs have these elements. Do what you like and allow others to do what they love.

adriant1978 · July 2018

They should be private group dungeons but they should scale to the party number and have difficulty settings.

Don't have anything against dungeons as such, but as an introvert I rather wish I could solo them or at least duo them with my girlfriend. I dislike grouping with strangers and I'm not social enough to get into guilds for anything except trading.

And yes, before anyone accuses me of wanting something for nothing, if the difficulty scales the reward should scale with it.

IwakuraLain42 · July 2018

I personally would wish they released DLC dungeons once in a while that would absolutely be playable by normal players and that would actually rewards you to run them (you know, this is a loot game).
This is where the current batch of dungeons fail miserably, the veteran versions are extremely hard and unforgiven but have all the desired loot (monster helmets, motif pages) while the normal versions don't offer anything worthwhile.

I find it strange for a supposed MMORPG to neglect to offer any playable and worthwhile group content for the majority of their players (the chapters and story DLC are all single player offerings).

HappyLittleTree · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Gid gud or die trying.

Best thing is organize a group yourself to tackle these dungeons.
get guild members to progession in these dungeons.

If you can't do them otherwise learn mechanics on normal (do not kill bosses just figure out how they work)

WIN.LOOT.

HappyLittleTree · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

I personally would wish they released DLC dungeons once in a while that would absolutely be playable by normal players and that would actually rewards you to run them (you know, this is a loot game).
This is where the current batch of dungeons fail miserably, the veteran versions are extremely hard and unforgiven but have all the desired loot (monster helmets, motif pages) while the normal versions don't offer anything worthwhile.

I find it strange for a supposed MMORPG to neglect to offer any playable and worthwhile group content for the majority of their players (the chapters and story DLC are all single player offerings).

Normal dungeons still offer dungeon equipment. most people run normal dungeons to get loot faster. If you want the good stuff you have to earn it.

Fischblut · July 2018

Quit making dungeon DLCs, they should only bother with content DLCs (Clockwork City, Thieves Guild) and quality of life DLCs (Homestead, One Tamriel).

Technically dungeons should always be part of zone DLC.

Also I agree with everything here

zaria · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

My only issue with these DLCs is that they are rolled out like they are normal DLCs. They take up an entire Quarter and we essentially have to wait 4-6 months for actual content that the average player can engage for longer than an hour or two. Not to mention that they are typically overpriced for what they bring to the game compared to similarly priced DLC that unlock new zones.

Yes in an perfect world we would get an story dlc with either an trial or two dungeons 3 time a year, this would however be far more work. Dungeon dlc is fairly easy to make so they have 3 teams now one do next dungeon, one do murkmire, and one next chapter, dungeon group either help with chapter or start on next two dungeons the story dlc group help with chapter once they are done

Darkstorne · July 2018

Soella wrote: »

Dungeon DLC cater only for relatively small percentage of players, so one such DLC per year is more than enough I think.

I would be OK with couple dungeon DLC/year if they introduce "story" mode for dungeons - easy to solo, no gear drop - plus some quest line leading to the dungeon. Still much less development than proper content DLC, but at least something to do for casuals.

Story mode would be awesome actually. Make them solo dungeons with no respawns so they play more like traditional TES dungeons, and you can take your time to stealth through without worrying about other players blitzing past you and aggroing everything like they do in public and normal dungeons. Also opens dungeon set gear up to casual players, but maybe they should mostly drop in green, sometimes blue, to make group versions more rewarding?

EDIT: Mostly I think dungeon DLC quarters are fine though. It's good for group players, and there's no way ZOS could pump out more exploration/zone DLC than they are right now. I would love to see the 1st Quarter DLC being something more unique though, like a wildcard that adds something new each year. Housing last year, so that was great, but just more dungeons this year.

AlnilamE · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Delves and Public Dungeons are not particularly interesting and outside of daily quests like the ones in the DLC zones are a once-per-character proposition for the achievement and skyshard.

I don't think that would go over well as a DLC without a zone attached to it.

Group dungeons are far more repeateable, because you can go learn them, then take your friends through them.

AuldWolf wrote: »

For those curious of my motivations for this thread? I made a post in this topic about the toxicity of trials. Essentially, trials being as they are now will always be toxic since the power lies with sociopathic people. Even if you do something as simple as make them continually scale to the party count (so if someone gets kicked, the dungeon accounts for that), it takes power away from those people who're solely responsible for trial toxicity.

Am I wrong?

I think you are. It is perfectly possible to run normal trials with a group of friendly people. My guild did weekly "trials with training wheels" for over a year and we had a lot of fun, even when we didn't succeed on the first try. It all depends on who your raid leader is. If they won't put up with BS, then they will kick people who are not behaving, no ands, ifs or buts.

That said, I think some self-awareness is necessary when running trials because you are part of a group and you need to do your part. So if you are not willing to look at your performance and make adjustments if necessary, then you are not being a team player, which is also a form or toxicity, IMO.

I'm not talking about going for max DPS or stuff like that (for normal trials), but making adjustments to your skill bar so the group has all buffs/debuffs they can get, as well as looking into which skills are most useful for the situation at hand.

jlmurra2 · July 2018

LonePirate wrote: »

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Most of what I read on this forum makes me feel quality of life updates, fixing, and enhancing existing content, and rebalancing gameplay/classes/race passives would be much more appreciated than than adding more DLCs at this time.

Once those things are addressed, then more DLCs would be great.

You’re looking at things from a customer perspective and not from an accounting perspective. ZOS cannot sell that sort of update. It can’t be packaged separately from the current game and sold in the Crown Store. As such, ZOS has zero incentive to do that. What they can do is crank out a couple of dungeons and put those in the Crown Store for players to buy because those dungeons constitute a revenue source.

Without a profit motive, there is no reason for any business to act. We’re long past the days of any business existing simply to satisfy customers.

I understand how you feel, but I disagree that ZOS would have zero incentive to focus more resources to improve the base game. Also I feel anyone who makes decisions of what content to release should absolutely be concerned about their customer's perspective since all revenue income is obtained from customers.

I've never read any data on how many casual vs non casual or competitive vs non competitive players currently play or subscribe to ESO, but I would assume that Dungeon DLCs sell less than content expansions like Clockwork City.

The base game should be a priority. Most players that enjoy the dungeon DLCs seem to work through them rather quickly compared to other content, then it's back to the base game, or DLC content with more content.

If the base game content was treated as if there is zero interest to improve it, over time customer perspective would decline, due to the base game affecting all DLC content, and of course how people feel about the game overall. This would leave fewer people playing the game. At that point dungeon DLC or any other type would decline in sales volume.

tunepunk · July 2018

They should be private group dungeons but they should scale to the party number and have difficulty settings.

I like dungeon crawls. I would love to see some randomly generated dungeon content. Deeep ....deeep dungeons where you can get lost in for hours at normal or veteran group difficulty level, or at least a vet solo mode of you choose to do them solo.

Procedural dungeons so you always feel you're getting something fresh. I've done the regular dungeons 100's of times on several characters already, and although there are quite few of them, they are getting boring.

Go to nearest undaunted, mages, fighters, thieves, or any other guild to get those dungeon crawls....

Fighters guild could be random procedural oblivion planes.
Thieves guild, could be random procedural sewers, etc.
and so on....

Make the long, deep hard, in various enviroments, with rewards with old and new sets, styles.

That's what I would like.

Reverb · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

There are delves and/or public dungeons in each chapter and adventure zone dlc. The dungeon DLCs are for those of us who want more difficult 4-man content. Zeni is smart to cater to that part of their player base. Though I wouldn't be opposed to each dlc dungeon having a delve counterpart next to it on the map.

Inarre · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Just because you don't like trials and think that people who do are "sociopathic" does not mean that they should get less content updates.

Everyone should be able to play how they want and receive content updates equally. Far as I can tell the only one who is getting shafted there are the PVPers.

The perception that DLC dungeons are never played or that there is "too much trial content" is likely a biased perspective based on whatever content your friends do. If you asked another guild they might say that there is too much questing content... But just because someone thinks that does not mean ZOS should stop adding it.

idk · July 2018

1. Dungeons are content, and meaningful content at that, which is someone OP seems confused about with his/her poll.
2. Yes, the game is probably heavy on dungeons ATM.
3. It is certainly not heavy on trials though. It is laughable that it would be considered heavy on raids.

I did not vote because the idea and the poll are not well conceived.

phileunderx2 · July 2018

They should be private group dungeons but they should scale to the party number and have difficulty settings.

I'm not against new dungeons. I do not like that with each release of new ones that they are mechanic and rng heavy. Do the mechanic correctly and you might have a chance to survive it. Um no I'm not going to support that.

Samadhi · July 2018

AuldWolf wrote: »

...
I'm going to keep this simple: How should they fix that? Let's try and discover the general sentiment. ...

Please provide the capacity to Queue for a Random Veteran Dungeon that does not include DLC dungeons while keeping my sub active
do not mind getting them on random normal, but all my characters are vet now and 9 days out of 10 the DLC ones are too stressful for me,
which results in just no longer using the random dungeon tool for Vet, despite finding pugging through random Vet non-DLCs to be fun

would not pay for the dungeon DLCs individually, but am pretty okay with the occasional run -- the random tool just gives me DLC ones far more often than occasionally

IwakuraLain42 · July 2018

DarkScatha wrote: »

Gid gud or die trying.

Best thing is organize a group yourself to tackle these dungeons.
get guild members to progession in these dungeons.

If you can't do them otherwise learn mechanics on normal (do not kill bosses just figure out how they work)

WIN.LOOT.

You mean all those one-shot mechanics that give you exactly one second time to react (unless the game just CC's in that moment) ? Or those mechanics that constantly remove you maneuvering space unless you have super-good dps ?

Getting guild members or friends to help ? Sorry, maybe such mythical creature like PvE guilds do exist on PC, on my platform (PS4/EU) they are either non existent or perfectly well hidden. Of my friends that have able to tackle said content have long stopped playing and the rest has given up running these dungeons due to frustration.

DarkScatha wrote: »

Normal dungeons still offer dungeon equipment. most people run normal dungeons to get loot faster. If you want the good stuff you have to earn it.

Which equipment from the DLC dungeons are you actually referring to ? The only gear that I know that people farm are SPC and maybe Amberplasm/Widowmake when you PvP. Do you know what people actually want ? Stuff like Zaan, Bloodgore, Chudan, etc ...

And it's not about earning, it's about giving me a reason to actually run the content.
Because currently the game just feels like TES 5.5 for non-elite players. And the quest content (esp. CWC) isn't that good.

Apache_Kid · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

phileunderx2 wrote: »

I'm not against new dungeons. I do not like that with each release of new ones that they are mechanic and rng heavy. Do the mechanic correctly and you might have a chance to survive it. Um no I'm not going to support that.

Do the mechanic correctly and you will survive. What is wrong with having players do mechanics? And on normal most of the mechanics will not even 1-shot you. I agree the new dungeons are RNG heavy but that makes the achievements hard to do and the collectibles unique.

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

DarkScatha wrote: »

Gid gud or die trying.

Best thing is organize a group yourself to tackle these dungeons.
get guild members to progession in these dungeons.

If you can't do them otherwise learn mechanics on normal (do not kill bosses just figure out how they work)

WIN.LOOT.

You mean all those one-shot mechanics that give you exactly one second time to react (unless the game just CC's in that moment) ? Or those mechanics that constantly remove you maneuvering space unless you have super-good dps ?

Getting guild members or friends to help ? Sorry, maybe such mythical creature like PvE guilds do exist on PC, on my platform (PS4/EU) they are either non existent or perfectly well hidden. Of my friends that have able to tackle said content have long stopped playing and the rest has given up running these dungeons due to frustration.

DarkScatha wrote: »

Normal dungeons still offer dungeon equipment. most people run normal dungeons to get loot faster. If you want the good stuff you have to earn it.

Which equipment from the DLC dungeons are you actually referring to ? The only gear that I know that people farm are SPC and maybe Amberplasm/Widowmake when you PvP. Do you know what people actually want ? Stuff like Zaan, Bloodgore, Chudan, etc ...

And it's not about earning, it's about giving me a reason to actually run the content.
Because currently the game just feels like TES 5.5 for non-elite players. And the quest content (esp. CWC) isn't that good.

If the content you like isn't that good why play it then? I thought the new quests in Summerset were very good and CwC has been one of my favorite quest-lines.

There is a reason to run the content. People farm scalecaller for Jorvulds guidance and Fang Lair for Calurions legacy. Then you have the monster sets and there are also achievements to earn with really cool collectibles available if you can do them.

Samadhi · July 2018

eso_nya wrote: »

...
#1 In eso, nearly every "hard" encounter is a dps check. That means, pass the check -> no mechanics happen, fight is "to easy"; fail the check -> mechnics happen and fight gets insanely difficult/impossible.
...

ZOS could sell me on new dungeon DLCs by including more interesting combat encounters in dungeons,
so gave your post an agree but this was the part in particular that stood out as relevant to me

SirMewser · July 2018

Quit making dungeon DLCs, they should only bother with content DLCs (Clockwork City, Thieves Guild) and quality of life DLCs (Homestead, One Tamriel).

I am content with dungeon DLC packs, however, it is a bit odd to me that we don't get any new ones with; Orsinium, Thieves, Dark Brotherhood, Morrowind, Clockwork City, and Summerset Isles... Basically any of the new land content, with the exception of the odd trial dungeon here and there.

They could really up the value of those zones by simply adding one or two dungeons because once we cleared the story content, there isn't much else that is repeatable.

Personally,

I still find myself running around in Imperial City and its' dungeons, there are many little events/objectives and things to collect.
Cradle of Shadows is my favorite dungeon, both mechanically and thematically, I get excited to run it.
I may continue to run the Asylum in Clockwork City because it's an epic boss, but I will never run around on zone again after completing the story.
Morrowind was full of nostalgia, but now that I've done all the quests, I find myself just wondering around aimlessly.
Summerset Isle is beautiful and because I am an alchemist, I will revisit to collect the exclusive mats, but that may all it ever will be in the end.
Item sets that ZoS adds to DLCs seem gimmicky (Defiler and Mad Tinker come to mind), I am afraid they will remain so and will be a trend of future sets to come. (Which is too bad because they seem so fun to watch when they do work.)

Doctordarkspawn · July 2018

They should be private group dungeons but they should scale to the party number and have difficulty settings.

I picked the option I picked because it'd be nice but it's generally not why those dungeons are there.

They are there for the obsessive hardcore and status seeking crowd. They are there to satisfy those people.

And therein lies the inherent problem. When these people have those rewards for status, or when they've played it on normal, they just wont replay it.

My perscription would be, keep producing them to shut those people up, but lower the price, because if I didn't have plus, I wouldn't play these.

Guppet · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

I think that the vet versions are too hard for the average pug.

I don’t actually think that’s an issue. Their should be unpuggabke content that requires coordination.

The issue is monster helms.

Normal dungeons drop the same gear as vet, but in blue rather than purple. Why are monster helms the exception? You can get the shoulders via normal, why no helms.

If they dropped say white quality ones on normal all the hate of DLC dungeons being hard would vanish.

Almost every time I’m in a vet dungeon and there is a player there who is well out of their depth, they are there just to get the helm.

Builds are now built on 5,5,2. But you have to run vet dungeons to get that 2.

Trials already have unique elite gear you can’t get else where, there is no need for vet dlc dungeons to do the same.

The argument of its harder so should have unique rewards is bs, the improved quality is the reward, not the unique nature.

In a game with PVP, stopping some players from getting certain gear is not acceptable. If your better at PvP, you should win via skill not gear.

By making white monster helms available in normal they then ensure anyone doing vet is doing it for the right reasons and improve group quality in the group finder for those runs.

Apache_Kid · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I picked the option I picked because it'd be nice but it's generally not why those dungeons are there.

They are there for the obsessive hardcore and status seeking crowd. They are there to satisfy those people.

And therein lies the inherent problem. When these people have those rewards for status, or when they've played it on normal, they just wont replay it.

My perscription would be, keep producing them to shut those people up, but lower the price, because if I didn't have plus, I wouldn't play these.

I've helped two other groups get their scalecaller skin after getting mine and am now helping two groups get their worm wizard personality after getting mine.

You have a warped/biased view and opinion of end-game players. Pretty gross. Satisfying your most hardcore PvE players is good business practice, not a 'problem'.

Valkysas154 · July 2018

The real question is why can't things like CWC MW SS so so come with 4 man dungeons any way.
I will never pay for a DLC dungeon, and wish there was a none DLC random que.

Arkray · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

I prefer DLC dungeons actually, I've spent more hours just in Fang Lair than in Summerset for example, doing my achievements, farming my stuff and helping my friends.

They are accesible, requiring only 4 people, and challenging. They encourage you to team up with other people and you can run them a lot times to get your armor and achievements, help your friends to get them, etc., while having fun doing a challenging content.

Overland content on the other hand is too easy, gathering a lot of enemies, dropping a blockade and watching them die before the following blazing spear even lands it's not fun anymore, there is no reason to team up with other people or anything, I mean, you can, but you usually don't need them so people don't usually ask you to go and help them with X quest. Once I've done the story there is no point for me on going back there.

I've made quite a few friends, outside of my guilds ones, thanks to DLC dungeons. Sometimes you meet people there, you play together through a hard content, you like how they played and you add them to your friend list, or they add you, and then you end up doing other dungeons, trials or whatever, with them other days. I never made a friend in overland content though, pretty much nobody ask a stranger for help with something they don't really need help.

And that's why I enjoy DLC dungeons, but I also understand that there are people for everything, and that's why I voted to leave it as it is.

If they were to add overland content challenging enough to encourage you to play with others though... that's something we don't currently have, and something I would vote for.

josiahva · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

tunepunk wrote: »

I like dungeon crawls. I would love to see some randomly generated dungeon content. Deeep ....deeep dungeons where you can get lost in for hours at normal or veteran group difficulty level, or at least a vet solo mode of you choose to do them solo.

Procedural dungeons so you always feel you're getting something fresh. I've done the regular dungeons 100's of times on several characters already, and although there are quite few of them, they are getting boring.

Go to nearest undaunted, mages, fighters, thieves, or any other guild to get those dungeon crawls....

Fighters guild could be random procedural oblivion planes.
Thieves guild, could be random procedural sewers, etc.
and so on....

Make the long, deep hard, in various enviroments, with rewards with old and new sets, styles.

That's what I would like.

^^This, procedural dungeons that gives you the option of running them solo, duo, three, or 4 person. Hours long...successful completion would result in better rewards than current vet DLC dungeons, but because of the steep learning curve on the boss fights(which couple be the same even with procedurally generated rooms) might take weeks of progression to get your first clear.

As for the vet DLC dungeons...I think they are great as they are, they are my favorite content in the game, I honestly wish there were more of them.

Aren_Liore · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but what if instead of making a dungeon DLC, they put those dungeons in the small content DLC. They could increase the price of the DLC and use that quarter the dungeon DLC would have gone to publish a quality of life update to keep people happy with the game they're playing.

This would also solve the problem of people not playing the dungeon content because they don't want to pay just for the dungeons. And if they raise the price of the content DLC then they're not loosing any money. I have ESO+ so they're getting my money anyway.

I don't want them to stop making new dungeons, I just want them to package those with the content and put a little more effort into quality of life.

AlnilamE · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Guppet wrote: »

The issue is monster helms.

Normal dungeons drop the same gear as vet, but in blue rather than purple. Why are monster helms the exception? You can get the shoulders via normal, why no helms.

If they dropped say white quality ones on normal all the hate of DLC dungeons being hard would vanish.

Almost every time I’m in a vet dungeon and there is a player there who is well out of their depth, they are there just to get the helm.

Builds are now built on 5,5,2. But you have to run vet dungeons to get that 2.

Trials already have unique elite gear you can’t get else where, there is no need for vet dlc dungeons to do the same.

The argument of its harder so should have unique rewards is bs, the improved quality is the reward, not the unique nature.

In a game with PVP, stopping some players from getting certain gear is not acceptable. If your better at PvP, you should win via skill not gear.

By making white monster helms available in normal they then ensure anyone doing vet is doing it for the right reasons and improve group quality in the group finder for those runs.

That would only work if those helms were not improvable.

Because let's admit it, improving something to purple is negligible these days outside of jewelry.

Loralai_907 · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

I don't run group dungeons for a couple of reasons, but just because they aren't my thing doesn't mean I should insist that other people's preference be taken away. Someday I'll have people I actually feel comfortable running them with, and I'll have a character set up to not be bad/mediocre at them. Until then, I'm living in Cyro.

AlnilamE · July 2018

Nothing, leave things as they are.

Samadhi wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

...
I'm going to keep this simple: How should they fix that? Let's try and discover the general sentiment. ...

Please provide the capacity to Queue for a Random Veteran Dungeon that does not include DLC dungeons while keeping my sub active
do not mind getting them on random normal, but all my characters are vet now and 9 days out of 10 the DLC ones are too stressful for me,
which results in just no longer using the random dungeon tool for Vet, despite finding pugging through random Vet non-DLCs to be fun

would not pay for the dungeon DLCs individually, but am pretty okay with the occasional run -- the random tool just gives me DLC ones far more often than occasionally

The problem is that the Random queue is there to help people queuing for specific dungeons to complete their groups. And it appears that in vet mode, more people are running the DLC dungeons than the non-DLC ones (outside of pledges).

So that would not work.

You can queue for a normal dungeon on your characters even if they are all Vet, so if you are not in the mood for a harder dungeon, I'd queue for normal.