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Am I the only one who wants to be informed about hidden/un-documented functions?

  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    fritzOSU03 wrote: »
    Pay you not to include a file that changes your title to "Master Wizard?" Yeah, right.
    I know for a fact that you're using some of my work for free. Like I said at the beginning, a complete list of my add-ons can be found in my signature. You are free to remove them from your machine. Just be sure to give them a good look first so you know what they're doing for you.


    You all really should take some time to read the Add-On Terms. Here are some of the important parts which you agree to when you use the game.
    2. DISCLAIMERS

    ...YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT THE USE OF ADD-ONS IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND YOU ASSUME ALL RISKS ASSOCIATED ANY ADD-ONS ON YOUR MACHINE. ... YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ENABLING AN ADD-ON CAN AFFECT AND/OR CAUSE YOUR COMPUTER, SOFTWARE, GAME, AND/OR ACCOUNT TO FUNCTION IMPROPERLY.

    WITH RESPECT TO ANY ADD-ON THAT IS DOWNLOADED ON OR OVER THE INTERNET, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE FILES FOR SUCH ADD-ONS MAY CONTAIN SPYWARE, MALWARE, VIRUSES OR OTHER MALICIOUS CODE THAT COULD AFFECT YOUR COMPUTER OR SYSTEM(S). ... USE OF THE INTERNET, INCLUDING THE DOWNLOAD OF FILES FROM THE INTERNET, IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND FILES SHOULD ONLY BE DOWNLOADED FROM SOURCES TRUSTED BY YOU.

    3. ENTIRE AGREEMENT

    Except as set forth in this Section, if there is any conflict between the Terms of Service, a EULA and any Supplemental Terms, You acknowledge and agree that, for the purposes of the Add-on Terms of Use, the terms and conditions shall govern in the following order of precedence: (i) Terms of Service; (ii) the applicable EULA; (iii) the Add-on Terms of Use; and (iv) the applicable Code of Conduct.

    Fritz, you might not want to throw that around. At least not without understanding it. You see, the argument you're making is that if you throw malware into your mod, ZOS can't be held liable. Not that you're free to engage in whatever behavior you want. The EULA is an agreement between the End User and Zenimax Media, full stop. As a modder, you are not a party to this contract. You signed your own version, but that is a different agreement between you and Zenimax. Not with me. Not with anyone who downloads and installs your content.

    Ironically, you've also pinpointed the issue here, even though you skirted right over it without a second thought. Let me pull that out again.
    ...AND FILES SHOULD ONLY BE DOWNLOADED FROM SOURCES TRUSTED BY YOU.

    Adding in a library to give yourself a novelty title is a breach of trust. People trust you to deliver the addon that you defined, and not inject other, unknown, functionality into it for your own amusement. So, don't betray that trust.

    Yes, this does offend me, deeply, as a mod author of BGS games. Yes, I used my name internally in mods, mostly for convenient sorting systems when I was implementing, and because I was fairly confident no one else would use my name when they created new records. But, there's a huge difference between internal architecture, and deliberately injecting functionality that the player does not want into your code without declaring it.

    That's my issue here. I'm offended, as a mod author. They are taking the audience's trust and abusing it for entirely trivial gains, "so they can have some fun."

    You are asking someone to take your code and run it locally. Do not abuse their trust.
    Edited by starkerealm on June 23, 2018 2:32AM
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Dolgubon
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    fritzOSU03 wrote: »
    Pay you not to include a file that changes your title to "Master Wizard?" Yeah, right.
    I know for a fact that you're using some of my work for free. Like I said at the beginning, a complete list of my add-ons can be found in my signature. You are free to remove them from your machine. Just be sure to give them a good look first so you know what they're doing for you.


    You all really should take some time to read the Add-On Terms. Here are some of the important parts which you agree to when you use the game.
    2. DISCLAIMERS

    ...YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT THE USE OF ADD-ONS IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND YOU ASSUME ALL RISKS ASSOCIATED ANY ADD-ONS ON YOUR MACHINE. ... YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ENABLING AN ADD-ON CAN AFFECT AND/OR CAUSE YOUR COMPUTER, SOFTWARE, GAME, AND/OR ACCOUNT TO FUNCTION IMPROPERLY.

    WITH RESPECT TO ANY ADD-ON THAT IS DOWNLOADED ON OR OVER THE INTERNET, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE FILES FOR SUCH ADD-ONS MAY CONTAIN SPYWARE, MALWARE, VIRUSES OR OTHER MALICIOUS CODE THAT COULD AFFECT YOUR COMPUTER OR SYSTEM(S). ... USE OF THE INTERNET, INCLUDING THE DOWNLOAD OF FILES FROM THE INTERNET, IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND FILES SHOULD ONLY BE DOWNLOADED FROM SOURCES TRUSTED BY YOU.

    3. ENTIRE AGREEMENT

    Except as set forth in this Section, if there is any conflict between the Terms of Service, a EULA and any Supplemental Terms, You acknowledge and agree that, for the purposes of the Add-on Terms of Use, the terms and conditions shall govern in the following order of precedence: (i) Terms of Service; (ii) the applicable EULA; (iii) the Add-on Terms of Use; and (iv) the applicable Code of Conduct.

    Ironically, you've also pinpointed the issue here, even though you skirted right over it without a second thought. Let me pull that out again.
    ...AND FILES SHOULD ONLY BE DOWNLOADED FROM SOURCES TRUSTED BY YOU.

    Adding in a library to give yourself a novelty title is a breach of trust. People trust you to deliver the addon that you defined, and not inject other, unknown, functionality into it for your own amusement. So, don't betray that trust.

    That's my issue here. I'm offended, as a mod author. They are taking the audience's trust and abusing it for entirely trivial gains, "so they can have some fun."

    You are asking someone to take your code and run it locally. Do not abuse their trust.

    Asking? No. We are not asking people to take our code and run it. We are simply sharing and allowing people to run it. There are many add-ons out there which both I and others have chosen not to share, for various reasons. It'd be easier if I didn't share add-ons. (I'd actually be richer in game too if not as many people did writs)

    As for it betraying the trust of users: No, I don't think it does. It isn't spyware, it isn't malicious code. The game still runs normally, and no harm comes to the user. The addon still acts as advertised.
    Edited by Dolgubon on June 23, 2018 3:31AM
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  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    fritzOSU03 wrote: »
    First of all, I don't know who you think you are to presume what I do or do not know about the terms.

    If you want people to think you understand the EULA and ToS, then I would recommend you can avoid confusion on the subject by not citing them when their content is irrelevant.
    fritzOSU03 wrote: »
    I find it absolutely comical that you are so offended over a novelty title, something you've described as having "entirely trivial gains," that you believe it is a breach of trust. As I said before, I CAN deliberately inject functionality into MY CODE without declaring it and you are free to open it and read it over before using it so that you know what you're installing on your machine. Nobody is stopping you. As a matter of fact, that is your responsibility. You're also free to not use it at all if you can't bring yourself to trust the source. Personally, I find it offensive, as a developer that you think chasing add-on creators who've made huge contributions to the game with your figurative pitch fork is less detrimental to the community as a whole than a trivial piece of code that does no harm and has no malicious intent while each add-on still does exactly what it's supposed to do. But hey, you keep on trolling and I'm going to go back to enjoying the game. :*

    So, your entire argument is that you should not be trusted. Cool.

    Again, what happened here is you have developers who buried an undocumented system into their addons, specifically to grant them titles they did not earn. That's petty. But, it is also an abuse of trust as a developer.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • starkerealm
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    Dolgubon wrote: »
    Asking?

    No, you are asking at this point. Because otherwise you don't get the, "fun," of having the "Undying" title in game.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • eso_nya
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    Always wondered why noone who got pissed by it, stole the source code, put it in a standalone addon and publicly offered anyone who wanted a title. Thus make it opt-in/opt-out.
  • starkerealm
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    eso_nya wrote: »
    Always wondered why noone who got pissed by it, stole the source code, put it in a standalone addon and publicly offered anyone who wanted a title. Thus make it opt-in/opt-out.

    Short answer is still: because stealing someone's code is a pretty slimy move, even in this context. I suspect if someone did, it would get slapped down hard on ESOUI.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • NinetyNineTails
    eso_nya wrote: »
    Always wondered why noone who got pissed by it, stole the source code, put it in a standalone addon and publicly offered anyone who wanted a title. Thus make it opt-in/opt-out.

    No need to repay one unethical move with another. I think it's better to educate the userbase and post detailed guides on how to remove these update/title libs and other undocumented or malicious code. You don't need any special tools to edit ESO addons, just the knowledge and basic text editor.
  • lordrichter
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    eso_nya wrote: »
    Always wondered why noone who got pissed by it, stole the source code, put it in a standalone addon and publicly offered anyone who wanted a title. Thus make it opt-in/opt-out.

    No need to repay one unethical move with another. I think it's better to educate the userbase and post detailed guides on how to remove these update/title libs and other undocumented or malicious code. You don't need any special tools to edit ESO addons, just the knowledge and basic text editor.

    All add-ons are potential malware. I have a personally written anti-malware program that deals with this stuff. For a while, I was changing the Titles for some of the players that I would routinely see. Now, I just don't see the special titles.

    The LibCustomTitles library is not really important. It is the symptom of something that is more of a problem. I wrote my anti-malware stuff after some add-on author decided they would get their Yuk-Yuks by doing April Fools stuff. That was not cool. Dealing with LibCustomTitles and the update library is just something for my program to do for the rest of the year.
    PC North America since March 2014
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  • Colecovision
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    I apologize. I have read the entire thread, but I still don't get it. It looks to me like there was something shoved in some ad-dons without us knowing, but the only function is to give add on makers cool titles. Nothing is being farmed or sent back. Is that correct?
  • Ydrisselle
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    I apologize. I have read the entire thread, but I still don't get it. It looks to me like there was something shoved in some ad-dons without us knowing, but the only function is to give add on makers cool titles. Nothing is being farmed or sent back. Is that correct?

    Yep.
  • lordrichter
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    I apologize. I have read the entire thread, but I still don't get it. It looks to me like there was something shoved in some ad-dons without us knowing, but the only function is to give add on makers cool titles. Nothing is being farmed or sent back. Is that correct?

    Nothing is being farmed or sent back.

    The add-ons being discussed include a custom title library, which modifies the title of selected players if they are encountered in the game, an addon that tells people to upgrade their addons after an update, and then there is one that has had a history of doing April Fool's jokes.

    Except for the latter, which could interfere with playing the game, this thread seems to be more a matter of the addons doing something that they were not advertised as doing.

    The update reminder has many people thinking it comes from ZOS, not some addon writer.

    Edited by lordrichter on June 23, 2018 8:23PM
    PC North America since March 2014
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say NO to Crown Crates!
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  • DanteYoda
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    Thanks op i just wanted to have a few addons that did as required not act like malware.. I'm not surprised to be honest..
  • Ydrisselle
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    DanteYoda wrote: »
    Thanks op i just wanted to have a few addons that did as required not act like malware.. I'm not surprised to be honest..

    None of the addons can act as malware.
  • lordrichter
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    Ydrisselle wrote: »
    DanteYoda wrote: »
    Thanks op i just wanted to have a few addons that did as required not act like malware.. I'm not surprised to be honest..

    None of the addons can act as malware.

    Sure they can.
    PC North America since March 2014
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say NO to Crown Crates!
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  • theskymoves
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    DanteYoda wrote: »
    Thanks op i just wanted to have a few addons that did as required not act like malware.. I'm not surprised to be honest..

    Seconding the gratitude... I've dabbled in making mods for single-player games for a while, and I shudder to think what the backlash would be if I stealthed an undisclosed function into one of my releases.
  • ZOS_JesC
    ZOS_JesC
    admin
    Greetings, we've removed a few more baiting comments. If the thread continues to derail into arguments and cannot remain on topic, we will close it. Thank you for your understanding.
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  • Kyoma
    Kyoma
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    Ydrisselle wrote: »
    DanteYoda wrote: »
    Thanks op i just wanted to have a few addons that did as required not act like malware.. I'm not surprised to be honest..

    None of the addons can act as malware.

    Sure they can.
    Instead of this whole going back and forth why not try explaining HOW exactly addons can act as malware. I can be understanding to the reasoning that adding this trivial feature can be a breach of trust to some people but any arguments involving these addons being malware or containing malware are just nonsense.

    Will I be able to forget all the wounds that pierce my flesh?
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  • NinetyNineTails
    Kyoma wrote: »
    Instead of this whole going back and forth why not try explaining HOW exactly addons can act as malware. I can be understanding to the reasoning that adding this trivial feature can be a breach of trust to some people but any arguments involving these addons being malware or containing malware are just nonsense.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142073/do-not-use-updated-atlas-addon/p1

    Can you guarantee that something like this won't happen again?
  • Kyoma
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    Kyoma wrote: »
    Instead of this whole going back and forth why not try explaining HOW exactly addons can act as malware. I can be understanding to the reasoning that adding this trivial feature can be a breach of trust to some people but any arguments involving these addons being malware or containing malware are just nonsense.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142073/do-not-use-updated-atlas-addon/p1

    Can you guarantee that something like this won't happen again?
    Yes, addons cannot send gold or items by mail without user confirmation.

    Edit: But I guess you are referring to something like that in general. Well no I cannot guarentee it.

    As far as I know I could write code that would randomly destroy a players gear. Now.....imagine I write code that would under certain circumstances display a string that is not actually the string that should be displayed, lets say....someone's title in the target frame. Which of these two things is malware?

    I'll say it again, I can understand the argument of these custom titles as a breach of trust (as a principle) but at the end of the day they CANNOT be malware simply because they don't touch any of your virtual pixels or cause any kind of harm. People that keep treating these addons as such should just disappear from the addon community with their crazy tin foil hat conspiricy theories.....

    Edited by Kyoma on July 3, 2018 2:49AM
    Will I be able to forget all the wounds that pierce my flesh?
    You and your childish justice. I'll rip it to pieces.
    Come on, it's showtime. A rain of blood like a volcano
    And now I'll blow all of you and you and you...
    All to tiny pieces. All to tiny pieces.
  • manavortex
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    Via the AddOn API, it's possible to
    • destroy anything you own - everything, or just select items
    • randomly enchant your gear with any glyphs you carry
    • cancel your buffs - or use inferior buff food
    • Equip *** poison
    • decline resurrections in raids
    • make sure you can't respawn in battlegrounds by hiding the controls
    • make your client crash - even selectively, for example, in a hard mode boss fight when the boss reaches less than 5% health
    • redistribute your champion points
    • wreak all sorts of havoc on your user interface - including outright scam

    ... and here you are complaining about custom titles.

    Please consider that you are constantly insulting and agitating the people who develop the very AddOns that you rely upon.
    Please consider that these people are spending a tremendous amount of their own free time to make those AddOns available to you and everyone else in the community.
    Please consider that you are attacking people who could literally destroy everything you own over a few custom titles that are not even undocumented, but clearly included in the AddOn's manifest.txt which you only need to read.

    I am not threatening anyone. I am doing neither of those things, and neither is anyone of the others. But please do consider if you are doing the smart thing here by actively antagonising AddOn developers who provide a service to you that you yourself are unwilling or unable to implement.
    Stop Zanil Theran's sinister plot to exterminate bank space! Give ESO+ subscribers a virtual Furniture Bag!
  • zsban
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    *deleted*
    Edited by zsban on July 3, 2018 5:03PM
  • manavortex
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    zsban wrote: »
    You know if even the idea of causing harm to other players comes to an addon developer's mind that's quite scary and for me completely breaks the trust.

    well, the question was, try explaining HOW exactly addons can act as malware. I did that.
    zsban wrote: »
    I'm paranoid enough to not download/update any addon from now on from any developer who has anything to do with libCustomTitles.
    Better be on the safe side.
    Sorry if I make you even more paranoid, but it's not LibCustomTitles - it's everything.

    edited for clarity
    Edited by manavortex on July 3, 2018 9:05AM
    Stop Zanil Theran's sinister plot to exterminate bank space! Give ESO+ subscribers a virtual Furniture Bag!
  • Sparr0w
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    Well addon authors make addons for themselves, then choose to share them with the public. Really we've got no say in this, they're not losing anything by us not downloading or using the addons.

    The post by the guy before that said 'pay him to remove it' is technically justified, if it's a paid addon then he's making it for the public, so the public have a say & he'd be losing out by not removing this feature. Otherwise he's making it for himself, so giving himself a custom title is his entitlement.

    People seriously complain at everything.
    @Sparr0w so I get the notification
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  • Cuthceol
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    The fact that these libs/functions aren't mentioned anywhere in the addon or addon site is all I need to know, I don't need any more unwanted/undocumented software on my PC thanks.
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    Community Ambassador
    code65536 wrote: »
    If custom titles is such a great feature, then why not let it stand on its own merits? Release it as a standalone addon and let people who want it go and actively choose to download it.

    The only reason to include it as a library to be bundled with other addons is because they know that most people would never download such an addon, and they know that most people would not go through the trouble to opt-out.

    Custom titles would be completely fine if it was opt-in. Instead, they choose to make it opt-out. It shouldn't be like that.
    Pretty much.

    The worst part about it is the confusion it causes for new players who download add-ons like the very popular ones these are bundled with and don't understand what's happening.

    It's just part of what the add-ons have become, if you want to use them you have to accept everything the author places in them, modify them every update or learn to create your own.

    I've for a long time wondered how much better ESO would have been had add-ons not been allowed, as it would have forced ZOS to work on UI/player information updates for things which have become standardly handled by add-ons.
    It would also stop all the issues and arguments they cause.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
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  • Kyoma
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    Ok, now that the discussion is back to the matter of principle and not just randomly screaming malware I feel a bit more inclined to post again.
    zsban wrote: »
    I just don’t understand why make so much fuss
    From the perspective of others the same could apply to the fuss around custom titles not being explicitly mentioned.

    Edit: And technically it was the nay-sayers that started it all
    Edited by Kyoma on July 3, 2018 1:16PM
    Will I be able to forget all the wounds that pierce my flesh?
    You and your childish justice. I'll rip it to pieces.
    Come on, it's showtime. A rain of blood like a volcano
    And now I'll blow all of you and you and you...
    All to tiny pieces. All to tiny pieces.
  • ZOS_MikaS
    ZOS_MikaS
    admin
    Because this thread has continued to derail into personal attacks, we have closed it down. Thank you for your understanding.
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This discussion has been closed.