Psst! Healers and Tanks Come Here. - redux

max_only · June 2018

Hey y’all it’s the remix.

I’ve been away but now I’m raising a baby Warden tank so we’re back at it again.
Btw I need a graphic for “Friendship Ended With Shards Now Betty Netch Is My Best Friend”

Oh and yeah, all you dps who clicked on this thread go away!

Those of you who are dual specced can participate too, I won't contribute to bi-role erasure.

This game, and most games in general, reward "phat deeps" in all aspects and damage dealing is important no doubt, but there are those of us who like support roles.

Let's brainstorm improvements or additions to content that rewards support players.

Some of my ideas:
1. Make the "block" and "heal" dungeon achievements count for even more Undaunted rep.

2. Award ranked titles for healing in pvp. Like "Field Medic", "Surgeon", "Surgeon General"

3. Add a 1 skill point passive to the Restoration staff skill line that unlocks a conversation tree to "heal" npcs. Finding all the npcs in all the zones that need your healing help gives a similar achievement to donating to all the beggars. Maybe a title/ costume/ dye color.

What are your ideas?

Here are some ideas from the last thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/362558/psst-healers-and-tanks-come-here

4. class quests. Specific quests for each class that allow you to choose either the straight damage solution or the support solution (like how sometimes you can persuade an npc or just choose to outright kill them).

I love the Mages guild, I would like a group of npc healers to recognize us as well.
Anyone can be a part of the Fighters Guild, but not everyone is a tank, some kind of "defensive" game mode would be great. Like playing defense in an fps. Right now we have a defense tick for successfully repelling an attack on a keep, but maybe something more individual would be nice.

5. "Inverse Target Skeleton"

WeyounTM wrote: »

Damn I like this thread idea already. Haven't read through all of it so here is my proposal:

Let's have an "Inverse Target Skeleton" for healers like my Heals-your-Paws. You know, a skeleteon that hurts itself and you heal it .
Or as an alternative let us healers join a group with the target skeleton and try to heal it while your DPS is hurting it badly And you can use your DPS-guy to put a nice Ele drain on him while you are at it

6. Can Silver Leash be changed to the store brand Chains please? Instead of the useless gap closer no one needs? Silver Leash is now perfect. You’re welcome Tamriel.

7.magical chain that will yank DPS out of the red

vamp_emily wrote: »

I would like to have a magical chain that will yank DPS out of the red circle and bring them to me. Then I can spank him with my healing staff for being bad.

8.quests where you have to heal.

Tasear wrote: »

Almost the afternoon right, so let me sit down here again
What about quests where you have to heal. I don't quest a lot, but are there such quests for healers or tanks? Would be fun if you had to bring materials for lore related medicines or have to protect mutliple npcs on some psuedo battlefield. Think fungal grotto where allied npcs follow you allow to the end ...if they live.

9. - Clearing a HM trial with no deaths, while preventing at least X amount of total damage for the group during the trial.
Unlocks: A glowing aura skin with Aedric runes across your character's body.
- Revive X amount of players, who then got their "revenge kill" on their attacker shortly after.
Unlocks: A new golden skin that shows your character slowly radiating bright flames from their body.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

I wish there was more incentive for support roles in ESO. It seems a great deal of achievements are designed for DPS roles. Perhaps adding in some special rewards/achievements for Trial/Dungeon/Cyrodiil support milestones?
Here's some quick examples:
- Clearing a HM trial with no deaths, while preventing at least X amount of total damage for the group during the trial.
Unlocks: A glowing aura skin with Aedric runes across your character's body.
- Revive X amount of players, who then got their "revenge kill" on their attacker shortly after.
Unlocks: A new golden skin that shows your character slowly radiating bright flames from their body.

A set of achievements and rewards like this are something that makes being a support build special and it's a way to show off how well you do your job! Maybe not these exact examples listed above, but something similar would be nice instead of the constant "kill X things" and "deal X damage in this place" achievements. Perhaps a whole set of "support role" AP ranks (and skill points) based on a new list of achievements for support actions while in Cyrodiil?

10.queued up as a healer that you should slightly glow so you are easily identified as the healer

Giraffon wrote: »

I think if you are queued up as a tank, than taunt should work on everything with no exceptions. If not queued as tank then the mechanics should stay as they are now.

I think that if you are queued up as a healer that you should slightly glow so you are easily identified as the healer in the group. Even if you are dead. As a tank, I hate running around looking for the dead healer while getting agro from the boss because I'm the only one still standing.

Which of the 10 do you want most?

ArchMikem · June 2018

I like the inverse target dummy. A target that steadily damages itself. Not sure how the parse would end if you're just constantly healing it.

Tasear · June 2018

In particular, I am a fan of number 4, but all together I think this thread is interesting and will be lurking in to see what different people say.

P.S Don't forget to join in Healer's discord to continue to share ideas and talk with fellow Healer's.

https://discord.gg/TfjSbu9

FakeFox · June 2018

1. Why? Support roles have no problems with achivements and undaunted points. All achivements that require damage count for the group except one.

2. I don't think healers are disadvantaged in PvP, but I would like a few more titles, why not.

3. I allready hate the existing three achivements for that and I don't see a reason for a "healer exclusive" one.

4. I think class quests would kind of go against ESOs philosophy that every should be able to experience every quest.

5. As a healer and theory crafter my self I have never seen the use for such a thing. There isn't really anything relevant you could test there in my opinion. I'm not strictly against it, but I think there are more important things.

6. I fully agree.

7. Complete troll skill, with very little use in actual combat. I would absolutely not want that. To explain this point a bit further. I think other (allied) players should not be able to influence my position as this is completely my own choice and being able to make this choice based on situational awareness I a core skill in playing ESO. People make positioning decisions that others might not understand, but that does not mean they are wrong. I might not always like what my DDs do when I heal, but that does not mean that I should be able to just reposition them how I like.
Apart from that I don't see that much practical use for even doing so.

9. Sounds pretty boring to me. Just healing someone up is not what is challenging about playing healer, it is simply pressing one button. So I don't think it would be fun. But generally I think being able to heal NPCs during certain activities would be cool, just not entire quests designed around it.

9. All big achievements that reward skins and so on are currently group wide and/or do not require a certain role. I think this should not be changed.

10. This could be interesting as a optional thing every player can activate for their own screen. But as a forced feature I would not want it. Apart from that there are more then enough other ways to identify groupmembers in my opinion.

Chaos2088 · June 2018

Your post was too long.....I didn't read it -fly's away-

raj72616a · June 2018

healer chain to pull dps out of stupid sounds awesome!

max_only · June 2018

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Your post was too long.....I didn't read it -fly's away-

Not even just the bold parts? ;_; :'(

Chaos2088 · June 2018

max_only wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Your post was too long.....I didn't read it -fly's away-

Not even just the bold parts? ;_; :'(

I can't read in bold....

......ok......ok enough enough......the points you raised are interesting

Mureel · June 2018

The only issue I really have is how healers are being made obsolete in DLC dungeon content.

To be totally truthful, since I've been tanking I've come across sooo many truly bad healers that I am just beginning to see why - it stands to reason these dps have seen the same bad healers I have.

Healer should not mean free carry, and unfortunately, it often means just that.

On the other side of the coin though, I've also noted far more much worse than they think they are dps, who think they can 'easier with no healer' either because someone else said it or because they themselves got a carry, really.

There have been a few no healer groups I've tanked that I've been pleasantly surprised, but it is by far and wide not common at all, and these were in my raid guilds. The norm is they die all the damn time standing in stupid or we have 2 dps worth of damage in a 3 dps group. What is the point actually then? Or one guy 'out of stam' all the time! Thought you didn't need a healer? But you did.

I just had a miserable time tanking VSCP with 1 dps literally carrying the group.

So healers need to step up (I've watched some healers do nth but BOL themselves. What the hell was that!!? What use is that at all?), and dps need to chill because all y'all aren't all ya think you are.

LadyNalcarya · June 2018

1. Make the "block" and "heal" dungeon achievements count for even more Undaunted rep.

1) I dont know why would you need that. You're getting those "kill X mobs in certain dungeon" achivements just fine as a tank or healer. Also those achievements still have pre-1.6 values so theyre easy to get even as a dd.

2. Award ranked titles for healing in pvp. Like "Field Medic", "Surgeon", "Surgeon General"

2) Nice idea! Also, we need better battleground scoring for healers to make it worth it.

3. Add a 1 skill point passive to the Restoration staff skill line that unlocks a conversation tree to "heal" npcs. Finding all the npcs in all the zones that need your healing help gives a similar achievement to donating to all the beggars. Maybe a title/ costume/ dye color.

3)Sounds kinda meh imo but maybe roleplayers would like it.

4. class quests. Specific quests for each class that allow you to choose either the straight damage solution or the support solution (like how sometimes you can persuade an npc or just choose to outright kill them).

4) this one really depends on implementation. Just spamming heals would be boring I think, but choosing non-violent routes in some quests could be fun.
For me, healing is more about team interaction than spamming that springs button. It's not something that could be achieved with npcs.

5. "Inverse Target Skeleton"

5)Doesnt make much sense. HPS means nothing, you can achieve high HPS with any gear that makes sense for your role. Also, focusing on heal numbers would be terribly misleading, healer in ESO is a support role, which means that you have to use buffs/debuffs and supply resources. Now that spc is not the only meta, overhealing is not needed.

7.magical chain that will yank DPS out of the red

7)Will be used for trolling to pull people from guild traders, wayshrines, from keep walls etc. So, no thanks.

8.quests where you have to heal.

8) Like I said, I'm personally not interested in healing npcs. I like team dynamic, and even as a healer I can kill stuff more efficiently than average mob.

9. - Clearing a HM trial with no deaths, while preventing at least X amount of total damage for the group during the trial.
Unlocks: A glowing aura skin with Aedric runes across your character's body.
- Revive X amount of players, who then got their "revenge kill" on their attacker shortly after.
Unlocks: A new golden skin that shows your character slowly radiating bright flames from their body.

9) Then they will have to implement similar rewards for dds and tanks.
Also I dont think that certain amount of healing required is a good idea since it could encourage people to be careless and take more damage. Also, best kills take less time = less healing done in total.
More cosmetics are always nice, though.

10.queued up as a healer that you should slightly glow so you are easily identified as the healer

10) I think there's way too much fireworks and glow in this game and adding more would be more confusing than anything, but adding colors to nameplates and/or group indicators (those little arrows above everyone's heads) would be nice.

Mureel · June 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

1. Make the "block" and "heal" dungeon achievements count for even more Undaunted rep.

1) I dont know why would you need that. You're getting those "kill X mobs in certain dungeon" achivements just fine as a tank or healer. Also those achievements still have pre-1.6 values so theyre easy to get even as a dd.

2. Award ranked titles for healing in pvp. Like "Field Medic", "Surgeon", "Surgeon General"

2) Nice idea! Also, we need better battleground scoring for healers to make it worth it.

3. Add a 1 skill point passive to the Restoration staff skill line that unlocks a conversation tree to "heal" npcs. Finding all the npcs in all the zones that need your healing help gives a similar achievement to donating to all the beggars. Maybe a title/ costume/ dye color.

3)Sounds kinda meh imo but maybe roleplayers would like it.

4. class quests. Specific quests for each class that allow you to choose either the straight damage solution or the support solution (like how sometimes you can persuade an npc or just choose to outright kill them).

4) this one really depends on implementation. Just spamming heals would be boring I think, but choosing non-violent routes in some quests could be fun.
For me, healing is more about team interaction that spamming that springs button. It's not something that could be achieved with npcs.

5. "Inverse Target Skeleton"

5)Doesnt make much sense. HPS means nothing, you can achieve high HPS with any gear that makes sense for your role. Also, focusing on heal numbers would be terribly misleading, healer in ESO is a support role, which means that you have to use buffs/debuffs and supply resources. Now that spc is not the only meta, overhealing is not needed.

7.magical chain that will yank DPS out of the red

7)Will be used for trolling to pull people from guild traders, wayshrines, from keep walls etc. So, no thanks.

8.quests where you have to heal.

8) Like I said, I'm personally not interested in healing npcs. I like team dynamic, and even as a healer I can kill stuff more efficiently than average mob.

9. - Clearing a HM trial with no deaths, while preventing at least X amount of total damage for the group during the trial.
Unlocks: A glowing aura skin with Aedric runes across your character's body.
- Revive X amount of players, who then got their "revenge kill" on their attacker shortly after.
Unlocks: A new golden skin that shows your character slowly radiating bright flames from their body.

9) Then they will have to implement similar rewards for dds and tanks.
Also I dont think that certain amount of healing required is a good idea since it could encourage people to be careless and take more damage. Also, best kills take less time = less healing done in total.
More cosmetics are always nice, though.

10.queued up as a healer that you should slightly glow so you are easily identified as the healer

10) I think there's way too much fireworks and glow in this game and adding more would be more confusing than anything, but adding colors to nameplates and/or group indicators (those little arrows above everyone's heads) would be nice.

Agree with all, but mainly the HPS thing.

Nothing worse than someone bragging about their hps when wh/ele drain/combat prayer is nil or close to it and no orbs are flying about.

Now do your actual job, please. Not just 1/4 of it.

LadyNalcarya · June 2018

Mureel wrote: »

The only issue I really have is how healers are being made obsolete in DLC dungeon content.

To be totally truthful, since I've been tanking I've come across sooo many truly bad healers that I am just beginning to see why - it stands to reason these dps have seen the same bad healers I have.

Healer should not mean free carry, and unfortunately, it often means just that.

On the other side of the coin though, I've also noted far more much worse than they think they are dps, who think they can 'easier with no healer' either because someone else said it or because they themselves got a carry, really.

There have been a few no healer groups I've tanked that I've been pleasantly surprised, but it is by far and wide not common at all, and these were in my raid guilds. The norm is they die all the damn time standing in stupid or we have 2 dps worth of damage in a 3 dps group. What is the point actually then? Or one guy 'out of stam' all the time! Thought you didn't need a healer? But you did.

I just had a miserable time tanking VSCP with 1 dps literally carrying the group.

So healers need to step up (I've watched some healers do nth but BOL themselves. What the hell was that!!? What use is that at all?), and dps need to chill because all y'all aren't all ya think you are.

This is a really good point.
I tanked some vet dlc dungeons with 3 dds, and if the dds are decent, its pretty easy and fast. I think there's a problem with ZOS design philosophy, they add too much oneshots and the way the dungeons are designed, its easier to burst everything and skip as many oneshot mechanics as possible.
Overabundance of oneshots is a cheap way to boost difficulty, and they make healer's role obsolete (you cant heal oneshot after all).

What_In_Tarnation · June 2018

max_only wrote: »

2. Award ranked titles for healing in pvp. Like "Field Medic", "Surgeon", "Surgeon General"

You know you are basically asking for this.

Mureel · June 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

The only issue I really have is how healers are being made obsolete in DLC dungeon content.

To be totally truthful, since I've been tanking I've come across sooo many truly bad healers that I am just beginning to see why - it stands to reason these dps have seen the same bad healers I have.

Healer should not mean free carry, and unfortunately, it often means just that.

On the other side of the coin though, I've also noted far more much worse than they think they are dps, who think they can 'easier with no healer' either because someone else said it or because they themselves got a carry, really.

There have been a few no healer groups I've tanked that I've been pleasantly surprised, but it is by far and wide not common at all, and these were in my raid guilds. The norm is they die all the damn time standing in stupid or we have 2 dps worth of damage in a 3 dps group. What is the point actually then? Or one guy 'out of stam' all the time! Thought you didn't need a healer? But you did.

I just had a miserable time tanking VSCP with 1 dps literally carrying the group.

So healers need to step up (I've watched some healers do nth but BOL themselves. What the hell was that!!? What use is that at all?), and dps need to chill because all y'all aren't all ya think you are.

This is a really good point.
I tanked some vet dlc dungeons with 3 dds, and if the dds are decent, its pretty easy and fast. I think there's a problem with ZOS design philosophy, they add too much oneshots and the way the dungeons are designed, its easier to burst everything and skip as many oneshot mechanics as possible.
Overabundance of oneshots is a cheap way to boost difficulty, and they make healer's role obsolete (you cant heal oneshot after all).

Exactly. It's either so low dots/trash damage, or 1 shot. Dungeons need more balanced damage or DPS needs nerf to self heals/shields outside of PVP or even DPS needs a small nerf.

I'm not a programmer so I truly don't know which would be best, but people are packing in their healers, because there just aren't enough raid spots for all of us who are used to end game vet content.

Mureel · June 2018

One last thing is this: it's unpleasant having 3/4 hard dlc ach done as main/healer and get burnt on HM if you don't have people to come with you for it.

That's not nice.

If we're lucky, we get raid spots, and our friends will take us to HM as healers, but not enough spots for end game for all good healers.

max_only · June 2018

I’ve only done vet dungeons up to Morrowind. I heard tanks are also feeling unneeded...

My dedicated healer is my main so he has the most achievements but I used to love playing my saptank.

I agree that one shot mechanics are a cheap/lazy way to up the difficulty. But then again Zos had to turn down Planar Inhibitor even on norm so maybe that’s how the majority of players like it. I just wish I could bring a tank that can Take a one shot while buffed and blocking. I used to do that in Norms only

max_only · July 2018

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

2. Award ranked titles for healing in pvp. Like "Field Medic", "Surgeon", "Surgeon General"

You know you are basically asking for this.

I thought of that... I used to love tf2. Most likely I’d pvp just until I get the title.

max_only · July 2018

Oh I just thought of this! Emotes!

A healing emote that looks like you’re getting golden healing rays from the gods

A tanking emote that makes you pose bravely with your shield. Or have the blessing of Stendarr descend and strengthen you with a giant rune (circle of transmutation let’s be honest). Gold for healers. Steel for tanks. (Red for dps I guess).

Cryptical · July 2018

1 meh
2 meg
3 ok. But it will be in the same sort of flavor as finding all the box pairs that need a fire lit, or an argument solved, or finding maiq.
4 they messed up thieving by including completion timers, thus completely undermining the entire “it just disappeared without a trace” element of thievery. So I am hesitant to see them try and do a healing-primary type of thing like that.

5 I am sure that zeni can construct a timeline of how much damage a typical pack of trash mobs will deliver, and could set up a target dummy that suffers that pattern of damage. However, to do that takes time, because they would have to run the trash mob packs and take a timeline of each, in each dungeon, at normal and vet difficulty. Think of each trash mob in banished cells. 1 and 2. Norm and vet. That’s mapping the damage timeline for that first trash by the door 4 times. And the next trash at the bottom of the stairs 4 times. And the group in the hall. And do this for fungal. Dark shade. Wayrest sewer. Arx. Crucible. Selene. Vaults. Dire frost. All trash mob and boss mob encounters get their damage profiles plotted on a timeline all the way through the dlc dungeons and then the full team trial, normal and vet. And then they will have the hard data they need to set up an easy healing dummy, a moderate healing dummy, a hard healing dummy, a normal trial healing dummy and vet trial healing dummy.

And that takes time. Both in gathering that data and then making categorical decisions about which damage profiles should be included with which healing dummy category, and ideas about how to signal the end of healing because a dps dummy is a easy idea, and so on.

6 I’ve wanted this for when we get a garbage fake tank in a random semi-serious dungeon.

7 doesn’t warden have weird stuff like this?

8 needing to keep Jorvuld alive would be a bit more interesting than just hitting Cocteau with an interruption.

9 nice thought, but not really workable

10 maybe a t above the head line how crown is above leader head.

max_only · July 2018

I just thought of something else. A tanking dummy. One that telegraphs several mechanic that you can practice either dodging, blocking or interrupting. If this already exists let me know.