Question: Why is Rune Prison a 5 second long stun?

Vahrokh · June 2018

Gprime31 wrote: »

nemvar wrote: »

Just revert crystal frag and rune cage. Nobody with a brain asked for this.

Agreed but take away the insta proc, or give every other skill one.

That's the default definition of how others see sorcs: "Take away from them".
Has made sorcs a bland, boring and pathetic class to play over the years.

Dracane · June 2018

Before this patch I would have said, because it's the only stun in the game that does nothing else than stunning, making it average.

But rune cage is indeed quite ridiculous right now, the change was not needed. I think the damage should be reduced or changed to be something else.

Beardimus · June 2018

Lol to the 'one of the most powerful classes' comment. Where have you been the last six months when Sorcs burst has been like a wet lettuce!!

As for 5 second or 2second its irrelevant. If you aren't breaking free cos ur out of resources ur dead either way.

Sorry, this falls under L2P and L2CounterSorcs

Lord-Otto · June 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Well they saw DK had a cool ability, then buffed it like hell and gave it to sorcs, not surprised.

You mean Malefic Wreath?

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Well they saw DK had a cool ability, then buffed it like hell and gave it to sorcs, not surprised.

Okay, let's end this.

Rune Cage IS NOT Fossilize. Fossilize also ROOTS, a significant advantage.

The nerf to Fossilize range was a bit unnecessary, IMO. But when it lands, it works perfectly in tandem with all the stamina pressure DKs have.

Rune cage is literally petrify reskinned and buffed to hell. We saw that from the death recaps.

The root from fossilize is cool, but lets be real everyone would trade that for 28m range and extra damage, talons exists.

If that were true, why is no one picking the off-balance morph?
Granted, Petrify's old range was okay, but ignoring the root for argument's sake is very biased.

Ankael07 · June 2018

Old Rune Cage was way 1vX rewarding than the new one. It would still go through block but disorient for 30 seconds and only break on direct damage.

You could kill people with Alchemy poisons, Soul Assault, Elemental blockade, Destro Ulti, Curse and Mage's Wrath to finish (doesnt matter if it breaks the stun). There are so many other strong DOTs in this game.

Only downsides were your team had to be careful not to break the stun so you can kill with DOTs and it was dodgable but that meant as a counterplay. (you could still land that Meteor combo anyway)

Heka Cain · June 2018

...and how long is a piece of string?

Aesthier · June 2018

Marto wrote: »

Question: Why is Rune Prison a 5 second long stun?

I completely agree!

It should be 10s!

Emma_Overload · June 2018

What difference does it make if it's 5 seconds or 3 seconds? If you don't break out of ANY hard CC in this game in ONE SECOND, you are going to die!

Chilly-McFreeze · June 2018

Gprime31 wrote: »

nemvar wrote: »

Just revert crystal frag and rune cage. Nobody with a brain asked for this.

Agreed but take away the insta proc, or give every other skill one.

Uhm, no? That's the only reason why the skill gets picked, if it's picked at all. Who wants a blockable, dodgeable, cloackable, reflectable, slow and obvious damagestun that has a 1 second cast time? Do you even magsorc?

Ankael07 wrote: »

Old Rune Cage was way 1vX rewarding than the new one. It would still go through block but disorient for 30 seconds and only break on direct damage.

You could kill people with Alchemy poisons, Soul Assault, Elemental blockade, Destro Ulti, Curse and Mage's Wrath to finish (doesnt matter if it breaks the stun). There are so many other strong DOTs in this game.

Only downsides were your team had to be careful not to break the stun so you can kill with DOTs and it was dodgable but that meant as a counterplay.

Yep, loved that cheap disorient on my dot stam sorc. Now I can't really afford to cast it on cooldown with the other mag skills still needed.

Feanor · June 2018

As for the cost: Rune Cage comes out at around 3,200 magicka after passives. Destro Reach is around 2,100 if you use a master staff (like practically everyone who uses Reach or Clench). If not for the wonky animation and the general problems with CC breaking Reach would be the clear winner every time.

Chilly-McFreeze · June 2018

Feanor wrote: »

As for the cost: Rune Cage comes out at around 3,200 magicka after passives. Destro Reach is around 2,100 if you use a master staff (like practically everyone who uses Reach or Clench). If not for the wonky animation and the general problems with CC breaking Reach would be the clear winner every time.

Hmm... does that take into acknowledgment that you're forced to give up a second 5 piece just to buff one skill to be useful?

BohnT · June 2018

Feanor wrote: »

As for the cost: Rune Cage comes out at around 3,200 magicka after passives. Destro Reach is around 2,100 if you use a master staff (like practically everyone who uses Reach or Clench). If not for the wonky animation and the general problems with CC breaking Reach would be the clear winner every time.

No, not at all, reach is the clear winner, higher tooltip without master destro, undodgeable, uncloakable, unblockable, delayed, cheaper.

Fighting a DK while using reach and he has to be bad to be killed by you, you also have to be bad to lose however.
Fighting a DK while using Rune and you can end most encounters in the first 3.5 seconds and are always in the position to control the fight. It's clear that rune is one of the most overperfoming things at this time which made the game was to counterplay unfriendly

Johngo0036 · June 2018

Syncronaut wrote: »

I havent seen many people use it offensive at all. They mostly use Defensive rune.

Super anoying then you do a stealth attack as nightblade.

Sometimes break free just wont work and it can backfire pretty badly.

You havent seen it used offensively?

Come to Vivec on EU and get rekt.
Just another of those skills where break free and CC immunity just dont work or doesnt count.

DDuke · June 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Well they saw DK had a cool ability, then buffed it like hell and gave it to sorcs, not surprised.

You mean Malefic Wreath?

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Well they saw DK had a cool ability, then buffed it like hell and gave it to sorcs, not surprised.

Okay, let's end this.

Rune Cage IS NOT Fossilize. Fossilize also ROOTS, a significant advantage.

The nerf to Fossilize range was a bit unnecessary, IMO. But when it lands, it works perfectly in tandem with all the stamina pressure DKs have.

Rune cage is literally petrify reskinned and buffed to hell. We saw that from the death recaps.

The root from fossilize is cool, but lets be real everyone would trade that for 28m range and extra damage, talons exists.

If that were true, why is no one picking the off-balance morph?
Granted, Petrify's old range was okay, but ignoring the root for argument's sake is very biased.

You are aware that the off-balance morph of Petrify doesn't exist anymore, right?

Shattering Rocks now makes the target's next attack heal the DK instead of 50% chance of Off-Balance on nearby enemies.

Also, back when the Off-Balance morph existed it never actually affected the target itself (only nearby enemies), which is a large reason why heavy attack burst mDK never really became a thing.

NyPetiwowp · June 2018

Have you guys heard of BREAK FREE, I'll help, right and left click, or bound it to a button, most of CCs are breakable immediatly, and there are some, for some unknown reason, which are not, like this Rune Prison or the Psijic's time stop, they are breakable after 1s or so, which is quite annoying tbo, that is what it is.

Inarre · June 2018

Because a one second stun would have to be called "rune house arrest".

ak_pvp · June 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Well they saw DK had a cool ability, then buffed it like hell and gave it to sorcs, not surprised.

You mean Malefic Wreath?

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Well they saw DK had a cool ability, then buffed it like hell and gave it to sorcs, not surprised.

Okay, let's end this.

Rune Cage IS NOT Fossilize. Fossilize also ROOTS, a significant advantage.

The nerf to Fossilize range was a bit unnecessary, IMO. But when it lands, it works perfectly in tandem with all the stamina pressure DKs have.

Rune cage is literally petrify reskinned and buffed to hell. We saw that from the death recaps.

The root from fossilize is cool, but lets be real everyone would trade that for 28m range and extra damage, talons exists.

If that were true, why is no one picking the off-balance morph?
Granted, Petrify's old range was okay, but ignoring the root for argument's sake is very biased.

Because the offbalance morph is gone, now a bad heal? People picked it situationally, but it was even more redundant than fossilize, which saved a GCD in meteor/leap situations by keeping the target rooted. Whip sets offbalance on any cc'd enemy, which is generally the instinctive attack after a fossilize, shatter was a 50% chance on break.

Stibbons · June 2018

It best stun in this game. 5 seconds, unblockable, huge range and damage on top of that. Just silly they removed Templar only decent stun but sorcerers can have it all mentality.

BlackLabel · June 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

I think its a PVE change - making it useful to CC one mob while you focus on another.
Lets face it, in PVP, the duration doesn't really matter since 90% of the time it's broken-free from immediately anyway.. When it isn't, it usually only takes 2-3 seconds for them to recov enough stam to break free.. So you don't really get the full duration anyway.
Hence I think the duration increase is aimed at mobs.

it only takes 2 seconds for a sorc to burst you from 100 -0

Marto · June 2018

NyPetiwowp wrote: »

Have you guys heard of BREAK FREE, I'll help, right and left click, or bound it to a button, most of CCs are breakable immediatly, and there are some, for some unknown reason, which are not, like this Rune Prison or the Psijic's time stop, they are breakable after 1s or so, which is quite annoying tbo, that is what it is.

That's like saying "It's ok for X ability to deal 15000 damage, you can just heal it"

You can't use Break free as an argument. Break free is not 100% reliable. Sometimes, you will be out of stamina. It will happen, no matter how good you are at the game.

And when something like that does happen, a 5 second stun like Rune Cage is considerably more powerful than a 2 second stun.

If someone throws an Aurora Javelin at me, half the time I don't even bother breaking free, as it's one of the shortest stuns in the game (1.8 seconds). I'm not going to waste my stamina on that. But Rune Cage with its 5s duration is too much of a risk, even if I am in a situation that seems perfectly safe.

DenMoria · June 2018

Is it the 5 seconds that makes it unbalanced? Is it that you cannot break it that makes it unbalanced or is it because you could 1) Die if it's cast at you or 2) Not be able to kill you opponent immediately because they're defending themselves. Why is it unbalanced?

Marto wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Look im cotton pickin tired of this ! If I die to something i need it nerfed asap ! And clearly its over preforming and cheap, ultimately this will take my reputation of being a good player away from the community of players I never met in real life.

If I kill somebody surely it was my professional Esports skills that did it and obviously it's a l2p issue with them. Clearly I'm the best player in the world. Hahahaha

It honestly baffles me that people defend it with "Hurr durr you always want stuff nerfed because you die to it!". Not just from you, but many others in the thread.

Why are you incapable of looking at things objectively? Rune Prison being the longest stun in the entire game is a fact. Rune Prison being one of the longest ranged skills in the game is a fact. Rune prison being cheap compared to similar ranged attacks is a fact.

In your mind, what should decide if something should be nerfed or buffed? It bafles me you cannot see how Rune Prison is unbalanced.

Marto · June 2018

DenMoria wrote: »

Is it the 5 seconds that makes it unbalanced? Is it that you cannot break it that makes it unbalanced or is it because you could 1) Die if it's cast at you or 2) Not be able to kill you opponent immediately because they're defending themselves. Why is it unbalanced?

In my opinion, the three things that make it unbalanced are the range, the stun duration, and the bug that causes breaking free to be clunky with this specific ability.

Ranged stuns tend to be shorter than melee stuns in this game. The reasoning for it is quite clear: If you put yourself in danger by getting in melee range, you should be rewarded. This is why stuns like Aurora Javelin or Destructive reach are relatively short (1.8s and 2.5s) while stuns like the Surprise Attack sneak effect or Shield Charge are relatively long (4s and >3s)

Rune Cage gives you a lot of reward with little to no risk. There is no risk from the range, there is no risk from the cost, and there is no risk in any effects it provides.

It is a dull and uninteresting skill that gives a Sorcerer nothing but power, and the adversaries nothing but frustration. I don't feel I was outplayed when a sorcerer spams Rune Cage at me. I don't feel I can adapt to fight them (in the way I could adapt to fight sneaky nightblades by slotting mage light or revealing flare) nor do I feel I can outsmart them (fooling a DK into charging in melee range to lure him into a trap).

DenMoria · June 2018

Very true. But, then again, if you do manage to get within melee range of a sorcerer, they'll go down. They'll go down hard and they'll go down easy. Okay... maybe that's just my mage, but... And now you know why I don't let anybody get close at all. Ever.

Marto wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Is it the 5 seconds that makes it unbalanced? Is it that you cannot break it that makes it unbalanced or is it because you could 1) Die if it's cast at you or 2) Not be able to kill you opponent immediately because they're defending themselves. Why is it unbalanced?

In my opinion, the three things that make it unbalanced are the range, the stun duration, and the bug that causes breaking free to be clunky with this specific ability.

Ranged stuns tend to be shorter than melee stuns in this game. The reasoning for it is quite clear: If you put yourself in danger by getting in melee range, you should be rewarded. This is why stuns like Aurora Javelin or Destructive reach are relatively short (1.8s and 2.5s) while stuns like the Surprise Attack sneak effect or Shield Charge are relatively long (4s and >3s)

Rune Cage gives you a lot of reward with little to no risk. There is no risk from the range, there is no risk from the cost, and there is no risk in any effects it provides.

It is a dull and uninteresting skill that gives a Sorcerer nothing but power, and the adversaries nothing but frustration. I don't feel I was outplayed when a sorcerer spams Rune Cage at me. I don't feel I can adapt to fight them (in the way I could adapt to fight sneaky nightblades by slotting mage light or revealing flare) nor do I feel I can outsmart them (fooling a DK into charging in melee range to lure him into a trap).

Aldruin · June 2018

NyPetiwowp wrote: »

Have you guys heard of BREAK FREE, I'll help, right and left click, or bound it to a button, most of CCs are breakable immediatly, and there are some, for some unknown reason, which are not, like this Rune Prison or the Psijic's time stop, they are breakable after 1s or so, which is quite annoying tbo, that is what it is.

nub

notimetocare · June 2018

Marto wrote: »

Honest question. Wish I had anything more to add to the thread, but that really is all there is to it.

Why?

What is the logic and train of thought that lead towards one of the most powerful abilities in the game for one of the most powerful classes in the game to have its effectiveness doubled, despite the fact it was already superior in any conceivable way from other stuns?

Feel free to play devil's advocate in the comments. Because I sure as hell can't think of a way to justify it.

If any developers could also explain this decision, I would appreciate it as well.

Soft stun that breaks on damage, isn't it?

Potenza · June 2018

I use it and I see people break out of it in 2 seconds - so does it matter how long it is?

Bkella · June 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

Lol to the 'one of the most powerful classes' comment. Where have you been the last six months when Sorcs burst has been like a wet lettuce!!

As for 5 second or 2second its irrelevant. If you aren't breaking free cos ur out of resources ur dead either way.

Sorry, this falls under L2P and L2CounterSorcs

Exactly, break free or die basically.....same thing as a nightblade when I come across magDKs. If I can't break free of fossilize or talons (or both back to back!) Im done for. Also goes for people when I get off a fear, if they are out of stamina it's game over.

brandonv516 · June 2018

Low risk, high reward is never a good thing in PvP.

Rune Cage range needs to be lowered. 14m sounds good.

sly007 · June 2018

The range and or damage needs a nerf. Instant cast, 45 meter, unblockable, undodgeable stun with a burst component needs a nerf. I say nerf the damage thus allowing sorcerers who want to play range to continue without crippling their ability to cc targets from a distant (why is fossilize only 8 meters? Because dks are a thematically melee class).
We recently just received a ranged able unblockable, undodgeable stun, time stop. It does 0 damage and takes at least 4 seconds before it stuns the targets. I welcome time stop. It was needed in the game for many builds and groups that did not have access to such a CC (warden class, templar class).

But cage does not have any of the draw backs of time stop nor any other the other unblockable, undodgeable stuns in the game while having the damage and range, thus something has to give, and I recommend damage. The damage was the change ZOS was warned about during pts. They did not listen, which was expected.

Chilly-McFreeze · June 2018

sly007 wrote: »

The range and or damage needs a nerf. Instant cast, 45 meter, unblockable, undodgeable stun with a burst component needs a nerf. I say nerf the damage thus allowing sorcerers who want to play range to continue without crippling their ability to cc targets from a distant (why is fossilize only 8 meters? Because dks are a thematically melee class).
We recently just received a ranged able unblockable, undodgeable stun, time stop. It does 0 damage and takes at least 4 seconds before it stuns the targets. I welcome time stop. It was needed in the game for many builds and groups that did not have access to such a CC (warden class, templar class).

But cage does not have any of the draw backs of time stop nor any other the other unblockable, undodgeable stuns in the game while having the damage and range, thus something has to give, and I recommend damage. The damage was the change ZOS was warned about during pts. They did not listen, which was expected.

I guess most people would basically agree. But what would you do to counter the outcome: rune cage will be right back where it was, behind flame reach and only slotted by a few. Is it really acceptable that weapon skills are prefered over class skills?

E: don't get that wrong. I think it's okay if skills from open lines are situational better than class skills, why have them otherwise? But how many people used rune cage before summerset? The burst damage is too much, agreed. But something's gotta give. A dot or a debuff instead of the burst?