Question: Why is Rune Prison a 5 second long stun?

Marto · June 2018

Honest question. Wish I had anything more to add to the thread, but that really is all there is to it.

Why?

What is the logic and train of thought that lead towards one of the most powerful abilities in the game for one of the most powerful classes in the game to have its effectiveness doubled, despite the fact it was already superior in any conceivable way from other stuns?

Feel free to play devil's advocate in the comments. Because I sure as hell can't think of a way to justify it.

If any developers could also explain this decision, I would appreciate it as well.

Betsararie · June 2018

Doesn't matter

Judas Helviaryn · June 2018

It used to be 30 seconds.

Seriously.. Do people ever stop asking for nerfs?

Marto · June 2018

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

It used to be 30 seconds.

Seriously.. Do people ever stop asking for nerfs?

No, it wasn't. Do you know what skill you're talking about?

Syncronaut · June 2018

I havent seen many people use it offensive at all. They mostly use Defensive rune.

Super anoying then you do a stealth attack as nightblade.

Sometimes break free just wont work and it can backfire pretty badly.

Judas Helviaryn · June 2018

Marto wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

It used to be 30 seconds.

Seriously.. Do people ever stop asking for nerfs?

No, it wasn't. Do you know what skill you're talking about?

Dark Magic
....

Rune Prison: This ability and its morphs are no longer 30-second disorients. Instead, they are 2.5-second stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged, and they can be placed on multiple targets.

The disorient was effectively a stun, just a longer duration. It was still hard CC, and had to be broken out of. The only difference being you would come out of it if you were attacked.

The effectiveness of Rune Prison isn't the stun duration. It's the unblockable aspect that kills people. Stun or disorient, that shouldn't even be in question, and the way you state it, you seem to think the stun duration is the teeth of the ability.

That's simply false.

Marto · June 2018

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

It used to be 30 seconds.

Seriously.. Do people ever stop asking for nerfs?

No, it wasn't. Do you know what skill you're talking about?

Dark Magic
....

Rune Prison: This ability and its morphs are no longer 30-second disorients. Instead, they are 2.5-second stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged, and they can be placed on multiple targets.

The disorient was effectively a stun, just a longer duration. It was still hard CC, and had to be broken out of. The only difference being you would come out of it if you were attacked.

Dude. That's a massive difference. Don't act like it's not.

Stuns don't disappear when you're attacked. Means your enemy can attack you all they want for 5s.

And either way, why is it 5s?

Dizzyng Swing is 3.5
Defensive Stance is 3
Shield Charge is 3-5.64
Reverberating Bash is 3
Crushing Shock is 3
Destructive Touch (shock) is 2.5
Aurora Javelin is 1.8
Blinding Javelin is 3.1
Stonefist is 3
Petrify is 2.5
Dragon Leap is 2
Deep Breath is 2
Incapacitating Strike is 3
Teleport Strike is 2
Surprise Attack (stealthed) is 4
Aspect of Terror is 4
Soul Tether is 4.5
Bear is 2
Permafrost is 3
Dawnbreaker of Smiting is 1.8
Meteor is 2
Time Stop is 3

Why make Rune Prison so cheap, so easy to use, so free of risk, and make it objectively the best stun in the game?

nemvar · June 2018

Just revert crystal frag and rune cage. Nobody with a brain asked for this.

Betsararie · June 2018

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

It used to be 30 seconds.

Seriously.. Do people ever stop asking for nerfs?

come on.

Blacksmoke · June 2018

Because its not 2 seconds.

Betsararie · June 2018

Blacksmoke wrote: »

Because its not 2 seconds.

You know what guys I'm really beginning to love this game anew.

Gnozo · June 2018

Blanco wrote: »

Blacksmoke wrote: »

Because its not 2 seconds.

You know what guys I'm really beginning to love this game anew.

I need to say this but all of ur Post are only like "no" "nope" "i dont care" "Doesnt matter". Stop trolling and hunting for forum Stars.

Betsararie · June 2018

Gnozo wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Blacksmoke wrote: »

Because its not 2 seconds.

You know what guys I'm really beginning to love this game anew.

I need to say this but all of ur Post are only like "no" "nope" "i dont care" "Doesnt matter". Stop trolling and hunting for forum Stars.

why?

I told you who I am in game. You think forum stars matter?

tell me now. What is your @ please?

Vapirko · June 2018

Yes it’s unnecessarily long. I think adding the damage to it was a nice touch, to give a viable alternative to flame reach, but per usual they over did it. And went with high damage, undodgable/blockable, and 5 seconds. Too much as is the ZOS way.

Biro123 · June 2018

I think its a PVE change - making it useful to CC one mob while you focus on another.
Lets face it, in PVP, the duration doesn't really matter since 90% of the time it's broken-free from immediately anyway.. When it isn't, it usually only takes 2-3 seconds for them to recov enough stam to break free.. So you don't really get the full duration anyway.
Hence I think the duration increase is aimed at mobs.

FleetwoodSmack · June 2018

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

It used to be 30 seconds.

Seriously.. Do people ever stop asking for nerfs?

No, it wasn't. Do you know what skill you're talking about?

Dark Magic
....

Rune Prison: This ability and its morphs are no longer 30-second disorients. Instead, they are 2.5-second stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged, and they can be placed on multiple targets.

The disorient was effectively a stun, just a longer duration. It was still hard CC, and had to be broken out of. The only difference being you would come out of it if you were attacked.

The effectiveness of Rune Prison isn't the stun duration. It's the unblockable aspect that kills people. Stun or disorient, that shouldn't even be in question, and the way you state it, you seem to think the stun duration is the teeth of the ability.

That's simply false.

Honestly, Rune Prison has never stopped me dueling you. We both know what actually stops me and most of your kills. This is a cute thread.

TheUndeadAmulet · June 2018

LOL I saw that in the patch notes and I was waiting for someone to realize they buffed arguably the most op stun in the game.

DDuke · June 2018

Stun is the least of the issues with this ability.

How about the fact it has around 20% higher base tooltip damage than Destructive Reach, a blockable/dodgeable/reflectable/cloakable stun from destro staff?

Or that it's cheaper than Destructive Reach as well?

The skill is just overtuned no matter how you view it.

Violynne · June 2018

DDuke wrote: »

The skill is just overtuned no matter how you view it.

That's because this is how developers update the game:

Dev #1: "Guys, in looking at our server stats from last month, these skills and CP points aren't being used by players."
Dev #2: "And?"

Dev #1: "We need to find a way players can use them. Otherwise, everyone's just going to use the same skills and end up dead locked."
Dev #2: "Well, for starters, let's soft scale CP points. If people really want that extra 1%, make it expensive."

Dev #1: "Great idea! As for the skills?"
Dev #3: "Let's buff a few, release the Natch Potes to see if anyone pays attention, and let them figure out how to rotate them in."

Dev #1: "Perfect. Should we test first?"
Devs (in unison): "No. We'll patch when the 1% who can't play the game complain and then we'll nerf."

Dev #1: "Great. Looks like we're done for the day. Have a great weekend."

Well, that's how it plays out in my mind. Whether it's true or not... *looks at newly buffed unblockable stun

Biro123 · June 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Stun is the least of the issues with this ability.

How about the fact it has around 20% higher base tooltip damage than Destructive Reach, a blockable/dodgeable/reflectable/cloakable stun from destro staff?

Or that it's cheaper than Destructive Reach as well?

The skill is just overtuned no matter how you view it.

But then you could view it differently.. Reach benefits from 10% penetration from destro passives, can apply burning, returns mag if it kills, procs glyphs, also has a dot component (which in itself is useful for proccing a ton of stuff - like sloads, surge etc), just slotting it gives 8% more damage to everything - and not to mention what Master Staff does to it (which most reach builds use)..

I still think cage is better (I did pre-summerset) without masters - but then class skills imo should generally be stronger than weapon skills - but as usual, you are over-egging the difference :-) I'm convinced your 10k tooltip posts are what convinced so many people to start running it this patch...

redshirt_49 · June 2018

Eh, stuns aren't really the problem. The problem is that CC immunity is just straight up non-functional. And it's been that way for so long that any players who have come to the game since around the time morrowind came out think this is normal.

DDuke · June 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Stun is the least of the issues with this ability.

How about the fact it has around 20% higher base tooltip damage than Destructive Reach, a blockable/dodgeable/reflectable/cloakable stun from destro staff?

Or that it's cheaper than Destructive Reach as well?

The skill is just overtuned no matter how you view it.

But then you could view it differently.. Reach benefits from 10% penetration from destro passives, can apply burning, returns mag if it kills, procs glyphs, also has a dot component (which in itself is useful for proccing a ton of stuff - like sloads, surge etc), just slotting it gives 8% more damage to everything - and not to mention what Master Staff does to it (which most reach builds use)..

I still think cage is better (I did pre-summerset) without masters - but then class skills imo should generally be stronger than weapon skills - but as usual, you are over-egging the difference :-) I'm convinced your 10k tooltip posts are what convinced so many people to start running it this patch...

Note that I left out any and all sorc passives from the comparison.

If you want to compare 10% of opponent's mitigation (e.g. with 30% mitigation that passive is worth 3%) & 8% damage passive that you should already get from Elemental Drain to a 10%(5% in PvP) max health heal (Blood Magic passive) & 2% spell damage (Expert Mage), be my guest.

Even with special equipment like Master Destro you're only going to get more or less the same tooltip as Rune Cage on an ability that is one of the easiest things to dodge/block/reflect in PvP.

I find it mind-boggling that people still try to defend Rune Cage when no matter what you compare it to it winds up the winner.

Twice the damage & 28m more range than Fossilize, twice the CC duration
30m more range than Mass Hysteria & actually deals damage, 20% longer CC duration
etc

Rune Cage could be an ultimate & it'd be worth slotting.

thestud2012 · June 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Stun is the least of the issues with this ability.

How about the fact it has around 20% higher base tooltip damage than Destructive Reach, a blockable/dodgeable/reflectable/cloakable stun from destro staff?

Or that it's cheaper than Destructive Reach as well?

The skill is just overtuned no matter how you view it.

But then you could view it differently.. Reach benefits from 10% penetration from destro passives, can apply burning, returns mag if it kills, procs glyphs, also has a dot component (which in itself is useful for proccing a ton of stuff - like sloads, surge etc), just slotting it gives 8% more damage to everything - and not to mention what Master Staff does to it (which most reach builds use)..

I still think cage is better (I did pre-summerset) without masters - but then class skills imo should generally be stronger than weapon skills - but as usual, you are over-egging the difference :-) I'm convinced your 10k tooltip posts are what convinced so many people to start running it this patch...

Slotting gives 8% more damage to everything? What did I miss?

bottleofsyrup · June 2018

Still not as bad as the unbreakable Psijic CC.

Koolio · June 2018

Marto wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

It used to be 30 seconds.

Seriously.. Do people ever stop asking for nerfs?

No, it wasn't. Do you know what skill you're talking about?

Dark Magic
....

Rune Prison: This ability and its morphs are no longer 30-second disorients. Instead, they are 2.5-second stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged, and they can be placed on multiple targets.

The disorient was effectively a stun, just a longer duration. It was still hard CC, and had to be broken out of. The only difference being you would come out of it if you were attacked.

Dude. That's a massive difference. Don't act like it's not.

Stuns don't disappear when you're attacked. Means your enemy can attack you all they want for 5s.

And either way, why is it 5s?

Dizzyng Swing is 3.5
Defensive Stance is 3
Shield Charge is 3-5.64
Reverberating Bash is 3
Crushing Shock is 3
Destructive Touch (shock) is 2.5
Aurora Javelin is 1.8
Blinding Javelin is 3.1
Stonefist is 3
Petrify is 2.5
Dragon Leap is 2
Deep Breath is 2
Incapacitating Strike is 3
Teleport Strike is 2
Surprise Attack (stealthed) is 4
Aspect of Terror is 4
Soul Tether is 4.5
Bear is 2
Permafrost is 3
Dawnbreaker of Smiting is 1.8
Meteor is 2
Time Stop is 3

Why make Rune Prison so cheap, so easy to use, so free of risk, and make it objectively the best stun in the game?

It got a cost increase of 75% when they changed this from a disorient

redshirt_49 · June 2018

bottleofsyrup wrote: »

Still not as bad as the unbreakable Psijic CC.

Timestop + Shield Stack + Immovable Pot + Eye of the Storm = Profit. By all means, nerf your sloads and keep letting me do this

JJBoomer · June 2018

So basically, when something becomes good, it has to be nerfed, be made bad, in order to be good?

Why not just nerf everything. That way everything will suck. Seems thats what pvp'ers want. for everything to suck equally. Gods forbid something be a bit better than something else in a game mode where winning in the main purpose XD

I'm not a pvp'er. but this crusade for constant nerfs is baffling.

VexingArcanist · June 2018

Syncronaut wrote: »

I havent seen many people use it offensive at all. They mostly use Defensive rune.

Super anoying then you do a stealth attack as nightblade.

Sometimes break free just wont work and it can backfire pretty badly.

Then you don't pvp. Seriously, how can you even make such a claim? Rune Cage ALL DAY LONG.

bottleofsyrup wrote: »

Still not as bad as the unbreakable Psijic CC.

Normally you have plenty of time to get out of the field before the stun goes off. I realize there can be interactions that inhibit your ability to get out in time, but with Rune Cage you often don't even see it coming.

SkillzMFG · June 2018

Marto wrote: »

Honest question. Wish I had anything more to add to the thread, but that really is all there is to it.

Why?

What is the logic and train of thought that lead towards one of the most powerful abilities in the game for one of the most powerful classes in the game to have its effectiveness doubled, despite the fact it was already superior in any conceivable way from other stuns?

Feel free to play devil's advocate in the comments. Because I sure as hell can't think of a way to justify it.

If any developers could also explain this decision, I would appreciate it as well.

Ever heard of fossilize? It's like half a minute long stun+root

Biro123 · June 2018

thestud2012 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Stun is the least of the issues with this ability.

How about the fact it has around 20% higher base tooltip damage than Destructive Reach, a blockable/dodgeable/reflectable/cloakable stun from destro staff?

Or that it's cheaper than Destructive Reach as well?

The skill is just overtuned no matter how you view it.

But then you could view it differently.. Reach benefits from 10% penetration from destro passives, can apply burning, returns mag if it kills, procs glyphs, also has a dot component (which in itself is useful for proccing a ton of stuff - like sloads, surge etc), just slotting it gives 8% more damage to everything - and not to mention what Master Staff does to it (which most reach builds use)..

I still think cage is better (I did pre-summerset) without masters - but then class skills imo should generally be stronger than weapon skills - but as usual, you are over-egging the difference :-) I'm convinced your 10k tooltip posts are what convinced so many people to start running it this patch...

Slotting gives 8% more damage to everything? What did I miss?

Ancient knowledge passive on destro line. With sorcs struggle for bar-space, a reason reach became popular was to fill the slot as both cc and spammable while also fulfilling that 'slotted destro ability' requirement.

I've often found it difficult to even slot a single destro ability, and if not for the light attack buffs and weapons giving 2 set bonuses this patch, I'd still be using DW for it's 5% with no skill-slotting requirement.

Dagoth_Rac · June 2018

thestud2012 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Stun is the least of the issues with this ability.

How about the fact it has around 20% higher base tooltip damage than Destructive Reach, a blockable/dodgeable/reflectable/cloakable stun from destro staff?

Or that it's cheaper than Destructive Reach as well?

The skill is just overtuned no matter how you view it.

But then you could view it differently.. Reach benefits from 10% penetration from destro passives, can apply burning, returns mag if it kills, procs glyphs, also has a dot component (which in itself is useful for proccing a ton of stuff - like sloads, surge etc), just slotting it gives 8% more damage to everything - and not to mention what Master Staff does to it (which most reach builds use)..

I still think cage is better (I did pre-summerset) without masters - but then class skills imo should generally be stronger than weapon skills - but as usual, you are over-egging the difference :-) I'm convinced your 10k tooltip posts are what convinced so many people to start running it this patch...

Slotting gives 8% more damage to everything? What did I miss?

A fire staff + a destro skill slotted = 8% bonus to single target damage.
A shock staff + a destro skill slotted = 8% bonus to AoE damage.