@WhiteNoiseMaker

I'll make this my last response, not because I'm not enjoying the conversation, but because I want to respect the intent of this thread and I feel like a prolonged discussion derails it.

But I will say this, everything you are asking for is what I feel like I'm experiencing when I tank in this game. My mind is primarily on veteran dungeons these days, so that might make a difference. But when I play a veteran dungeon I feel like I am 100% taking up the role of battle field commander, most of what I do is crowd control, the rest of what I do is proactively protecting my group and giving buffs that aid their survivability. I chain, root, snare, shield allies, lessen the enemy damage output, etc. I seriously feel like you just described the role as I experience it every time I play. And your vision for what tanking "should be" rocks. I'm loving playing it that way.

In my signature is a link to a guide I wrote on tanking. It is extremely long, but it is essentially a very long guide on how to do what you are asking for in veteran dungeons.

BejaProphet wrote: »

The game hasn't made us perma-blockers. The game is doing everything it can to stop us from being a perma-blocker. It keeps punishing it more and more. The advice from all the "leet dudes" are turning us into perma-blockers because they keep telling you not to build a tank. The keep giving you build advice that they use when they have two dedicated trial healers (built for pure healing) constantly spamming heals on them. I don't perma-block in any of the vet DLC dungeons, nor do I shield spam. I just tank. But to do that you need to be a tank.

What you are experiencing is ironically the thing for which you are all asking. The game is demanding a real tank. Not somebody with a taunt slotted, not a third of fourth damage dealer, not a hybrid, but a real honest to goodness tank that can take the big hits, grin, and ask for another.

Have you seen Cloudrest tank gear?

Aegis of Galenwe wrote:

After successfully blocking, you have a 50% chance to grant Empower to 3 allies within 15 meters, increasing the damage of their next Light Attack by 40%. 1 second cooldown.

It looks like they are confused because you have right points yet they don't just allow it.

You can do vet dungeon content barely using your shield at all (some DLC dungeon can punish you tho even with capped resistances).

I can imagine myself tanking axes in VAA without blocking, every hit they give requires a block.
In MoL you need to block even on normal and pretty much everytime.
Let's not talk about HoF.

Plus they just released a set which lasts for a very little time but can activate very often (so it is intended to be used often).

Personally i'd like to play the tank that you describe but there is no way to do so.

My res. are capped when self buffed but if i run out of resources in those situation i can be 3-4 shotted, that's ok since healers are there but it's ok if it happens only when I run out of resources, every one and then, I can't take an healer just for myself (nice tank i would be) all the time so I need not permablock but close to it.

I consider balancing the classes in this role the most important thing. Until that's done, most tanking feedback is coming from DK & warden.

We need feedback from all classes, we need improvements to NB, templar & sorc to get the to a comparable desirability as DK/Warden in end game content. DK ruled, and warden came in at a close-enough second. The other three classes also need to be at this 'close enough' place, and they aren't.

The whole sword and board line needs its damage boosted; a tank will never ever ever complete vet Maelstrom Arena. leveling is boring and tedious.

The KEY to making tanking near-exclusive abilities is TAUNT

Quadruple (at least) the damage of taunt (puncture) do the same for inner fire. Increase the damage of low slash and make it an AOE taunt.

I still feel the need to boost tank personal DPS via taunt DPS boosts-lowering the need or effectiveness of utility will make tanks less needed in groups and you still have the glaring problems of slow leveling and ineffectiveness in solo content like VMA.

Significantly boosting the damage of taunt and giving an AOE taunt will make tanks more effective in groups while also giving them the ability to solo better while also keep taunt and tank abilities on their bar while leveling.

The only thing they actually did is requiring more stamina to block.
They gave no way to obtain the same thing (protection) in a different way.

Let's put the situation to a DPS:

Game: Hey I dont want u to weave all the time! I'll increase the magicka cost of all your abilities.
Player: Aw! Ok, how should i Deal (more or less) the same damage now?
Game: You don't!


The actual result is that who could permablock before (DK tanks with equilibrium) can still do it, block is just harder for the others (here's why someone pointed that other classes needs to tank but i think that everything's related)

But let's just say they give u enough resistance to survive even without blocking (except for heavy) what are you supposed to do then?

I can start weaving like a crazy but what am I obtaining? Am i doing something or just "pretending"?

Truth is we have nothing BETTER to do even if we could. Like you said in (most) Vet dungeons we dont need to permablock (and in most normal trial as well) but whatever else we do is hardly worth at all

Noldornir wrote: »

Have you seen Cloudrest tank gear?

Aegis of Galenwe wrote:

After successfully blocking, you have a 50% chance to grant Empower to 3 allies within 15 meters, increasing the damage of their next Light Attack by 40%. 1 second cooldown.

I'm with Noldornir here...
You can't claim the Dev's are trying to stop the perma-block mechanic when everything mechanically shown in gear and bosses points to the exact opposite. This new set is really just the cherry on top of the frosting when it comes to dev;s POV of the block mechanics

*Edited because I was mixing my points and blurring the discussion*

So you guys inspired me to update my tank and play a bit more on them. I mostly tried to not perma block. In normal dungeons with PUGS I barely blocked at all... I just sort of chained junk together and waited for my dps to kill them.

There is one BIG thing I noticed that i think significantly contributes to people feeling like they need to perma block. I can't see the one shots because there is sooo much visual clutter on screen, many bosses make all these flames and there is lightning sparking everywhere so It can be really difficult to focus on the animations the boss is doing.

You get red circles for all damage without any way to tell if its a CC damage, a one shot you have to block or a little tickle of an AoE. So you just see all these red circles and you just don't get any idea which ones are lethal.

rework impulse to AOE taunt *if* a frost staff is equipped. Change low slash to a full AOE taunt and increase the damage to at least match impulse damage.

As I said previously, the goal is to greatly improve sword and board damage to match other weapon weapon damage to make tank more appealing for leveling and solo content like VMA. With taunt attached to the damage increases, that will make it a very easy progression from current tank builds

pizzaow wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

how about give us some skill-related ways to further improve a tank's improvement?
say, blocking a heavy attack now would set an enemy off-balance and vulnerable to extra damage.

They kind of have this as part of the Atronach Champion point tree:
Tactician:
(Unlocks at The Atronach Rank 120) Sets enemies off balance when you successfully Roll Dodge to avoid their attack.

What's nice about this is that it will set bosses off balance that are otherwise immune (and there's no cooldown). It's changed the way I tank some fights (like the main boss in AS). It's not as easy as blocking, but does reward tank skill as you mentioned.

that's nice but off balance is already procced from lightning staff.
i would like to see a new debuff unique to tanking.

@BejaProphet

You are right, i'm mainly talking about trials/endgame content.

Until I hit 50/160 i made little use of my shield at all ( i made 90% of my levels/CP in randoms/pledge), that (little use of shield) also happens on normal trials (craglorn ones).

I really like your list and your clarification (perma/prolonged) and mostly agree with you.

1. Because we don't know the fight well enough to spot the incoming one shots, so we just block everything to be safe.

This, of course, is our (tanks) fault but should not happen again after a few runs when we learn the fight, if we dont we should consider change job

2. We aren't tanky enough to sustain the totality of incoming damage, therefore block is the means of managing ALL of it rather than just the means of managing one shots.

This is what usually happens but will discuss it later

3. Our group has failed at their job such that more damage is coming in rather than the intended normal amount for the fight. Perhaps there is a constant stream of adds, and they fail to do appropriate damage and now we are tanking twice the mobs intended.

Lemme guess... someone shoot liquid lighting before u had the chance to do anything on a large group, he also forgot the shields and got shotted now your team DPS is halved

4. The fight has truly been designed to be so difficult that even though we have built our characters well, and our group is doing their job, the only feasible way to survive is to perma block.

This needs imho to be discussed with (2)


While 1-3 is actually player/s (us or team) fault and we are not discussing it here 2 and 4 requires some thinking.



Why are we not? Why do we have class rapresentatives using and posting builds like these?


Dragon Bones build



Summerset Upodate



In DB build particulary we can notice a WAY low resistances value (major ward/protection WERE active in there) and he was using bloodspawn (+6 k res and ultimate, procs on being hit with 6% chance)

If we add those 6k from monster sets we hit the caps.

The difference in Sumerset build is that he's using another monster set (Lord Warden's which always gives some resistances plus an AoE resistances bonus on being hit).

As we can see he is hitting the caps (and he's aiming to do so) only when the monster sets procs because those bonus would be wasted otherwise.

The other set he uses are Alkosh/Ebon Armory.

Truth is he simply can't get tankier, he could hit/surpass the caps with many sets but he wouldn''t get anything out of it. And that answr this question "Why are we not? Why do we have class rapresentatives using and posting builds like these?"

At first glance Alcast's build looks lacking in resistances but it's not he's just aiming to get just as much as needed while as DDs you just keep stacking n stackin, there's not a limit to the damage you can deal you just have to be careful with penetrations but you can go freely on everything else

This is also why no one ever complains about my CPs (i'm around 530 ATM) regardless what I do. Try n bring 2 500 tanks in a vet and see group's reaction than bring in 2 500 DDs they'll be much more pissed off 'cause tanks almost stops "growing" after a while for the very same reasons.

All of this to say there could be some problem in points 2-4 with the balance of it: too many (4) situations (in endgame) or he's not tanky enough (2) but i don't really see how he could be better.

Only reasons i dont use the very same build are:

1) Argonian Race which i (personally) don't like but i reckon racials are good.

2) He must be much more skilled than I am, i would die much more often with that build because it requires a good tempo while i'm a master in messing up I can see myself not using equilibrium 'cause my magicka is full I'm also a PS4 player so no add-ons just a tiny overcrowded buff bar that should be of some help (but it is barely since the buffs also swap positions).


So, even by agreeing with you, I still see the same problems:

1) How can you get tankier with the currents limits? (diminished returns from multiple layers of protection, shields effectiveness and other damage reduction gets weakier the more resistances you have etc.)

2) Let's say you become the best tank ever by fixing (1), and you only blocks heavy hits now.
What can you do that actually helps the party out? Just tell me what you could do in a common bossfight (Let's say Molag Kena on Vet.)

In normal dungeon i weave with puncture but in a trial or even Vets dungeon it would be like a wood elf child punching at a big ogres chest, Heroic slash does not benefit from being spammed and it's cost is very high while most other skills are for tanking/sustain.


Edit: fixed some things, long n messy post sry

Xanxarib16_ESO wrote: »

The 2 or 3 Tanking Problems we have in ESO is 1. a very simple Force Taunt mechanic and 2 a way to have unlimited Blocking and 3 some very low DPS.




Unlimiteed blocking

now it looks like over the years ESO have tried to Force tanks to become more active in reactive blocking and doing some damage or Buffing... but they failed time and time again. this is also one of the reason i gave up on ESO, the tanking was way to easy.
My suggestion to fix this is to add a new resource bar that is used for Dodging and Blocking... when you activly block you will slowly drain the bar, and if you stop blocking you will regain the resource at a fix slow amount, now if you make light attacks and heavy attacks you will regain a fixed amount of the resource back, that way you are now forcing Tanks to weave in attacks between blocks... maybe give some skills give you some of that resource also.
When it comes to dodging make Dodge cost so much that you can at max dodge twice in a row, maybe give the sword&shield skill line a reduce cost in dodging so tanks can maybe dodge 3 or 4 times in a row.
With this fix you can still have boss attacks that even tanks need to dodge away from you will also have forced tanks to be more reactive...


Force taunt

now you dont have to fix this but Threat and Threat generation would also force tanks into doing damage to maintain agro, pair this with my suggestion to Block and you will have one more tool that will force tanks to be reactive tanks.


Low DPS

if you move away from the Force taunts, you might need to increase the tanks DPS. now the best solution to fix this would be to let tanks damage scale of MAX HP...!

Your scaring me now increasing tank dps this might make tanks op again in PvP

BejaProphet wrote: »

Noldornir wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

The game hasn't made us perma-blockers. The game is doing everything it can to stop us from being a perma-blocker. It keeps punishing it more and more. The advice from all the "leet dudes" are turning us into perma-blockers because they keep telling you not to build a tank. The keep giving you build advice that they use when they have two dedicated trial healers (built for pure healing) constantly spamming heals on them. I don't perma-block in any of the vet DLC dungeons, nor do I shield spam. I just tank. But to do that you need to be a tank.

What you are experiencing is ironically the thing for which you are all asking. The game is demanding a real tank. Not somebody with a taunt slotted, not a third of fourth damage dealer, not a hybrid, but a real honest to goodness tank that can take the big hits, grin, and ask for another.

Have you seen Cloudrest tank gear?

Aegis of Galenwe wrote:

After successfully blocking, you have a 50% chance to grant Empower to 3 allies within 15 meters, increasing the damage of their next Light Attack by 40%. 1 second cooldown.

It looks like they are confused because you have right points yet they don't just allow it.

You can do vet dungeon content barely using your shield at all (some DLC dungeon can punish you tho even with capped resistances).

I can imagine myself tanking axes in VAA without blocking, every hit they give requires a block.
In MoL you need to block even on normal and pretty much everytime.
Let's not talk about HoF.

Plus they just released a set which lasts for a very little time but can activate very often (so it is intended to be used often).

Personally i'd like to play the tank that you describe but there is no way to do so.

My res. are capped when self buffed but if i run out of resources in those situation i can be 3-4 shotted, that's ok since healers are there but it's ok if it happens only when I run out of resources, every one and then, I can't take an healer just for myself (nice tank i would be) all the time so I need not permablock but close to it.

Everybody always mentions the axes when I say these things. Ok then, lets be fair. I won't deny that there are some rare encounters in the game that are block heavy no matter how you build your character. But you can't honestly say I'm wrong when I tell people that the developers of the game have been intentionally trying to break us from perma blocking with all the nerfs. You are grasping at little inconsistencies when what I am saying is blatantly the case.

I know right.. The axes aren't the only boss mechanic in the game. Sheesh.

White wabbit wrote: »

Your scaring me now increasing tank dps this might make tanks op again in PvP

tanks were never op in PVP, dumb players just couldn't solo kill them and got frustrated. Top players already wear heavy armor and kill things with other weapon skills, sword and board needs a damage increase to help with a ridiculous gap with PVE soloing.

The PVP situation can easily be solved by actually tuning abilities separately for PVP and PVE similar to healing and snares/stuns/roots instead of just a blanket across-the-board damage increase.