[Class Rep] Tanking Feedback Thread

Kuwhar · June 2018

1. The primary issue for me is I can't build to be an optimal tank, yet have that translate into other areas. Healers stacking spell damage and crit benefits both group and solo play. DPS obviously same story.

And that doesn't necessarily make me more survivable in solo PvE, because killing things quicker is almost always a better option to surviving than trying to sustain against a group of mobs.

2. Couple that with the 1h+shield ability line being in a weird state of having a couple useful tank skills, and others that don't have much application in most scenarios especially given their stam cost vs damage.

I think 1h+shield should either have skills that scale with health, or have skills that let you use some health reserves.

Something like a buff that lowers your health by 15% but raises your damage and crit by 15%.

Something like that where you probably wouldn't use it while tanking in groups, but you still wont be punished for stacking health since you can use it during solo/easy play.

TheNightflame · June 2018

i was wondering where things stand with alkosh, powerful assault, and aegis of galanwe (for both warden and dk tanks). does galanwe buff ele weapon buffed light attacks? a lot of tanks are startung to move from alkosh to PA on my server

regime211 · June 2018

Also i want to add, if you have plans on making tanks versatile in not just tanking and DPS, please don't just throw more gear sets, but instead look at some skill lines that are based off of health and buff those instead, or make a new skill line that scales off of health, because that's what I feel like is going to happen. I play a warden and much rather have my skills that are based off my health pool to be buffed instead of throwing on some 5 piece trait armor to do damage.

josiahva · June 2018

Dedricus wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

^^ I agree with Whitenoisemaker 100%. I love to tank...but I rarely if ever tank trials. Why? Because I am told I have to wear that garbage Ebon set, use this and that ability, etc. There is absolutely no reason for me to tank trials when I cant play my build, but instead have to play someone else's build entirely.

1. Ebon is God's gift to tanks. Utility and Self defense in one? Hell yeah.

2.You can do just about anything you want in normal trials. Past that, you start getting into competitive end game where your build matters. No game is going to let you have free reign over what to do at their highest level of difficulty. That's why it's called the meta, and that's why people follow it. WoW, GW2, and even here. High end raids require you to utilize optimal performance.

THAT SAID... I'd like to see more diversity among tanks and for the role to become about truly tanking. Seeing Torug overtake Alkosh for dungeons was great, but there's still no reason to wear sets with resistance. Atm, tanks feel like defensive supports. Sure you hold the boss, but you're mostly there to buff the dps.

Sorry, Ebon IS garbage...yes, it benefits everyone...gives them a WHOPPING 5% more health. Just how often do you survive if you are taken down to 5% health? Check your kills in PvP for under 5% health...that should tell you how often 5% is going to make any difference at all to your survivability. You know what set is better? JUST ABOUT ANY SET. I myself like Imperium...a 16k shield(even with its short duration) is better. Seducer with its buff to magicka regen is better...means I can cast igneous more often. Knightmare with its minor maim is better...reducing damage from all enemies in 8 meters by 15%. Alteration mastery is better....Powerful Assault is better....ANY set is better 5% health makes no difference 99.999% of the time...that's the truth. There are many sets that will boost group utility in one way or another...all Ebon does is make DPS think they are more likely to survive...but its a lie...if you are under 5% health, you are going to die anyway because you are taking too much damage to begin with. Ebon is a mental crutch for DPS to feel better. If you are relying on the tank running Ebon to survive, you need to learn to take better care of yourself.

Oathunbound · June 2018

I only have 1 pain point and that is certain bosses in dungeons that can 1 shot a tank with a heavy attack even when blocking. I tank on my NB and while I'm not 100% speced for tanking i find is very annoying when a boss can deal a extreme amount of damage regardless of blocking. For an example Doylemish Ironheart in vet scalecaller peak. When he hits me with his heavy attack when im blocking it just drops me and in the recap it shows his attack hitting me for 39k even tho i blocked the attack. While i can dodge it (sometimes) the attack wind up is kinda wonky and i usually end up not timing it right and i get slammed regardless. Also mighty chudan in vet ruins of mazzutan, her bile attack will one-shot if i don't dodge it but her heavy is a bit easier to dodge. I really don't want to see the trend continue where bosses can one-shot tanks through block and force them to dodge roll instead on every single heavy attack

kojou · June 2018

1. Get rid of Ice Staff tanking. Make it a meaningful means of DPS instead.

2. Add a passive to HA that increases healing received and reduces block cost, but also reduces all outgoing damage.

PS: Buff Nords.

Noldornir · June 2018

An active role in battle.

We do need to stop permablocking (but now can't) i think that the whole way block works should be redisegned.

we have Sword and Board as weapon (with meh skill beside 2-3). Wonder what the sword is there for most times...

Resistances caps can be hitten easily with the right sets but are not rewarding at all, shield should be planned to be used only in some situation (heavy/special attacks) it's awful to see the stronger warrior in the team ducking behind his shield and, unless the fight is intense, is also boring!

I don't think that tank should deal more damage (maybe a lil to solo but 8-10k DPS can be hit just by changing gear) but a more "active" role in the battle especcially in boss fights.

Trials, Vets n so on are good actually 'cause tank have a lot of things to do but have u ever tanked Vet WGT with a low DPS team? There, as tank, u basically have to hope they'll end it before nightfall.

BTW

Who runs trials know that in many places tanks n off-tanks are required, if u ask me the off-tank is by far the hardest role of the two and why is that? You don't just CC-Aggro-Block but u do something more active n based on circumstances and also need to pay attention not to steal the main taunt aggro.

Since u want us to take dmg AND provide buff some S&B skill for that (instead of 2 different stuns) might help maybe something related to party protection how come that I have to buff ppl but, to do so, I need a MEDIUM armor set.

Also diminished returns from multiple sources of protection sucks, math tells that this is good when DEALING damage while it's crap while Absorbing it.

To put it simplier; on easier content a good DPS/healer can do my job while I can't. I don't think that I should be able to do their job but the opposite shouldn't happen as well (20k damage shields which can be recasted) is better than my resistances in most times; the only real reason we use heavy is for passives or it' would be better to go with a robe

Saderis · June 2018

Many things were already covered but as a Tank fanboy in most of big mmorpgs since the first days of WoW I totally need to add my cries and laughs here:

So first, for all these years as I play as tank in many mmorpg (I absolutely love this role) I have to sadly say that eso offers the WORST tanking experience I ever encountered. So for my 2 points:

1- B O R I N G ! Tanking was always quite rare role being a bit less "fun"(not for me) then dps, but the % of people playing tank in eso is just a tragedy. Why this role is so boring here:
a) This was stated before but it is like a thorn in my tanky ass: are we made just for making the game more fun for OTHER roles? I understand that tanks are supposed to take aggro, position mobs, cast buffs/debuffs but here I have a feeling like I am a slave for dps, wearing sets just to make fun for THEM, using skills what other roles demands from me and doing exactly what some1 is demanding. "No ebon set? - noob tank" I'ts not my job to play this game and make fun for others I also want entertainment.
b) Leveling as tank - dear God just don't level as tank! It's literally not possible to have a decent experience while trying to be tank and doing quests. Yeah ok, I can crawl to lvl 10 and spam random dungs till 50. Cool, but what if I want to experience the open world, storyline, side quests as tank? I can't cuz it take ages to kill a single mob. Right I can swap my gear, do another skill set for an offtank build. But I do not want to be forced to do this. To carry different set in my bag just to have a chance of doing a normal open world quest in less then an hour. I didn't had to do this in wow, dcu or gw2. And before you ask NO - it's not fun/challenging it's plain stupid.
c) Absolutely not real, stupid, boring bash animations. ZOS devs, did they ever saw how a shield bash looks like? It's a hit! A powerfull, strike from which you can feel the force of the heavy impact. What I am doing in eso with my shield, gently stroking the cheeks? I know that games should not have full realistic combat system/physics (especially mmorpgs) but this bash move seems like I am trying to chase away the fly. Look on medievial type combat games how does the bashing and generally shield moves look. Watch how the knights fight with a shield. Devs - L E A R N... or hire me I'm a certified medieval swordsman

d) First when I saw the decision from eso devs that no aoe taunt will be included in game I was happy. "Yay something new!" I wondered how will they compansate the lack of it. Now I know - they don't. You can also cut off the runners leg and say " hey you are intented to run with one leg! I'ts more challenging! Now go and have fun." - srsly being oryginal does not mean you are better. As far as I can life without aoe taunt and understand that this game actually don't need it since tank should just focus on heavy hitters, the ways of single target taunt are poorly designed. "Oh I just move close and touch this mob gently with the tip of my sword, this will totaly turn him away from the burning meteor falling on his head every few secs" A scream/roar, grab, throw, HEAVY impact strike, *** anything but not such butter knife press. Second one - inner fire: I even do not know what the *** is this thing? A compressed air projectile? I spit on mob so he gets angry? This thing is barely visible, without addon I don't even know if I hit that mob or not. Ice staff was removed from the game so... heavy attack single target taunt... right.
e) Lack of visual aspects of being a tank. I miss simple cosmetic aspects of tanking like: Trembling ground, roars (like Xal-Nur have), heavy looking dashes, pushing away mobs/ throws, making character bigger by rage or something (yes I know it's not WoW and such things are not lore-friendly, but so are 12832 world saviours in one town). I like the feeling of being the walking mountain of steel, but there is no such chance in eso.

2 - Tanks are not needed in most of the content So tank sucks in open world quests, ok let's see what do we have more:
a) dungeons? - Nope we prefer to have another dps. But hey! pug in for random and pray to have about 10k dps in total or else you are stuck in there for hours. But hey we are not supposed to have damage right? There is a tradeoff between damage and survivability so it's fine *cough* magdps shields *cough* Btw about 4/5 of my random dungs (as healer or dd) I have fake tanks. And actually I do not mind them. It's a common thing to wait 30-40minutes as dps for a random dung. Would be better if for every 1 tank there would not be 50 dpses waiting in queue.
b) Public dungeons, craglorn delves? - Nope dps only. Maybe healer.
c) vMA

Raname it to dps only arena.
d) vetTrials - okay! And this is a place where you need a tank! Real and the only possible combination of alkosh/ebon with precisely defined skills to make the run fun for dps. Team wipe? Noob tank!
e) No point in boosting your health/defence if so many things can one shot you. Magsorc can survive similar level of punishment so... what's the point?

ZeroXFF · June 2018

Just read the meeting notes, and please, drop this part...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Tanks want to aid the group, but the current mechanics of group buffs 1) limit to only 6 players and 2) continue to only hit the same 6 players upon further activations (it’s the old purge bug)

Please, do not make tanks buff bots. I want to tank, and I want to wear gear that actually buffs tanking, not the DDs. Not like there are any mandatory sets DDs have to wear to help tanks. I would also love to use ultimates other than war horn without feeling like I'm letting down the group.

Seriously, that's the reason I wish Alkosh was nerfed along with Sunderflame and Nightmother's Gaze. I'd love to aid the group, but by doing my role properly, not by making it easier for someone who the devs bend over backwards to accommodate already.

And if for some weird reason someone actually likes buffing another role instead of the one they are currently performing, at least make it so that there are no tradeoffs in regards to the used skills and sets. The tradeoffs should be between different kinds of utility, not utility vs. survival. There must be no compromises on survival, or else tanking is hardly tanking any more.

Narvuntien · June 2018

So a tank Debuffs the target, buffs the team. Stands there and takes damage.

e) No point in boosting your health/defence if so many things can one shot you.

I think this is the key issue here, you get one shot if you don't block some attacks, so people just build to perminately block so they don't run the risk of dying. Which in turn makes tanking incredably boring or just too hard.

You can so easily run into the resistance cap (thanks Cp) that stacking tanky stats isn't that useful. Stacking health can help to some extent to limit the number of getting 1 shot situations but then you don't have stamina and you die to must block abilities. Not to mention with damage scaling off max stats you cannot do any damage.

I feel like the whole way damage is dealt needs to be looked at and that 50% damage mitigation cap modified to make being tanky rather than shielding or self healing be the major way to survive. But I am worried that it could seriously mess up the whole game.

What I do like about tanks is that they are actually hybrid we use magicka and stamina abilities and make the most out of all our resources.

Nolic1 · June 2018

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I'll try and post a meaningful post to break the ice...

I feel like right now the 'meta' of group content has pigeonholed the Tanking role into a footstool for the DPS role. I mean, there is support, and then there is 'support'. In other games, tanking feels like a role unto itself, complete with mission goals that are definable, measurable, and unique. In ESO we've no real benchmark or measure of our own success.

I feel as if in ESO, we tanks exist only to glorify the DPS and scoreboard-chasers. We're not really shield-arms covering the flanks, battlefield commanders or controllers, we have actually very little lock-up or CC function in high end content. We're flat-out TOLD how our builds should serve the DPS with Warhorn, Ebon Set, and other features that should be part of a greater toolbox now being flat-out demanded of us by people who don't even play our role. It's quite honestly both demoralizing and humiliating.

I also feel as if the Dev's have currently seen that Tanks 'need something' but are at a loss of just what exactly fills that need. The newest DLC content has only created situations where there's an even greater emphasis on the DPS race, rage timers, and other factors that don't allow us to shine as part of a trinity. We're not even that great at being meat-shields anymore, as almost all new DLC content can pretty much one-shot us now, we must evade and avoid rather than endure through boss combats.

This only covers the aspect of tanking in PVE. I'm not even going to get into how it feels as if tanks have been completely emasculated in PVP to the point of not even bothering. Like the modern definition, in PVP a battlefield tank should be enduring, aggressive, and spearheading the assault so the infantry can shelter and advance behind it. There's absolutely no sense of protection a tank provides other players in this regard currently in ESO.

I'll be blunt, from the last several iterations and mechanics passes since Dark Brotherhood dropped, it really feels as if Wroble HATES tank players and the tank role. This is my perception, but there's been a palpable snubbing and depowering of any effectiveness that tanks have in the game, to the point where I've now rolled several more healers and severely curtailed queuing into content as a tank, because it feels like I'm just setting myself up for systemic abuse.

These are just my thoughts, off the cuff, stream of consciousness...

This is exactly how I feel about tanking in ESO right now and feel it needs to change.

Noldornir · June 2018

Saderis wrote: »

Many things were already covered but as a Tank fanboy in most of big mmorpgs since the first days of WoW I totally need to add my cries and laughs here:

So first, for all these years as I play as tank in many mmorpg (I absolutely love this role) I have to sadly say that eso offers the WORST tanking experience I ever encountered. So for my 2 points:

1- B O R I N G ! Tanking was always quite rare role being a bit less "fun"(not for me) then dps, but the % of people playing tank in eso is just a tragedy. Why this role is so boring here:
a) This was stated before but it is like a thorn in my tanky ass: are we made just for making the game more fun for OTHER roles? I understand that tanks are supposed to take aggro, position mobs, cast buffs/debuffs but here I have a feeling like I am a slave for dps, wearing sets just to make fun for THEM, using skills what other roles demands from me and doing exactly what some1 is demanding. "No ebon set? - noob tank" I'ts not my job to play this game and make fun for others I also want entertainment.
b) Leveling as tank - dear God just don't level as tank! It's literally not possible to have a decent experience while trying to be tank and doing quests. Yeah ok, I can crawl to lvl 10 and spam random dungs till 50. Cool, but what if I want to experience the open world, storyline, side quests as tank? I can't cuz it take ages to kill a single mob. Right I can swap my gear, do another skill set for an offtank build. But I do not want to be forced to do this. To carry different set in my bag just to have a chance of doing a normal open world quest in less then an hour. I didn't had to do this in wow, dcu or gw2. And before you ask NO - it's not fun/challenging it's plain stupid.
c) Absolutely not real, stupid, boring bash animations. ZOS devs, did they ever saw how a shield bash looks like? It's a hit! A powerfull, strike from which you can feel the force of the heavy impact. What I am doing in eso with my shield, gently stroking the cheeks? I know that games should not have full realistic combat system/physics (especially mmorpgs) but this bash move seems like I am trying to chase away the fly. Look on medievial type combat games how does the bashing and generally shield moves look. Watch how the knights fight with a shield. Devs - L E A R N... or hire me I'm a certified medieval swordsman
d) First when I saw the decision from eso devs that no aoe taunt will be included in game I was happy. "Yay something new!" I wondered how will they compansate the lack of it. Now I know - they don't. You can also cut off the runners leg and say " hey you are intented to run with one leg! I'ts more challenging! Now go and have fun." - srsly being oryginal does not mean you are better. As far as I can life without aoe taunt and understand that this game actually don't need it since tank should just focus on heavy hitters, the ways of single target taunt are poorly designed. "Oh I just move close and touch this mob gently with the tip of my sword, this will totaly turn him away from the burning meteor falling on his head every few secs" A scream/roar, grab, throw, HEAVY impact strike, *** anything but not such butter knife press. Second one - inner fire: I even do not know what the *** is this thing? A compressed air projectile? I spit on mob so he gets angry? This thing is barely visible, without addon I don't even know if I hit that mob or not. Ice staff was removed from the game so... heavy attack single target taunt... right.
e) Lack of visual aspects of being a tank. I miss simple cosmetic aspects of tanking like: Trembling ground, roars (like Xal-Nur have), heavy looking dashes, pushing away mobs/ throws, making character bigger by rage or something (yes I know it's not WoW and such things are not lore-friendly, but so are 12832 world saviours in one town). I like the feeling of being the walking mountain of steel, but there is no such chance in eso.

2 - Tanks are not needed in most of the content So tank sucks in open world quests, ok let's see what do we have more:
a) dungeons? - Nope we prefer to have another dps. But hey! pug in for random and pray to have about 10k dps in total or else you are stuck in there for hours. But hey we are not supposed to have damage right? There is a tradeoff between damage and survivability so it's fine *cough* magdps shields *cough* Btw about 4/5 of my random dungs (as healer or dd) I have fake tanks. And actually I do not mind them. It's a common thing to wait 30-40minutes as dps for a random dung. Would be better if for every 1 tank there would not be 50 dpses waiting in queue.
b) Public dungeons, craglorn delves? - Nope dps only. Maybe healer.
c) vMA Raname it to dps only arena.
d) vetTrials - okay! And this is a place where you need a tank! Real and the only possible combination of alkosh/ebon with precisely defined skills to make the run fun for dps. Team wipe? Noob tank!
e) No point in boosting your health/defence if so many things can one shot you. Magsorc can survive similar level of punishment so... what's the point?

AHAAHAHHAHAH shield bash yeah, not the most important thing but u r absolutely right; it's more a "shield gentle push" that could barely make someone's nose bleed (at best).

The need for tanks IS unbalanced in this game, that's why you can find so many "fake tanks" out there when going for random group. Sometime these fake tanks goes for a vet random, find themself in CoS/RoM etc. and we all know what happens then.

I could play dead in 90% Vets n my group could barely notice then there are situation where tanks are needed and find some glory (vDSA, MoL, HoF, CR are instances) but probably they lack the experience to do so because the game has never prepare them for such a task.

Tanking is too easy in some situations; a DD can change some skills n become a decent tank for most Dungeon; An healer can do the same to tank and/or deal some damage as well while a tank can only tank.

I do think that most of this problem comes from blocking:

let's say i give a "punch" of 10 k Tot. Damage to a random DD with resistances 'round 10k both; that would mean that he would gets 'round 8.500 damage; he can usually ignore the hit thanks to a much bigger dmg shield (and a PvE tank DO NOT hit for 10K) but ler's pretend this guy has no shiel BUT block the attack= he gets a 50'% dmg discount so he gets 8500-4250= 4250 Damage received.

If I (tank with capped resistancs) receive the same hits i could block or not with the following results:

10k - 50%= 5000 damage received when not blocking
5000-75%= 1250 damage received

As we can see we have a supposely squishy DPS which can absorb more damage than us if he's blocking n we are not and the most funny part is that he can have a 20k recastable damage shield on:

Our real strenght comes from blocking (u nerfed that by making it more expensive in Dragonbones and now we use shield play enchants n maybe some sturdy piece of armor

) AND THAT IS BAD. We should block only hard-hitting attacks, maybe get a debuff on enemy (boss included) if we do so (like it happens with normal monsters when they heavy attack and u block) with a correct timing.

A Knight's shield is a weapon as much as a sword, not a thing where to hide behind from ugly monsters for the whole time.

Also CP Allocation is a probem: everything works in percentage, why is that a problem? I'll show:

A DD have lil use of the warrior constellation so he's probably going to put everything in resistances like ironclad (let's say he hits a 20% damage reduction from this)

A tank can do the same.

basic direct damage hit=10k

- unblocking naked person with no 0 physical/magical resistance gets 8k ( 10k -20% from ironclad).
- unblocking tank in full heavy with capped resistances = 10k -5k (res) -20%= 4k

Result:
DD point are better spent (ironclad absorbed 2k instead of 1k) 'cause he has less layers of resistances n his points are giving out more returns that us. the basic rule is "The higher one resistance is, the less u receive from all others"

When it come to dealing damage (opposite skill is master-at-arms):

DD base damage 10k with a 20% bonus from master= 15k

Tank Base hit a whoopy 3k with a 20% bonus= 3,6 k

That's why there is also little difference between 450-750 Tanks but a huge one between 450-750 DPS (and this is a problem for non capped player as well i think since they struggle to find place in vet things)

Narvuntien · June 2018

Excellent points... the damage prevention in the game makes having lots of damage prevention... a disadvantage.

re-enfornced/nirnhoned isn't anywhere as good as having a cheaper block cost, everything is built around blocking the least interesting thing about tanking, when tanks should actually just take the hits and do things.. but we can't risk getting one shot or knocked across the room or having to break free (costing stamina), particularly when you are learning to tank.

Minor Aegis isn't useful, protection isn't great... all this stuff that is on these tank sets and skills that don't actually help you get much more tanky... because its all about blocking..

Noldornir · June 2018

Minor Aegis is going to give a tank an actual 2.5% (if he has no CP and max resistances)

If u put a damage shield on it's even worst, DKs like me are using shields for:

1) Getting stamina back from helping hands
2) protecting allies (not in trials since that's a way too low shield and they SHOULD have their always on)

Note that shields absorb damage BEFORE resistances are applied so my shields are just as resistant as any glass cannon ones (but the glass cannon will have much a bigger shield).

e) No point in boosting your health/defence if so many things can one shot you.

Magicka Pool= raise mag-based damage
Stamina Pool= raise stam-based damage
Health= raise health only

now an Attribute point gives u the following:

Mag= 111 pts + more power (mag based skills)
Stam= 111 pts + more power (stam based skills)
Health= 122 pts + nothing

We can see that putting something in health gives u a lil more pool than stam/mag (but not more power or anything else), why is that? First of all as a tank I NEED some points in stam n mag (which is actually cool everyone should tune chars imho not just "put everything there") I actually aim for 20k in both with a lil extra stam while the rest goes to health.

I don't like the way protection works at all (perc. based; it's silly really; if a throw a stone at me i Get 1 damage instead of 2 but that should just be deflected by armor while i couldn't halve a 100k catapult stone thrown at me

).

Ever thought about removing res caps n redesign how they works?

As an instance you ignore X amount of pain every Y point in resistance.

Block should be more tactical/situational and that could actually happen in this way

commdt · June 2018

Tanking in ESO is a paradox. It is too easy to endure damage and sustain, so tanks take another roles of buffing/debuffing/supporting not to be useless in a group. And true tanks are artists, so theres no limits in how hard tank role can become. And obviously all groups consider these tank functions as a must, so all of them want a true tank, even if they dont manage their own roles.
On the other hand for many people it is too hard to be a true tank (for someone in this thread it is even hard to endure damage) so we see less and less tanks in the game, at least good tanks.

Personally, Im fine with buffing/debuffing as a tank, I like to be useful and make encounters more easy for my group and thus for me. And there are many good sets useful for both tank and a group, like Ebon, Dragon and Jorvuld. The only thing I hate is Alcosh. Yes I wear it because it is a huge help, but it just feels wrong

TankHealz2015 · June 2018

I copy pasted other people's comments that I appreciate the most.

killing things quicker is almost always a better option to surviving than trying to sustain against a group of mobs.

THAT SAID... I'd like to see more diversity among tanks and for the role to become about truly tanking. Seeing Torug overtake Alkosh for dungeons was great, but there's still no reason to wear sets with resistance. Atm, tanks feel like defensive supports. Sure you hold the boss, but you're mostly there to buff the dps.

This is true feeling. I hate: Sure you hold the boss, but you're mostly there to buff the dps.

True: Trials, Vets n so on are good actually 'cause tank have a lot of things to do but have u ever tanked Vet WGT with a low DPS team? There, as tank, u basically have to hope they'll end it before nightfall.

I love the diversity and awesomeness of all the tanking armor sets.... but for the hardest group content, you must wear DPS boosting armor set instead. and this sucks.

I really don't want to see the trend continue where bosses can one-shot tanks through block and force them to dodge roll instead on every single heavy attack

Also diminished returns from multiple sources of protection sucks, math tells that this is good when DEALING damage while it's crap while Absorbing it.

To put it simpler; on easier content a good DPS/healer can do my job while I can't (do their job)

2 - Tanks are not needed in most of the content So tank sucks in open world quests, ok let's see what do we have more:
a) dungeons? - Nope we prefer to have another dps. But hey! pug in for random and pray to have about 10k dps in total or else you are stuck in there for hours. But hey we are not supposed to have damage right? There is a tradeoff between damage and survivability so it's fine *cough* magdps shields *cough* Btw about 4/5 of my random dungs (as healer or dd) I have fake tanks. And actually I do not mind them. It's a common thing to wait 30-40minutes as dps for a random dung. Would be better if for every 1 tank there would not be 50 dpses waiting in queue.
b) Public dungeons, craglorn delves? - Nope dps only. Maybe healer.
c) vMA

Raname it to dps only arena.
d) vetTrials - okay! And this is a place where you need a tank! Real and the only possible combination of alkosh/ebon with precisely defined skills to make the run fun for dps. Team wipe? Noob tank!
e) No point in boosting your health/defence if so many things can one shot you. Magsorc can survive similar level of punishment so... what's the point?

Seriously, that's the reason I wish Alkosh was nerfed along with Sunderflame and Nightmother's Gaze. I'd love to aid the group, but by doing my role properly, not by making it easier for someone who the devs bend over backwards to accommodate already.

What if the mechanics were such that EVERYONE in the group had to build for boosting their resistances?

Resistances should be "needed" for survival.

Enrif · June 2018

Well i'm only a noob tank and didn't tanked anything besided a few random normal dungeons.
But i tanked in other games and i bring in here my 2 points.

Health is not a Resource, but is treated as such. There is only one skill i found that actually scales with health(a warden one) But when i looked at the morphs the one that scales of magika does more damage with no investment, then the health one with nearly full investment. This doesn't make sense.
In other words my point would be..

1. Make skills/morphs damage scale of Health pools while having 5 or more pieces of heavy armor equipped.
It could be build in a passive in the heavy armor line
This should make it more satisfying to use those skills as a tank, while not giving the DPS a tool to deal great Damage AND be unkillable as it requires to sacrifice the passives of light/medium armor and the resource pools of magika/stamina.

Another point would be to look at the block mechanic, the S&B Skill line and the Frost staff.
I specially choose a warden to be my tank since it has the greatest synergy with the frost staff tanking. But thats a problem, no other class really benefits from a Frost Staff to be the tank weapon, while all can benefit from S&B

Thus my second point would be
2. Remove tanking from Destruction Staff
My suggestion would be to pool it with the Restoration Staff instead. I read here some one suggested Alteration Staff as tanking, and that sounded great. This way Restoration and Alteration would deal non elemental damage, thus any class could use it. While the passives can cater to restoration(healing) and alteration(tanking) needs. Maybe even offering a Tank/Healer Hybrid option for those interested in this stuff.

raj72616a · June 2018

i agree with the post saying that one shot heavy attack mechanics is a problem in dungeons.

give us a skill or a passive with cooldown time, to survive blocking dodgeable attack from monster with 1 point of health left please?

Osubaker33 · June 2018

Agree with what what many others have said, the game needs to shift ALOT further away from blocking. It needs to be something you do on rare occation to stop the REALLY big hits.

Your armor is what should be saving you from normal hits and high resistance in COMBINATION with blocking should be the only way to survive the huge hits from Bosses.

My suggestions.

Increase the cap on resistances to 75% and make it so you need in the 70-75% range to survive Vet content as a TANK. Getting to this higher cap would be hard and would require *gasp* wearing gear like chudan's , pariah, etc. Increase the resistance bonus for wearing a shield and the resistance a shield offers.

Change the way blocking works. Instead of stamina drained per hit. Change it to stamina drained per second blocking. Ideally id like to see it be impossable to hold block for more than 10 seconds or so at a time. Lower the timer on how low it takes for stamina to start regening again after block to .5 seconds.

Remove class passive bonuses to block and change it to passive bonuses to Resistances. Blocking should just be 50% for everyone except sword and shield which should be 75%.

Significantly increase the damage Vet bosses do to compensate for these changes. A tank with 75% resistance and blocking with sword and board should never be one shot however assuming they have at least 40k health. The healer does need to keep them near full or they will be however.

Lower the penetration on Alkosh to 2500. Maybe increase its damage slightly to compensate. Increase the base penetration on Crusher by 500.

These changes would also have the added benefit of making healers more needed again!!!

TheGr8David · June 2018

I agree with @WhiteNoiseMaker in part.

I understand why Ebon and other sets and skills are BIS for the Vet Trials and other end game content, but I think that as a result the Tank class has been stapled to that "DPS support" class for pretty much all PvE content. Honestly I would like to see changes to many of the Tanking sets in the game to give set effects that are actually useful and synergize well with the Tank's skills.

Examples:

A set that spreads the "Taunt" debuff to adjacent enemies, giving the off-tank in Trials more of a defined role for CC as opposed to "not the main tank".
A set that makes Taunted enemies do less damage to the Tank or alternatively less damage to other players.

These are just two ideas with, admittedly, little thought put into them, but it's clear that there are very few sets for tanking that are of any real use, and I think it's because many of the current sets lack a five set bonus that has enough of an effect in battle to be of any consistent use outside of ROA, Ebon, and Torug.

I would love to see a version of the Hand of Mephala Set that is actually useful. Why would we need a 10% chance to cast a web for 5 seconds when we could use talons or caltrops?

Maura_Neysa · June 2018

josiahva wrote: »

Dedricus wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

^^ I agree with Whitenoisemaker 100%. I love to tank...but I rarely if ever tank trials. Why? Because I am told I have to wear that garbage Ebon set, use this and that ability, etc. There is absolutely no reason for me to tank trials when I cant play my build, but instead have to play someone else's build entirely.

1. Ebon is God's gift to tanks. Utility and Self defense in one? Hell yeah.

2.You can do just about anything you want in normal trials. Past that, you start getting into competitive end game where your build matters. No game is going to let you have free reign over what to do at their highest level of difficulty. That's why it's called the meta, and that's why people follow it. WoW, GW2, and even here. High end raids require you to utilize optimal performance.

THAT SAID... I'd like to see more diversity among tanks and for the role to become about truly tanking. Seeing Torug overtake Alkosh for dungeons was great, but there's still no reason to wear sets with resistance. Atm, tanks feel like defensive supports. Sure you hold the boss, but you're mostly there to buff the dps.

Sorry, Ebon IS garbage...yes, it benefits everyone...gives them a WHOPPING 5% more health. Just how often do you survive if you are taken down to 5% health? Check your kills in PvP for under 5% health...that should tell you how often 5% is going to make any difference at all to your survivability. You know what set is better? JUST ABOUT ANY SET. I myself like Imperium...a 16k shield(even with its short duration) is better. Seducer with its buff to magicka regen is better...means I can cast igneous more often. Knightmare with its minor maim is better...reducing damage from all enemies in 8 meters by 15%. Alteration mastery is better....Powerful Assault is better....ANY set is better 5% health makes no difference 99.999% of the time...that's the truth. There are many sets that will boost group utility in one way or another...all Ebon does is make DPS think they are more likely to survive...but its a lie...if you are under 5% health, you are going to die anyway because you are taking too much damage to begin with. Ebon is a mental crutch for DPS to feel better. If you are relying on the tank running Ebon to survive, you need to learn to take better care of yourself.

Actually the difference between 16k health and 18k is the difference in almost all 1-Shot mechanics in PvE, i.e. Varlariel vAA one copy still up. Popping a mine, Mage vAA
A DPS running an extra 2k in there Mag/Stam is easily 2-3k DPS so its actually kind of huge. Hence why its meta. Meta is still speed over survival so until that changes.

IwakuraLain42 · June 2018

raj72616a wrote: »

i agree with the post saying that one shot heavy attack mechanics is a problem in dungeons.

give us a skill or a passive with cooldown time, to survive blocking dodgeable attack from monster with 1 point of health left please?

... and call it Holmgang or Living Dead ? (FF14 reference where there these anti-tankbuster skills). But seriously this is problematic as it requires the healer to be able to heal the tank back up before the next hit arrives. This does not work with the really bad friendly targeting we have in this game.

Noldornir · June 2018

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Agree with what what many others have said, the game needs to shift ALOT further away from blocking. It needs to be something you do on rare occation to stop the REALLY big hits.

Your armor is what should be saving you from normal hits and high resistance in COMBINATION with blocking should be the only way to survive the huge hits from Bosses.

My suggestions.

Increase the cap on resistances to 75% and make it so you need in the 70-75% range to survive Vet content as a TANK. Getting to this higher cap would be hard and would require *gasp* wearing gear like chudan's , pariah, etc. Increase the resistance bonus for wearing a shield and the resistance a shield offers.

Very good idea, not sure 'bout the percentage or if it's better to redesign mech but this could be a faster way (maybe with some adjusting on these new percs on PTS)

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Change the way blocking works. Instead of stamina drained per hit. Change it to stamina drained per second blocking. Ideally id like to see it be impossable to hold block for more than 10 seconds or so at a time. Lower the timer on how low it takes for stamina to start regening again after block to .5 seconds.

I see and share your point but would fix like this:

Keep the stamDrain/hit but adjust it so that the bigger the hit the bigger the drain (blocking a huge blow should be hardest than little ones
Greatly increase the block cost/hit (while raising the resistance cap as told before)

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Remove class passive bonuses to block and change it to passive bonuses to Resistances. Blocking should just be 50% for everyone except sword and shield which should be 75%.

Agreed

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Significantly increase the damage Vet bosses do to compensate for these changes. A tank with 75% resistance and blocking with sword and board should never be one shot however assuming they have at least 40k health. The healer does need to keep them near full or they will be however.

Lower the penetration on Alkosh to 2500. Maybe increase its damage slightly to compensate. Increase the base penetration on Crusher by 500.

These changes would also have the added benefit of making healers more needed again!!!

Once again not sure about numbers but they do look cool on paper.

I'd REALLY like to see these things n test them and i talk as a main tank (like i've ever been in all the games i did)

xI_The_Owl_Ix · June 2018

Sorry, but I have to disagree with a lot of the suggestions in here.

People saying tanking is boring/easy/only perma blocking are probably Dragonknight Tanks. Then I would have to agree. I played a Dragonknight Tank and it was boring and I felt like I wasnt doing anything except blocking and being unbeatable. Thats why I barely played my DK tank.
But this thread is about Tanking in general and not only about Dragonknights.

I main a Nightblade Tank and I love it. Its challenging but fun. But if you would listen to a lot of these posts here my NB Tank would get nerfed into oblivion, making it unplayable.
Nightblade Tanks dont have an AoE root or good resource management, which means I have to pay attention to ads and my stamina bar.
I have to heavy attack a lot to gain stamina back and time them well so I dont get 1 hit.
People are talking about block cost increase. Now if you look at DKs passive, they get a 8% block cost reduction. NBs dont have anything like that.

My point being: dont make suggestions solely based of Dragonknight tanking. DKs have a lot of passive and active Skills which makes tanking easier. If you would make changes to tanking in general based of Dragonknight tanks it could destroy every other class.

If you want to play a challenging tank, make yourself a tank that isnt a DK. Or make suggestions that could be applied to every other class without ruining it.

BejaProphet · June 2018

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Agree with what what many others have said, the game needs to shift ALOT further away from blocking. It needs to be something you do on rare occation to stop the REALLY big hits.

Your armor is what should be saving you from normal hits and high resistance in COMBINATION with blocking should be the only way to survive the huge hits from Bosses.

My suggestions.

Increase the cap on resistances to 75% and make it so you need in the 70-75% range to survive Vet content as a TANK. Getting to this higher cap would be hard and would require *gasp* wearing gear like chudan's , pariah, etc. Increase the resistance bonus for wearing a shield and the resistance a shield offers.

@Osubaker33
What if I told you this is basically the case already? My cumulative mitigation after stacking is slightly over 68% while I'm just standing there. When minor maim is factored in its over 70% total cumulative mitigation.

Here is a site that calculates it for you. https://jscalc.io/calc/fiasVNPSGsOdmsF6

And do you know what happens when you combine 70% cumulative mitigation to 45k max health? Exactly what YOU predicted and are requesting. I watch mechanics and I only block the big hits. Dynamic blocking exists. But to get it, you have to stop listening to people who say resistances and other mitigation are worthless.

By the way, its extremely fun that way too.

WhiteNoiseMaker · June 2018

I'm going to chime in rather in a kind of a for/against BajaProphet's above post.

When I first started tanking, I loved the feeling of being nigh-invulnerable (like the Tick). I didn't block all the time, but over each successive bit of harder content I felt pressured to block, block, more and more... until I had turned into an almost permablocker.

The game has made us into this. It used to be that 25-28K health was the go-to benchmark, I slowly kept up with the health inflation up to about 33K, but now you have people on this thread suggesting that 40K is the bare minimum! Mitigation used to be strong, until it wasn't... Blocking used to be the thing you did when you NEEDED it for that one big incoming attack. Now... everything one-shots you unless you block through it, and now sometimes it still one-shots you.

I'm really just sick and tired of my role being enslaved and rendered meaningless...

xI_The_Owl_Ix · June 2018

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I'm going to chime in rather in a kind of a for/against BajaProphet's above post.

When I first started tanking, I loved the feeling of being nigh-invulnerable (like the Tick). I didn't block all the time, but over each successive bit of harder content I felt pressured to block, block, more and more... until I had turned into an almost permablocker.

The game has made us into this. It used to be that 25-28K health was the go-to benchmark, I slowly kept up with the health inflation up to about 33K, but now you have people on this thread suggesting that 40K is the bare minimum! Mitigation used to be strong, until it wasn't... Blocking used to be the thing you did when you NEEDED it for that one big incoming attack. Now... everything one-shots you unless you block through it, and now sometimes it still one-shots you.

I'm really just sick and tired of my role being enslaved and rendered meaningless...

I dont really get your point, are you implying that doing nothing while fighting a boss is more challenging than permablocking and managing your resources during a boss fight?

White wabbit · June 2018

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Sorry, but I have to disagree with a lot of the suggestions in here.

People saying tanking is boring/easy/only perma blocking are probably Dragonknight Tanks. Then I would have to agree. I played a Dragonknight Tank and it was boring and I felt like I wasnt doing anything except blocking and being unbeatable. Thats why I barely played my DK tank.
But this thread is about Tanking in general and not only about Dragonknights.

I main a Nightblade Tank and I love it. Its challenging but fun. But if you would listen to a lot of these posts here my NB Tank would get nerfed into oblivion, making it unplayable.
Nightblade Tanks dont have an AoE root or good resource management, which means I have to pay attention to ads and my stamina bar.
I have to heavy attack a lot to gain stamina back and time them well so I dont get 1 hit.
People are talking about block cost increase. Now if you look at DKs passive, they get a 8% block cost reduction. NBs dont have anything like that.

My point being: dont make suggestions solely based of Dragonknight tanking. DKs have a lot of passive and active Skills which makes tanking easier. If you would make changes to tanking in general based of Dragonknight tanks it could destroy every other class.

If you want to play a challenging tank, make yourself a tank that isnt a DK. Or make suggestions that could be applied to every other class without ruining it.

Yeah personally think you should be able to tank on any class and have the skills to do so

BejaProphet · June 2018

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I'm going to chime in rather in a kind of a for/against BajaProphet's above post.

When I first started tanking, I loved the feeling of being nigh-invulnerable (like the Tick). I didn't block all the time, but over each successive bit of harder content I felt pressured to block, block, more and more... until I had turned into an almost permablocker.

The game has made us into this. It used to be that 25-28K health was the go-to benchmark, I slowly kept up with the health inflation up to about 33K, but now you have people on this thread suggesting that 40K is the bare minimum! Mitigation used to be strong, until it wasn't... Blocking used to be the thing you did when you NEEDED it for that one big incoming attack. Now... everything one-shots you unless you block through it, and now sometimes it still one-shots you.

I'm really just sick and tired of my role being enslaved and rendered meaningless...

What it sounds like you are saying is that you want tanks to be necessary for content as opposed to an extra damage dealer, but you don't want it to require you to be a tank? How does the serious need for somebody who can take a BIG hit render the tank role meaningless?

The game hasn't made us perma-blockers. The game is doing everything it can to stop us from being a perma-blocker. It keeps punishing it more and more. The advice from all the "leet dudes" are turning us into perma-blockers because they keep telling you not to build a tank. The keep giving you build advice that they use when they have two dedicated trial healers (built for pure healing) constantly spamming heals on them. I don't perma-block in any of the vet DLC dungeons, nor do I shield spam. I just tank. But to do that you need to be a tank.

What you are experiencing is ironically the thing for which you are all asking. The game is demanding a real tank. Not somebody with a taunt slotted, not a third of fourth damage dealer, not a hybrid, but a real honest to goodness tank that can take the big hits, grin, and ask for another.

Mojmir · June 2018

Shield bash damage should scale with health lol