Stop nerfing PvE for PvP "balance"

Doctordarkspawn · May 2018

Been saying it for years.

This game tried to be a PVP game *and met the fate of all PVP games. Adapt or die. PVP isn't enough to carry an MMO.*

But now the entire games balanced around it, and it just does not work.

AlienatedGoat · May 2018

AuldWolf wrote: »

I've spoken about this elsewhere. When I explained difficulty creep and how it killed a big number of MMOs (like Champions Online and Wildstar) along with a number of promising online multiplayer games (like Battleborn).

Difficulty Creep:

Hardcore Players: Make the game Harder!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: More purple loot! I want to feel more badarse!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: The game is too easy, now! The purples made it too easy! I have so many numbers! Make it Harder!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: The difficulty is good but the rewards aren't worth it, add better elite drops!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: The game is too easy now, make the game more difficult to suit this gear I've grinded for!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: I love this difficulty! But I feel unrewarded. REWARD ME! More epic drops! More epic! Bigger numbers!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: I can sleepwalk through content, now. Make the game Harder!
Developer: Okay!
Casual Players: We can't play this, now. The base game has become impossible to play! You have to spend your life grinding the stuff right at the beginning to get even slight viability. We can't play it any more. We're all going to leave, now.
Developer: Oh no! Why is our game failing? Where did 95 per cent of our community go? It's a mystery! We'll never figure it out!

A lot of my favourite games died that way.

Basically, trying to appeal to people who want a harder game kills your game. Studies have shown that in the vast, vast majority of MMOs, hardcore players make up only 5~ per cent of the player base, PvP players make up only 1~ per cent (or less), and the biggest demographic is casual players. The biggest number there is people who group in teams of 2-3 (mostly duos), followed by solo players. It might be a truth that MMO developers don't want to hear, but that's only because they're old guard and they have this idea of what an MMO is which is outdated.

For the most part, ESO is modern. It's casual, fun, story-focused, and it doesn't have difficulty creep brought about by trying to appease hardcore and PvP players. But doing stuff like nerfing PvE to balance PvP is.. Sigh. They should split up PvE and PvP balancing.

And they should learn to understand that most people don't want a stressful, anxiety-laden game. They want fun.

The majority play for the story arcs, the fun gameplay, and the collectibles. They roll alts all the time. By making the game more difficult, you make it less desirable to the largest demographic. That's how MMOs die.

I can't want for MMO developers to realise that.

Instead of, you know, killing their own games which happen to be games I liked.

Eesh, too much bold.

I don't really want to detract from the thread topic by bringing in difficulty or power creep. Frankly, we need harder difficulty modes for everything, so everyone will be happy.

As ideal as separate "balancing" of PvE and PvP is, it's a pipe dream. This game isn't structured to allow for it.

One thing that can be done, however, is for ZOS to stop "balancing" the game with PvP as the frame of reference for PvE. If a set or skill overperforms in either, there are ways to nerf it in one while minimally affecting the other.

They've done it before, like when they nerfed Eye of the Storm but left Rage untouched. For whatever reason, they can't seem to stick with it. Like when they revisited Eye of the Storm and decided to reduce the radius on both morphs.

It's that kind of *** that drives me crazy. ZOS knows what they need to do, they just don't do it.

MajBludd · May 2018

I don't follow the meta and I do fine. So, I guess it is possible to play the way you want.

AlienatedGoat · May 2018

MajBludd wrote: »

I don't follow the mets and I do fine. So, I guess it is possible to play the way you want.

That's a pretty broad statement. Do you do trials? Do you do progression runs for leaderboards?

"Playing the way you want" means just that. Playing the way you want.

Not necessarily how I want.

Playing the way I want means abiding by meta setups if you want to be competitive. The only way that will change is if alternative setups become more competitive themselves.

MajBludd · May 2018

Nope I find repeating content boring as hell. I pvp, I don't and have never followed the meta.

AlienatedGoat · May 2018

MajBludd wrote: »

Nope I find repeating content boring as hell. I pvp, I don't and have never followed the meta.

Then you're not the intended audience for this thread. I'm not talking about PvP meta here.

Elara_Northwind · May 2018

I have always been more of a pvp person than a pve one, beause the majority of pve I find mind numbingly easy, but that said, the nerfs are crazy! I failed vma tonight on my templar, because it got too late to carry on, and she had flawless conqueror a year ago! Granted, I've not tried it in a few months, but my sorcerer can still do it fine! Poor Elara is broken

MajBludd · May 2018

Why chase the meta? Build your own build

AlienatedGoat · May 2018

MajBludd wrote: »

Why chase the meta? Build your own build

If you don't do endgame PvE, you won't understand. You can't compete against meta builds. It's not like PvP where you can find a niche and fill it.

Rianai · May 2018

Maybe it would help to provide actual examples and suggestions instead of general claims that might be based on wrong assumptions.

MajBludd · May 2018

What are you competing against, time, a score?

Kali_Despoine · May 2018

MajBludd wrote: »

Nope I find repeating content boring as hell. I pvp, I don't and have never followed the meta.

says he doesn't like repeating content but plays the biggest repeating content in the game.
oh look there's a keep.
oh look there's a keep. let's take it
oh look there's a keep. lets take it, then hit the resources.
oh look there's a keep. lets take it, then hit the resources. After that we'll move to the next keep

AlienatedGoat · May 2018

Rianai wrote: »

Maybe it would help to provide actual examples and suggestions instead of general claims that might be based on wrong assumptions.

I've provided some examples. Honestly, anyone who's played the game since at least Morrowind should have a good idea of what I'm referring to. From sustain nerfs back then (shift to heavy attacks for resources) to numerous set nerfs, nerfs on offbalance to nerfs on Stamwarden skills, there's so many examples, and many of them are high profile. Quite frankly, too many to name.

Anyone can look at competitive PvE and see that cookiecutter meta builds dominate. Like, literally dominate. The number of builds that are offmeta are like 1%.

For example, let's say you wanted to run a warden DD in competitive PvE.

Here's how that would go:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/407525/warden-representation-on-leader-boards/p1

It's actually worse now than it was then, since now shalks is nerfed.

An entire class is not viable in competitive endgame PvE, and nerfed even worse because of PvP.

I could go on, but I'd rather not. I'm just getting pissed.

MajBludd wrote: »

What are you competing against, time, a score?

I did say leaderboards.

xeNNNNN · May 2018

brandonv516 wrote: »

Agreed too. I only do PvP (PvE when I need something for PvP) and I wish the game was balanced seperately.

Balance vs getting a set for PvP is nonsense.

They can balance the game seperately but you will still likely have to go PvE for some things including sets and other such things.

There are a lot of sets that can work in both pve and pvp.

Rianai · May 2018

The only example you provided was Destro Ult, which is still a decent ultimate in PvE, so the nerfs - even if unneccessary - didn't change much.

See, and that's what i meant with "wrong assumptions".

Sustain changes happend because of PvE too. Offbalance got buffed in PvP, so that can hardly be the reason for PvE specific nerfs. Most of the warden nerfs didn't affect PvE at all, and those that did (Sub Assault) barely affect PvP, so there is no reason to assume those nerfs happened because of PvP. And idk what sets you are talking about.

Isojukka · May 2018

Drachenfier wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

First of all, "balance" is a myth.

Second, I'm so tired of seeing ZOS chase PvP "balance" and leave a trail of destruction behind in PvE because of it. Great skills have been nerfed into the ground where they are unused in PvE. Others have had needless nerfs that could have been separate from PvP nerfs (like the Elemental Rage radius nerf). So many great sets that could be used in endgame PvE end up in the garbage heap because they were nerfed for PvP.

I know it's difficult to "balance" PvE and PvP separately, but is it too much to ask that ZOS be more mindful of endgame PvE when they "balance" PvP? Is it too difficult to ensure that sets/skills/etc still remain viable in endgame PvE before they nerf it? They say that they want increased build variety. Can ZOS seriously not see that when they continually nerf alternative skills/sets/etc significantly below accepted meta sets, they do the exact opposite?

Am I alone in thinking this?

Can't be that difficult, EQ2 was doing it as far back as 2005

Is that a mobile game?

Troneon · May 2018

My Magicka Templar agrees with you.

BaneOfBattler · May 2018

Im so happy to see the pve/pvp community together discussing the nerfs.

this is a truly magical moment to remember, zos doesnt know how to handle the balance so we all have to embrace it in different ways, we are all brothers!

for now on theres no me or they its us

and thats so cute

Iskras · May 2018

PVP dont have any 'balance'...

Jameliel · May 2018

Stop nerfing at all.

IsharaMeradin · May 2018

Why can't there simply be additional morphs to each of the skills? Basically, PVP morphs and PVE morphs. That way, they can tweak the morphs to what works best for the given content. If they don't want to change how many morphs per skill, then have each morph have two separate skills. One that works only in PVE and one that works only in PVP. Would keep the two separate for skill balancing purposes.

Tannus15 · May 2018

As I get better at PvE I realise how many of these "PvP" nerfs are honestly for PvE.

Expect some significant nerfs in the next update. My DPS has shot up from 33k to 38k with the same setup and rotation this update, and I'm not the only one seeing this in my guild and it's not isolated to one class.

That said, I LOVE this update

Knootewoot · May 2018

I think @Zos shouldn't hold back PvP balancing by sparing PvE. PvE is already to easy so nerfs should happen.

Group dungeons in Summerset feel like solo dungeons. I though i fought a normal boss. After solo it said "group encounter done" or something. Even 4 out of 6 world bosses i solo'd.

My new character doesn't even have his CP distributed just so i can have a bit of challenging content overland.

To make raids "harder" Zos just gives bosses a bigger healthpool so people want more DPS. Instead of defeating clever mechanics it's a dps-race where people want to to be over with quick.

So nerf / balance sets/skills and give bosses lower health pool so it does't feel like an eternity to cut them down. I need no gold for this solution, just some tempers please.

Feanor · May 2018

The PvE players should be glad PvP still exists. Otherwise you’d have no one to blame for your own failures. Scapegoats are handy.

(“You know, I’d totally break 30k DPS if not for all these nerfs because of PvP...”)

XxCaLxX · May 2018

Wait. Molag Kena has no forum account?

AlienatedGoat · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

The PvE players should be glad PvP still exists. Otherwise you’d have no one to blame for your own failures. Scapegoats are handy.

(“You know, I’d totally break 30k DPS if not for all these nerfs because of PvP...”)

What does this have to do with my thread? I'm not trashing PvP. I'm asking why ZOS isn't more mindful about making alternative setups more viable in PvE when making nerfs in PvP.

templesus · May 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Lol tell that to my stamplar. You haven't seen a single nerf to stamplar in pve due to pvp, but on the other hand we've been decimated (loss of major mending due to attempt to balance pve healers) in pvp due to pve.

Heck, even just with this patch Mechanical Acuity which was a good set in PvP was absolutely destroyed for any pvp build because of the nerf aimed at creating build diversity in PvE - - which didnt even happen because siroria and reloquen are just going to replace it.

Who needs Major Mending in PvE ? Major mending was taken away from templars mainly because of PvP BoL spammers and fact how easily obtainable that passive is.

As for Siroria and Relequen people overestimate this 2 sets based on skeleton parses. Both sets are loosing their potential in any fight where group has to move or it's impossible to use weapon attack for longer then 5 seconds because of mechanics.

Sacred Ground: This passive ability now grants Minor Mending instead of Major Mending when you are standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage areas of effect.
Developer Comments:
With a similar goal to reducing uptime on Major Mending as noted with the Igneous Shield change, Templars having 100% uptime on Major Mending by just standing within their areas of protection is stronger than we’d like and is one of the reasons they are the most desirable healer in endgame situations. We’ve changed the bonus to Minor Mending instead, but have increased the bonus from the Mending passive to compensate slightly.

Unless one wants to consider PvP “endgame” (which has already been discussed to be the most opposite in this very thread) this nerf was clearly targeting PvE healers.

As for your claim in regards to siroria and reloquen, that remains to be proven or refuted, time will tell.

Banana · May 2018

Seperate the two. Then start adjusting.

Stewart1874 · May 2018

I've been wondering if folk had considered pre-made classes you can select when going into PvP, they should't be as good as custom classes but should be better than a pure PvE set up. My thinking behind this is to engage more people in PvE as you'll be able to hold your own a bit better and be less.. well ***. I play PvE 99% of the time and will only venture into Cyrodil out of necessity.

I think it would make PvP much more accessible and enjoyable for all - as PvPers would have more folk to play with, bigger parties etc. and PvE'ers wouldn't need a full restructure or an independent character to actually play a significant portion of the game. If nothing else, add it to Battlegrounds and see how it goes!!

MajBludd · May 2018

Everything has, and most likely, will be nerfed at some point. They've been doing this for the last 3yrs I've played this game.

These threads have been made after every patch, update, dlc, chapter, etc. Get use to it, learn to adapt. That's all you can do, right?