Stop nerfing PvE for PvP "balance"

AlienatedGoat

First of all, "balance" is a myth.

Second, I'm so tired of seeing ZOS chase PvP "balance" and leave a trail of destruction behind in PvE because of it. Great skills have been nerfed into the ground where they are unused in PvE. Others have had needless nerfs that could have been separate from PvP nerfs (like the Elemental Rage radius nerf). So many great sets that could be used in endgame PvE end up in the garbage heap because they were nerfed for PvP.

I know it's difficult to "balance" PvE and PvP separately, but is it too much to ask that ZOS be more mindful of endgame PvE when they "balance" PvP? Is it too difficult to ensure that sets/skills/etc still remain competitively viable in endgame PvE before they nerf it?

They say that they want increased build variety. Can ZOS seriously not see that when they continually nerf alternative skills/sets/etc significantly below accepted meta skills/sets/etc, they do the exact opposite?

Am I alone in thinking this?

Minyassa

No, you're not. Drives me up a wall. I've JUST started to get my main toon the way I want him and now I have to recalculate everything because someone got their knickers in a twist about some PvP thing my armor does that does not have diddlysquat to do with me and how I use it.

Katahdin

I guess with so many people crying about PvE being too easy, they figure nerfing a few sets/skills will make it harder

VaranisArano

Hey anyone remember those horrible Morrowind nerfs? They were because of those horrible high sustain, high damage PVP tanks, right?

Right?

Yeah, the Morrowind nerfs were because ZOS wanted to balance PVP sustain amd damage.

They were also because PVE trials groups were ripping through ZOS' hardest content and calling it easy-peasy lemon-squeezy.

When PVP gets out of balance, it impacts PVPers. They complain. When PVE damage gets out of balance, the developers have to design whole new tiers of content that the average player has no hope of accomplishing. When PVE gets out of balance, its great for players but hugely impacts the development of the game for the designers.

ZOS didn't want to design whole new tiers of content. So they nerfed everyone across the board.

Dont ever think that PVE doesnt cause nerfs just because Molag Kena isn't posting on the forums about how fast dungeon groups kill her.

(And thats not even getting into how ZOS nerfs anything that's overused to keep people grinding for the new meta, horizontal progression, and chasing the carrot.)

Drachenfier

Phage wrote: »

First of all, "balance" is a myth.

Second, I'm so tired of seeing ZOS chase PvP "balance" and leave a trail of destruction behind in PvE because of it. Great skills have been nerfed into the ground where they are unused in PvE. Others have had needless nerfs that could have been separate from PvP nerfs (like the Elemental Rage radius nerf). So many great sets that could be used in endgame PvE end up in the garbage heap because they were nerfed for PvP.

I know it's difficult to "balance" PvE and PvP separately, but is it too much to ask that ZOS be more mindful of endgame PvE when they "balance" PvP? Is it too difficult to ensure that sets/skills/etc still remain viable in endgame PvE before they nerf it? They say that they want increased build variety. Can ZOS seriously not see that when they continually nerf alternative skills/sets/etc significantly below accepted meta sets, they do the exact opposite?

Am I alone in thinking this?

Can't be that difficult, EQ2 was doing it as far back as 2005

BohnT

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/394278/pve-pvp-nerfs#latest
read this post and stop rethink your point

Pangnirtung

You arent alone OP in feeling this way.

It seems that the vast majority of class changes/skills, etc. have all been to balance PVP.

Are the numbers supporting the PVP changes or is ZOS catering to a minority and affecting the rest of us needlessly?

LeagueTroll

Buff stamnb nerf magwarden, real pvp balance.

Chadak

Morrowind's nerfs to sustain made me quit ESO and play something else for a while just to clear my head of the disgust I felt, and still often feel, when I look at this game.

I really want to love ESO, but ZOS's absolute refusal to compartmentalize PvE and PvP away from eachother feels increasingly like trying to love driving a Model T in an increasingly modern era.

Yeah, I don't care if it's more difficult to do or something. I want that feature, and GW2's been getting most of my playtime of late because they offer action combat that I like (as does ESO), PvP that I like (which ESO has never and will never do) and PvE that I like (which ESO almost does except for that PvE is balanced for PvP and PvP is not balanced at all).

I'm sick beyond description, polite or otherwise, of 'balance'. I desperately want to personify the word and murder it, because just about everything that's damaged my enjoyment of game experiences across MMO's for umpteen frakken years has been in the name of 'balance'.

This sacred cow needs to not only be slaughtered and eaten, but never, ever put on a pedestal again.

VaranisArano

Pangnirtung wrote: »

You arent alone OP in feeling this way.

It seems that the vast majority of class changes/skills, etc. have all been to balance PVP.

Are the numbers supporting the PVP changes or is ZOS catering to a minority and affecting the rest of us needlessly?

The vast majority of changes are designed to shake up the meta and keep us adjusting our builds, chasing the meta class/gear/trait, and keep us grinding as a form of playing the game. That's true in PVP and PVE.

Tan9oSuccka

I wish they would balance separately. Until then.....

There’s no my or they.

We.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Yawn ...

Nerfs or buffs to PVE don’t matter unless it literally becomes impossible to do something, which it never has. The only issue now is that it may take you 10% longer to do a dungeon (that you’ve likely done 1,734 times already) and that will be over with once you grind whatever new thing you need to outpulse 0.009% more DPS. PVE is, and always has been, the root of all of this game’s balance issues. Molag Kena does not have a forum account to complain about how unfair the PVErs are.

Conversely PVP is a 24/7 balance test bed. If something is over performing there it’s plain out over performing and should get the nerf bat. If it in turn causes you to not be able to beat a boss you once could ... spoiler alert ... you were not as good at ESO as you thought you were.

I have never seen a group of less self aware people then PVErs who don’t understand that they are the reason why power creep is a problem.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Yawn ...

Nerfs or buffs to PVE don’t matter unless it literally becomes impossible to do something, which it never has. The only issue now is that it may take you 10% longer to do a dungeon (that you’ve likely done 1,734 times already) and that will be over with once you grind whatever new thing you need to outpulse 0.009% more DPS. PVE is, and always has been, the root of all of this game’s balance issues. Molag Kena does not have a forum account to complain about how unfair the PVErs are.

Conversely PVP is a 24/7 balance test bed. If something is over performing there it’s plain out over performing and should get the nerf bat. If it in turn causes you to not be able to beat a boss you once could ... spoiler alert ... you were not as good at ESO as you thought you were.

I have never seen a group of less self aware people then PVErs who don’t understand that they are the reason why power creep is a problem.

You left out the scenario where an average joe player who can do 20-25k suddenly finds themselves kicked from a group because they can only do 15-20k after a nerf.

You're only thinking in terms of the content element, not the players. And even within the content context, if your trial group was just barely getting through a Veteran encounter and overall dps suddenly takes a 10% hit, there goes your progression.

But no, balancing PvE around PvP has no consequences whatsoever, we're all whiny carebears

AlienatedGoat

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Yawn ...

Nerfs or buffs to PVE don’t matter unless it literally becomes impossible to do something, which it never has. The only issue now is that it may take you 10% longer to do a dungeon (that you’ve likely done 1,734 times already) and that will be over with once you grind whatever new thing you need to outpulse 0.009% more DPS. PVE is, and always has been, the root of all of this game’s balance issues. Molag Kena does not have a forum account to complain about how unfair the PVErs are.

Conversely PVP is a 24/7 balance test bed. If something is over performing there it’s plain out over performing and should get the nerf bat. If it in turn causes you to not be able to beat a boss you once could ... spoiler alert ... you were not as good at ESO as you thought you were.

I have never seen a group of less self aware people then PVErs who don’t understand that they are the reason why power creep is a problem.

You've missed the entire point of this post and set up a strawman instead of addressing my actual points. Nowhere in there did I complain about being underpowered, overpowered, or otherwise, nor did I place blame for "balance" issues on PvP or PvE. I also did not mention dungeons. I said endgame PvE. Most dungeons are hardly endgame.

I want PvE build variety. That, in turn, means that we need options that are just as attractive and useful as the accepted meta options.

That doesn't happen when all the good alternatives get nerfed well below meta options, because they "overperform" in PvP.

Your entire argument is completely off base from my OP. Did you even read it?

AlienatedGoat

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Yawn ...

Nerfs or buffs to PVE don’t matter unless it literally becomes impossible to do something, which it never has. The only issue now is that it may take you 10% longer to do a dungeon (that you’ve likely done 1,734 times already) and that will be over with once you grind whatever new thing you need to outpulse 0.009% more DPS. PVE is, and always has been, the root of all of this game’s balance issues. Molag Kena does not have a forum account to complain about how unfair the PVErs are.

Conversely PVP is a 24/7 balance test bed. If something is over performing there it’s plain out over performing and should get the nerf bat. If it in turn causes you to not be able to beat a boss you once could ... spoiler alert ... you were not as good at ESO as you thought you were.

I have never seen a group of less self aware people then PVErs who don’t understand that they are the reason why power creep is a problem.

You left out the scenario where an average joe player who can do 20-25k suddenly finds themselves kicked from a group because they can only do 15-20k after a nerf.

You're only thinking in terms of the content element, not the players. And even within the content context, if your trial group was just barely getting through a Veteran encounter and overall dps suddenly takes a 10% hit, there goes your progression.

But no, balancing PvE around PvP has no consequences whatsoever, we're all whiny carebears

It's a strawman argument.

Has nothing to do with my OP, where I was arguing for more build variety in PvE by being more mindful of PvE when doing PvP nerfs.

Sylosi

It's a good job PvP is never affected by PvE nerfs/buffs, oh wait...

It is also a good job ignorant players don't wrongly put many nerfs down to PvP that either are PvE nerfs or due to both PvE & PvP, oh wait...

A fine example of that being the sustain nerfs, seen so many times people blame PvP for that, when a big part of it was competent PvE players were at best able to trivialise mechanics or at worst able to bypass them completely on supposed "tough" content.

DuskMarine

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Yawn ...

Nerfs or buffs to PVE don’t matter unless it literally becomes impossible to do something, which it never has. The only issue now is that it may take you 10% longer to do a dungeon (that you’ve likely done 1,734 times already) and that will be over with once you grind whatever new thing you need to outpulse 0.009% more DPS. PVE is, and always has been, the root of all of this game’s balance issues. Molag Kena does not have a forum account to complain about how unfair the PVErs are.

Conversely PVP is a 24/7 balance test bed. If something is over performing there it’s plain out over performing and should get the nerf bat. If it in turn causes you to not be able to beat a boss you once could ... spoiler alert ... you were not as good at ESO as you thought you were.

I have never seen a group of less self aware people then PVErs who don’t understand that they are the reason why power creep is a problem.

power creep isnt a issue as the point to fix power creep is come out with harder content not nerfing stuff into the floor. to fix pvpers woes and screaming they have battle spirit they can use that to balance pvp without hurting pve in any way shape and form

DarkAedin

Soooo blockcasting magicka builds spamming aoe in pve scenarios. Pve tanks that never had to let go of block. Ever. Totally a pvp issue.

Weak minded indivuduals see "pvp ruins pve"
2 seconds of thought changes that statement to "pvp finds the glaring differences in ballance a lot quicker then pve does"

Horowonnoe

Phage wrote: »

First of all, "balance" is a myth.

Second, I'm so tired of seeing ZOS chase PvP "balance" and leave a trail of destruction behind in PvE because of it. Great skills have been nerfed into the ground where they are unused in PvE. Others have had needless nerfs that could have been separate from PvP nerfs (like the Elemental Rage radius nerf). So many great sets that could be used in endgame PvE end up in the garbage heap because they were nerfed for PvP.

I know it's difficult to "balance" PvE and PvP separately, but is it too much to ask that ZOS be more mindful of endgame PvE when they "balance" PvP? Is it too difficult to ensure that sets/skills/etc still remain viable in endgame PvE before they nerf it? They say that they want increased build variety. Can ZOS seriously not see that when they continually nerf alternative skills/sets/etc significantly below accepted meta sets, they do the exact opposite?

Am I alone in thinking this?

Weeeellll i mean... like... uh le DPS has gone up by a lot lot this patch. I mean by like really a lot.
Yeahh.....

xeNNNNN

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Yawn ...

Nerfs or buffs to PVE don’t matter unless it literally becomes impossible to do something, which it never has. The only issue now is that it may take you 10% longer to do a dungeon (that you’ve likely done 1,734 times already) and that will be over with once you grind whatever new thing you need to outpulse 0.009% more DPS. PVE is, and always has been, the root of all of this game’s balance issues. Molag Kena does not have a forum account to complain about how unfair the PVErs are.

Conversely PVP is a 24/7 balance test bed. If something is over performing there it’s plain out over performing and should get the nerf bat. If it in turn causes you to not be able to beat a boss you once could ... spoiler alert ... you were not as good at ESO as you thought you were.

I have never seen a group of less self aware people then PVErs who don’t understand that they are the reason why power creep is a problem.

You left out the scenario where an average joe player who can do 20-25k suddenly finds themselves kicked from a group because they can only do 15-20k after a nerf.

You're only thinking in terms of the content element, not the players. And even within the content context, if your trial group was just barely getting through a Veteran encounter and overall dps suddenly takes a 10% hit, there goes your progression.

But no, balancing PvE around PvP has no consequences whatsoever, we're all whiny carebears

Players being kicked is the result of arrogant and impatient players with egos far too big for their own good. This is not everyone of course but a lot of people in the group finder are.......unpleasant. At least from my own experience. This particular one isn't on ZoS for once its on the community.

"we cant have you here with only 20k DPS the dungeon will take an hour to complete"

^ I've actually seen this said too another player. Ridiculous.

Surely if your DPS is so high i.e 44k and such for any general dungeon barring one or two you can just carry them...a vast majority of the dungeons in the game are quick incredibly quick in fact so much so too the point that most dungeons even with 3 players only can compelete most of them in under 10 minutes with just 2 DPS doing 20-25k and a tank. Thats it. Or hell even just 3 DPS.

I hate the mentality of the PvP community sometimes many will decree that they are nice and kind but those same people will do exactly as I've described when grouped with their friends and they get a random...then they will whine and complain the moment it happens to them when they run solo.

it is very much a community issue that people need to resolve themselves mentally and between eachother without the usual BS.

Rain_Greyraven

It's just mind boggling to me.....the game launched with end game pretty much being PVP.

90% of TES players and a good percentage of MMO players told the devlopers it would fail.

And guess what? IT FAILED

But they still try to fix something that should have been a afterthought from the get go

At the expense of everyone else who plays.

AlienatedGoat

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

It's just mind boggling to me.....the game launched with end game pretty much being PVP.

90% of TES players and a good percentage of MMO players told the devlopers it would fail.

And guess what? IT FAILED

But they still try to fix something that should have been a afterthought from the get go

At the expense of everyone else who plays.

Agreed. Honestly though, it could've been worse. Firor wanted to make it even more like DAoC.

At this point, I honestly think they just don't want to admit failure.

I won't hate on it though. I know plenty of people who love to PvP in this game. To each their own.

I personally prefer small-scale PvP (Battlegrounds), but until the premade/PUG queues are split, I won't be able to enjoy myself there either.

templesus

Lol tell that to my stamplar. You haven't seen a single nerf to stamplar in pve due to pvp, but on the other hand we've been decimated (loss of major mending due to attempt to balance pve healers) in pvp due to pve.

Heck, even just with this patch Mechanical Acuity which was a good set in PvP was absolutely destroyed for any pvp build because of the nerf aimed at creating build diversity in PvE - - which didnt even happen because siroria and reloquen are just going to replace it.

Juhasow

templesus wrote: »

Lol tell that to my stamplar. You haven't seen a single nerf to stamplar in pve due to pvp, but on the other hand we've been decimated (loss of major mending due to attempt to balance pve healers) in pvp due to pve.

Heck, even just with this patch Mechanical Acuity which was a good set in PvP was absolutely destroyed for any pvp build because of the nerf aimed at creating build diversity in PvE - - which didnt even happen because siroria and reloquen are just going to replace it.

Who needs Major Mending in PvE ? Major mending was taken away from templars mainly because of PvP BoL spammers and fact how easily obtainable that passive is.

As for Siroria and Relequen people overestimate this 2 sets based on skeleton parses. Both sets are loosing their potential in any fight where group has to move or it's impossible to use weapon attack for longer then 5 seconds because of mechanics.

efduncanub17_ESO

welcome to every MMO ever with both PVP and PVE lol

WuffyCerulei

They really need to take a long hard look at what plagues pve and pvp separately. They've done that in past, like the Viper/Selene/Velidreth issue. Viper was nerfed, and Selene/Velidreth were changed to be more avoidable. However, they have't done that much. Various skills used in pve were nerfed cuz various pvpers can't help but complain.

MajBludd

I thought end game was pvp

AlienatedGoat

templesus wrote: »

Lol tell that to my stamplar. You haven't seen a single nerf to stamplar in pve due to pvp, but on the other hand we've been decimated (loss of major mending due to attempt to balance pve healers) in pvp due to pve.

Heck, even just with this patch Mechanical Acuity which was a good set in PvP was absolutely destroyed for any pvp build because of the nerf aimed at creating build diversity in PvE - - which didnt even happen because siroria and reloquen are just going to replace it.

One set and one skill hardly equals the multitude of sets and skills used in PvE that were nerfed for PvP.

AlienatedGoat

MajBludd wrote: »

I thought end game was pvp

They also said you could play how you want. Still believe that?

I don't. If you want to be competitive in endgame you have to follow the meta, which is very narrow.

AuldWolf

I've spoken about this elsewhere. When I explained difficulty creep and how it killed a big number of MMOs (like Champions Online and Wildstar) along with a number of promising online multiplayer games (like Battleborn).

Difficulty Creep:

Hardcore Players: Make the game harder!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: More purple loot! I want to feel more badarse!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: The game is too easy, now! The purples made it too easy! I have so many numbers! Make it harder!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: The difficulty is good but the rewards aren't worth it, add better elite drops!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: The game is too easy now, make the game more difficult to suit this gear I've grinded for!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: I love this difficulty! But I feel unrewarded. REWARD ME! More epic drops! More epic! Bigger numbers!
Developer: Okay!
Hardcore Players: I can sleepwalk through content, now. Make the game harder!
Developer: Okay!
Casual Players: We can't play this, now. The base game has become impossible to play! You have to spend your life grinding the stuff right at the beginning to get even slight viability. We can't play it any more. We're all going to leave, now.
Developer: Oh no! Why is our game failing? Where did 95 per cent of our community go? It's a mystery! We'll never figure it out!

A lot of my favourite games died that way.

Basically, trying to appeal to people who want a harder game kills your game. Studies have shown that in the vast, vast majority of MMOs, hardcore players make up only 5~ per cent of the player base, PvP players make up only 1~ per cent (or less), and the biggest demographic is casual players. The biggest number there is people who group in teams of 2-3 (mostly duos), followed by solo players. It might be a truth that MMO developers don't want to hear, but that's only because they're old guard and they have this idea of what an MMO is which is outdated.

For the most part, ESO is modern. It's casual, fun, story-focused, and it doesn't have difficulty creep brought about by trying to appease hardcore and PvP players. But doing stuff like nerfing PvE to balance PvP is.. Sigh. They should split up PvE and PvP balancing.

And they should learn to understand that most people don't want a stressful, anxiety-laden game. They want fun.

The majority play for the story arcs, the fun gameplay, and the collectibles. They roll alts all the time. By making the game more difficult, you make it less desirable to the largest demographic. That's how MMOs die.

I can't want for MMO developers to realise that.

Instead of, you know, killing their own games which happen to be games I liked.

brandonv516

Agreed too. I only do PvP (PvE when I need something for PvP) and I wish the game was balanced seperately.