Harmony and PvP ball groups

Berenhir · May 2018

I am a bit amused that nobody has panicked yet about the new harmony trait and the effect it has on PvP ball groups wearing it.

Basically, every golden harmony jewellery increases the strength of synergies by 35%. Stacking it on jewelry will allow ball groups to deal the equivalent of a vicious death proc at will where they want and when they want - using the necrotic orb synergies. It will deal around 20-25k undodgeable AoE tooltip damage.
Other synergies ( like gravity crush from nova ) not counted. Furthermore, synergies do not have the same GCD as skills so that you can stack orb explosion, sap/steeltornado, shalks destro and stuff like hurricane all nice and cosy in a choke point.

Why even run vicious death when you now can run war maiden and proc VD-like damage at will without the need to kill a squishy first? No need to iterate on the point that multiple players in a group can synergize multiple orbs at the same time AND get ressources back.

Voxicity · May 2018

Stopped caring about ball groups at this point since ZOS constantly encourages them

And then they wonder why they can't fix the lag

Biro123 · May 2018

Voxicity wrote: »

Stopped caring about ball groups at this point since ZOS constantly encourages them

And then they wonder why they can't fix the lag

Same..

Won't change much imho... You either avoid them or die.. its like that now - will still be like that afer.

Turelus · May 2018

You're only going to see it in super organised ball groups and even then it might not be better than other options.

Trying to get PvP'er to change their gear to benefit group play is not an easy task unless everyone is on board with the idea of the group winning together.

Cinbri · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

You're only going to see it in super organised ball groups and even then it might not be better than other options.

Trying to get PvP'er to change their gear to benefit group play is not an easy task unless everyone is on board with the idea of the group winning together.

Majority of ball groups on eu already prepared to have at least 1-2 synergy spammers with 3xharmony.

Feanor · May 2018

Not much point caring about ball groups, I agree. I don’t understand how that play style is fun, but the only thing that beats a ball group is another ball group basically. ZOS obviously wants it that way.

TheYKcid · May 2018

Does Harmony apply its effect to the person casting the originating ability? Or must it be slotted by the person activating the synergy?

It would be much less problematic if it were the latter. Intuitively I'd expect it to be activator-dependent, since synergies calculate their tooltip based on the stats of the activator.

Would appreciate clarification from anyone who has tested this.

Berenhir · May 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

Does Harmony apply its effect to the person casting the originating ability? Or must it be slotted by the person activating the synergy?

It would be much less problematic if it were the latter. Intuitively I'd expect it to be activator-dependent, since synergies calculate their tooltip based on the stats of the activator.

Would appreciate clarification from anyone who has tested this.

A synergy is an ability originating from the guy pressing the synergy button.

Turelus · May 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

You're only going to see it in super organised ball groups and even then it might not be better than other options.

Trying to get PvP'er to change their gear to benefit group play is not an easy task unless everyone is on board with the idea of the group winning together.

Majority of ball groups on eu already prepared to have at least 1-2 synergy spammers with 3xharmony.

How many groups is that though? Also if you get hit by the ball group don't you normally die any way, so if you're close enough to be getting hit by synergies you probably would have died without the traits?

I mean unless massive things changed it's always two or three groups per campaign and you can normally avoid them and their damage by just spreading out and not running into them.

Biro123 · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

You're only going to see it in super organised ball groups and even then it might not be better than other options.

Trying to get PvP'er to change their gear to benefit group play is not an easy task unless everyone is on board with the idea of the group winning together.

Majority of ball groups on eu already prepared to have at least 1-2 synergy spammers with 3xharmony.

How many groups is that though? Also if you get hit by the ball group don't you normally die any way, so if you're close enough to be getting hit by synergies you probably would have died without the traits?

I mean unless massive things changed it's always two or three groups per campaign and you can normally avoid them and their damage by just spreading out and not running into them.

Its surprising how many people still haven't learned this last part though. Still common to see half the faction mindlessly throwing themselves in the path of whichever ballgroup decides to plant themselves in a busy area.

schattenkind · May 2018

Or /sitchair in a distant, decent place and watch them farming ppl who wont stop going into them maaaany many times.
Usually what I do and it is fun actually, like a good movie, just with no happy end

Dymence · May 2018

Yep, harmony seems to be horribly overtuned right now just as bloodthirsty was, but is much less in the spotlight since you will only really see organized PVP groups using them.

Feanor · May 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

You're only going to see it in super organised ball groups and even then it might not be better than other options.

Trying to get PvP'er to change their gear to benefit group play is not an easy task unless everyone is on board with the idea of the group winning together.

Majority of ball groups on eu already prepared to have at least 1-2 synergy spammers with 3xharmony.

How many groups is that though? Also if you get hit by the ball group don't you normally die any way, so if you're close enough to be getting hit by synergies you probably would have died without the traits?

I mean unless massive things changed it's always two or three groups per campaign and you can normally avoid them and their damage by just spreading out and not running into them.

Its surprising how many people still haven't learned this last part though. Still common to see half the faction mindlessly throwing themselves in the path of whichever ballgroup decides to plant themselves in a busy area.

That’s why tower farming still is a thing sadly.

Cinbri · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

You're only going to see it in super organised ball groups and even then it might not be better than other options.

Trying to get PvP'er to change their gear to benefit group play is not an easy task unless everyone is on board with the idea of the group winning together.

Majority of ball groups on eu already prepared to have at least 1-2 synergy spammers with 3xharmony.

How many groups is that though? Also if you get hit by the ball group don't you normally die any way, so if you're close enough to be getting hit by synergies you probably would have died without the traits?

I mean unless massive things changed it's always two or three groups per campaign and you can normally avoid them and their damage by just spreading out and not running into them.

You can avoid it but it wont change fact that easiest pvp gamestyle(they call it "raiding") becoming even more easier and more uncounterable with every update. Like now when you just will need to enchant jewelry with specific trait and spam your synnergy button to get huge damage/utility output.
ZOS doing great job in making PvE content more challenging, with new dungeons and mini-trials where you can't just stack as tight as possible and burn everything down with aoe skills. Will be appreciated if they start treat PvP in same manner.

Minno · May 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

You're only going to see it in super organised ball groups and even then it might not be better than other options.

Trying to get PvP'er to change their gear to benefit group play is not an easy task unless everyone is on board with the idea of the group winning together.

Majority of ball groups on eu already prepared to have at least 1-2 synergy spammers with 3xharmony.

How many groups is that though? Also if you get hit by the ball group don't you normally die any way, so if you're close enough to be getting hit by synergies you probably would have died without the traits?

I mean unless massive things changed it's always two or three groups per campaign and you can normally avoid them and their damage by just spreading out and not running into them.

You can avoid it but it wont change fact that easiest pvp gamestyle(they call it "raiding") becoming even more easier and more uncounterable with every update. Like now when you just will need to enchant jewelry with specific trait and spam your synnergy button to get huge damage/utility output.
ZOS doing great job in making PvE content more challenging, with new dungeons and mini-trials where you can't just stack as tight as possible and burn everything down with aoe skills. Will be appreciated if they start treat PvP in same manner.

Speed/snare immunity is the only counter. That's why they love bottle neck conditions because they can't chase every little fly on the open field.

Kikke · May 2018

A random bunch of players should never be able too win over a team. Ever. If they do, the game aint balanced correctly...

Feanor · May 2018

kikkehs wrote: »

A random bunch of players should never be able too win over a team. Ever. If they do, the game aint balanced correctly...

That’s a broad statement. I think random players should stand a chance at least when they do outnumber the ball group heavily. But you can bring 50 players in PuGs to a fight with a 20 man ball group and the ball group doesn’t even break a sweat.

Minno · May 2018

kikkehs wrote: »

A random bunch of players should never be able too win over a team. Ever. If they do, the game aint balanced correctly...

Hit and run tactics. Sure you might hardly kill them, but if they are too busy swatting flys instead of taking an objective/stop the event Zerg, then are they an effective team?

Hell even in baseball an unsuccessful batter can still gain a productive out by wearing down the pitcher before the next batter comes up. Same tactics lol.

Feanor · May 2018

Minno wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

A random bunch of players should never be able too win over a team. Ever. If they do, the game aint balanced correctly...

Hit and run tactics. Sure you might hardly kill them, but if they are too busy swatting flys instead of taking an objective/stop the event Zerg, then are they an effective team?

Hell even in baseball an unsuccessful batter can still gain a productive out by wearing down the pitcher before the next batter comes up. Same tactics lol.

I think most ball groups don’t care for objectives at all. It’s all about seeing nice AP numbers roll in. A certain DC guild on EU Sotha Sil took BM yesterday with a blue scroll in it. They stayed there for 20 minutes farming the hell out of AD PuGs. Simply because they could. Basically it’s all about when they get bored and leave.

Having dedicated roles and a synergized play style is just that strong with the available tools.

Vercingetorix · May 2018

Synergy ball groups will hardly be a thing due to the excessive lag in those types of engagements. The near impossibility of being able to even trigger the synergy when appears on the screen will make Harmony largely worthless in pvp due to the excessive lag. By comparison, synergies are clunky enough in PvE due to the synergy prompt that will appear on your screen for about half a second and never trigger again if you miss the inhuman timing requirement.

Just imagine 2x or 3x the lag with that jerky prompt... it'd be a miracle to pull of a synergy in the middle of pvp combat, much less several in the span of a few seconds - all without the inevitable crash that follows from everything going off at the same time.

Berenhir · May 2018

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Synergy ball groups will hardly be a thing due to the excessive lag in those types of engagements. The near impossibility of being able to even trigger the synergy when appears on the screen will make Harmony largely worthless in pvp due to the excessive lag. By comparison, synergies are clunky enough in PvE due to the synergy prompt that will appear on your screen for about half a second and never trigger again if you miss the inhuman timing requirement.

Just imagine 2x or 3x the lag with that jerky prompt... it'd be a miracle to pull of a synergy in the middle of pvp combat, much less several in the span of a few seconds - all without the inevitable crash that follows from everything going off at the same time.

You can just give your mouse wheel a spin and catch every synergy available like everybody else. You don't have to push a specific button, at least not on PC.

Dymence · May 2018

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Synergy ball groups will hardly be a thing due to the excessive lag in those types of engagements. The near impossibility of being able to even trigger the synergy when appears on the screen will make Harmony largely worthless in pvp due to the excessive lag. By comparison, synergies are clunky enough in PvE due to the synergy prompt that will appear on your screen for about half a second and never trigger again if you miss the inhuman timing requirement.

Just imagine 2x or 3x the lag with that jerky prompt... it'd be a miracle to pull of a synergy in the middle of pvp combat, much less several in the span of a few seconds - all without the inevitable crash that follows from everything going off at the same time.

Synergies really aren't an issue to activate anymore, ever since they fixed them up with the last patch.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2018

It's fine, in this game large scale combat is about stacking inside other players models and spaming aoe. While it might be true you don't see delta force tossing frag grenades and 40mm grenades at their own feet to kill nearby enemies, that's how it works here. Suspend your disbelief and roll that mouse wheel for an awesome particle light show.

schattenkind · May 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

[...]
ZOS doing great job in making PvE content more challenging, with new dungeons and mini-trials where you can't just stack as tight as possible and burn everything down with aoe skills. Will be appreciated if they start treat PvP in same manner.

Actually I believe that whatever they change, the impact either benefits pvp or nerfs pve, if they turn it around, it then nerfs pvp but benefits pve. It seems like there is no way to have this both worlds combined, either way one of both will suffer. Like now: while boosting snyergies in pve is nice, in pvp it might be an issue. Apply this to most changes being discussed in the past few weeks and see for yourself.

Serjustin19 · May 2018

I'm always squishy

Taonnor · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

A random bunch of players should never be able too win over a team. Ever. If they do, the game aint balanced correctly...

That’s a broad statement. I think random players should stand a chance at least when they do outnumber the ball group heavily. But you can bring 50 players in PuGs to a fight with a 20 man ball group and the ball group doesn’t even break a sweat.

That's not correct. One intelligent Negate from one PUG player and the ball group will die. With Summerset there is a free Range Aoe Stun&Heal Skill from Psijik too. So you need one intelligent Sorc with Negate & Aoe Stun to kill a ball group.

I know it, because i often run in these ball groups and if i run solo in PUG zerg i kill other ball groups with my negate. Not every time, but it's ok. And with the new Aoe Stun the life for ball groups will be much harder.

Inig0 · May 2018

this whole thing seems like a curious little use of new game mechanics. Are there any screen shots or damage logs available to see what sort damage your able to get with this? I think it would help the devs too see how much it does for a better look at your perspective.

Ender1310 · May 2018

Doesn't Earthgore negate the negate? Or at least heal everyone through the damage?

Feanor · May 2018

Taonnor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

A random bunch of players should never be able too win over a team. Ever. If they do, the game aint balanced correctly...

That’s a broad statement. I think random players should stand a chance at least when they do outnumber the ball group heavily. But you can bring 50 players in PuGs to a fight with a 20 man ball group and the ball group doesn’t even break a sweat.

That's not correct. One intelligent Negate from one PUG player and the ball group will die. With Summerset there is a free Range Aoe Stun&Heal Skill from Psijik too. So you need one intelligent Sorc with Negate & Aoe Stun to kill a ball group.

I know it, because i often run in these ball groups and if i run solo in PUG zerg i kill other ball groups with my negate. Not every time, but it's ok. And with the new Aoe Stun the life for ball groups will be much harder.

The „intelligent“ negate is one of the ways to kill a ball group, but unfortunately it needs quite some coordination too. You need to time your damage burst exactly when the negate hits. Good ball groups move out of a negate so quickly that the kill window is actually small. I know because I have negated many a ball group when the AD PuGs refused to do any damage despite. Your average PuG player just doesn’t anticipate when the opponent pushes (that’s why they get farmed on flags 24/7) and doesn’t read situations where there is vulnerability. Coordination always wins unless the ball group makes mistakes.

Taonnor · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

A random bunch of players should never be able too win over a team. Ever. If they do, the game aint balanced correctly...

That’s a broad statement. I think random players should stand a chance at least when they do outnumber the ball group heavily. But you can bring 50 players in PuGs to a fight with a 20 man ball group and the ball group doesn’t even break a sweat.

That's not correct. One intelligent Negate from one PUG player and the ball group will die. With Summerset there is a free Range Aoe Stun&Heal Skill from Psijik too. So you need one intelligent Sorc with Negate & Aoe Stun to kill a ball group.

I know it, because i often run in these ball groups and if i run solo in PUG zerg i kill other ball groups with my negate. Not every time, but it's ok. And with the new Aoe Stun the life for ball groups will be much harder.

The „intelligent“ negate is one of the ways to kill a ball group, but unfortunately it needs quite some coordination too. You need to time your damage burst exactly when the negate hits. Good ball groups move out of a negate so quickly that the kill window is actually small. I know because I have negated many a ball group when the AD PuGs refused to do any damage despite. Your average PuG player just doesn’t anticipate when the opponent pushes (that’s why they get farmed on flags 24/7) and doesn’t read situations where there is vulnerability. Coordination always wins unless the ball group makes mistakes.

That's right, the window to kill is small. But what overall picture of the game you have, when ball groups are impossible to play? Then you have the discussion again of number > all. So my opinion is a middle way to have ball groups still viable and have them not too strong. ATM i think it is "Ok" balanced and with Summerset we will see what effect the new skill line on ball groups will have. In my head the skills will make ball groups much weaker, especially the aoe stun, because the aoe stun is no ultimate. It's a spammable and it's ranged.

Berenhir · May 2018

Taonnor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

A random bunch of players should never be able too win over a team. Ever. If they do, the game aint balanced correctly...

That’s a broad statement. I think random players should stand a chance at least when they do outnumber the ball group heavily. But you can bring 50 players in PuGs to a fight with a 20 man ball group and the ball group doesn’t even break a sweat.

That's not correct. One intelligent Negate from one PUG player and the ball group will die. With Summerset there is a free Range Aoe Stun&Heal Skill from Psijik too. So you need one intelligent Sorc with Negate & Aoe Stun to kill a ball group.

I know it, because i often run in these ball groups and if i run solo in PUG zerg i kill other ball groups with my negate. Not every time, but it's ok. And with the new Aoe Stun the life for ball groups will be much harder.

The „intelligent“ negate is one of the ways to kill a ball group, but unfortunately it needs quite some coordination too. You need to time your damage burst exactly when the negate hits. Good ball groups move out of a negate so quickly that the kill window is actually small. I know because I have negated many a ball group when the AD PuGs refused to do any damage despite. Your average PuG player just doesn’t anticipate when the opponent pushes (that’s why they get farmed on flags 24/7) and doesn’t read situations where there is vulnerability. Coordination always wins unless the ball group makes mistakes.

That's right, the window to kill is small. But what overall picture of the game you have, when ball groups are impossible to play? Then you have the discussion again of number > all. So my opinion is a middle way to have ball groups still viable and have them not too strong. ATM i think it is "Ok" balanced and with Summerset we will see what effect the new skill line on ball groups will have. In my head the skills will make ball groups much weaker, especially the aoe stun, because the aoe stun is no ultimate. It's a spammable and it's ranged.

Uptime on CC immunity is around 50% for most ball group DDs so the skill won't make much of a difference.