Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

um..... no.

current system works but the ui does need some serious attention.

Current system doesn't work for new comers, its all about who has played longest

Sure it does. No matter what zone they are in they can find a guild trader than will probably have all the basic stuff a new player wants/needs. Later when they are ready to start selling beyond using zone chat they have five guild slots and trade guilds are accepting new members all the time. And when they need a few rare items it isn't going to cost them an outrageous amount of gold.

The guild trader system can be improved but making it a central trading system is a big big step in the wrong direction.

Not according to the other 99% of MMO's

Cryptical wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

With a central trader, the market manipulation would be way too easy and this is not up for a debate. You can google market cornering or market manipulation in MMORPGs and hit several pages explaining it. But for the lazy ones, I'll give a quick run down how it works:

You decide a quite rare, but useful item to manipulate, let's say a potent nirncrux. And let's say it sells for 4 000 gold at the moment, but you want to sell it at 40 000 gold, what do you do? Well, you open the centralised store, put your potent nirncrux for sale for 40 000 gold and then, you buy everything under the price, every single 4 000 gold nirncrux. You do not have to sell them right away, you can stockpile 'em. Now others do not see those 4 000 gold nirncruxes, because you're buying them right away. The cheapest price others see is your stupid high 40 000 gold price and now some unfortunate people with a moderate amount of gold in their pocket and a need for a potent nirncrux will buy it for the lowest cost of 40 000 gold. You will as a seller use all the gold you earn to buy the low priced potent nirncruxes from the list, upkeeping the facade of "40 000 gold is the lowest price for potent nirncrux". At some point other sellers starts to sell them at 40 000 gold, because that is the selling point for potent nirncrux and no one wants to lose 36 000 profits. You will have thousands of poten nirncruxes in your pocket and you can keep selling them.

Now this is not possible on the current system because you can't buy easily every single low costing item, because you'd need to travel everywhere. And if you'd try to corner a single guild trader, everybody would stop buying the item from that trader.

As I explained earlier, this fantasy of yours has already failed on Xbox NA when some people bought up every aetherial dust and increased the prices from ~75k to a new price point of 100 to 110k.

They successfully kept buying all the lower listed dust. They kept relisting the items at their new desired price. They even convinced zone chat sellers that their price was valid because the inflated price was the only listing out there.

AND THEY FAILED.

They managed to corner the market on console, where the economy is even more decentralized than pc because we don’t have the automated harvesting of data from MM and TTC add ons smoothing out the jagged outliers.

And they still failed because this fantasy of yours does not take into consideration that the general public has the choice of buying or farming it themselves or finding a substitute. With any widespread commodity in eso, there are too many farmers for the market to be controlled like you imagine. It won’t happen with mats, there are too many subscribers with mats just piling up in the craft bag and more are as close as a farming route.

The arguments against a public trader have been debunked by how the real world attempts at manipulation failed - by not seeing that 5% cannot control the market created by the 95%.

As usual, this manipulation idea only works in theory until someone actually starts running the numbers on a population size scale. Using temp alloys for example, running like 9k each on Xbox NA. If I’m the 5% that is the wealthy manipulators looking to make them 15k, I’m trying to buy up all the alloys under that. But because I’m sucking up so many from the market, I need to sell them in pairs and fours and eights and in piles. If I don’t, I’m pumping huge amounts of gold into the economy and not bringing it back to me = inflation as more gold is sloshing around. A serious problem is the rise in price has inspired many people to take up farming, increasing supply and acting as a driver toward lower prices. And most fatal to my plan is those thousands of players with the craft bag, sitting there with hundreds of alloys doing nothing, or tens of thousands of various ore to refine into alloys, that get retrieved and starts getting listed at 14k, putting my deficit into overdrive.

This market manipulation theory is just that - a fantastical theory that does not actually function in THIS economy outside of fevered imaginative brains.

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

With a central trader, the market manipulation would be way too easy and this is not up for a debate. You can google market cornering or market manipulation in MMORPGs and hit several pages explaining it. But for the lazy ones, I'll give a quick run down how it works:

You decide a quite rare, but useful item to manipulate, let's say a potent nirncrux. And let's say it sells for 4 000 gold at the moment, but you want to sell it at 40 000 gold, what do you do? Well, you open the centralised store, put your potent nirncrux for sale for 40 000 gold and then, you buy everything under the price, every single 4 000 gold nirncrux. You do not have to sell them right away, you can stockpile 'em. Now others do not see those 4 000 gold nirncruxes, because you're buying them right away. The cheapest price others see is your stupid high 40 000 gold price and now some unfortunate people with a moderate amount of gold in their pocket and a need for a potent nirncrux will buy it for the lowest cost of 40 000 gold. You will as a seller use all the gold you earn to buy the low priced potent nirncruxes from the list, upkeeping the facade of "40 000 gold is the lowest price for potent nirncrux". At some point other sellers starts to sell them at 40 000 gold, because that is the selling point for potent nirncrux and no one wants to lose 36 000 profits. You will have thousands of poten nirncruxes in your pocket and you can keep selling them.

Now this is not possible on the current system because you can't buy easily every single low costing item, because you'd need to travel everywhere. And if you'd try to corner a single guild trader, everybody would stop buying the item from that trader.

As I explained earlier, this fantasy of yours has already failed on Xbox NA when some people bought up every aetherial dust and increased the prices from ~75k to a new price point of 100 to 110k.

They successfully kept buying all the lower listed dust. They kept relisting the items at their new desired price. They even convinced zone chat sellers that their price was valid because the inflated price was the only listing out there.

AND THEY FAILED.

They managed to corner the market on console, where the economy is even more decentralized than pc because we don’t have the automated harvesting of data from MM and TTC add ons smoothing out the jagged outliers.

And they still failed because this fantasy of yours does not take into consideration that the general public has the choice of buying or farming it themselves or finding a substitute. With any widespread commodity in eso, there are too many farmers for the market to be controlled like you imagine. It won’t happen with mats, there are too many subscribers with mats just piling up in the craft bag and more are as close as a farming route.

The arguments against a public trader have been debunked by how the real world attempts at manipulation failed - by not seeing that 5% cannot control the market created by the 95%.

As usual, this manipulation idea only works in theory until someone actually starts running the numbers on a population size scale. Using temp alloys for example, running like 9k each on Xbox NA. If I’m the 5% that is the wealthy manipulators looking to make them 15k, I’m trying to buy up all the alloys under that. But because I’m sucking up so many from the market, I need to sell them in pairs and fours and eights and in piles. If I don’t, I’m pumping huge amounts of gold into the economy and not bringing it back to me = inflation as more gold is sloshing around. A serious problem is the rise in price has inspired many people to take up farming, increasing supply and acting as a driver toward lower prices. And most fatal to my plan is those thousands of players with the craft bag, sitting there with hundreds of alloys doing nothing, or tens of thousands of various ore to refine into alloys, that get retrieved and starts getting listed at 14k, putting my deficit into overdrive.

This market manipulation theory is just that - a fantastical theory that does not actually function in THIS economy outside of fevered imaginative brains.

it isn't a fantasy, I seen it happen in ff14 quite a bit. Saw it in WoW and ff11 a lot as well.

all 3 had a central market. It easier to manipulate with a server/mega-server wide 1 stop market then it is to manipulate game wide traders.

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Remember, just because it's not perfect does not mean we should break it more.

It was already broken since day 1.

Cryptical wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

With a central trader, the market manipulation would be way too easy and this is not up for a debate. You can google market cornering or market manipulation in MMORPGs and hit several pages explaining it. But for the lazy ones, I'll give a quick run down how it works:

You decide a quite rare, but useful item to manipulate, let's say a potent nirncrux. And let's say it sells for 4 000 gold at the moment, but you want to sell it at 40 000 gold, what do you do? Well, you open the centralised store, put your potent nirncrux for sale for 40 000 gold and then, you buy everything under the price, every single 4 000 gold nirncrux. You do not have to sell them right away, you can stockpile 'em. Now others do not see those 4 000 gold nirncruxes, because you're buying them right away. The cheapest price others see is your stupid high 40 000 gold price and now some unfortunate people with a moderate amount of gold in their pocket and a need for a potent nirncrux will buy it for the lowest cost of 40 000 gold. You will as a seller use all the gold you earn to buy the low priced potent nirncruxes from the list, upkeeping the facade of "40 000 gold is the lowest price for potent nirncrux". At some point other sellers starts to sell them at 40 000 gold, because that is the selling point for potent nirncrux and no one wants to lose 36 000 profits. You will have thousands of poten nirncruxes in your pocket and you can keep selling them.

Now this is not possible on the current system because you can't buy easily every single low costing item, because you'd need to travel everywhere. And if you'd try to corner a single guild trader, everybody would stop buying the item from that trader.

As I explained earlier, this fantasy of yours has already failed on Xbox NA when some people bought up every aetherial dust and increased the prices from ~75k to a new price point of 100 to 110k.

They successfully kept buying all the lower listed dust. They kept relisting the items at their new desired price. They even convinced zone chat sellers that their price was valid because the inflated price was the only listing out there.

AND THEY FAILED.

They managed to corner the market on console, where the economy is even more decentralized than pc because we don’t have the automated harvesting of data from MM and TTC add ons smoothing out the jagged outliers.

And they still failed because this fantasy of yours does not take into consideration that the general public has the choice of buying or farming it themselves or finding a substitute. With any widespread commodity in eso, there are too many farmers for the market to be controlled like you imagine. It won’t happen with mats, there are too many subscribers with mats just piling up in the craft bag and more are as close as a farming route.

The arguments against a public trader have been debunked by how the real world attempts at manipulation failed - by not seeing that 5% cannot control the market created by the 95%.

As usual, this manipulation idea only works in theory until someone actually starts running the numbers on a population size scale. Using temp alloys for example, running like 9k each on Xbox NA. If I’m the 5% that is the wealthy manipulators looking to make them 15k, I’m trying to buy up all the alloys under that. But because I’m sucking up so many from the market, I’ve got 5% of the slots with 100% of the product. I need to sell them in pairs and fours and eights and in piles. If I don’t, I’m pumping huge amounts of gold into the economy and not bringing it back to me = inflation as more gold is sloshing around. A serious problem is the rise in price has inspired many people to take up farming, increasing supply and acting as a driver toward lower prices. And most fatal to my plan is those thousands of players with the craft bag, sitting there with hundreds of alloys doing nothing, or tens of thousands of various ore to refine into alloys, that get retrieved and starts getting listed at 14k, putting my deficit into overdrive.

This market manipulation theory is just that - a fantastical theory that does not actually function in THIS economy outside of fevered imaginative brains.

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

With a central trader, the market manipulation would be way too easy and this is not up for a debate. You can google market cornering or market manipulation in MMORPGs and hit several pages explaining it. But for the lazy ones, I'll give a quick run down how it works:

You decide a quite rare, but useful item to manipulate, let's say a potent nirncrux. And let's say it sells for 4 000 gold at the moment, but you want to sell it at 40 000 gold, what do you do? Well, you open the centralised store, put your potent nirncrux for sale for 40 000 gold and then, you buy everything under the price, every single 4 000 gold nirncrux. You do not have to sell them right away, you can stockpile 'em. Now others do not see those 4 000 gold nirncruxes, because you're buying them right away. The cheapest price others see is your stupid high 40 000 gold price and now some unfortunate people with a moderate amount of gold in their pocket and a need for a potent nirncrux will buy it for the lowest cost of 40 000 gold. You will as a seller use all the gold you earn to buy the low priced potent nirncruxes from the list, upkeeping the facade of "40 000 gold is the lowest price for potent nirncrux". At some point other sellers starts to sell them at 40 000 gold, because that is the selling point for potent nirncrux and no one wants to lose 36 000 profits. You will have thousands of poten nirncruxes in your pocket and you can keep selling them.

Now this is not possible on the current system because you can't buy easily every single low costing item, because you'd need to travel everywhere. And if you'd try to corner a single guild trader, everybody would stop buying the item from that trader.

As I explained earlier, this fantasy of yours has already failed on Xbox NA when some people bought up every aetherial dust and increased the prices from ~75k to a new price point of 100 to 110k.

They successfully kept buying all the lower listed dust. They kept relisting the items at their new desired price. They even convinced zone chat sellers that their price was valid because the inflated price was the only listing out there.

AND THEY FAILED.

They managed to corner the market on console, where the economy is even more decentralized than pc because we don’t have the automated harvesting of data from MM and TTC add ons smoothing out the jagged outliers.

And they still failed because this fantasy of yours does not take into consideration that the general public has the choice of buying or farming it themselves or finding a substitute. With any widespread commodity in eso, there are too many farmers for the market to be controlled like you imagine. It won’t happen with mats, there are too many subscribers with mats just piling up in the craft bag and more are as close as a farming route.

The arguments against a public trader have been debunked by how the real world attempts at manipulation failed - by not seeing that 5% cannot control the market created by the 95%.

As usual, this manipulation idea only works in theory until someone actually starts running the numbers on a population size scale. Using temp alloys for example, running like 9k each on Xbox NA. If I’m the 5% that is the wealthy manipulators looking to make them 15k, I’m trying to buy up all the alloys under that. But because I’m sucking up so many from the market, I’ve got 5% of the slots with 100% of the product. I need to sell them in pairs and fours and eights and in piles. If I don’t, I’m pumping huge amounts of gold into the economy and not bringing it back to me = inflation as more gold is sloshing around. A serious problem is the rise in price has inspired many people to take up farming, increasing supply and acting as a driver toward lower prices. And most fatal to my plan is those thousands of players with the craft bag, sitting there with hundreds of alloys doing nothing, or tens of thousands of various ore to refine into alloys, that get retrieved and starts getting listed at 14k, putting my deficit into overdrive.

This market manipulation theory is just that - a fantastical theory that does not actually function in THIS economy outside of fevered imaginative brains.

You missed my last paragraph: this manipulation is not possible on the current system. It is however possible on a central trading system, where you can see every single trade in a one single list and it works even better if you can search for spesific item in a said trade system. And with the example I gave with a theorised single global trader, I'd need to sell 1 potent nirncrux for 40 000 gold to cover 10x bought nirncruxes with the pricetag of 1. This kind of market manipulation is common in the AH/global singular trader system and there is tons of material and evidence that it has happenes before. The market manipulation is the primary reason for me to want to stay with the current ESO trade system, because the current system prevents it quite well.

Ok, think about this what if some major whale guilds decide to show up and bid out all the top end spots in every single go to spot so no one could have a trading guild there at all while they own it you won't be able to sell to the public at all, and its legit because ZoS allows it?

aaisoaho wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

With a central trader, the market manipulation would be way too easy and this is not up for a debate. You can google market cornering or market manipulation in MMORPGs and hit several pages explaining it. But for the lazy ones, I'll give a quick run down how it works:

You decide a quite rare, but useful item to manipulate, let's say a potent nirncrux. And let's say it sells for 4 000 gold at the moment, but you want to sell it at 40 000 gold, what do you do? Well, you open the centralised store, put your potent nirncrux for sale for 40 000 gold and then, you buy everything under the price, every single 4 000 gold nirncrux. You do not have to sell them right away, you can stockpile 'em. Now others do not see those 4 000 gold nirncruxes, because you're buying them right away. The cheapest price others see is your stupid high 40 000 gold price and now some unfortunate people with a moderate amount of gold in their pocket and a need for a potent nirncrux will buy it for the lowest cost of 40 000 gold. You will as a seller use all the gold you earn to buy the low priced potent nirncruxes from the list, upkeeping the facade of "40 000 gold is the lowest price for potent nirncrux". At some point other sellers starts to sell them at 40 000 gold, because that is the selling point for potent nirncrux and no one wants to lose 36 000 profits. You will have thousands of poten nirncruxes in your pocket and you can keep selling them.

Now this is not possible on the current system because you can't buy easily every single low costing item, because you'd need to travel everywhere. And if you'd try to corner a single guild trader, everybody would stop buying the item from that trader.

As I explained earlier, this fantasy of yours has already failed on Xbox NA when some people bought up every aetherial dust and increased the prices from ~75k to a new price point of 100 to 110k.

They successfully kept buying all the lower listed dust. They kept relisting the items at their new desired price. They even convinced zone chat sellers that their price was valid because the inflated price was the only listing out there.

AND THEY FAILED.

They managed to corner the market on console, where the economy is even more decentralized than pc because we don’t have the automated harvesting of data from MM and TTC add ons smoothing out the jagged outliers.

And they still failed because this fantasy of yours does not take into consideration that the general public has the choice of buying or farming it themselves or finding a substitute. With any widespread commodity in eso, there are too many farmers for the market to be controlled like you imagine. It won’t happen with mats, there are too many subscribers with mats just piling up in the craft bag and more are as close as a farming route.

The arguments against a public trader have been debunked by how the real world attempts at manipulation failed - by not seeing that 5% cannot control the market created by the 95%.

As usual, this manipulation idea only works in theory until someone actually starts running the numbers on a population size scale. Using temp alloys for example, running like 9k each on Xbox NA. If I’m the 5% that is the wealthy manipulators looking to make them 15k, I’m trying to buy up all the alloys under that. But because I’m sucking up so many from the market, I’ve got 5% of the slots with 100% of the product. I need to sell them in pairs and fours and eights and in piles. If I don’t, I’m pumping huge amounts of gold into the economy and not bringing it back to me = inflation as more gold is sloshing around. A serious problem is the rise in price has inspired many people to take up farming, increasing supply and acting as a driver toward lower prices. And most fatal to my plan is those thousands of players with the craft bag, sitting there with hundreds of alloys doing nothing, or tens of thousands of various ore to refine into alloys, that get retrieved and starts getting listed at 14k, putting my deficit into overdrive.

This market manipulation theory is just that - a fantastical theory that does not actually function in THIS economy outside of fevered imaginative brains.

You missed my last paragraph: this manipulation is not possible on the current system. It is however possible on a central trading system, where you can see every single trade in a one single list and it works even better if you can search for spesific item in a said trade system. And with the example I gave with a theorised single global trader, I'd need to sell 1 potent nirncrux for 40 000 gold to cover 10x bought nirncruxes with the pricetag of 1. This kind of market manipulation is common in the AH/global singular trader system and there is tons of material and evidence that it has happenes before. The market manipulation is the primary reason for me to want to stay with the current ESO trade system, because the current system prevents it quite well.

Ok, think about this what if some major whale guilds decide to show up and bid out all the top end spots in every single go to spot so no one could have a trading guild there at all while they own it you won't be able to sell to the public at all, and its legit because ZoS allows it?

Your post is quite off topic, but I'll bite. (I think major whale guilds have very little to do about the topic: central market)

Ain't the major spots already owned by said whale guilds? I mean, all the big trade guilds owns a kiosk in either Rawl'Kha, Wayrest, Mournhold, Elden Root or Belkarth. If you mean that only a couple of guilds forms sub-guilds and buys every single major spot, well, they'd have to have a huge inventory of goodies and lots of time to make it profitable, else, they'd lose gold in millions.

And yes, it is legit to pay 10 million+ gold per trader spot which prevents smaller bids from getting the said trader, where's the problem? If my guild loses their bid, I'll either stockpile on goodies till our trade guild gets a good spot to sell, or find another trade guild to sell my goods.

Motherball wrote: »

Casual players are largely excluded from trading in this game imo. I dont like using guild traders to sell stuff. Im not always active in the game and Id rather just sell my stuff to a vendor than have to find a new guild for a couple weeks, especially considering the guild is likely not even going to have a trader every week.

Cryptical wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

Casual players are largely excluded from trading in this game imo. I dont like using guild traders to sell stuff. Im not always active in the game and Id rather just sell my stuff to a vendor than have to find a new guild for a couple weeks, especially considering the guild is likely not even going to have a trader every week.

That’s not opinion, it is a fact that the great majority of players are excluded due to there being more people than guild traders could have.

1 trader cart = 500 people.

There are 191 carts in the game. 44 in each alliance and 59 in the neutral areas.

If zero people double up into more than one trader, and no guild masters used multiple accounts to buff their membership up to get a bank, that’s 95500 persons per server NA or EU, which is 191000 persons per gaming platform: pc or PlayStation or Xbox.

Last player count announcement I recall was 8million players, roughly even between Xbox / pc / PlayStation. That’s roughly 2.5 mill per platform.

There are enough trader carts per platform to give 191k people a public store. But there are 2500k people.

7.6% of the players can get in a trading guild before there simply aren’t any more chairs. AND that’s if there is zero doubling up on traders (there is), AND presuming all traders are shopped equally (they aren’t).

Again, I say the reason a public trader cannot be manipulated like some people fear is because more than 90% of the public currently has no voice in the market. With a public trader, the number of people listing things is times 10.

10 times as many people listing perfect roe. 10 times as many listing wax, kuta, alloy, motifs, intricates, furnishings, trophies, runeboxes, sets, general mats, recipes, and so on.

A cabal couldn’t manipulate the rarest dropped mat in the game when the general public was 90% excluded from the market, and the cabal still lost. There is not an ice warden’s chance in bloodroot that any group could pull it off when the entire 100% of the general public speaks in the marketplace.