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Central Guild trader for all in one place, or a central market
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Armatesz✭✭✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
Your post is quite off topic, but I'll bite. (I think major whale guilds have very little to do about the topic: central market)With a central trader, the market manipulation would be way too easy and this is not up for a debate. You can google market cornering or market manipulation in MMORPGs and hit several pages explaining it. But for the lazy ones, I'll give a quick run down how it works:
You decide a quite rare, but useful item to manipulate, let's say a potent nirncrux. And let's say it sells for 4 000 gold at the moment, but you want to sell it at 40 000 gold, what do you do? Well, you open the centralised store, put your potent nirncrux for sale for 40 000 gold and then, you buy everything under the price, every single 4 000 gold nirncrux. You do not have to sell them right away, you can stockpile 'em. Now others do not see those 4 000 gold nirncruxes, because you're buying them right away. The cheapest price others see is your stupid high 40 000 gold price and now some unfortunate people with a moderate amount of gold in their pocket and a need for a potent nirncrux will buy it for the lowest cost of 40 000 gold. You will as a seller use all the gold you earn to buy the low priced potent nirncruxes from the list, upkeeping the facade of "40 000 gold is the lowest price for potent nirncrux". At some point other sellers starts to sell them at 40 000 gold, because that is the selling point for potent nirncrux and no one wants to lose 36 000 profits. You will have thousands of poten nirncruxes in your pocket and you can keep selling them.
Now this is not possible on the current system because you can't buy easily every single low costing item, because you'd need to travel everywhere. And if you'd try to corner a single guild trader, everybody would stop buying the item from that trader.
As I explained earlier, this fantasy of yours has already failed on Xbox NA when some people bought up every aetherial dust and increased the prices from ~75k to a new price point of 100 to 110k.
They successfully kept buying all the lower listed dust. They kept relisting the items at their new desired price. They even convinced zone chat sellers that their price was valid because the inflated price was the only listing out there.
AND THEY FAILED.
They managed to corner the market on console, where the economy is even more decentralized than pc because we don’t have the automated harvesting of data from MM and TTC add ons smoothing out the jagged outliers.
And they still failed because this fantasy of yours does not take into consideration that the general public has the choice of buying or farming it themselves or finding a substitute. With any widespread commodity in eso, there are too many farmers for the market to be controlled like you imagine. It won’t happen with mats, there are too many subscribers with mats just piling up in the craft bag and more are as close as a farming route.
The arguments against a public trader have been debunked by how the real world attempts at manipulation failed - by not seeing that 5% cannot control the market created by the 95%.
As usual, this manipulation idea only works in theory until someone actually starts running the numbers on a population size scale. Using temp alloys for example, running like 9k each on Xbox NA. If I’m the 5% that is the wealthy manipulators looking to make them 15k, I’m trying to buy up all the alloys under that. But because I’m sucking up so many from the market, I’ve got 5% of the slots with 100% of the product. I need to sell them in pairs and fours and eights and in piles. If I don’t, I’m pumping huge amounts of gold into the economy and not bringing it back to me = inflation as more gold is sloshing around. A serious problem is the rise in price has inspired many people to take up farming, increasing supply and acting as a driver toward lower prices. And most fatal to my plan is those thousands of players with the craft bag, sitting there with hundreds of alloys doing nothing, or tens of thousands of various ore to refine into alloys, that get retrieved and starts getting listed at 14k, putting my deficit into overdrive.
This market manipulation theory is just that - a fantastical theory that does not actually function in THIS economy outside of fevered imaginative brains.
You missed my last paragraph: this manipulation is not possible on the current system. It is however possible on a central trading system, where you can see every single trade in a one single list and it works even better if you can search for spesific item in a said trade system. And with the example I gave with a theorised single global trader, I'd need to sell 1 potent nirncrux for 40 000 gold to cover 10x bought nirncruxes with the pricetag of 1. This kind of market manipulation is common in the AH/global singular trader system and there is tons of material and evidence that it has happenes before. The market manipulation is the primary reason for me to want to stay with the current ESO trade system, because the current system prevents it quite well.
Ok, think about this what if some major whale guilds decide to show up and bid out all the top end spots in every single go to spot so no one could have a trading guild there at all while they own it you won't be able to sell to the public at all, and its legit because ZoS allows it?
Ain't the major spots already owned by said whale guilds? I mean, all the big trade guilds owns a kiosk in either Rawl'Kha, Wayrest, Mournhold, Elden Root or Belkarth. If you mean that only a couple of guilds forms sub-guilds and buys every single major spot, well, they'd have to have a huge inventory of goodies and lots of time to make it profitable, else, they'd lose gold in millions.
And yes, it is legit to pay 10 million+ gold per trader spot which prevents smaller bids from getting the said trader, where's the problem? If my guild loses their bid, I'll either stockpile on goodies till our trade guild gets a good spot to sell, or find another trade guild to sell my goods.
Just saying this system is far worse than any centralized market system tbh
no it isn't.... it's far better because it makes it impossible for a single player to game the market.
anyway didn't you quit, aren't you supposed to be playing lotro now?
Are people not catching this?
I watched a small cabal completely conquer the small obstacle of having to go to a bunch of traders.
This barrier of a bunch of trader carts is not nearly as high as you think.
This is how easy it is:
Take 12 people. Divide up the carts so each person monitors 16 carts. Those 16 carts are that person’s patrol route.
12 people is a normal trial group. Is anyone going to tell me they can’t group together 12 people with a lot of gold to tilt the market into making more gold? I bet any platform could come up with 3 full trial groups of wealthy trading-minded players willing to form a cabal to control the market, each person patrolling 5 or 6 carts.
Right fracking there is the plan that destroys your decentralization protection. Gone. In the puff of a few sentences with a simple idea. Too many carts to monitor them all? Then get help so the task of patrolling carts is easy.
You were never protected by decentralized traders. It was always that the population can easily farm for what they want or use a substitute.
in every other post you have made on the topic of people trying to game the current system you say they fail (we already knew that) now you are saying they succeed.... a tad confusing.
No, there are two different variables at issue - centralization and public access. Apples and oranges, 2 separate things.
Over and over people cry alarm at the idea of making a centralized way to access the guild traders, claiming that one person could buy up everything and re-list. Using hard numbers, I argue that their fear is not possible to succeed, primarily because of inventory bottleneck and the way those deficits would bankrupt the tryhard in the ballpark of 30 million-plus each month. Also, people have already overcome the obstacle of running to many traders, so the argument in favor of protection by decentralization is a failure.
The actual defense against manipulation has always been the public’s participation. It is too easy to farm anything in this game for anyone to actually control the market. Look no further than the recent motif event and the impact on buoyant Armiger prices to see how the general public’s farming cannot be held at bay. Making a trader where all of the general public could list things would even further prevent market tampering. It doesn’t seem like it to the naked eye, but by the numbers 90% of the population only ever buys things from the trader carts.
If people love the decentralized trader model even though it does not protect them like they think, then surely they would STFU and be fine with a general public trader that EVERYONE could access at a bank or at a cart in every town, right? Like, at every multi cart town there is Dibbler, the public trader, the npc where every person can go list things for sale. Same npc in each area, but all are linked to the public access store, just like how you can have Tythis in all your houses but it’s always linked to your bank.
Keep in mind that intentional market manipulation is only one concern. I personally am much more concerned with the effect bots and gold farmers would have on a centralized system.
Bots already have influenced the market place. Your concern over bots affecting the market is by far too late. It is already happening. The damage is done, I'm guildless, I don't sell and I make more money than what I hear people at a good trading spot make in a week of selling. I don't even sell stuff to boot.
It's not a matter of damage being done or not, it's a matter of how much damage you want to be done. It's just like having bots in the game in the first place - you can never fully stop them; there WILL be bots, it's just a matter of how much will you try to limit them.
By making a system that literally makes it punishing to use it? Try looking for certain particular things and looking for it for months. Every single day for months...Ärmätèsz
Xbox NA
Guildless (by choice)2 -
Marginis✭✭✭✭✭The only thing the system needs is a HUGE update to UI, searches being the first thing needed. I don't know how many hours I've searched through pages and pages of motifs looking for a single one. Almost makes me not want to play.
On that we can all agree.@Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.2 -
Odnoc✭✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »um..... no.
current system works but the ui does need some serious attention.
Current system doesn't work for new comers, its all about who has played longest
Worked fine for me when I was a newcomer, and more recently when I switched from console to PC and was essentially "new" there.
What doesn't work for me is 99% of other MMO's, where entry level items cost 1000 x what they should.Edited by Odnoc on May 11, 2018 6:43PM0 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »um..... no.
current system works but the ui does need some serious attention.
Current system doesn't work for new comers, its all about who has played longest
Worked fine for me when I was a newcomer, and more recently when I switched from console to PC and was essentially "new" there.
What doesn't work for me is 99% of other MMO's, where entry level items cost 1000 x what they should.
So much easier to exploit this market system than it is with a centralized market place, alot easier to scam as well2 -
DHale✭✭✭✭✭
✭Never going to happen, and I am glad for it I got a complete set of ravagers for less than five k because little guild traders exist. I got a sharp ravagers axe for 400 gold... four hundred. Lots of competition keeps prices down. A central trader makes prices go up. I found five elf bane fire staves, four over 200 k and one for 15 k. Guess which one I purchased? You don’t have to have taken an economics class to know this.Sorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
Your post is quite off topic, but I'll bite. (I think major whale guilds have very little to do about the topic: central market)With a central trader, the market manipulation would be way too easy and this is not up for a debate. You can google market cornering or market manipulation in MMORPGs and hit several pages explaining it. But for the lazy ones, I'll give a quick run down how it works:
You decide a quite rare, but useful item to manipulate, let's say a potent nirncrux. And let's say it sells for 4 000 gold at the moment, but you want to sell it at 40 000 gold, what do you do? Well, you open the centralised store, put your potent nirncrux for sale for 40 000 gold and then, you buy everything under the price, every single 4 000 gold nirncrux. You do not have to sell them right away, you can stockpile 'em. Now others do not see those 4 000 gold nirncruxes, because you're buying them right away. The cheapest price others see is your stupid high 40 000 gold price and now some unfortunate people with a moderate amount of gold in their pocket and a need for a potent nirncrux will buy it for the lowest cost of 40 000 gold. You will as a seller use all the gold you earn to buy the low priced potent nirncruxes from the list, upkeeping the facade of "40 000 gold is the lowest price for potent nirncrux". At some point other sellers starts to sell them at 40 000 gold, because that is the selling point for potent nirncrux and no one wants to lose 36 000 profits. You will have thousands of poten nirncruxes in your pocket and you can keep selling them.
Now this is not possible on the current system because you can't buy easily every single low costing item, because you'd need to travel everywhere. And if you'd try to corner a single guild trader, everybody would stop buying the item from that trader.
As I explained earlier, this fantasy of yours has already failed on Xbox NA when some people bought up every aetherial dust and increased the prices from ~75k to a new price point of 100 to 110k.
They successfully kept buying all the lower listed dust. They kept relisting the items at their new desired price. They even convinced zone chat sellers that their price was valid because the inflated price was the only listing out there.
AND THEY FAILED.
They managed to corner the market on console, where the economy is even more decentralized than pc because we don’t have the automated harvesting of data from MM and TTC add ons smoothing out the jagged outliers.
And they still failed because this fantasy of yours does not take into consideration that the general public has the choice of buying or farming it themselves or finding a substitute. With any widespread commodity in eso, there are too many farmers for the market to be controlled like you imagine. It won’t happen with mats, there are too many subscribers with mats just piling up in the craft bag and more are as close as a farming route.
The arguments against a public trader have been debunked by how the real world attempts at manipulation failed - by not seeing that 5% cannot control the market created by the 95%.
As usual, this manipulation idea only works in theory until someone actually starts running the numbers on a population size scale. Using temp alloys for example, running like 9k each on Xbox NA. If I’m the 5% that is the wealthy manipulators looking to make them 15k, I’m trying to buy up all the alloys under that. But because I’m sucking up so many from the market, I’ve got 5% of the slots with 100% of the product. I need to sell them in pairs and fours and eights and in piles. If I don’t, I’m pumping huge amounts of gold into the economy and not bringing it back to me = inflation as more gold is sloshing around. A serious problem is the rise in price has inspired many people to take up farming, increasing supply and acting as a driver toward lower prices. And most fatal to my plan is those thousands of players with the craft bag, sitting there with hundreds of alloys doing nothing, or tens of thousands of various ore to refine into alloys, that get retrieved and starts getting listed at 14k, putting my deficit into overdrive.
This market manipulation theory is just that - a fantastical theory that does not actually function in THIS economy outside of fevered imaginative brains.
You missed my last paragraph: this manipulation is not possible on the current system. It is however possible on a central trading system, where you can see every single trade in a one single list and it works even better if you can search for spesific item in a said trade system. And with the example I gave with a theorised single global trader, I'd need to sell 1 potent nirncrux for 40 000 gold to cover 10x bought nirncruxes with the pricetag of 1. This kind of market manipulation is common in the AH/global singular trader system and there is tons of material and evidence that it has happenes before. The market manipulation is the primary reason for me to want to stay with the current ESO trade system, because the current system prevents it quite well.
Ok, think about this what if some major whale guilds decide to show up and bid out all the top end spots in every single go to spot so no one could have a trading guild there at all while they own it you won't be able to sell to the public at all, and its legit because ZoS allows it?
Ain't the major spots already owned by said whale guilds? I mean, all the big trade guilds owns a kiosk in either Rawl'Kha, Wayrest, Mournhold, Elden Root or Belkarth. If you mean that only a couple of guilds forms sub-guilds and buys every single major spot, well, they'd have to have a huge inventory of goodies and lots of time to make it profitable, else, they'd lose gold in millions.
And yes, it is legit to pay 10 million+ gold per trader spot which prevents smaller bids from getting the said trader, where's the problem? If my guild loses their bid, I'll either stockpile on goodies till our trade guild gets a good spot to sell, or find another trade guild to sell my goods.
Just saying this system is far worse than any centralized market system tbh
no it isn't.... it's far better because it makes it impossible for a single player to game the market.
anyway didn't you quit, aren't you supposed to be playing lotro now?
Are people not catching this?
I watched a small cabal completely conquer the small obstacle of having to go to a bunch of traders.
This barrier of a bunch of trader carts is not nearly as high as you think.
This is how easy it is:
Take 12 people. Divide up the carts so each person monitors 16 carts. Those 16 carts are that person’s patrol route.
12 people is a normal trial group. Is anyone going to tell me they can’t group together 12 people with a lot of gold to tilt the market into making more gold? I bet any platform could come up with 3 full trial groups of wealthy trading-minded players willing to form a cabal to control the market, each person patrolling 5 or 6 carts.
Right fracking there is the plan that destroys your decentralization protection. Gone. In the puff of a few sentences with a simple idea. Too many carts to monitor them all? Then get help so the task of patrolling carts is easy.
You were never protected by decentralized traders. It was always that the population can easily farm for what they want or use a substitute.
in every other post you have made on the topic of people trying to game the current system you say they fail (we already knew that) now you are saying they succeed.... a tad confusing.
No, there are two different variables at issue - centralization and public access. Apples and oranges, 2 separate things.
Over and over people cry alarm at the idea of making a centralized way to access the guild traders, claiming that one person could buy up everything and re-list. Using hard numbers, I argue that their fear is not possible to succeed, primarily because of inventory bottleneck and the way those deficits would bankrupt the tryhard in the ballpark of 30 million-plus each month. Also, people have already overcome the obstacle of running to many traders, so the argument in favor of protection by decentralization is a failure.
The actual defense against manipulation has always been the public’s participation. It is too easy to farm anything in this game for anyone to actually control the market. Look no further than the recent motif event and the impact on buoyant Armiger prices to see how the general public’s farming cannot be held at bay. Making a trader where all of the general public could list things would even further prevent market tampering. It doesn’t seem like it to the naked eye, but by the numbers 90% of the population only ever buys things from the trader carts.
If people love the decentralized trader model even though it does not protect them like they think, then surely they would STFU and be fine with a general public trader that EVERYONE could access at a bank or at a cart in every town, right? Like, at every multi cart town there is Dibbler, the public trader, the npc where every person can go list things for sale. Same npc in each area, but all are linked to the public access store, just like how you can have Tythis in all your houses but it’s always linked to your bank.
Keep in mind that intentional market manipulation is only one concern. I personally am much more concerned with the effect bots and gold farmers would have on a centralized system.
Bots already have influenced the market place. Your concern over bots affecting the market is by far too late. It is already happening. The damage is done, I'm guildless, I don't sell and I make more money than what I hear people at a good trading spot make in a week of selling. I don't even sell stuff to boot.
It's not a matter of damage being done or not, it's a matter of how much damage you want to be done. It's just like having bots in the game in the first place - you can never fully stop them; there WILL be bots, it's just a matter of how much will you try to limit them.
By making a system that literally makes it punishing to use it? Try looking for certain particular things and looking for it for months. Every single day for months...
i found it very easy to find things. tbh i found the ESO system is easier the ff14's.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭There is different value in having different traders. If you put all the traders in the same place, then there will be no way for new guilds to work their way up, or for smaller guilds to find a trader that suits their needs.
Love comments like these lol, implying that you can start a new guild, work your way up, and one day, YOU can have a trader in the middle of the biggest town!
Yeah, right... I'm on Xbox, I have taken months-long breaks due to college, going back about 3 years. The exact same guilds own the exact same traders now, and at every moment I have played. They are overly rich, bloated entities that cannot be budged. The system caters to GOUGING prices, not competitive pricing. A universal AH leads to people performing that always-hated tactic of 1-undering: Oh, they sell for 2000? I will sell for 1999!... however, the next person sells for 1998, then 1997, so on so forth. Eventually, prices reach a minimum point.
People crying the sky will fall if we do this, are most likely the ones gouging prices, and love the monopoly they have. Yes, I say players currently have monopolies, because it currently takes a remarkably few people (compared to the entire population) to set a price.
In most MMOs a monopoly occurs when a group of people buy EVERY item of a type, then put it back up for sale at the price THEY choose. In ESO, it occurs by a group of people owning every trader in the most popular spots, and knowing that the time it takes to go through all of them will keep sane players from going to other places after that (because they would like to actually PLAY the game, not just surf through the traders for a few hours). By doing this, they effectively have a monopoly, and can charge whatever they like.
A universal AH actually would build an economy. The one right now is the absolute extreme situation of robber baron form of capitalism, where the rich continue to become even more absurdly rich, and the poor just continue being, relatively, penniless.
I've seen universal AH system crash an economy. Look up ff11 in 2006 when every game servers economy crashed due to rmt. Look up the mass bans that took out guilds due to use of an exploit.
ff14 has undercutting issues that crash the economy.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭The only thing the system needs is a HUGE update to UI, searches being the first thing needed. I don't know how many hours I've searched through pages and pages of motifs looking for a single one. Almost makes me not want to play.
there is a search, explore the UI on the trade window motif search does come up.
If you can't find it, it just may not be around atm. Items do loose there new-ness and people grind for it less.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »um..... no.
current system works but the ui does need some serious attention.
Current system doesn't work for new comers, its all about who has played longest
Worked fine for me when I was a newcomer, and more recently when I switched from console to PC and was essentially "new" there.
What doesn't work for me is 99% of other MMO's, where entry level items cost 1000 x what they should.
So much easier to exploit this market system than it is with a centralized market place, alot easier to scam as well
simply not true.1 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »um..... no.
current system works but the ui does need some serious attention.
Current system doesn't work for new comers, its all about who has played longest
Worked fine for me when I was a newcomer, and more recently when I switched from console to PC and was essentially "new" there.
What doesn't work for me is 99% of other MMO's, where entry level items cost 1000 x what they should.
So much easier to exploit this market system than it is with a centralized market place, alot easier to scam as well
simply not true.
Really people make fake MM / TTC prices all the time that i've seen in zone chats also the fact someone conned someone out of a cipher for 2k a year ago by posting a fake price checkEdited by Cpt_Teemo on May 11, 2018 8:16PM0 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Never going to happen, and I am glad for it I got a complete set of ravagers for less than five k because little guild traders exist. I got a sharp ravagers axe for 400 gold... four hundred. Lots of competition keeps prices down. A central trader makes prices go up. I found five elf bane fire staves, four over 200 k and one for 15 k. Guess which one I purchased? You don’t have to have taken an economics class to know this.
probably because sharp doesn't sell for anything anymore since trait system0 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »um..... no.
current system works but the ui does need some serious attention.
Current system doesn't work for new comers, its all about who has played longest
Worked fine for me when I was a newcomer, and more recently when I switched from console to PC and was essentially "new" there.
What doesn't work for me is 99% of other MMO's, where entry level items cost 1000 x what they should.
So much easier to exploit this market system than it is with a centralized market place, alot easier to scam as well
simply not true.
Really people make fake MM / TTC prices all the time that i've seen in zone chats also the fact someone conned someone out of a cipher for 2k a year ago by posting a fake price check
then that is someone selling via zone rather than guild trader, try again.
anyway didn't you quit to play lotro or something?Edited by jedtb16_ESO on May 11, 2018 8:35PM3 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »um..... no.
current system works but the ui does need some serious attention.
Current system doesn't work for new comers, its all about who has played longest
Worked fine for me when I was a newcomer, and more recently when I switched from console to PC and was essentially "new" there.
What doesn't work for me is 99% of other MMO's, where entry level items cost 1000 x what they should.
So much easier to exploit this market system than it is with a centralized market place, alot easier to scam as well
How is it easier? Remember we are talking about the guild trader system here, not zone chat.
Sure there are some problems with the system we have but the answer isn't to go with a central market. A central market would make most the problems listed in this thread much worse.
and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I guess this proposal comes from someone who is not active in a trading guild, or does not see that many trading guilds are formed around their trader and what position it has on the market. Many guilds have lotteries, ranks, contests and social activities based on their trading performance. So having a few NPCs with a single auction house, like in WoW, would destroy all those guilds, just for the sake of easier browsing of stuff.
Speaking of easier browsing... MMOs like WoW, where this system works well (former wow player here), have their players spread across many servers, but imagine having all the daedric benches or hollowjack motifs from everyone, in one auction house! You would have hundreds of pages with the same thing.
The only thing the devs have to do with this system is to improve the UI, to allow us to have more filters, like crafting styles, known/unknown recipes, mostly stuff that awesome guild store does. I could do without a search function if more filters could be used.
OMG. A few thousand players would have to find new guilds so the millions of others can actually participate in the economy? The horror!Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax1 -
Sting864✭✭✭✭If people love the decentralized trader model even though it does not protect them like they think, then surely they would STFU and be fine with a general public trader that EVERYONE could access at a bank or at a cart in every town, right? Like, at every multi cart town there is Dibbler, the public trader, the npc where every person can go list things for sale. Same npc in each area, but all are linked to the public access store, just like how you can have Tythis in all your houses but it’s always linked to your bank.
Great idea... Why try to control many carts when you can just control Dibbler??0 -
Sting864✭✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »um..... no.
current system works but the ui does need some serious attention.
Current system doesn't work for new comers, its all about who has played longest
Worked fine for me when I was a newcomer, and more recently when I switched from console to PC and was essentially "new" there.
What doesn't work for me is 99% of other MMO's, where entry level items cost 1000 x what they should.
So much easier to exploit this market system than it is with a centralized market place, alot easier to scam as well
simply not true.
Really people make fake MM / TTC prices all the time that i've seen in zone chats also the fact someone conned someone out of a cipher for 2k a year ago by posting a fake price check
That's in your guild.... or a very parochial time/place... not true elsewhere....Edited by Sting864 on May 12, 2018 12:30AM0 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If people love the decentralized trader model even though it does not protect them like they think, then surely they would STFU and be fine with a general public trader that EVERYONE could access at a bank or at a cart in every town, right? Like, at every multi cart town there is Dibbler, the public trader, the npc where every person can go list things for sale. Same npc in each area, but all are linked to the public access store, just like how you can have Tythis in all your houses but it’s always linked to your bank.
Great idea... Why try to control many carts when you can just control Dibbler??
I believe what he meant was no one would have control of any vendor anymore, but rather multiple aucitioneers in different areas so one area doesn't get overflooded to search an entire game market as a whole1 -
Sting864✭✭✭✭
I believe what he meant was no one would have control of any vendor anymore, but rather multiple aucitioneers in different areas so one area doesn't get overflooded to search an entire game market as a whole
I believe what I meant is what I said... not what some buttinski thinks I said.....0 -
Avalon✭✭✭✭✭By making a system that literally makes it punishing to use it? Try looking for certain particular things and looking for it for months. Every single day for months...
Exactly... searching for months on end for a couple of motifs pretty well sucks. They are fairly common, probably only 20-30K (from what I have heard), but because it takes so friggin long to sort through all of the crap? For all I know, I missed them several times when my eyes began to blur from trying to get through the lists...Azuramoonstar wrote: »I've seen universal AH system crash an economy. Look up ff11 in 2006 when every game servers economy crashed due to rmt. Look up the mass bans that took out guilds due to use of an exploit.
ff14 has undercutting issues that crash the economy.
Those 'crashes' as you put it? Are the same as is happening here, but in reverse. In those economies, because there is a constant influx of money due to the game continually creating more and more, you end up with prices dropping to near nothing for some items; while people exploit vendor to AH pricing (vendor in some out of the way place charges 50 per whatever, and a player charges 200 per on the AH).
Here, because the game keeps creating more and more money, players continue to get more and more, and because players can, and DO, gouge the prices, we end up with people having 10-200 million gold, charging prices that are WAY over what the items actually SHOULD be worth. But, tell me, for any NEW players, what does that do? They aren't getting tens of thousands of gold daily, so, for them, it becomes an obstacle to wanting to continue playing. It isn't a "oh, you just want things handed to you" entitled BS type of thing... it is a "I'm 50 and over 200 CP, and I'm still not able to buy basic crap on the vendors" type of thing.
We have a crash continually going in ESO, but the long-time players don't see it, they are millionaires, they are established, they got in when the game could be "gotten into". Sure, we have a few that stick around now, but, "new players" are shown THIS AH system, and a lot of times also votekicked from dungeons for being low level, and so many other things. If the game starts losing veteran players, it has a hard time getting them back due to how things are. Hell, I'm a long time player since beta on PC, and because of college took a few months here and there, and even I am having problems getting back in.
So, just think what a brand new player thinks. (not one with friends who get them into the game, and help them, but NEW!)1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭By making a system that literally makes it punishing to use it? Try looking for certain particular things and looking for it for months. Every single day for months...
Exactly... searching for months on end for a couple of motifs pretty well sucks. They are fairly common, probably only 20-30K (from what I have heard), but because it takes so friggin long to sort through all of the crap? For all I know, I missed them several times when my eyes began to blur from trying to get through the lists...Azuramoonstar wrote: »I've seen universal AH system crash an economy. Look up ff11 in 2006 when every game servers economy crashed due to rmt. Look up the mass bans that took out guilds due to use of an exploit.
ff14 has undercutting issues that crash the economy.
Those 'crashes' as you put it? Are the same as is happening here, but in reverse. In those economies, because there is a constant influx of money due to the game continually creating more and more, you end up with prices dropping to near nothing for some items; while people exploit vendor to AH pricing (vendor in some out of the way place charges 50 per whatever, and a player charges 200 per on the AH).
Here, because the game keeps creating more and more money, players continue to get more and more, and because players can, and DO, gouge the prices, we end up with people having 10-200 million gold, charging prices that are WAY over what the items actually SHOULD be worth. But, tell me, for any NEW players, what does that do? They aren't getting tens of thousands of gold daily, so, for them, it becomes an obstacle to wanting to continue playing. It isn't a "oh, you just want things handed to you" entitled BS type of thing... it is a "I'm 50 and over 200 CP, and I'm still not able to buy basic crap on the vendors" type of thing.
We have a crash continually going in ESO, but the long-time players don't see it, they are millionaires, they are established, they got in when the game could be "gotten into". Sure, we have a few that stick around now, but, "new players" are shown THIS AH system, and a lot of times also votekicked from dungeons for being low level, and so many other things. If the game starts losing veteran players, it has a hard time getting them back due to how things are. Hell, I'm a long time player since beta on PC, and because of college took a few months here and there, and even I am having problems getting back in.
So, just think what a brand new player thinks. (not one with friends who get them into the game, and help them, but NEW!)
meanwhile prices for the most basic crafting materials have been on a downward price trend for a good long while now, or holding steady for even longer. What exactly is inflating in price if it's not a holiday or event exclusive? Even the ultra rare House furniture plans have been on a downward trend since being introduced.
There's very little in this game that is cost prohibitive3 -
MTijhuis✭✭✭To all the people that want a centralized marked place, because they find the prices in the big cities to expensive don't buy it.
The top trader spots in the game are based on sales. A lot of players are in this game are lazy and forget its a mmo rpg. You want a cheaper price travel around, look for the cheapest price. You find it to much work or still to expensive go farm the item yourself.
If more players travel around and buy more in other traders, you will have more top trader locations.
That’s not opinion, it is a fact that the great majority of players are excluded due to there being more people than guild traders could have.
1 trader cart = 500 people.
There are 191 carts in the game. 44 in each alliance and 59 in the neutral areas.
If zero people double up into more than one trader, and no guild masters used multiple accounts to buff their membership up to get a bank, that’s 95500 persons per server NA or EU, which is 191000 persons per gaming platform: pc or PlayStation or Xbox.
Last player count announcement I recall was 8million players, roughly even between Xbox / pc / PlayStation. That’s roughly 2.5 mill per platform.
There are enough trader carts per platform to give 191k people a public store. But there are 2500k people.
This however is a good argument. I personally don't experience this problem, on my platform. Anyone that ask for a traders guild in the main cities, can get in to one without paying fees. A lot of guilds on Xbox EU clean the rosters regularly and inactive people, longer than 2 weeks without notice get kicked. They are welcome when they want to sell items again.
But if this is a problem Zos should increase the amount of trading carts. This can be done by adding 4 more carts by the trader locations with 1 stall and increase the amount of players in a guild.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Neither.
What I find entertaining is after about 3 years of the current system provided a clearly robust and vibrant economy in ESO that there is a small group of players that think the occasional thread stating no valid reason for change (other than wanting the game to play like their last game) will bring about change.
Just a little clue, it is not changing. That is merely the reality of this regardless of what anyone has to say in reply.
Thank you, enjoy the game.1 -
Romo✭✭✭✭As an xbox one user I honestly would love a way to search a universal store page for guild traders. I don't like how some blueprints I am looking for are so unheard of by the majority of the people that I can't find it easily at all. Some of the blueprints I have been actively looking for over a year... over a year. Something has to be done to make it easier to search. I don't want to be searching all day at all the guild traders for just one item.
Chuckle...
Been looking for 1 thing for over 6 months. Took several days out of my routine to search the big guilds/ medium guilds/ little guilds. Still haven't found it.. a simple blue recipe.
But it wasn't a high ticket item so no one cares and doesn't put it on sale... sigh the wonderfulness of the current limited system...
But I did enjoy all the loading screens as I traveled around.... not.1 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »With a central trader, the market manipulation would be way too easy and this is not up for a debate. You can google market cornering or market manipulation in MMORPGs and hit several pages explaining it. But for the lazy ones, I'll give a quick run down how it works:
You decide a quite rare, but useful item to manipulate, let's say a potent nirncrux. And let's say it sells for 4 000 gold at the moment, but you want to sell it at 40 000 gold, what do you do? Well, you open the centralised store, put your potent nirncrux for sale for 40 000 gold and then, you buy everything under the price, every single 4 000 gold nirncrux. You do not have to sell them right away, you can stockpile 'em. Now others do not see those 4 000 gold nirncruxes, because you're buying them right away. The cheapest price others see is your stupid high 40 000 gold price and now some unfortunate people with a moderate amount of gold in their pocket and a need for a potent nirncrux will buy it for the lowest cost of 40 000 gold. You will as a seller use all the gold you earn to buy the low priced potent nirncruxes from the list, upkeeping the facade of "40 000 gold is the lowest price for potent nirncrux". At some point other sellers starts to sell them at 40 000 gold, because that is the selling point for potent nirncrux and no one wants to lose 36 000 profits. You will have thousands of poten nirncruxes in your pocket and you can keep selling them.
Now this is not possible on the current system because you can't buy easily every single low costing item, because you'd need to travel everywhere. And if you'd try to corner a single guild trader, everybody would stop buying the item from that trader.
As I explained earlier, this fantasy of yours has already failed on Xbox NA when some people bought up every aetherial dust and increased the prices from ~75k to a new price point of 100 to 110k.
They successfully kept buying all the lower listed dust. They kept relisting the items at their new desired price. They even convinced zone chat sellers that their price was valid because the inflated price was the only listing out there.
AND THEY FAILED.
They managed to corner the market on console, where the economy is even more decentralized than pc because we don’t have the automated harvesting of data from MM and TTC add ons smoothing out the jagged outliers.
And they still failed because this fantasy of yours does not take into consideration that the general public has the choice of buying or farming it themselves or finding a substitute. With any widespread commodity in eso, there are too many farmers for the market to be controlled like you imagine. It won’t happen with mats, there are too many subscribers with mats just piling up in the craft bag and more are as close as a farming route.
The arguments against a public trader have been debunked by how the real world attempts at manipulation failed - by not seeing that 5% cannot control the market created by the 95%.
As usual, this manipulation idea only works in theory until someone actually starts running the numbers on a population size scale. Using temp alloys for example, running like 9k each on Xbox NA. If I’m the 5% that is the wealthy manipulators looking to make them 15k, I’m trying to buy up all the alloys under that. But because I’m sucking up so many from the market, I’ve got 5% of the slots with 100% of the product. I need to sell them in pairs and fours and eights and in piles. If I don’t, I’m pumping huge amounts of gold into the economy and not bringing it back to me = inflation as more gold is sloshing around. A serious problem is the rise in price has inspired many people to take up farming, increasing supply and acting as a driver toward lower prices. And most fatal to my plan is those thousands of players with the craft bag, sitting there with hundreds of alloys doing nothing, or tens of thousands of various ore to refine into alloys, that get retrieved and starts getting listed at 14k, putting my deficit into overdrive.
This market manipulation theory is just that - a fantastical theory that does not actually function in THIS economy outside of fevered imaginative brains.
You missed my last paragraph: this manipulation is not possible on the current system. It is however possible on a central trading system, where you can see every single trade in a one single list and it works even better if you can search for spesific item in a said trade system. And with the example I gave with a theorised single global trader, I'd need to sell 1 potent nirncrux for 40 000 gold to cover 10x bought nirncruxes with the pricetag of 1. This kind of market manipulation is common in the AH/global singular trader system and there is tons of material and evidence that it has happenes before. The market manipulation is the primary reason for me to want to stay with the current ESO trade system, because the current system prevents it quite well.
Ok, think about this what if some major whale guilds decide to show up and bid out all the top end spots in every single go to spot so no one could have a trading guild there at all while they own it you won't be able to sell to the public at all, and its legit because ZoS allows it?
What in the blue blazes is a "whale guild"?
A whale is someone with a lot of money, specifically money to spend. Usually this refers to irl cash that is able to be tapped for microtransactions, but my guess is that here it simply refers to a guild that has a lot of money.
I know what a "whale" is.
(see my sig) but I'd never heard of an entire guild of 'em. Now I'm tempted to start asking in /zone if there are any "whale guilds" about. Could get interesting!
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake0 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only thing the system needs is a HUGE update to UI, searches being the first thing needed. I don't know how many hours I've searched through pages and pages of motifs looking for a single one. Almost makes me not want to play.
I hear that. I really don't understand how they ended up releasing in such a rudimentary form. Same bemusement as with the mail system.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake0 -
Motherball✭✭✭✭Neither.
What I find entertaining is after about 3 years of the current system provided a clearly robust and vibrant economy in ESO that there is a small group of players that think the occasional thread stating no valid reason for change (other than wanting the game to play like their last game) will bring about change.gmln
Just a little clue, it is not changing. That is merely the reality of this regardless of what anyone has to say in reply.
Thank you, enjoy the game.
The economy here is no better than most. Its probably worse considering the higher barrier to entry and lack of transparency. The valid reason for change is so that everyone has an equal chance to participate in the trading aspect of the game without using 3 mods or spending hours doing what could be done in a few clicks.
Regardless of what what you think you know, the developers probably would like to make a more streamlined and accessable trading system but are unable to for any number of reasons, least of all being the handful of players that actually enjoy the system how it currently is.0 -
Marginis✭✭✭✭✭Motherball wrote: »Neither.
What I find entertaining is after about 3 years of the current system provided a clearly robust and vibrant economy in ESO that there is a small group of players that think the occasional thread stating no valid reason for change (other than wanting the game to play like their last game) will bring about change.gmln
Just a little clue, it is not changing. That is merely the reality of this regardless of what anyone has to say in reply.
Thank you, enjoy the game.
The economy here is no better than most. Its probably worse considering the higher barrier to entry and lack of transparency. The valid reason for change is so that everyone has an equal chance to participate in the trading aspect of the game without using 3 mods or spending hours doing what could be done in a few clicks.
Regardless of what what you think you know, the developers probably would like to make a more streamlined and accessable trading system but are unable to for any number of reasons, least of all being the handful of players that actually enjoy the system how it currently is.
The idea is that we all agree the current system can be better, whether through something as small as little UI improvements or a bigger change like overhauling the system entirely. However, this thread specifically is offering up the idea of a centralized system, for which there are numerous significant problems. Very few are saying it's perfect as is, but very many are saying that the idea of a centralized system would be worse. One does not necessitate the other.@Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.0
