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Is Stamina Over Preforming
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Millz✭✭✭NoThe only people voting yes are either
A) People who have not played stamina
B ) People who have an inherent bias against stamina
C) People who think one class defines every stamina class period but are so ignorant that they then compare that one class to every magicka class
In all actuality, some facts for people who actually listen to logic, stamina fills its role, and magicka fills its role. Mobility is not something that is stam vs magicka unique, rather it is more so class based (sorcs have the highest) and build based (bow, speed pots, etc). Damage is class based. Tankiness is class based. Sustain is class based. The only difference between magicka and stamina is that stamina is pidgeonholed into using weapon skill lines much more then magicka is, with only having a few stamina morphs at their disposal. The only things overperforming are certain sets.
well spoken.... this is filled with people complaining about certain classes and not the overall outlookBrenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---0 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesThe only people voting yes are either
A) People who have not played stamina
B ) People who have an inherent bias against stamina
C) People who think one class defines every stamina class period but are so ignorant that they then compare that one class to every magicka class
In all actuality, some facts for people who actually listen to logic, stamina fills its role, and magicka fills its role. Mobility is not something that is stam vs magicka unique, rather it is more so class based (sorcs have the highest) and build based (bow, speed pots, etc). Damage is class based. Tankiness is class based. Sustain is class based. The only difference between magicka and stamina is that stamina is pidgeonholed into using weapon skill lines much more then magicka is, with only having a few stamina morphs at their disposal. The only things overperforming are certain sets.
well spoken.... this is filled with people complaining about certain classes and not the overall outlook
The counter to damage shields is damage
The counter to dodge is AoE which may or may not be easily available nor will it do much damage to a roll spammer
The counter to block is to CC someone out of it or hit them with low damaging and low costing attacks to drain them of stamina
Also stam builds can reliably CC break (This is my main issue I have. The rest can sorta be worked with but at a certain point this gets stupid)Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesCatchMeTrolling wrote: »Magic dominates large scale, stamina dominates small scale. This topic comes up all the time filled with bias because people choose to favor one or the other. Then theres some people who never played both and not to mention those with little experience with the classes as a whole.
This is exactly the issue here. I don't get this large scale mag is for utility nonsense. Its used as a very nice excuse to justify the result of this poll.
Not sure how much difference it makes on class type / gear / race if you are running in a 40 man zerg soul assaulting/ jesus beaming.
I don't even consider that to be PVP in any shape or form.Edited by PhoenixGrey on May 8, 2018 5:39PM0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesStamina is overperforming in smallscale and 1vX in PvP, anyone deying it is stupid or want to stay op.
There is few reasons why it's OP when you look at the average magicka toolkit.
Mobility is better on stamina classes than on magicka ones, heavy armor lingering + speed potion guy can chase a streaking sorc by using sprint. They also have acces to 2 gap closer from weapons skill lines. They also have snare removal and immunity.
Tankiness there is nothing more tanky than a good stamina build. The combinasion of high mitigation + high healing (vigor + rally + class cheese) + lingering potion + S&B block + dodge roll (+ Major evasion).
Single target damage the damage output by stamina is just overperforming : they have acces to a good frontloaded and untelegraphed burst with downbreakerof overpoweredsmitting while also having the best spammable in the game aka Heroic slash which combine with light attack + bash make more damage than wrecking blow. They also have a super execute (steel tornado and rever slice).
Utility they hare overpeforming when you look at magicka classes because they have extremely selfish utility. MAJOR DEFILE is the only way to kill a S&B healing machine, guess hwo have it ? Stamina (execpt magblade). They have minor main, minor heroism and can also have major breach and major fracture.
For all theze reasons, they are overperforming.
Oh my this is wrong on so many levels:
You tell us players have access to snare removal, rally, major evasion, blocking, and heavy armor at the same time?
Either you are running medium with rally and have shuffle as snare removal with major evasion.
Or you run heavy with Forward Momentum and no major evasion.
Everyone can run speed+ lingering health potions.
By frontloaded burst you are talking about stamnb and nothing else.
All other classes don't have frontloaded burst sure they can use DBoS but that doesn't kill anyone unless they're bad.
Stamwarden has 3 sec cooldown before shalks go off
Stamplar needs 6 seconds of constant pressure to get full burst with PotL while jabs is also a channel
Stamdk and burst? Lul
Stamsorc doesn't feature any special burst mechanics and Heroic + bash + LA does as much damage as LA+ magicka spammable or even less. (Actual in game testing and not biased forum crying that this post is filled with)
There is one stamina spec that can force to stay alive in 1v1 and that is stamwarden, all others are easily killable with OW specs (lul at stamina in duels with Summerset you won't see one of them in duels when people are tryharding)
Ofc i can run around a tree a million times but i won't gain anything from that, not gonna be able to kill someone with that.
On my light armor magdk, magplar, magnb and magsorc i can easily survive any OW 1v1 by spamming my normal class heals or defence methods while things like my stamnb, stamplar or stamdk can be worn down with defiles etc. a stamina spec only has this much healing as soon as you can apply more pressure his time is limited and he'll die.
Survivability for both specs is the same with an advantage for magicka with actual in combat survivability and stamina with a better survivability against numbers which doesn't matter as much as people say it does. If i can kill them with the stamspec with LOS they are bad enough to be killed in open combat with a magicka spec and if they kill me the magicka spec would've died aswell.
Utility you want to tell us stamina has better utility than magicka? I guess that's the reason there is 1 stamspec in organized groups and that's a rapids spammer.
Let's see what the different classes provide as utility:
All: Vigor (1k hps)
DK: no utility for stamdk that magdk couldn't provide better
Templar: Same
Sorc: Same
NB: Same again
Warden: Tied but stamwarden wins because it's better overall
About major defile if one player slots Duroks he's more effective at keeping it up than any group of stamina player are vs a equally sized group.
Also stamina is punished more by defiles as they don't have access to shields.
Balance between magicka and stamina is better than it ever was. There are 2 stamina specs which are overperfoming with stamnb and stamwarden while 2 stamspecs are underperforming, stamdk and stamplar.
This will change with Summerset, stamina got a huge hit while magicka got buffed.
Some of you are stuck in Elder Robes online when stamina didn't exist.
I can Pick the things about pvp and make it look as if stamina was totally useless:
Duels: Nothing touches an pet sorc
Small scale: Full magicka group will always win vs a full stamina group
Lange scale: There is space for 1 stamina spec in organized groups and he's forced to spam rapids.
See stamina needs to be buffed because it's bad.
But that's not how it works because player skill decides who wins fights and who's better. If we get all tools removed that decide battles without skill needed and people started to play all classes you'd realise how good balance actually is.
TL:DR: This post is filled with people who lack experience. The current Magicka and Stamina balance in Dragon Bones is the best we've ever had.
You really need to learn to read.
1. I put major evasion between parentheses because you can either run heavy armor + FM or Fortified brass/Impregnable + major evasion. Also, heavybleedblade can have heavy armor + major evasion, but it's not the question here.
2. Lingering + speed potion are meta for stamina because it give them better mobility and an other HoT, and it's usable mostly on stamina because they don't need sustain thx to easy heavies that return ressource, also a HoT on a high mitigation build is better than a hot on low mitigation build. Do you play stamina ?
3. Frontloaded burst is anything that's bursty with a part that's not telegraphed. Dawn breaker of smiting is a part of it because the front damage is huge and the dot (bound on the ennemy) is huge too, and it also stun. The 20% more damage incap have is in way here with DBoS because the dot is strong and bound on ennmieS. If you POTL every 6s the ennemy, he can't know when you will DB him.
4. Light attack + heroic slash + bash deal more damage than any regular light attack + skill spammable, you can't deny it or you need to l2p ur stamina damage.
4. S&B + HoT tankiness is miles away from magicka. It's extremely hard to kill a S&B healing machine without defile, magsorc, magden, magtemplar and magdk doesn't have reliable access to it. Stamina does. You say it yourself, you need defile and magicka doesn't have it. Not even speaking about passive healing and active defense.
5. Stamina have better survivability when fighting, and that's the only that matter, being 100% defensive all the time has just no sense when you look at smallscale and solo PvP. You can 1vX easier on stamina than on magicka because your defense are mostly passives defenses, when a sorc is pressured he shield and does nothing else, when a templar or dk are pressured they heal and thy are also stuck in the spam, as a stamina user you can HoT your HP and still doing damage or mitigate extremely well damage by blocking.
6. It's false, stamina is better for duel and for smallscale than magicka, magicka is only clearly better for large zerg fest.
7. Shield is trash and don't compete at all with HoT + high mitigation + block. Hardened ward is removed in 2s by S&B light attack/heroic slash/bash, guess what's happen when outnumbered ? U can spam until OOM or try to run away, but you can't fighting decent players.
8.I said stamina has a selfish utility, that's why they are better in solo/smallscale. l2r.
9. I never said the balance wasn't the best we got. It's a good start, but something need to be done, especially with defile access. Every one should be able to defile in a game where it's mandatory to kill non potaoes players heal based build (80%-90% of the builds).
I’m starting to think you are just a sub par player based on some of the points you’ve made. In contingency, the number of logical fallacies you committed, particularly false cause, completely negates most of your credibility and argument.
Explain me what's false
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The only people voting yes are either
A) People who have not played stamina
B ) People who have an inherent bias against stamina
C) People who think one class defines every stamina class period but are so ignorant that they then compare that one class to every magicka class
In all actuality, some facts for people who actually listen to logic, stamina fills its role, and magicka fills its role. Mobility is not something that is stam vs magicka unique, rather it is more so class based (sorcs have the highest) and build based (bow, speed pots, etc). Damage is class based. Tankiness is class based. Sustain is class based. The only difference between magicka and stamina is that stamina is pidgeonholed into using weapon skill lines much more then magicka is, with only having a few stamina morphs at their disposal. The only things overperforming are certain sets.
well spoken.... this is filled with people complaining about certain classes and not the overall outlook
The counter to damage shields is damage
The counter to dodge is AoE which may or may not be easily available nor will it do much damage to a roll spammer
The counter to block is to CC someone out of it or hit them with low damaging and low costing attacks to drain them of stamina
Also stam builds can reliably CC break (This is my main issue I have. The rest can sorta be worked with but at a certain point this gets stupid)
Adding to this, shields are more or less easy to deal with if you can time your cc around their duration ending.
Some undodgable attacks are generally unavoidable. Like sticky burst from Sorc or Templars using unstable core.
Blocking I agree is easy to counter, but sucks if you are a Templar trying to cc since we don't have that in our kit as unblockable. We at least have some dots, but magplar doesn't have a cheap option for this. Stamplar at least has bleeds.
Either way, your build should block, dodge roll, have a shield to help negate status effects from disease enchants (unless you roll OP argonian), and be able to heal enough to survive all that burst. For stamina, that means moving some benefit off dodge roll and into block/heals so you can at least block/dodge with equal strength so your heals get boosted by reducing/avoiding as much DMG as you can.
I think stamina overperforms compared to mag builds; hard to beat 2k Regen on a stat that shares resources with break free and stamina return on heavy attacks that can deal/have synergy with the weapon lines they are attached too (not to mention the DMG potential from both less physical resist and ability to stack more weapon DMG with Stam builds; mag builds have to fight against almost cap resists in most fights depending on your event). If mag staffs had their Regen ignore block, then I think mag builds could see the gap tighten enough to suggest the two architypes are just flavor/playstyle choices. But break free still remains a tough cookie to balance around and you can see who lives and dies based around this.
In some ways, I think putting warlord back on dodge roll star, will help out mag builds more than making the gap wider. But in nCP GG lolEdited by Minno on May 9, 2018 4:04PMMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Adenoma✭✭✭✭✭
✭SortaWithout even addressing other aspects of this discussion, I just want to chime in and say that the single most important/empowering class to small scale players is the magicka templar.
The difference in strength my regular playgroup of 2-6 has between groups when we do have a magplar healing and when we don't is enormous. The combined impact of having someone in Durok's/Transmutation/Blood Spawn who cycles resto ults, puts out huge defiles, and has silly strong burst healing/tankiness can keep us up through really silly things. At the same time they through out luminous shards left and right to let folks run more damage and emphasize sustain less. With extended ritual they're pooping out a nice snare so that it's hard for people to keep up with us when we're retreating.
I agree that there are balance issues with shimmering shield and stamwarden, incap and stamNB, and poor ultimate diversity/snare removal for magicka builds, but I really hope that people play out the next patch a bit before we start begging for more nerfs to stamina classes. There's a lot of pessimism on the PTS forum and I've played party to that at times, but each time it generally turns out to still be a playable game despite all the bombastic rhetoric and end of the world predictions.
I think the real question here that I can't find a single person who will answer is if Sloads stacks.Adenoma-Badenoma-Sadenoma2 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Amberplasm +Shacklebreaker + Bloodpsawn , and you are good to go .
That's alot of burst damage given up. This is where I believe the problem with Magicka starts. You have to build like this to be successful. You basically give up your burst to sustain your overly expensive abilities. Where as stamina you can use fury and ravenger and be crazy tanky while also having ridiculous burst. Both builds are good but the stamina build will be much easier and forgiving to play.3 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoStamina is overperforming in smallscale and 1vX in PvP, anyone deying it is stupid or want to stay op.
There is few reasons why it's OP when you look at the average magicka toolkit.
Mobility is better on stamina classes than on magicka ones, heavy armor lingering + speed potion guy can chase a streaking sorc by using sprint. They also have acces to 2 gap closer from weapons skill lines. They also have snare removal and immunity.
Tankiness there is nothing more tanky than a good stamina build. The combinasion of high mitigation + high healing (vigor + rally + class cheese) + lingering potion + S&B block + dodge roll (+ Major evasion).
Single target damage the damage output by stamina is just overperforming : they have acces to a good frontloaded and untelegraphed burst with downbreakerof overpoweredsmitting while also having the best spammable in the game aka Heroic slash which combine with light attack + bash make more damage than wrecking blow. They also have a super execute (steel tornado and rever slice).
Utility they hare overpeforming when you look at magicka classes because they have extremely selfish utility. MAJOR DEFILE is the only way to kill a S&B healing machine, guess hwo have it ? Stamina (execpt magblade). They have minor main, minor heroism and can also have major breach and major fracture.
For all theze reasons, they are overperforming.
Oh my this is wrong on so many levels:
You tell us players have access to snare removal, rally, major evasion, blocking, and heavy armor at the same time?
Either you are running medium with rally and have shuffle as snare removal with major evasion.
Or you run heavy with Forward Momentum and no major evasion.
Everyone can run speed+ lingering health potions.
By frontloaded burst you are talking about stamnb and nothing else.
All other classes don't have frontloaded burst sure they can use DBoS but that doesn't kill anyone unless they're bad.
Stamwarden has 3 sec cooldown before shalks go off
Stamplar needs 6 seconds of constant pressure to get full burst with PotL while jabs is also a channel
Stamdk and burst? Lul
Stamsorc doesn't feature any special burst mechanics and Heroic + bash + LA does as much damage as LA+ magicka spammable or even less. (Actual in game testing and not biased forum crying that this post is filled with)
There is one stamina spec that can force to stay alive in 1v1 and that is stamwarden, all others are easily killable with OW specs (lul at stamina in duels with Summerset you won't see one of them in duels when people are tryharding)
Ofc i can run around a tree a million times but i won't gain anything from that, not gonna be able to kill someone with that.
On my light armor magdk, magplar, magnb and magsorc i can easily survive any OW 1v1 by spamming my normal class heals or defence methods while things like my stamnb, stamplar or stamdk can be worn down with defiles etc. a stamina spec only has this much healing as soon as you can apply more pressure his time is limited and he'll die.
Survivability for both specs is the same with an advantage for magicka with actual in combat survivability and stamina with a better survivability against numbers which doesn't matter as much as people say it does. If i can kill them with the stamspec with LOS they are bad enough to be killed in open combat with a magicka spec and if they kill me the magicka spec would've died aswell.
Utility you want to tell us stamina has better utility than magicka? I guess that's the reason there is 1 stamspec in organized groups and that's a rapids spammer.
Let's see what the different classes provide as utility:
All: Vigor (1k hps)
DK: no utility for stamdk that magdk couldn't provide better
Templar: Same
Sorc: Same
NB: Same again
Warden: Tied but stamwarden wins because it's better overall
About major defile if one player slots Duroks he's more effective at keeping it up than any group of stamina player are vs a equally sized group.
Also stamina is punished more by defiles as they don't have access to shields.
Balance between magicka and stamina is better than it ever was. There are 2 stamina specs which are overperfoming with stamnb and stamwarden while 2 stamspecs are underperforming, stamdk and stamplar.
This will change with Summerset, stamina got a huge hit while magicka got buffed.
Some of you are stuck in Elder Robes online when stamina didn't exist.
I can Pick the things about pvp and make it look as if stamina was totally useless:
Duels: Nothing touches an pet sorc
Small scale: Full magicka group will always win vs a full stamina group
Lange scale: There is space for 1 stamina spec in organized groups and he's forced to spam rapids.
See stamina needs to be buffed because it's bad.
But that's not how it works because player skill decides who wins fights and who's better. If we get all tools removed that decide battles without skill needed and people started to play all classes you'd realise how good balance actually is.
TL:DR: This post is filled with people who lack experience. The current Magicka and Stamina balance in Dragon Bones is the best we've ever had.
You really need to learn to read.
1. I put major evasion between parentheses because you can either run heavy armor + FM or Fortified brass/Impregnable + major evasion. Also, heavybleedblade can have heavy armor + major evasion, but it's not the question here.
2. Lingering + speed potion are meta for stamina because it give them better mobility and an other HoT, and it's usable mostly on stamina because they don't need sustain thx to easy heavies that return ressource, also a HoT on a high mitigation build is better than a hot on low mitigation build. Do you play stamina ?
3. Frontloaded burst is anything that's bursty with a part that's not telegraphed. Dawn breaker of smiting is a part of it because the front damage is huge and the dot (bound on the ennemy) is huge too, and it also stun. The 20% more damage incap have is in way here with DBoS because the dot is strong and bound on ennmieS. If you POTL every 6s the ennemy, he can't know when you will DB him.
4. Light attack + heroic slash + bash deal more damage than any regular light attack + skill spammable, you can't deny it or you need to l2p ur stamina damage.
4. S&B + HoT tankiness is miles away from magicka. It's extremely hard to kill a S&B healing machine without defile, magsorc, magden, magtemplar and magdk doesn't have reliable access to it. Stamina does. You say it yourself, you need defile and magicka doesn't have it. Not even speaking about passive healing and active defense.
5. Stamina have better survivability when fighting, and that's the only that matter, being 100% defensive all the time has just no sense when you look at smallscale and solo PvP. You can 1vX easier on stamina than on magicka because your defense are mostly passives defenses, when a sorc is pressured he shield and does nothing else, when a templar or dk are pressured they heal and thy are also stuck in the spam, as a stamina user you can HoT your HP and still doing damage or mitigate extremely well damage by blocking.
6. It's false, stamina is better for duel and for smallscale than magicka, magicka is only clearly better for large zerg fest.
7. Shield is trash and don't compete at all with HoT + high mitigation + block. Hardened ward is removed in 2s by S&B light attack/heroic slash/bash, guess what's happen when outnumbered ? U can spam until OOM or try to run away, but you can't fighting decent players.
8.I said stamina has a selfish utility, that's why they are better in solo/smallscale. l2r.
9. I never said the balance wasn't the best we got. It's a good start, but something need to be done, especially with defile access. Every one should be able to defile in a game where it's mandatory to kill non potaoes players heal based build (80%-90% of the builds).
I’m starting to think you are just a sub par player based on some of the points you’ve made. In contingency, the number of logical fallacies you committed, particularly false cause, completely negates most of your credibility and argument.
Explain me what's false
Lol....you clearly do not know what logical fallacies are...i encourage you to go read up on them ~ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooterthankyourat wrote: »Amberplasm +Shacklebreaker + Bloodpsawn , and you are good to go .
That's alot of burst damage given up. This is where I believe the problem with Magicka starts. You have to build like this to be successful. You basically give up your burst to sustain your overly expensive abilities. Where as stamina you can use fury and ravenger and be crazy tanky while also having ridiculous burst. Both builds are good but the stamina build will be much easier and forgiving to play.
Not sure what class you're talking about but that is definately not the case with all stamina builds. Stamplar has the WORST sustain in the game and we have to sacrifice the most damage to make up for it, more then any magicka class needs to. Because I am not biased, I will admit that classes like stam sorc, stamblade and stam dk have insanely good sustain, making it easier for them to stack raw damage while magicka classes must stack sustain and account for stam sustain. However this is counteracted by the abundance of good magicka sets in the game. My mag sorc and mag nb get stats that my stamplar nor magplar can hold a torch to.The only people voting yes are either
A) People who have not played stamina
B ) People who have an inherent bias against stamina
C) People who think one class defines every stamina class period but are so ignorant that they then compare that one class to every magicka class
In all actuality, some facts for people who actually listen to logic, stamina fills its role, and magicka fills its role. Mobility is not something that is stam vs magicka unique, rather it is more so class based (sorcs have the highest) and build based (bow, speed pots, etc). Damage is class based. Tankiness is class based. Sustain is class based. The only difference between magicka and stamina is that stamina is pidgeonholed into using weapon skill lines much more then magicka is, with only having a few stamina morphs at their disposal. The only things overperforming are certain sets.
well spoken.... this is filled with people complaining about certain classes and not the overall outlook
The counter to damage shields is damage
The counter to dodge is AoE which may or may not be easily available nor will it do much damage to a roll spammer
The counter to block is to CC someone out of it or hit them with low damaging and low costing attacks to drain them of stamina
Also stam builds can reliably CC break (This is my main issue I have. The rest can sorta be worked with but at a certain point this gets stupid)
If you can't sustain your stamina that is a L2P issue, not a spec issue. As someone who's mained stamplar & magplar since the game launched I can comfortably say I sustain my stamina far easier on my magplar than my stamplar.Edited by templesus on May 10, 2018 9:10PM0 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yesthankyourat wrote: »@NyassaV you’re just coming off as someone who gets stomped by stamina builds all the time and would rather have them nerfed than get better. But don’t worry they are getting indirectly nerfed next patch thanks to the myriad of new skills and buffs coming to magicka users. But something tells me that won’t make much of a difference for you.
Even if Magicka was getting big buffs in the next patch which I don't think they are. Stamina would still be better because of their mobility. Generally speaking Magicka pretty much needs to use multiple utility sets to function as well as having sustained damage instead of burst damage. So what you end up having is Magicka users having to try to find a way to be tanky in light armor because there aren't really any good Magicka heavy armor sets, as well as being slow with low burst damage. Magicka shines with the group utility they provide but if you don't have a group or you play a smaller group you are better off playing stamina
True, but here’s where we have to be careful with these kinds of blanket posts regarding one entire playstyle as in “stamina is op,” because magicka builds do have far better access to skills and imo a good mag sorc or magblade can be just as bursty as a stam build but it takes more skill to do so and has less viability against multiple opponents at once where as stam just drops DBoS and and goes with steel tornado, reverse slice etc. But because mag already has the option of range, many many class skills with varying effects and shields it’s a tricky balance to just say oh make them tankier or here’s snare removal built into the light armor shield or whatever. I really don’t think we should say that stamina is over performing it’s just too much of a generalization, as we all know Stam DKs, sorcs and Templars are pretty well balanced or evenness unfer performing in some areas. Am I against mag builds have access to a snare removal? No, I think it’s okay to have one as long as it’s not attached to a bunch of other op stuff and we’d have to start with that and then see what else needs adjustment. I’m a stam sorc main and primarily play stam but I can jump on my ranged magblade after months of not playing and still be amazed and how I can stop people from even getting near me before they’re dead. Part of playing that is learning to stay at range and use that distance to avoid getting locked down. And I can easily see how a built in snare removal would make the class way to difficult to fight against.
Consider this. A magsorc has about the same potential to reset a fight as a stamblade. However due to the fact that stamina abilities are 20% less in cost most stamina builds will outlast the sorc
Ok yes stam abilities cost less, BUT, magicka almost always has a mag pool that is higher than a stam pool by anywhere from 4K to 10k. I’d say the average stam build has 34k stam and on a mag build it’s easy to hit 39k. On the extreme you have stam builds working with a little over 30k stam and mag builds that go as high as 44k maybe more? You’re picking very select facts and ignoring some important points. So now you’re calling for stamina nerfs based on “facts” that fit your agenda. And this is why classes and skills end up becoming trash. I have no more of an issue sustaining on my magblade or magplar than I do any of my stam classes. In fact stamplar is downright painful in the sustain department and stamina warden is the exception in that it’s too easy to sustain.
You realize that extra 10k is like 2 skills right?Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoThe only people voting yes are either
A) People who have not played stamina
B ) People who have an inherent bias against stamina
C) People who think one class defines every stamina class period but are so ignorant that they then compare that one class to every magicka class
In all actuality, some facts for people who actually listen to logic, stamina fills its role, and magicka fills its role. Mobility is not something that is stam vs magicka unique, rather it is more so class based (sorcs have the highest) and build based (bow, speed pots, etc). Damage is class based. Tankiness is class based. Sustain is class based. The only difference between magicka and stamina is that stamina is pidgeonholed into using weapon skill lines much more then magicka is, with only having a few stamina morphs at their disposal. The only things overperforming are certain sets.
well spoken.... this is filled with people complaining about certain classes and not the overall outlook
The counter to damage shields is damage
The counter to dodge is AoE which may or may not be easily available nor will it do much damage to a roll spammer
The counter to block is to CC someone out of it or hit them with low damaging and low costing attacks to drain them of stamina
Also stam builds can reliably CC break (This is my main issue I have. The rest can sorta be worked with but at a certain point this gets stupid)
"The counter to damage shields is damage."
Amazing tactical knowledge their sun tzu. Everything's counter if you think about it, is damage. Shields are the only one with out a normal specific type that goes through, oblivion goes through all so its hardly a counter. Shields are kind of excusable whilst things like rollerblades exist, because of bad 1vX scaling and certain classes having limited defense.
Also, dots, burst on targets, AoEs and specialized undodgables abilities go through dodge. Its only a problem on EZblade where cloak carries as a stronger dodge because it does dots too whist being untargetted, whilst then allowing the dodge timer to reset, AND on a stam build its easy to avoid snares and roots.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.3 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesAmberplasm +Shacklebreaker + Bloodpsawn , and you are good to go .
Or I could just swap to stam, run Fury+Truth, and have no sustain issues in 5 heavy while having 5k+ weapon damage and 10% bonus damage from Tactician. I run 1.1k regen on my stamden in that exact setup listed above and never run of resources. That's a balance issue.ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/172 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Noarkansas_ESO wrote: »Amberplasm +Shacklebreaker + Bloodpsawn , and you are good to go .
Or I could just swap to stam, run Fury+Truth, and have no sustain issues in 5 heavy while having 5k+ weapon damage and 10% bonus damage from Tactician. I run 1.1k regen on my stamden in that exact setup listed above and never run of resources. That's a balance issue.
That's a Warden and Race balance issue, not a Stamina balance issue. Shimmering Shield on Warden is broken even with the cost increase. It's morph returns Magicka which allows you to keep it up constantly. And the only reason you're able to sustain with 1.1k regen is because of stupid Race balancing with Redguard and Argonian that regens similar Stamina with 1.1k regen as other Races do with 2k regen.
Go create a Nord Stamina Dragonkinght with Fury+Truth and see how OP you are in Cyrodiil the moment you have more than 1 person attacking you.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nousmguy1234 wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »@NyassaV you’re just coming off as someone who gets stomped by stamina builds all the time and would rather have them nerfed than get better. But don’t worry they are getting indirectly nerfed next patch thanks to the myriad of new skills and buffs coming to magicka users. But something tells me that won’t make much of a difference for you.
Even if Magicka was getting big buffs in the next patch which I don't think they are. Stamina would still be better because of their mobility. Generally speaking Magicka pretty much needs to use multiple utility sets to function as well as having sustained damage instead of burst damage. So what you end up having is Magicka users having to try to find a way to be tanky in light armor because there aren't really any good Magicka heavy armor sets, as well as being slow with low burst damage. Magicka shines with the group utility they provide but if you don't have a group or you play a smaller group you are better off playing stamina
True, but here’s where we have to be careful with these kinds of blanket posts regarding one entire playstyle as in “stamina is op,” because magicka builds do have far better access to skills and imo a good mag sorc or magblade can be just as bursty as a stam build but it takes more skill to do so and has less viability against multiple opponents at once where as stam just drops DBoS and and goes with steel tornado, reverse slice etc. But because mag already has the option of range, many many class skills with varying effects and shields it’s a tricky balance to just say oh make them tankier or here’s snare removal built into the light armor shield or whatever. I really don’t think we should say that stamina is over performing it’s just too much of a generalization, as we all know Stam DKs, sorcs and Templars are pretty well balanced or evenness unfer performing in some areas. Am I against mag builds have access to a snare removal? No, I think it’s okay to have one as long as it’s not attached to a bunch of other op stuff and we’d have to start with that and then see what else needs adjustment. I’m a stam sorc main and primarily play stam but I can jump on my ranged magblade after months of not playing and still be amazed and how I can stop people from even getting near me before they’re dead. Part of playing that is learning to stay at range and use that distance to avoid getting locked down. And I can easily see how a built in snare removal would make the class way to difficult to fight against.
Consider this. A magsorc has about the same potential to reset a fight as a stamblade. However due to the fact that stamina abilities are 20% less in cost most stamina builds will outlast the sorc
Ok yes stam abilities cost less, BUT, magicka almost always has a mag pool that is higher than a stam pool by anywhere from 4K to 10k. I’d say the average stam build has 34k stam and on a mag build it’s easy to hit 39k. On the extreme you have stam builds working with a little over 30k stam and mag builds that go as high as 44k maybe more? You’re picking very select facts and ignoring some important points. So now you’re calling for stamina nerfs based on “facts” that fit your agenda. And this is why classes and skills end up becoming trash. I have no more of an issue sustaining on my magblade or magplar than I do any of my stam classes. In fact stamplar is downright painful in the sustain department and stamina warden is the exception in that it’s too easy to sustain.
You realize that extra 10k is like 2 skills right?
Thankfully magicka gets 600 regen just from doing damage to an enemy with minor magickasteal.
Also remember that key elements of stamina survivability completely stops regen (sprint and block).
Magicka and Stamina is well balanced in terms of damage, survivability, sustain and overall performance with 2 stamina classes being way too strong and 2 being too weak.
If we use stamsorc as an average for stamina, as it's currently the only spec that isn't over or underperforming, and then make an average of the magickaspecs and compare these two we can see that they are very similar yet so different.
Equal Balance doesn't require mirror balance it just means that you can get about the same RoI from all of them.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nousmguy1234 wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »@NyassaV you’re just coming off as someone who gets stomped by stamina builds all the time and would rather have them nerfed than get better. But don’t worry they are getting indirectly nerfed next patch thanks to the myriad of new skills and buffs coming to magicka users. But something tells me that won’t make much of a difference for you.
Even if Magicka was getting big buffs in the next patch which I don't think they are. Stamina would still be better because of their mobility. Generally speaking Magicka pretty much needs to use multiple utility sets to function as well as having sustained damage instead of burst damage. So what you end up having is Magicka users having to try to find a way to be tanky in light armor because there aren't really any good Magicka heavy armor sets, as well as being slow with low burst damage. Magicka shines with the group utility they provide but if you don't have a group or you play a smaller group you are better off playing stamina
True, but here’s where we have to be careful with these kinds of blanket posts regarding one entire playstyle as in “stamina is op,” because magicka builds do have far better access to skills and imo a good mag sorc or magblade can be just as bursty as a stam build but it takes more skill to do so and has less viability against multiple opponents at once where as stam just drops DBoS and and goes with steel tornado, reverse slice etc. But because mag already has the option of range, many many class skills with varying effects and shields it’s a tricky balance to just say oh make them tankier or here’s snare removal built into the light armor shield or whatever. I really don’t think we should say that stamina is over performing it’s just too much of a generalization, as we all know Stam DKs, sorcs and Templars are pretty well balanced or evenness unfer performing in some areas. Am I against mag builds have access to a snare removal? No, I think it’s okay to have one as long as it’s not attached to a bunch of other op stuff and we’d have to start with that and then see what else needs adjustment. I’m a stam sorc main and primarily play stam but I can jump on my ranged magblade after months of not playing and still be amazed and how I can stop people from even getting near me before they’re dead. Part of playing that is learning to stay at range and use that distance to avoid getting locked down. And I can easily see how a built in snare removal would make the class way to difficult to fight against.
Consider this. A magsorc has about the same potential to reset a fight as a stamblade. However due to the fact that stamina abilities are 20% less in cost most stamina builds will outlast the sorc
Ok yes stam abilities cost less, BUT, magicka almost always has a mag pool that is higher than a stam pool by anywhere from 4K to 10k. I’d say the average stam build has 34k stam and on a mag build it’s easy to hit 39k. On the extreme you have stam builds working with a little over 30k stam and mag builds that go as high as 44k maybe more? You’re picking very select facts and ignoring some important points. So now you’re calling for stamina nerfs based on “facts” that fit your agenda. And this is why classes and skills end up becoming trash. I have no more of an issue sustaining on my magblade or magplar than I do any of my stam classes. In fact stamplar is downright painful in the sustain department and stamina warden is the exception in that it’s too easy to sustain.
You realize that extra 10k is like 2 skills right?
You can’t just look at it that way lol. You would have to look at the difference between a stam and mag pool on given builds and then look at the difference in cost and then after taking into account regen, look at what the higher skill cost really does for mag. And you also take into account that stam uses their attack resource for mitigation. So I don’t think you can argue that stamina gets better stat pools and higher damage Imo and I’ve played both mag and stam quite a lot, when it comes to damage vs regen, magicka and stamina classes are more or less on equal footing. The whole notion of this thread, “is stamina over performing” is just ridiculous. You can’t even answer yes or no. No one in their right mind would say that a magblade is under performing next to a stamina DK. But a stamina warden is definitely performing better than a magicka warden. Does a magicka sorcer under perform compared to a stamina sorcer or a stamina templar? I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to make that case. And in what case are we talking about 1v1? Zergs? Solo? Small scale? I think we can alll agree that stam DKs and magicka wardens are the worst in all cases. Except magicka wardens are very strong in group play. A magblade is incredibly strong 1v1 and has the toools to win against any class. You see where this is going? It’s impossible to simply say that stamina is over performing, because you could never, ever prove it in any given situation. And certainly you can’t just nerf stamina in general, what does that even mean? If stam sorcs or DKs take a general nerf they’re gonna be useless. The problem with threads like this is that the OP isn’t presenting any real argument, facts, a solution, or even a legitimate issue. And these are the kinds of threads that ruin classes. Chances are OP just can’t get to the level of play he or she wants to be at and is thus railing against the play style he or she gets killed by most often. We’ve all been there.3 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No
A StamSOMETHING charged up a heavy attack and I ran completely around him and stood behind him for a sec and laughed, the other day. I assumed it was a StamDK ( which is in a truly bad place right now). Just makes little sense to say Stam is overperforming. It makes NO sense AT ALL to use heavy attack as FURTHER proof they are overperforming.Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »I can't sustain stamina very well and I wear 2 pc Bloodspawn and 1 Stam Regen Glyph + 3 well-fitted. This is also in CP.
Since it's actually possible to sustain stamina builds with only Dubious Camoran throne and literally no other stamina sustain sources (apart from the armor in heavy or medium) in CP PvP, you may want to have a look at your CP distribution.
If you have a stamina ability slotted, make use of the Unchained passive - it does make a pretty drastic difference.
Since you mention Siphoning attacks, you may consider using Leeching Strikes instead of the magicka counterpart.
It's pretty hard to give further advice without knowing your exact playstyle, beside the usual "use Line of sight, favor dodge roll / block for when you have absolutely no other choice and use shields when available and weave heavies as much as you can".
Using Heavies as a magicka build makes you extremely vulnerable. Stam heavy attacks are much part which is just another addition to why stamina is overpreforming
It's much much more difficult to land a heavy in melee range than it is with a stave or bow. I fraction of an inch to the right and it's a miss. Meanwhile, lightning heavies just seem hold the button down and everyone dies. It's absurd to argue that stamina heavies are less forgiving on staves. Staves are heavy attack easy mode.
I think a better stance to take is “Nerf EVERYTHING until I can kill something using a trash build and or I develop some measure of skill playing ESO”.
Trust me, like Molag Bol always says “Your efforts will be rewarded ...SOMEDAY...” hehehehe.
Edited by JumpmanLane on May 12, 2018 9:16PM0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No
I agree. I’d only add “sets that offer mitigation/healing AND sustain”.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Magic dominates large scale, stamina dominates small scale. This topic comes up all the time filled with bias because people choose to favor one or the other. Then theres some people who never played both and not to mention those with little experience with the classes as a whole.
But what about the Magicka that wish to do small scale? Literally the only thing that magicka favors when it comes to large scale is Destro ult, proxy det, and types of healing. TBH Stam Warden can do better in large scale than most magicka making magicka just healers
Magicka is still very viable for small scale, the only thing they lack is mobility but that’s more of a problem for solo than it is for small scale. In fact I’d argue you’d have a much better chance wiping a zerg on magic builds due to the fact you have more zerg busting skills/sets at your disposal. Theres a reason why for the longest ball groups have mostly consisted of magicka builds. When is the last time you seen one stam player blow up 20 people without emp just like that?
Sure while magic can’t sprint and roll everywhere they can wipe zergs and have more sets that offer mitigation/healing to help stand your ground. So it’s not that big of a deal in a small group, especially considering the fact there’s at least 1-2 nbs that can cloak away to save the day.
Ive done both successfully but I can easily say I’ve seen the most ridiculous wipes come from mag builds.
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IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magicka in general will have harder time to sustain compared to stam because most magicka skills begin at 2.3k and easily into 3-4k and then 5k cost. So, sustain will be terrible regardless of what sets. And magicka sets rarely offer useful mitigation. Stamina is not underpowered. It is not really overpowered outside of stamblade and maybe stamden (which is hugely debatable). The issue is with certain class being loaded with lots of useful utilities that just synergizes very well with stamina's damage and easier sustain approach.Edited by IZZEFlameLash on May 13, 2018 4:44AMImperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭NoSavos_Saren wrote: »StamDen. Nightblades, and bleed builds are extremely strong.
There is no magicka counter-build to bleed. Why is there no effect that ignores all spell resistances?
You think bleed builds are bad now? Wait until Sload comes out. Irresistible Oblivion damage AND unmitigated bleed damage. And now try to heal through that with Major Defile on...
stam builds got even bigger issues with major defile as mag builds. So yes sloads will be very annoying - for everybody!
To the stamina warden QQ: On EU - PC i dont see alot of stamdens at all - maybe 5-10%. These stamdens are tanky got an easy to avoid burst that mainly noobs die to. Only rly annoying thing about them is the reflect when playing a mNB/mSorc. And no i dont play a stam warden. I didnt even made one.Edited by Murador178 on May 13, 2018 10:06AM0 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭NoThe only people voting yes are either
A) People who have not played stamina
B ) People who have an inherent bias against stamina
C) People who think one class defines every stamina class period but are so ignorant that they then compare that one class to every magicka class
In all actuality, some facts for people who actually listen to logic, stamina fills its role, and magicka fills its role. Mobility is not something that is stam vs magicka unique, rather it is more so class based (sorcs have the highest) and build based (bow, speed pots, etc). Damage is class based. Tankiness is class based. Sustain is class based. The only difference between magicka and stamina is that stamina is pidgeonholed into using weapon skill lines much more then magicka is, with only having a few stamina morphs at their disposal. The only things overperforming are certain sets.
well spoken.... this is filled with people complaining about certain classes and not the overall outlook
The counter to damage shields is damage
The counter to dodge is AoE which may or may not be easily available nor will it do much damage to a roll spammer
The counter to block is to CC someone out of it or hit them with low damaging and low costing attacks to drain them of stamina
Also stam builds can reliably CC break (This is my main issue I have. The rest can sorta be worked with but at a certain point this gets stupid)
Any decent magicka build on magicka nb can realiable cc break. So i noticed in duels vs NA players that they run ZERO stam sustain. That may work on a pet sorc in duels but U NEEED stam sustain openworld. There are some rly good sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker + tripots which makes stam sustain on mag classes pretty easy. U may watch of @MalcolM24 sorcerer videos where his sorc rolls almost as much as a stamblade
taking out 6-7 solo. Edited by Murador178 on May 13, 2018 10:06AM0 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoRagnaroek93 wrote: »Stamina can't handle Defile, it's hard to rate it as OP when they can get killed that easily by magbuilds who utilize Defile. This whole stamina is OP statement is only a NA thing, on EU I do not see a stamina meta outside of stamnb in open world.
This.1 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoSince it's actually possible to sustain stamina builds with only Dubious Camoran throne and literally no other stamina sustain sources (apart from the armor in heavy or medium) in CP PvP
Not on my Stamplar.The mobility that stamina has over magicka is the main paoint. Some classes abuse it more than others but over all they still have the same mobility
This isn't about nerfing stamina as much as it is about giving magicka builds the ability to actually sustain stamina
Pretty sure any Stamsorc, Stamblade or Stamwarden has more mobility than my Stamplar, same with Magsorcs, Magwarden and Magblades - so as much as stamina can dodge roll and sprint more in general it's a class balance thing.
Besides I dueled a magsorc with 1200 stam regen just the other day, he could kill me just fine and was able to break all my CC and roll dodge if he saw fit. Yes some magicka classes have an easier time sustaining stamina (Sorcs and NBs) - but it's very much depending on the build aswell.
Stamblades have to invest in magicka regen to utilize shades and cloak more than a couple of times, Stamdks need to invest in magicka regen to utilize their class buffs and utility more than a couple of casts - same with Stamwardens, Stamsorc needs magicka regen in order to make use of Bolt Escape and Dark Deal. Only Stamplars have no reason to invest in magicka (which is more a design flaw with the class than a common problem with stamina).
So if stamina classes need to invest in magicka regen to utilize their class buffs and utility, why shouldn't magicka classes need to invest in stamina regen in order to CC break and dodge roll?
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Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NoBrokenGameMechanics wrote: »No offense, but if you're all just saying the StamWarden is super OP, because that is what you read or you're just repeating what you keep reading, cause everyone keeps repeating it ... it just muddies the waters. The StamWarden is not OP. It isn't even all that competitive to be honest. If you play a lot of PVP or (omg) actually played a StamWarden you know that it can be a tanky build, but there are lots of ways to put together a tanky build. And people just ignore the tanky builds anyway in PVP.
You don't see them (StamWardens) on any of the PVP Leaderboards. You don't see people flocking to make StamWardens in PVP. If you get the "Kill Enemy Wardens" Bounty you'll do anything to drop it and beg someone, anyone, to the share anything else. Not because you just can't kill the enemy Wardens or they just kill you (hardly), it is because you can't even find anyone playing Wardens to kill.
Yet with no one really playing them in PVP, and then those that do play them PVP not doing well at all on any of the Leaderboards (pfft forget Trial boards, even worse for Wardens), still somehow "everyone" knows that StamWardens are the most OP class/builds in PVP. <sigh> After SummerSet drops and anyone can run a Warden I will be a lot of disappointed folk after investing in a Mag/Stam-Warden and finding out it's actually pretty meh and not getting this OP indestructible killing machine they keep reading about. Cause everyone keeps repeating it, cause everyone is repeating it.
The StamWarden has been heavily nerfed now. A large amount of Warden skills have been or continue to be "broken". Right now literally no StamWarden slots Birds , fewer slot Sub Assault (and with the big nerf coming, those will dwindle). It's the only class where slotting even 2-3 class skills is considered odd, with most slotting 0 or just 1.
I used to play a StamWarden as a Warden, ie. I slotted a lot of the Warden (7-8) class skills. It was fun and reasonably effective.
After all the heavy nerfs and the comparative upgrades in all the other classes that is happening, I'm currently down to slotting one class skill, the Sub Assault. When Summerset comes out there is every indication that most will drop that skill as it will no longer be very effective when compared to any number of non-class skills. It just doesn't seem right to have a class where one is laughed at for even slotting 1 or 2 of the class skills, but that is where the StamWarden will be.
And if you are slotting 0 class (Warden) skills, then you're just better making a StamXXX of some other class. Since you won't be slotting any Warden skills, a lot of the Warden passives don't make sense, so ... why do it? You can DW, 2H, S&B just as well if not better AND you'll get some options on some decent class skills and applicable passives somewhere else. Bottom line all will you lose/gain with a StamWarden is a some nice healing / sustain from the passives, but nothing else. All the other classes are getting buffed for self healing as well. So that advantage is lessened, if not gone. Regardless a few CP points makes up for the the healing passive's issue. Going with some other classes fixes getting decent skills to slot and getting some better, usable, passives makes a lot more sense. It is sort of dead class right now, and looks to remain so for the near future at least.
Stop talking about stamden like its stamDk or stamplar. Its cringy.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 13, 2018 11:26AM0 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭NoRagnarock41 wrote: »BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »No offense, but if you're all just saying the StamWarden is super OP, because that is what you read or you're just repeating what you keep reading, cause everyone keeps repeating it ... it just muddies the waters. The StamWarden is not OP. It isn't even all that competitive to be honest. If you play a lot of PVP or (omg) actually played a StamWarden you know that it can be a tanky build, but there are lots of ways to put together a tanky build. And people just ignore the tanky builds anyway in PVP.
You don't see them (StamWardens) on any of the PVP Leaderboards. You don't see people flocking to make StamWardens in PVP. If you get the "Kill Enemy Wardens" Bounty you'll do anything to drop it and beg someone, anyone, to the share anything else. Not because you just can't kill the enemy Wardens or they just kill you (hardly), it is because you can't even find anyone playing Wardens to kill.
Yet with no one really playing them in PVP, and then those that do play them PVP not doing well at all on any of the Leaderboards (pfft forget Trial boards, even worse for Wardens), still somehow "everyone" knows that StamWardens are the most OP class/builds in PVP. <sigh> After SummerSet drops and anyone can run a Warden I will be a lot of disappointed folk after investing in a Mag/Stam-Warden and finding out it's actually pretty meh and not getting this OP indestructible killing machine they keep reading about. Cause everyone keeps repeating it, cause everyone is repeating it.
The StamWarden has been heavily nerfed now. A large amount of Warden skills have been or continue to be "broken". Right now literally no StamWarden slots Birds , fewer slot Sub Assault (and with the big nerf coming, those will dwindle). It's the only class where slotting even 2-3 class skills is considered odd, with most slotting 0 or just 1.
I used to play a StamWarden as a Warden, ie. I slotted a lot of the Warden (7-8) class skills. It was fun and reasonably effective.
After all the heavy nerfs and the comparative upgrades in all the other classes that is happening, I'm currently down to slotting one class skill, the Sub Assault. When Summerset comes out there is every indication that most will drop that skill as it will no longer be very effective when compared to any number of non-class skills. It just doesn't seem right to have a class where one is laughed at for even slotting 1 or 2 of the class skills, but that is where the StamWarden will be.
And if you are slotting 0 class (Warden) skills, then you're just better making a StamXXX of some other class. Since you won't be slotting any Warden skills, a lot of the Warden passives don't make sense, so ... why do it? You can DW, 2H, S&B just as well if not better AND you'll get some options on some decent class skills and applicable passives somewhere else. Bottom line all will you lose/gain with a StamWarden is a some nice healing / sustain from the passives, but nothing else. All the other classes are getting buffed for self healing as well. So that advantage is lessened, if not gone. Regardless a few CP points makes up for the the healing passive's issue. Going with some other classes fixes getting decent skills to slot and getting some better, usable, passives makes a lot more sense. It is sort of dead class right now, and looks to remain so for the near future at least.
Stop talking about stamden like its stamDk or stamplar. Its cringy.
I dont have a stamden and i dont think they are very strong tbh. They seem to be good at being tanky and killing pugs still not getting when that subassault will hit. Shimmering shield is annoying as ranged char but besides that stamden doesnt seem to be that strong. Atleast i see least wardens (stam and magicka) in cyro and they dont impress me that much.
I dont see any stamina class rly overperforming: Imo stam dk and stamplar are the WORST classes in the game right now. The best classes for solo PvP seem to be: stam nb, mag sorc(esp if u get some stamreg), mag nb, maybe stamden(cant comment on that one - I dont play one).
In group PvP stamina is for sure not overperforming.
And sustaining only with dubios cameron throne is completely unviable in openworld PvP - it may work in a duel so. But i can also duel with near zero stamregen on my mSorc with a high magicka build and run ele drain + the citrus food, running zero mag regen besides that aswell.
Edited by Murador178 on May 13, 2018 2:30PM1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoMurador178 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »No offense, but if you're all just saying the StamWarden is super OP, because that is what you read or you're just repeating what you keep reading, cause everyone keeps repeating it ... it just muddies the waters. The StamWarden is not OP. It isn't even all that competitive to be honest. If you play a lot of PVP or (omg) actually played a StamWarden you know that it can be a tanky build, but there are lots of ways to put together a tanky build. And people just ignore the tanky builds anyway in PVP.
You don't see them (StamWardens) on any of the PVP Leaderboards. You don't see people flocking to make StamWardens in PVP. If you get the "Kill Enemy Wardens" Bounty you'll do anything to drop it and beg someone, anyone, to the share anything else. Not because you just can't kill the enemy Wardens or they just kill you (hardly), it is because you can't even find anyone playing Wardens to kill.
Yet with no one really playing them in PVP, and then those that do play them PVP not doing well at all on any of the Leaderboards (pfft forget Trial boards, even worse for Wardens), still somehow "everyone" knows that StamWardens are the most OP class/builds in PVP. <sigh> After SummerSet drops and anyone can run a Warden I will be a lot of disappointed folk after investing in a Mag/Stam-Warden and finding out it's actually pretty meh and not getting this OP indestructible killing machine they keep reading about. Cause everyone keeps repeating it, cause everyone is repeating it.
The StamWarden has been heavily nerfed now. A large amount of Warden skills have been or continue to be "broken". Right now literally no StamWarden slots Birds , fewer slot Sub Assault (and with the big nerf coming, those will dwindle). It's the only class where slotting even 2-3 class skills is considered odd, with most slotting 0 or just 1.
I used to play a StamWarden as a Warden, ie. I slotted a lot of the Warden (7-8) class skills. It was fun and reasonably effective.
After all the heavy nerfs and the comparative upgrades in all the other classes that is happening, I'm currently down to slotting one class skill, the Sub Assault. When Summerset comes out there is every indication that most will drop that skill as it will no longer be very effective when compared to any number of non-class skills. It just doesn't seem right to have a class where one is laughed at for even slotting 1 or 2 of the class skills, but that is where the StamWarden will be.
And if you are slotting 0 class (Warden) skills, then you're just better making a StamXXX of some other class. Since you won't be slotting any Warden skills, a lot of the Warden passives don't make sense, so ... why do it? You can DW, 2H, S&B just as well if not better AND you'll get some options on some decent class skills and applicable passives somewhere else. Bottom line all will you lose/gain with a StamWarden is a some nice healing / sustain from the passives, but nothing else. All the other classes are getting buffed for self healing as well. So that advantage is lessened, if not gone. Regardless a few CP points makes up for the the healing passive's issue. Going with some other classes fixes getting decent skills to slot and getting some better, usable, passives makes a lot more sense. It is sort of dead class right now, and looks to remain so for the near future at least.
Stop talking about stamden like its stamDk or stamplar. Its cringy.
I dont have a stamden and i dont think they are very strong tbh. They seem to be good at being tanky and killing pugs still not getting when that subassault will hit. Shimmering shield is annoying as ranged char but besides that stamden doesnt seem to be that strong. Atleast i see least wardens (stam and magicka) in cyro and they dont impress me that much.
I dont see any stamina class rly overperforming: Imo stam dk and stamplar are the WORST classes in the game right now. The best classes for solo PvP seem to be: stam nb, mag sorc(esp if u get some stamreg), mag nb, maybe stamden(cant comment on that one - I dont play one).
In group PvP stamina is for sure not overperforming.
And sustaining only with dubios cameron throne is completely unviable in openworld PvP - it may work in a duel so. But i can also duel with near zero stamregen on my mSorc with a high magicka build and run ele drain + the citrus food, running zero mag regen besides that aswell.
Stamwarden is the single most overperfoming spec in the game you should really give it a go.
It feels like a stamdk on crazy steroids you just have everything and more.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoMurador178 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »No offense, but if you're all just saying the StamWarden is super OP, because that is what you read or you're just repeating what you keep reading, cause everyone keeps repeating it ... it just muddies the waters. The StamWarden is not OP. It isn't even all that competitive to be honest. If you play a lot of PVP or (omg) actually played a StamWarden you know that it can be a tanky build, but there are lots of ways to put together a tanky build. And people just ignore the tanky builds anyway in PVP.
You don't see them (StamWardens) on any of the PVP Leaderboards. You don't see people flocking to make StamWardens in PVP. If you get the "Kill Enemy Wardens" Bounty you'll do anything to drop it and beg someone, anyone, to the share anything else. Not because you just can't kill the enemy Wardens or they just kill you (hardly), it is because you can't even find anyone playing Wardens to kill.
Yet with no one really playing them in PVP, and then those that do play them PVP not doing well at all on any of the Leaderboards (pfft forget Trial boards, even worse for Wardens), still somehow "everyone" knows that StamWardens are the most OP class/builds in PVP. <sigh> After SummerSet drops and anyone can run a Warden I will be a lot of disappointed folk after investing in a Mag/Stam-Warden and finding out it's actually pretty meh and not getting this OP indestructible killing machine they keep reading about. Cause everyone keeps repeating it, cause everyone is repeating it.
The StamWarden has been heavily nerfed now. A large amount of Warden skills have been or continue to be "broken". Right now literally no StamWarden slots Birds , fewer slot Sub Assault (and with the big nerf coming, those will dwindle). It's the only class where slotting even 2-3 class skills is considered odd, with most slotting 0 or just 1.
I used to play a StamWarden as a Warden, ie. I slotted a lot of the Warden (7-8) class skills. It was fun and reasonably effective.
After all the heavy nerfs and the comparative upgrades in all the other classes that is happening, I'm currently down to slotting one class skill, the Sub Assault. When Summerset comes out there is every indication that most will drop that skill as it will no longer be very effective when compared to any number of non-class skills. It just doesn't seem right to have a class where one is laughed at for even slotting 1 or 2 of the class skills, but that is where the StamWarden will be.
And if you are slotting 0 class (Warden) skills, then you're just better making a StamXXX of some other class. Since you won't be slotting any Warden skills, a lot of the Warden passives don't make sense, so ... why do it? You can DW, 2H, S&B just as well if not better AND you'll get some options on some decent class skills and applicable passives somewhere else. Bottom line all will you lose/gain with a StamWarden is a some nice healing / sustain from the passives, but nothing else. All the other classes are getting buffed for self healing as well. So that advantage is lessened, if not gone. Regardless a few CP points makes up for the the healing passive's issue. Going with some other classes fixes getting decent skills to slot and getting some better, usable, passives makes a lot more sense. It is sort of dead class right now, and looks to remain so for the near future at least.
Stop talking about stamden like its stamDk or stamplar. Its cringy.
I dont have a stamden and i dont think they are very strong tbh. They seem to be good at being tanky and killing pugs still not getting when that subassault will hit. Shimmering shield is annoying as ranged char but besides that stamden doesnt seem to be that strong. Atleast i see least wardens (stam and magicka) in cyro and they dont impress me that much.
I dont see any stamina class rly overperforming: Imo stam dk and stamplar are the WORST classes in the game right now. The best classes for solo PvP seem to be: stam nb, mag sorc(esp if u get some stamreg), mag nb, maybe stamden(cant comment on that one - I dont play one).
In group PvP stamina is for sure not overperforming.
And sustaining only with dubios cameron throne is completely unviable in openworld PvP - it may work in a duel so. But i can also duel with near zero stamregen on my mSorc with a high magicka build and run ele drain + the citrus food, running zero mag regen besides that aswell.
Stamwarden is the single most overperfoming spec in the game you should really give it a go.
It feels like a stamdk on crazy steroids you just have everything and more.
Can you name EU players that overperform on stamden?
I literally haven´t found a stamden where i thought to myself: Woah this is broken...<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoMurador178 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »No offense, but if you're all just saying the StamWarden is super OP, because that is what you read or you're just repeating what you keep reading, cause everyone keeps repeating it ... it just muddies the waters. The StamWarden is not OP. It isn't even all that competitive to be honest. If you play a lot of PVP or (omg) actually played a StamWarden you know that it can be a tanky build, but there are lots of ways to put together a tanky build. And people just ignore the tanky builds anyway in PVP.
You don't see them (StamWardens) on any of the PVP Leaderboards. You don't see people flocking to make StamWardens in PVP. If you get the "Kill Enemy Wardens" Bounty you'll do anything to drop it and beg someone, anyone, to the share anything else. Not because you just can't kill the enemy Wardens or they just kill you (hardly), it is because you can't even find anyone playing Wardens to kill.
Yet with no one really playing them in PVP, and then those that do play them PVP not doing well at all on any of the Leaderboards (pfft forget Trial boards, even worse for Wardens), still somehow "everyone" knows that StamWardens are the most OP class/builds in PVP. <sigh> After SummerSet drops and anyone can run a Warden I will be a lot of disappointed folk after investing in a Mag/Stam-Warden and finding out it's actually pretty meh and not getting this OP indestructible killing machine they keep reading about. Cause everyone keeps repeating it, cause everyone is repeating it.
The StamWarden has been heavily nerfed now. A large amount of Warden skills have been or continue to be "broken". Right now literally no StamWarden slots Birds , fewer slot Sub Assault (and with the big nerf coming, those will dwindle). It's the only class where slotting even 2-3 class skills is considered odd, with most slotting 0 or just 1.
I used to play a StamWarden as a Warden, ie. I slotted a lot of the Warden (7-8) class skills. It was fun and reasonably effective.
After all the heavy nerfs and the comparative upgrades in all the other classes that is happening, I'm currently down to slotting one class skill, the Sub Assault. When Summerset comes out there is every indication that most will drop that skill as it will no longer be very effective when compared to any number of non-class skills. It just doesn't seem right to have a class where one is laughed at for even slotting 1 or 2 of the class skills, but that is where the StamWarden will be.
And if you are slotting 0 class (Warden) skills, then you're just better making a StamXXX of some other class. Since you won't be slotting any Warden skills, a lot of the Warden passives don't make sense, so ... why do it? You can DW, 2H, S&B just as well if not better AND you'll get some options on some decent class skills and applicable passives somewhere else. Bottom line all will you lose/gain with a StamWarden is a some nice healing / sustain from the passives, but nothing else. All the other classes are getting buffed for self healing as well. So that advantage is lessened, if not gone. Regardless a few CP points makes up for the the healing passive's issue. Going with some other classes fixes getting decent skills to slot and getting some better, usable, passives makes a lot more sense. It is sort of dead class right now, and looks to remain so for the near future at least.
Stop talking about stamden like its stamDk or stamplar. Its cringy.
I dont have a stamden and i dont think they are very strong tbh. They seem to be good at being tanky and killing pugs still not getting when that subassault will hit. Shimmering shield is annoying as ranged char but besides that stamden doesnt seem to be that strong. Atleast i see least wardens (stam and magicka) in cyro and they dont impress me that much.
I dont see any stamina class rly overperforming: Imo stam dk and stamplar are the WORST classes in the game right now. The best classes for solo PvP seem to be: stam nb, mag sorc(esp if u get some stamreg), mag nb, maybe stamden(cant comment on that one - I dont play one).
In group PvP stamina is for sure not overperforming.
And sustaining only with dubios cameron throne is completely unviable in openworld PvP - it may work in a duel so. But i can also duel with near zero stamregen on my mSorc with a high magicka build and run ele drain + the citrus food, running zero mag regen besides that aswell.
Stamwarden is the single most overperfoming spec in the game you should really give it a go.
It feels like a stamdk on crazy steroids you just have everything and more.
Can you name EU players that overperform on stamden?
I literally haven´t found a stamden where i thought to myself: Woah this is broken...
Bobby, Rothlog, my babe Lizard
, Jojo (on break atm), Badt, i think i could list every single small scaler on EU and point out how much better their performance gets when they swap from another class to stamwarden.
When i leveled my stamwarden and brought it into pvp without undaunted and not fully leveled skills and non optimised gear i still got carried so hard by the class that i often just went for ridiculous 1vX tries just to find out how many players i could kill now without much struggle or anything it was boring going for 1v1s in OW because there were maybe 2-3 OW builds that could kill me if i tried to survive
Everyone I've been talking to said that stamwarden is ridiculously overperfoming, easy to use and very forgiving.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Noit was boring going for 1v1s in OW because there were maybe 2-3 OW builds that could kill me if i tried to survive
That´s precisely why i don´t feel they´re strong though. I can´t break em - granted. But neither on magblade or sorc have i met one that i´d feel threatened by aswell.
They´re tanky potatomashers.
On stamblade i´d figure it´s the same bc 1v1 nothing will really catch a more competent stamblade than i am <Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Noit was boring going for 1v1s in OW because there were maybe 2-3 OW builds that could kill me if i tried to survive
That´s precisely why i don´t feel they´re strong though. I can´t break em - granted. But neither on magblade or sorc have i met one that i´d feel threatened by aswell.
They´re tanky potatomashers.
On stamblade i´d figure it´s the same bc 1v1 nothing will really catch a more competent stamblade than i am
And that is the reason i think the are overperfoming it's not a good thing that people can kill while being "unkillable" in a game that focuses on killing things.
They have the best offence, defence and utility of all stamina classes by far.
Also on OW stamwarden it's not limited to 1 player standing no chance of killing me, ranged magicka classes can't even touch you while they make you stronger with each attack, i had multiple fights where 3 players couldn't even touch me while i died vs the same 3 players on my other stamchars.
There is no reason to use another stamclass if you really want to go full tryhard
I also wouldn't want that all stamspecs are buffed to the performance of stamwarden because then PvP will be really really boring.
I don't want one shots and i don't want endless fights however fights that take more than 5 minutes are fine in my eyes when there is actually a good chance that one might still win because he outplays the other guy and the other guy just managed to survive this long due to own skill.
Well that might be because in OW there are not many good players that waste their time fighting an equally good player or they know each other (might also cause some fights
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