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Remove Major Defile and Decrease all Healing by 30%
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Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just give Major Defile the same treatment as Major Mending, reduce the number of sources and uptime. Win win.1 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Fixed it for you.Almost any buff/debuffMajor Defile currently has 100% uptime on majority of builds that run it, and most builds are fitting in Major Defile into their load out. Allow us to free up a skill slot and just decrease all healing by 30% if uptime is meant to be 100%.
Major Defile currently has 0% uptime on majority of builds that don't run it
Short sighted much?
So not all builds that don't run Major Defile have 0% uptime? That's my take away from your comment.
If a debuff that is so easily accessible in a normal rotation has 100% uptime why not just take it out? Or just make light attacks apply Major Defile. At least that way non-stamina builds can fit Major Defile into their rotations without sacrificing too much.
I'm just asking for balance.
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DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Fixed it for you.Almost any buff/debuffMajor Defile currently has 100% uptime on majority of builds that run it, and most builds are fitting in Major Defile into their load out. Allow us to free up a skill slot and just decrease all healing by 30% if uptime is meant to be 100%.
Major Defile currently has 0% uptime on majority of builds that don't run it
Short sighted much?
So not all builds that don't run Major Defile have 0% uptime? That's my take away from your comment.
If a debuff that is so easily accessible in a normal rotation has 100% uptime why not just take it out? Or just make light attacks apply Major Defile. At least that way non-stamina builds can fit Major Defile into their rotations without sacrificing too much.
I'm just asking for balance.
No, you are asking to free up a skill slot or a 5 piece bonus with no downside.
I get it, and I agree--it's frustrating that heals are balanced around a high defile uptime, and that it feels like a necessary part of a rotation, but even if the changes you suggest go through, you are nerfing heal builds who can/do avoid defile, and you are buffing builds that otherwise have to find room for defile.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub0 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
If it's coming from another source, not self provided, then yes.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Fixed it for you.Almost any buff/debuffMajor Defile currently has 100% uptime on majority of builds that run it, and most builds are fitting in Major Defile into their load out. Allow us to free up a skill slot and just decrease all healing by 30% if uptime is meant to be 100%.
Major Defile currently has 0% uptime on majority of builds that don't run it
Short sighted much?
So not all builds that don't run Major Defile have 0% uptime? That's my take away from your comment.
If a debuff that is so easily accessible in a normal rotation has 100% uptime why not just take it out? Or just make light attacks apply Major Defile. At least that way non-stamina builds can fit Major Defile into their rotations without sacrificing too much.
I'm just asking for balance.
But again, it's not in every build, and therefore not in every rotation.
It's not balance when you're suggesting a 30% reduction in heals across the board. You're asking for a blanket counter to something that is not always present.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
If it's coming from another source, not self provided, then yes.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Fixed it for you.Almost any buff/debuffMajor Defile currently has 100% uptime on majority of builds that run it, and most builds are fitting in Major Defile into their load out. Allow us to free up a skill slot and just decrease all healing by 30% if uptime is meant to be 100%.
Major Defile currently has 0% uptime on majority of builds that don't run it
Short sighted much?
So not all builds that don't run Major Defile have 0% uptime? That's my take away from your comment.
If a debuff that is so easily accessible in a normal rotation has 100% uptime why not just take it out? Or just make light attacks apply Major Defile. At least that way non-stamina builds can fit Major Defile into their rotations without sacrificing too much.
I'm just asking for balance.
But again, it's not in every build, and therefore not in every rotation.
It's not balance when you're suggesting a 30% reduction in heals across the board. You're asking for a blanket counter to something that is not always present.
Have you been in PvP? Pretty much everyone is running Major Defile either via a set like Durok's, Reverb or Lethal Arrow. All 3 methods have 100% uptime by doing nothing outside the regular offensive rotation. Durok's is 100% uptime, Reverb is the stun before burst and Lethal Arrow it the bow's highest damage skill. These make up a easy majority of PvP builds atm.
Major Sorcery/Brutality/Resolve/Ward have longer uptime and aren't part of every rotation. If I'm running reverb, I'm fitting that in every rotation. If I run Snipe, It's going to be every other skill. Durok's is 100% uptime. So why even bother having it as a debuff if I can have it up 100% of the time without any thought. I need to remember to recast the other Major Buffs meanwhile I'm essentially keeping Major Defile up for "free", as in 0 thought required to keep it up and 0 opportunity cost because it doesn't break my offensive rotation.
I always hate if I forget to recast Rally or Spiked Armor but I never once have thought "man I forgot to cast reverb" or "i forgot to use Lethal Arrow". The uptime is 100% on builds that run it and most builds do run Major Defile. My opponents can't even counter Major Defile so it's a pointless debuff. Just decrease healing by 30% across the board and everyone is in the same boat.0 -
Rygonix✭✭✭✭✭Doesn't Major Defile reduce health regen by 30% too? Why not reduce that by 30% as well, for "balance".
/sEdited by Rygonix on May 4, 2018 4:41AMCeres Des Mortem-Dark Elf Templar, EP
PC-NA0 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Doesn't Major Defile reduce health regen by 30% too? Why not reduce that by 30% as well, for "balance".
/s
More like 45% once that person gets done putting CP in.
The #1 reason Defile needs to be nerfed is because it hurts the classes that rely on healing for their only PvP advantage the most, namely Stamina Dragonknight. Defile also hurts races that give a bonus to Health Recovery the most, namely Nord, Orc, and Khajiit which they are already struggling against Redguard and Argonian's sustain advantage.
If Defile affected the size of Sorc's shields we'd get a nerf by tomorrow.
Edited by Twohothardware on May 4, 2018 6:02AM0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My take on this:
Both healing and defiles are overtuned. It´s not difficult to achieve ridiculous amount of healing, there´re many sources that boost that part. From this point of view defiles are needed in order to counter them. But on the other hand, those builds that are not stacked into healing too much, will feel the defile debuff even more. The befoul CP allocation is also scaling way too good. Lowering both the amount of healing we can do, and reducing the effectiveness of defiles needs to be done at the same time. They´re both a part of the problem, not just defiles.
People often complain about un-balance when it comes to proc-sets and how they should be removed. But in my opinion the most unbalanced set in the game is Durok´s Bane. Say what you want about Zaan and other proc-sets, but there´re counters to those sets (even though everyone don´t have access to those counters as easily). Durok´s Bane has one and one counter only: Don´t hit the user. Durok´s Bane is one of those sets that needs a serious rework.
Edit: One idea that came to mind was: Leave the proc-condition on Durok´s, but let the major defile part also affect the user, that´s a real "Bane" if you ask me
And a reduction of healing by a flat 30% would hit PvE healers immensely. In the new trial Cloudrest (just as an example) there´s a debuff that reduces your healing received by 90% (which I hope ZOS lowers to major defile because 90% is way overtuned). Imagine a flat 30% healing reduction on top of that......Edited by Qbiken on May 4, 2018 6:57AM1 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Doesn't Major Defile reduce health regen by 30% too? Why not reduce that by 30% as well, for "balance".
/s
Sure, why not.DeadlyRecluse wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Fixed it for you.Almost any buff/debuffMajor Defile currently has 100% uptime on majority of builds that run it, and most builds are fitting in Major Defile into their load out. Allow us to free up a skill slot and just decrease all healing by 30% if uptime is meant to be 100%.
Major Defile currently has 0% uptime on majority of builds that don't run it
Short sighted much?
So not all builds that don't run Major Defile have 0% uptime? That's my take away from your comment.
If a debuff that is so easily accessible in a normal rotation has 100% uptime why not just take it out? Or just make light attacks apply Major Defile. At least that way non-stamina builds can fit Major Defile into their rotations without sacrificing too much.
I'm just asking for balance.
No, you are asking to free up a skill slot or a 5 piece bonus with no downside.
I get it, and I agree--it's frustrating that heals are balanced around a high defile uptime, and that it feels like a necessary part of a rotation, but even if the changes you suggest go through, you are nerfing heal builds who can/do avoid defile, and you are buffing builds that otherwise have to find room for defile.
Those builds only work because of Defile though. Take them out and majority of their pressure is gone too. Not really that big of a buff. Just a redistribution of power. I.E. instead of running reverb I can slot a gap closer or maybe reverb gets changed to add something else.0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Qbiken
Questionable trial design isn’t an argument against reducing healing in PvE. Or would you say that healing in PvE is challenging?Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Qbiken
Questionable trial design isn’t an argument against reducing healing in PvE. Or would you say that healing in PvE is challenging?
It wasn´t meant as an argument but more as a "What if"- scenario and was written as a reminder to OP that other content than PvP can be affected by such major changes that was suggested ^^ (but to answer your first question: No it isn´t)
I would say healing can be challenging. Not when it comes to 4-man content but when it comes to veteran trials it certainly can. Especially when you´ve to start doing stuff outside of just healing (keeping buffs/debuffs up) it can become quite challenging. Good healers (and tanks) doesn´t grow on trees these days
Edited by Qbiken on May 4, 2018 8:27AM1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problem with this is defile is really strong, but I these super heals are generally on something that can overcome it. Like a Templar for example. They just use extended ritual. Or, when you are talking about the Zerg heal bots; there’s enough people running purge. What defile and befoul really hurt are the small man guys who cannot really focus on healing and have to be more well rounded. Of course with damage comes stronger heals but a lot of that is being nerfed already in crit damage no longer going to affect healing. There’s some exceptions here on some things that have ridiculous self heals constantly going but I think a more precise method would be better.
Ok so your idea of a straight 30% healing nerf and removing defile makes it to where the true healing issue eats it, but it really kills those of us not running with a pocket healer or ball group or Zerg. Once again, small man takes a hit, save for one group. Shield stackers. If you look at the king in this area, sorcs; defile effects them the least but also, don’t see a lot of them running defile themselves either yet they do fine. So do ranged magblades but some do go in for incap, many don’t and they’re fine. You are now shifting it to where they essentially get gifted defile when they certainly don’t need it.
You’re essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water.1 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Doesn't Major Defile reduce health regen by 30% too? Why not reduce that by 30% as well, for "balance".
/s
Sure, why not.DeadlyRecluse wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Fixed it for you.Almost any buff/debuffMajor Defile currently has 100% uptime on majority of builds that run it, and most builds are fitting in Major Defile into their load out. Allow us to free up a skill slot and just decrease all healing by 30% if uptime is meant to be 100%.
Major Defile currently has 0% uptime on majority of builds that don't run it
Short sighted much?
So not all builds that don't run Major Defile have 0% uptime? That's my take away from your comment.
If a debuff that is so easily accessible in a normal rotation has 100% uptime why not just take it out? Or just make light attacks apply Major Defile. At least that way non-stamina builds can fit Major Defile into their rotations without sacrificing too much.
I'm just asking for balance.
No, you are asking to free up a skill slot or a 5 piece bonus with no downside.
I get it, and I agree--it's frustrating that heals are balanced around a high defile uptime, and that it feels like a necessary part of a rotation, but even if the changes you suggest go through, you are nerfing heal builds who can/do avoid defile, and you are buffing builds that otherwise have to find room for defile.
Those builds only work because of Defile though. Take them out and majority of their pressure is gone too. Not really that big of a buff. Just a redistribution of power. I.E. instead of running reverb I can slot a gap closer or maybe reverb gets changed to add something else.
You've just given them (and everyone) the same pressure by blanket nerfing heals. And you've given yourself a buff by freeing up a skill slot (and other defile builds a buff by freeing up a gear bonus).You are now shifting it to where they essentially get gifted defile when they certainly don’t need it.
You’re essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Exactly this.
Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub1 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭@Qbiken
Questionable trial design isn’t an argument against reducing healing in PvE. Or would you say that healing in PvE is challenging?
It wasn´t meant as an argument but more as a "What if"- scenario and was written as a reminder to OP that other content than PvP can be affected by such major changes that was suggested ^^ (but to answer your first question: No it isn´t)
I would say healing can be challenging. Not when it comes to 4-man content but when it comes to veteran trials it certainly can. Especially when you´ve to start doing stuff outside of just healing (keeping buffs/debuffs up) it can become quite challenging. Good healers (and tanks) doesn´t grow on trees these days
Healers don't even spec for healing in PvE. They're more like buff managers that drop Healing Springs every now and then.
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Irylia✭✭✭✭✭
✭Remove major defile from skills like reverb/flare/snipe/incap
And replace it with minor defile.
Major defile on nova and shackle so stationary ults and two under used classes may see more play in groups.
Duroks should proc every 5 seconds.
And be up for 4
Or
remove befoul completely and still remove defile from Incap
There just needs to be a variation of befoul/defile removed and if healing is still strong remove it from cp1 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Remove major defile from skills like reverb/flare/snipe/incap
And replace it with minor defile.
Major defile on nova and shackle so stationary ults and two under used classes may see more play in groups.
Duroks should proc every 5 seconds.
And be up for 4
Or
remove befoul completely and still remove defile from Incap
There just needs to be a variation of befoul/defile removed and if healing is still strong remove it from cp
Now these are some solid suggestions...
Minor defile is a little too rare and major defile too common. Snipe, Flare, and Reverb should probably be minor. Incap being major seems fine, as it's an ult, but that's just an overloaded skill anyway.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Remove major defile from skills like reverb/flare/snipe/incap
And replace it with minor defile.
Major defile on nova and shackle so stationary ults and two under used classes may see more play in groups.
Duroks should proc every 5 seconds.
And be up for 4
Or
remove befoul completely and still remove defile from Incap
There just needs to be a variation of befoul/defile removed and if healing is still strong remove it from cp
This sounds a lot more reasonable.0 -
_Ahala_✭✭✭✭✭
✭DeadlyRecluse wrote: »Remove major defile from skills like reverb/flare/snipe/incap
And replace it with minor defile.
Major defile on nova and shackle so stationary ults and two under used classes may see more play in groups.
Duroks should proc every 5 seconds.
And be up for 4
Or
remove befoul completely and still remove defile from Incap
There just needs to be a variation of befoul/defile removed and if healing is still strong remove it from cp
Now these are some solid suggestions...
Minor defile is a little too rare and major defile too common. Snipe, Flare, and Reverb should probably be minor. Incap being major seems fine, as it's an ult, but that's just an overloaded skill anyway.
Could magden keep major defile on corrupting pollen pls, or do we need to nerf that endangered species as well by some arbitrary rule set...
Lol... the fact no one even thinks of magden when discussing defile shows how rare and non threatening that sub class is in the current metaEdited by _Ahala_ on May 5, 2018 8:11AM0 -
hiymeh✭Decrease food/drink and potion up time by 30%!
Decrease level cap by 30%Edited by hiymeh on May 5, 2018 9:11AM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
If it's coming from another source, not self provided, then yes.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Fixed it for you.Almost any buff/debuffMajor Defile currently has 100% uptime on majority of builds that run it, and most builds are fitting in Major Defile into their load out. Allow us to free up a skill slot and just decrease all healing by 30% if uptime is meant to be 100%.
Major Defile currently has 0% uptime on majority of builds that don't run it
Short sighted much?
So not all builds that don't run Major Defile have 0% uptime? That's my take away from your comment.
If a debuff that is so easily accessible in a normal rotation has 100% uptime why not just take it out? Or just make light attacks apply Major Defile. At least that way non-stamina builds can fit Major Defile into their rotations without sacrificing too much.
I'm just asking for balance.
But again, it's not in every build, and therefore not in every rotation.
It's not balance when you're suggesting a 30% reduction in heals across the board. You're asking for a blanket counter to something that is not always present.
Have you been in PvP? Pretty much everyone is running Major Defile either via a set like Durok's, Reverb or Lethal Arrow. All 3 methods have 100% uptime by doing nothing outside the regular offensive rotation. Durok's is 100% uptime, Reverb is the stun before burst and Lethal Arrow it the bow's highest damage skill. These make up a easy majority of PvP builds atm.
Major Sorcery/Brutality/Resolve/Ward have longer uptime and aren't part of every rotation. If I'm running reverb, I'm fitting that in every rotation. If I run Snipe, It's going to be every other skill. Durok's is 100% uptime. So why even bother having it as a debuff if I can have it up 100% of the time without any thought. I need to remember to recast the other Major Buffs meanwhile I'm essentially keeping Major Defile up for "free", as in 0 thought required to keep it up and 0 opportunity cost because it doesn't break my offensive rotation.
I always hate if I forget to recast Rally or Spiked Armor but I never once have thought "man I forgot to cast reverb" or "i forgot to use Lethal Arrow". The uptime is 100% on builds that run it and most builds do run Major Defile. My opponents can't even counter Major Defile so it's a pointless debuff. Just decrease healing by 30% across the board and everyone is in the same boat.
You are absolutely right that defile is way too OP and way too easy to get but nerfing all healing by 30% isnt going to make things better. You are essentially proposing the same solution ZOS took with battle spirit. Dmg, heals, shields too high? Nerf everything by 50%. And then abilities, builds etc that were not overperforming became useless. Same thing you have now. Not every build, ability etc has OP healing. You will destroy such builds and abilities when you nerf them by 30%.1 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DeadlyRecluse wrote: »Remove major defile from skills like reverb/flare/snipe/incap
And replace it with minor defile.
Major defile on nova and shackle so stationary ults and two under used classes may see more play in groups.
Duroks should proc every 5 seconds.
And be up for 4
Or
remove befoul completely and still remove defile from Incap
There just needs to be a variation of befoul/defile removed and if healing is still strong remove it from cp
Now these are some solid suggestions...
Minor defile is a little too rare and major defile too common. Snipe, Flare, and Reverb should probably be minor. Incap being major seems fine, as it's an ult, but that's just an overloaded skill anyway.
Could magden keep major defile on corrupting pollen pls, or do we need to nerf that endangered species as well by some arbitrary rule set...
Lol... the fact no one even thinks of magden when discussing defile shows how rare and non threatening that sub class is in the current meta
For the record, I thought of magden, but major defille makes sense there, imo. It's not an easy skill to keep high uptime of defile active in small fights.
The one of the "issues" with snipe/dark flare having defile is that you do high damage with them too--if you spend a cooldown aiming and plopping an aoe defile I can move out of, that gives me a turn to recover or go on the offense--snipe, flare, and to a lesser/different extent, reverb, keep the offensive pressure rolling while defiling.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub1 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Are u guys stupid to say no ?
Defile is around 30% to 45% and it's constently apply on you in openworld. I don't even speak about stacking both minor and major debuffs.
If you remove it and make heals 30% less effective it's a BUFF for healing based build because they can't be defiled to death, also the health regen woudn't be defiled too.
it would balance everything easely, and it should be done.0