Sigil need to be removed from Deathmatch mode

sluice · April 2018

Daus wrote: »

sluice wrote: »

Agree.

The sigil makes Deathmatch stupid.

I've hit 25k Leap in non cp BG with the sigil.
It's dumb.

I've talked about this issue to many BG players... I never once heard anyone think the sigil were a good idea.

Hey there Sluice, long time no see! You still play with Apoc?

Sup man!

No, I've returned to PC.

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

sluice wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

sluice wrote: »

Agree.

The sigil makes Deathmatch stupid.

I've hit 25k Leap in non cp BG with the sigil.
It's dumb.

I've talked about this issue to many BG players... I never once heard anyone think the sigil were a good idea.

Hey there Sluice, long time no see! You still play with Apoc?

Sup man!

No, I've returned to PC.

Sadness

If you're on PC mind if I add you for when I'm on the PTS? Just PM your name. I'll tell you my PC name as well as my PSN since it's completely different than what you see on here.

Qbiken · April 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cuc7VbRRgSA

Sigil + Werewolf = GG

(Credit in the video goes to Aznox)

Gravord · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

They don't need to remove it necessarily. They could change it however.

That said most people still don't get it. There needs to be a mechanic to chase around, otherwise strong teams will just spawn camp the weakest ones. The point of the sigil is that you have to move, otherwise another team will pick it up and wipe you.

So if you want ZOS to listen, you have to come up with other proposals that keep the teams moving.

Isnt that the point of deathmatch? Better team win fast and its done, move to next match. Not some cowardly running after free double damage.

I'd argue the best team should also be smart enough to look for and pick up the Sigil then.

Look, I explained the reason why the dev team create mechanics where the teams need to move around. What you do with that is, frankly, up to you. But my guess is you'll have a hard time convincing the devs to remove the Sigil when you opine that the point of the Deathmatch is to spawn camp the opposition so that game ends fast.

So your point is that team that is clearly worse should have their damaged doubled? In what world is that fair and balanced? You are bad? You loose, get better for the next fight or keep loosing, dont count on sigil to replace lack of player skills.
Why team winning by their good gameplay should be penalize with their enemies getting double dmg while they are busy wiping another party and have no time or reason to chase some badly designed pve mechanic.
You have 4 other games modes to mindlessly run around doing great pve instead pvp, let at least deathmatch be what it name says it is.
Deathmatch take barely above 20 kills to end the game. Hardly spawn camping, little bit over 2 wipes on each team and its done.

Your posts are becoming nonsensical. I'll reply to this one, but If you want a discussion you'll need to back up your ideas and start thinking more before you type. Otherwise if you want to just vent, then I won't get in your way but you won't achieve anything by venting.

-So your point is that team that is clearly worse should have their damaged doubled?
No. If team A is worse than team B and is getting spawn-camped.. it's team C that picks up the sigil. Not team A, who can't leave their base. Therefore team B who is camping, is getting chased off their camp by team C. That's the point of the Sigil.

-Why team winning by their good gameplay should be penalize with their enemies getting double dmg?
"Good gameplay", is many things. Among which, is playing the objective. If you're surprised about being penalised for not playing the objective, then I don't know what to tell you. Moving to pick up the SIgil is a core part of the Deathmatch game objective. You can argue about the penalty perhaps being a different penalty to the current one, and I'd agree with you. But I've yet to see you make this point. Your point so far has been to entirely remove it.

-You have 4 other games modes to mindlessly run around doing great pve instead pvp, let at least deathmatch be what it name says it is.
Your argument does not hold in the slightest, because Deathmatch is not a running game. A Sigil spawns every 3 mins and has 30" duration. The rest of the time it's just killing players. Encouraging you to move once every 2.5 minutes is not a "running game".

- Deathmatch take barely above 20 kills to end the game.
Wrong. You need 500 points to win and it's 15 points per kill. A team needs 34 kills to win the game. It also lasts 15 mins. And Spawn camping someone for however long a game lasts can be a problem, yes. And the point is to discourage it.

Oka, let me respond to your points, some of them are good

- If team A is spawn camping team B, then its already distracted and vulnerably positioned for inc from team C. If team C by suprise attack from behind cant make a kill without double dmg, they dont deserve any kill at all.

- in deathmatch mode chasing pve mechanic should never be objective. Objective is to get more kills done and less deaths than enemy team, thats how good deathmatch work and anything distracting from it is a bad design for me.

- yes sigil doesnt spawn all the time, but each spawn interrupts fight because ppl either panicly run for their lives or run for sigil, non of that should have place in good deathmatch. 4 other game modes provide variety of non kill only objectives - cap pve flags, cap and run with item and so on. Having 1 game mode out of 5 purely pvp is not a big demand by any standards.

- About amount of kills it take to end deathmatch, you are absolutely right. Would be good idea to tone down amount of kills needed, 16-20 for a winning team would be sufficient, keep combat dynamic and minimalize possible spawn camping. There should be short timer for dead/loosing ppl to respawn and leave spawn area to go back to fight, to avoid cheap nerd rage not respawning to make fights longer just to *** enemy team. Weaker team should loose fast and move on to hopefully more balanced match.

Saturn · April 2018

I agree. I think the Sigil really only benefits premades anyway, since it's rare that random groups will be able to effectively utilise them. So it really only gives an advantage to those that are already winning, as opposed to the losing sides, as intended. It's basically meant to be an equalizer, which is pointless when the winning team can use them too.

Speaking of the changes to the BG queue, I wish it would be more like the dungeon queue, allowing you to choose each gamemode specifically, instead of just three categories. For example, I love Chaosball, but hate Capture the Relic, and they are in the same category, so I'm forced to play both if I queue for it.

NyassaV · April 2018

Rather than remove it why not just nerf it heavily... Either way I don't care. In it's current state it is too strong

Gravord · April 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Playerbase seems to be of same opinion more than any topic ever, can we get an update if its considered to remove Sigil for Summerset patch?

Feanor · April 2018

How about the Sigil giving Major Expedition for 30 seconds? That would be a nice thing in all game modes but not so completely overpowered as double damage.

Gravord · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

How about the Sigil giving Major Expedition for 30 seconds? That would be a nice thing in all game modes but not so completely overpowered as double damage.

Dont see much utylity for it in deathmatch. Id leave deathmatch pure pvp.

Feanor · April 2018

Gravord wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

How about the Sigil giving Major Expedition for 30 seconds? That would be a nice thing in all game modes but not so completely overpowered as double damage.

Dont see much utylity for it in deathmatch. Id leave deathmatch pure pvp.

Speed kills.

Gravord · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

How about the Sigil giving Major Expedition for 30 seconds? That would be a nice thing in all game modes but not so completely overpowered as double damage.

Dont see much utylity for it in deathmatch. Id leave deathmatch pure pvp.

Speed kills.

Most non range dd classes have gap closers for kills. It would be more likely used by nabbie builds like dodge+eternal hunt and similar who run for 2 minutes and only attempt any kill with ulti. In organized group play theres little need of this particular buff.

IAVITNI · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

They don't need to remove it necessarily. They could change it however.

That said most people still don't get it. There needs to be a mechanic to chase around, otherwise strong teams will just spawn camp the weakest ones. The point of the sigil is that you have to move, otherwise another team will pick it up and wipe you.

So if you want ZOS to listen, you have to come up with other proposals that keep the teams moving.

In this case the only real counter to the sigil is to run and I think that's where people are getting frustrated.

ZoS could experiment with a safe zone or counter sigil of some kind. Or even incentivizing killing those with a power sigil. For example, those with a sigil are worth 3x the points which would encourage two teams to counter 1, thereby justifying the double damage.

Or to prevent spawn camps, you get a 50% damage reduction for 5 seconds after dropping down.

Gravord · April 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

They don't need to remove it necessarily. They could change it however.

That said most people still don't get it. There needs to be a mechanic to chase around, otherwise strong teams will just spawn camp the weakest ones. The point of the sigil is that you have to move, otherwise another team will pick it up and wipe you.

So if you want ZOS to listen, you have to come up with other proposals that keep the teams moving.

In this case the only real counter to the sigil is to run and I think that's where people are getting frustrated.

ZoS could experiment with a safe zone or counter sigil of some kind. Or even incentivizing killing those with a power sigil. For example, those with a sigil are worth 3x the points which would encourage two teams to counter 1, thereby justifying the double damage.

Or to prevent spawn camps, you get a 50% damage reduction for 5 seconds after dropping down.

Not a bad idea but they would have to adress range dd shooting from safety of the spawns too.
Still would be great to get some official response about the sigil.

Gravord · May 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Still hoping for some sort of response to this important matter for players interested in pvp.

Lord_Ninka · May 2018

I am not a fan of the sigils either. It feels very much like if you don't know what locations to rush to when the sigil notification comes up you just don't stand a chance. It's only good that experienced players are usually able to beat inexperienced players, but not when half of the reason is they know sigil spawn locations by heart and grab them before newbies have a chance even to see where they were.

We might be discussing this in the wrong sub-forum though.

Gravord · May 2018

Gravord wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Still hoping for some sort of response to this important matter for players interested in pvp.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Vaoh · May 2018

It shouldn’t exist in any game mode imo.

Toc de Malsvi · May 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

It shouldn’t exist in any game mode imo.

Well I think it would be neat if it was simply implemented differently. Make it spawn in the team spawn points, and only after a team falls behind by 200-300 points.

oOMrSmileOo · May 2018

totally agreed
was a neither balanced or wanted feature in the first place...
just remove it zos

dsalter · May 2018

why not make it so the sigils only spawn near the last 3 minutes of the game? so if it drags out to much it allows the game to speed up?

Gravord · May 2018

dsalter wrote: »

why not make it so the sigils only spawn near the last 3 minutes of the game? so if it drags out to much it allows the game to speed up?

Well, if you have balanced teams with healers, fighting equal fight that takes bit longer than usual, then sigil spawn will create rng winner of that fight instead actual winner.

Gralor · May 2018

At it’s current state, remove it. Clearly not well thought out from @ZOS_BrianWheeler and his team.

Vaoh · May 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

It shouldn’t exist in any game mode imo.

Well I think it would be neat if it was simply implemented differently. Make it spawn in the team spawn points, and only after a team falls behind by 200-300 points.

That’d be much more reasonable, but even then it introduces such an imbalance to the game. It simply should not exist.

Imagine the scenario where the score is maybe Green (450), Purple (450), Orange (100).

Purple and Green are fighting it out, but the Orange comes along with their newfound massive damage buff and rekts Purple, only for Green to capitalize on the situation and steal kills via Mages Fury and then easily wipe the now defenseless Orange team. Instead of the fight playing out naturally, whoever the buffed team chooses to focus at that given moment will likely lose.

Not good PvP.

Zinaroth · May 2018

I can support the removal of the sigil - mostly because I don't know the spawn locations and they don't pop up on the mini map (at least from what I noticed and I have been very adamant with checking it when they spawn), but also because I would rather focus on doing good with my team than break up a team fight to go chase some buff in hopes me getting it and thus be able to cheese my way to victory.

Vaoh · May 2018

Zinaroth wrote: »

I can support the removal of the sigil - mostly because I don't know the spawn locations and they don't pop up on the mini map (at least from what I noticed and I have been very adamant with checking it when they spawn), but also because I would rather focus on doing good with my team than break up a team fight to go chase some buff in hopes me getting it and thus be able to cheese my way to victory.

If you know the locations and have snare immunity+Major Expedition, you can almost always get to it before anyone else. Then it’s an onslaught of free kills. Always worth breaking away from the team to get the sigil because even if you end up dying quickly, at least the opposing teams can’t grab it.

The buff is insanely strong.

Gravord · May 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

The buff is insanely strong.

And should have no place in any pvp design.

Mihael · May 2018

I don’t think the sigil should give an added damage bonus nor spawn at the beginning of the match because it gives teams that spawn close to it an unfair advantage

Instead I think it should spawn 1 minute into the bg , in the team that is in 3rd place base and it should give a defensive buff like minor protection and vitality. This way it helps the team stay alive longer and maybe secure some more kills

I think this is fair because it helps the team in last place in a way that they can get more kills but they actually have to use their skill to get them not just mindlessly ult dump because your team has double damage

Toc de Malsvi · May 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

It shouldn’t exist in any game mode imo.

Well I think it would be neat if it was simply implemented differently. Make it spawn in the team spawn points, and only after a team falls behind by 200-300 points.

That’d be much more reasonable, but even then it introduces such an imbalance to the game. It simply should not exist.

Imagine the scenario where the score is maybe Green (450), Purple (450), Orange (100).

Purple and Green are fighting it out, but the Orange comes along with their newfound massive damage buff and rekts Purple, only for Green to capitalize on the situation and steal kills via Mages Fury and then easily wipe the now defenseless Orange team. Instead of the fight playing out naturally, whoever the buffed team chooses to focus at that given moment will likely lose.

Not good PvP.

Well that imbalance is there regardless as 4v4v4 will always have an imbalance. The more equally balanced the teams with more advanced players, it will approach better balance. However the imbalance will always exist.

As to the power up in relation to games, no its not fair or balanced. It does create artificial scaling that makes players feel powerful if only for a few seconds. That temporary power or feeling thereof, can make players experience enjoyment in games where they are otherwise losing.

Balance for the sake of balance does not equate to fun, and as most players are playing for the sake of fun or enjoyment, creating balance doesn't necessarily make players want to play. I can remember many a BG, while CP was active in BG's, where the match was very competitive but also boring. Very few people were dying for any side, and mostly everyone was just running out of resources in giant mashups of teams at the middle of the map.

Even good players/teams that win most of their matches can be seen to become giddy with excitement after unleashing an ultimate while using the sigil.

Vaoh · May 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

It shouldn’t exist in any game mode imo.

Well I think it would be neat if it was simply implemented differently. Make it spawn in the team spawn points, and only after a team falls behind by 200-300 points.

That’d be much more reasonable, but even then it introduces such an imbalance to the game. It simply should not exist.

Imagine the scenario where the score is maybe Green (450), Purple (450), Orange (100).

Purple and Green are fighting it out, but the Orange comes along with their newfound massive damage buff and rekts Purple, only for Green to capitalize on the situation and steal kills via Mages Fury and then easily wipe the now defenseless Orange team. Instead of the fight playing out naturally, whoever the buffed team chooses to focus at that given moment will likely lose.

Not good PvP.

Well that imbalance is there regardless as 4v4v4 will always have an imbalance. The more equally balanced the teams with more advanced players, it will approach better balance. However the imbalance will always exist.

As to the power up in relation to games, no its not fair or balanced. It does create artificial scaling that makes players feel powerful if only for a few seconds. That temporary power or feeling thereof, can make players experience enjoyment in games where they are otherwise losing.

Balance for the sake of balance does not equate to fun, and as most players are playing for the sake of fun or enjoyment, creating balance doesn't necessarily make players want to play. I can remember many a BG, while CP was active in BG's, where the match was very competitive but also boring. Very few people were dying for any side, and mostly everyone was just running out of resources in giant mashups of teams at the middle of the map.

Even good players/teams that win most of their matches can be seen to become giddy with excitement after unleashing an ultimate while using the sigil.

.... that’s because CP made it boring lol. Tank v Tank sucks.

Competitive non-CP games are amazing.

There’s no argument to be made really. Power-up sigils are dumb and shouldn’t exist in BGs. Simple as that. Ofc it’s fun to go and one shot ppl with them and then laugh at how dumb it is, but it’s much less fun to be the player on the recieving end and know you died because they got an artificial “I win” buff.

Morgul667 · May 2018

The weird thing it is very strong and can disrupt the game balance.

However I do think a completely static death-match is not a good thing. I agree with Maulkin as to why it has been introduced, now the key thing is how to avoid such imbalance while keeping a secondary target that makes the game less static.