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PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Boy, I don't even...
I listed in THE VERY FIRST POST ABOUT THIS DISCUSSION:
"Shield, shield, Curse, Fury, Reach, Frag".
No wonder people are starting to think you're trolling.
Fine, I'll go over another time, whatever.
Sorc burst time is limited by two aspects. Shields and Curse. You HAVE to have your shields up BEFORE you attempt to burst, because the burst itself requires four seconds preparation, thanks to Curse NOT being able to held like Merciless.
This means that everytime you have to defend with a shield, break CC or get your Reach dodged, it nullifies six seconds in total.
Only noticeable exception is a roll dodge after a skill instead of shielding, but that is of limited availability...
You know what? I can't be bothered wasting any more if my time. Just watch the Malcolm video. He plays meta, he plays like me (just better), and he does meta right - there's a certain "skeleton" that defines metas, like Shacklebreaker, Amberplasm, Master Reach and shieldstack. He knows, acknowledges, uses that - and THEN personalizes it - well-fitted over impen.
THAT'S how you sprinkle individuality over builds, THAT'S what I'm talking about. Not rush in here with ridiculous niche builds andcdemand them to be brought up to meta and considered in balancing discussions, while also being decidedly rude and dusrespectful to the people that, you know, have just been bleeding their class since Big Bang.
Now, go. You have a video to watch. And if you already did, then DO IT AGAIN!
Wow, did you get so triggered (for whatever reason) you can't even spell correctly anymore?
I quite frankly don't care if a sorc has to spam dmg shields to survive in PvP. Guess what, I also have to spam dodge rolls (like any other medium armor build) and a tank build has to block & spam heals, but you don't hear me or anyone else b*tching about it.
If you change some numbers on a spreadsheet and still play the game in a similar fashion to everyone else, you're still playing a meta build (if not in your own eyes, then in the eyes of everyone who fights against you atleast). Nothing wrong with that of course, whatever floats your boat.
There are people though that don't enjoy being carbon copies of the person next to them and these people deserve to be treated as equals, not like some second class citizens.
Also I don't see what having played "your class" since year X has to do anything (besides the obvious bias it creates). For all I know (I don't, so please don't be offended) you could be god awful at this game & never learned anything over the years.
I'd say that to fully know how your class interacts with other classes you need to play (or at the very least understand) those other classes as well. And not just the popular meta builds, but also the less popular ones that play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.
Once you have all that down then you can begin to understand game balance.
That's just my take on things, sorry for any "dusrespect" you may perceive in my post.
I respect that you pretty much admit loving the playstyle of jumping out of stealth, deleting people quickly, and then escaping. Your class has been the anathema of just about everyone but other nightblades for a couple of patches now. You’re used to it, and maybe feeling just a little entitled.
Don’t deny it. It’s fun. I agree with you. I watch the videos and cheer along every time the YouTube hero kills someone before they can stand up.
However it’s not fun for the target. Or anyone playing against you. Basically unless you make a mistake (your own words) you never get caught and die. ZOS took every tool away that people used to deal with you. Undodgable power lash, undodgable birds, that huge snare on soul assault, the stun on crystal fragments. You’ve had your fun running Cyrodiil, now that’s over. The risk of running an instant delete build just went way up.
There have been 50,000 nerf nightblade threads for a reason. People are mad, but most of them can’t articulate why except ‘nerf NB now! Remove incap from the game!’
Putting SOME damage on cage is going to help us deal with stealth classes, because we get such a tiny window of burst before you’re completely gone - especially with the new shade changes. That cage tooltip probably shouldn’t be 10K, and in most cases it won’t be unless it’s a really niche dueling build with no sustain. The reason it needs damage is simple: sometimes when I don’t make any mistakes on my Sorc, I just might kill you. Right now at best I can hope to run you off.
‘Good players always adapt’ and it’s true. Survivability, sustain, and damage are sliders on EVERY build in the game. You can tune small bits of your build for more defense, impen, armor rating, and health, usually at the cost of damage or sustain. I think you might have to do that mate.
Please keep the reply in one piece, its easier to reply to on a phone.
I'm sorry, but if at the moment you have problems vs NBs as a Sorcerer (the class with by far the strongest counters vs dodge roll/cloak), the problem lies elsewhere.
You could be a bit less antagonistic with your posts, I actually agree with many of the concerns people have with Nightblade. I don't think people should be able to sustain infinite dodge rolling/cloaking for instance, and I think Incap+Relentless is a bit too easy to pull off & it could be better if Incap had no stun (except vs targets at higher health total, like how it used to work before).
Nightblades aren't one entity however. The "instant delete" builds aren't the ones dodge rolling/cloaking around infinitely (unless you count Incap Relentless as "instant delete", despite it requiring setup & target with avg or below skill level) and viceversa.
What if I told you that the vast majority of NB builds out there are rollerblades, and that very, very few people actually play a high dmg build?
Even less play them efficiently and this is for one reason: these builds are hard to play and leave no room for mistakes.
So do these builds deserve to get blown up despite making no mistakes by undodgeable unblockable unsurvivable 28m abilities? No, they don't.
Should rollerblades have better counters for them? Probably, though not on the level of the old Power Lashes (no medium stamblade in the entire game lived past the 1st/2nd Fossilize for months vs my mDK, until ZOS finally saw sense & toned them down), and those were nothing compared to Rune Cage on PTS.
The solution should be making those builds harder to play by making the burst combo require an outside CC element (not inbuilt one with Incap) & infinite dodge rolling needs to be fixed.
As to the whole "adapt, play a tank build" argument, how about you do the same: drop 10k magicka, put it into health and see how that works out? Yeah, didn't think so...
Believe it or not, some people find it boring to play tank builds with zero dmg that spend 30 minutes trying to kill some cp300 s&b heal tanks, or trashy sorc sustain builds that can't burst squishy medium armor builds on Live.
I’m not trying to antagonize you. Honestly.
But the fact is ZOS isn’t going to fix anything that you and I agree are wrong on nightblade. We can agree on it all day long: Dodge roll costs. Bow damage too high. Incap combos. Instant death builds. Permanent stealth. Incap giving SIX seconds of 20% more damage. Killing a nightblade, a good night lade isn’t an L2P issue if the NB is any good at all.
ZOS honestly didn’t change any of that this patch. So I’m honestly just not that upset about getting damage on cage. Why is my one class issue worse than ALL of yours combined?
You see why people get defensive and bent out of shape about stealth NB’s crying for nerfs to other classes?
Besides Incap, how many of those things you listed are actually NB issues? Ok, infinite dodge rolling sort of, because other classes have tougher time doing so without cloak to reset the stacking cost modifier.
Rest of the things are actually universal issues, and some not issues at all.
Take "bow damage" for instance - did you know a stamina sorcerer actually hits for 300 (150 in PvP) more damage with the combo and has a chance for Implosion procs with follow up LAs/Bombard?
Not that "bow damage" is an issue in the first place. I can deal more damage with a cloak dw heavy attack+sa incap (almost guaranteed Selene proc) in the same timespan, but of course getting away from a zerg afterwards is much harder when you're in middle of them with a high dmg limited sustain build.
Dark Flare gankplar also deals same dmg with its combo and overload gank actually deals almost double (though it is a bit harder to land).
There is no issue with bow damage, unless you mean lack of it in every scenario where you fail to burst someone from stealth. Good luck winning a duel on bow build for example.
If you have issues with actual NB issues, I suggest taking those to the NB feedback thread.Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2018 9:14AM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I’m not trying to antagonize you. Honestly.
But the fact is ZOS isn’t going to fix anything that you and I agree are wrong on nightblade. We can agree on it all day long: Dodge roll costs. Bow damage too high. Incap combos. Instant death builds. Permanent stealth. Incap giving SIX seconds of 20% more damage. Killing a nightblade, a good night lade isn’t an L2P issue if the NB is any good at all.
ZOS honestly didn’t change any of that this patch. So I’m honestly just not that upset about getting damage on cage. Why is my one class issue worse than ALL of yours combined?
You see why people get defensive and bent out of shape about stealth NB’s crying for nerfs to other classes?
It´s the same reasoning i got upset when people cried for sorc nerfs back in homestead. I´d been playing a nonmeta build that felt rewarding but in no way was as powerful as shieldstack + pirate amberplasm.
It´s shifts perspective of your own classissues, issues with other classes and general game issues.
The problem is that you have to also play your own classes meta builds a lot to get a wholesome perspective aswell (which i believe deci doesn´t do) - because if we´re all being honest here. ZOS wants those meta builds. It´s easier to balance the game around metas for different classes than to balance around every special snowflake.
Ah, so now we're defending the monotonous, boring PvP where every fight is practically a replica of the previous one by saying "it's easier to balance only a few viable builds". Brilliant, I really hope Zenimax doesn't listen to players like you, because that'd be the end of this game.
Meanwhile I'm working my *** off to find new ways to not only enjoy this game personally, but also make Cyrodiil & PvP more interesting for everyone than just running around and going "oh, another unoriginal tank build that takes 30 minutes to kill", "oh, another rollerblade rolling around a tower with 15 pugs chasing", "oh, another shield stacking meta sorc".
No, to hell with that and you're right, I'd rather drink bleach than play something as unoriginal and boring as a meta rollerblade with infinite sustain.
I have tested it of course for benchmarks on stamina/magicka consumption etc, but I'd never start playing one in PvP & contribute to the stale PvP meta. What good would that do, it'd just make the game worse for me and everyone else (especially if I was to make the 96th build video on youtube featuring Shacklebreaker & Bone Pirate with a special cameo from Troll King or some other cancer set).Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2018 9:34AM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is no issue with bow damage, unless you mean lack of it in every scenario where you fail to burst someone from stealth. Good luck winning a duel on bow build for example.
Is bow intended to be a primary dps weapon though? To me it seems more like a supplementary weaponset not really meant to be the primary weapon used in a fight (outside of the function as a range enabler for stamina in keepfights).
We may disagree with that choice but imo nothing points towards bow being intended for the purpose you´d like to use it for.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’m not trying to antagonize you. Honestly.
But the fact is ZOS isn’t going to fix anything that you and I agree are wrong on nightblade. We can agree on it all day long: Dodge roll costs. Bow damage too high. Incap combos. Instant death builds. Permanent stealth. Incap giving SIX seconds of 20% more damage. Killing a nightblade, a good night lade isn’t an L2P issue if the NB is any good at all.
ZOS honestly didn’t change any of that this patch. So I’m honestly just not that upset about getting damage on cage. Why is my one class issue worse than ALL of yours combined?
You see why people get defensive and bent out of shape about stealth NB’s crying for nerfs to other classes?
It´s the same reasoning i got upset when people cried for sorc nerfs back in homestead. I´d been playing a nonmeta build that felt rewarding but in no way was as powerful as shieldstack + pirate amberplasm.
It´s shifts perspective of your own classissues, issues with other classes and general game issues.
The problem is that you have to also play your own classes meta builds a lot to get a wholesome perspective aswell (which i believe deci doesn´t do) - because if we´re all being honest here. ZOS wants those meta builds. It´s easier to balance the game around metas for different classes than to balance around every special snowflake.
Ah, so now we're defending the monotonous, boring PvP where every fight is practically a replica of the previous one by saying "it's easier to balance only a few viable builds". Brilliant, I really hope Zenimax doesn't listen to players like you, because that'd be the end of this game.
Meanwhile I'm working my *** off to find new ways to not only enjoy this game personally, but also make Cyrodiil & PvP more interesting for everyone than just running around and going "oh, another unoriginal tank build that takes 30 minutes to kill", "oh, another rollerblade rolling around a tower with 15 pugs chasing", "oh, another shield stacking meta sorc".
No, to hell with that and you're right, I'd rather drink bleach than play something as unoriginal and boring as a meta rollerblade with infinite sustain.
I have tested it of course for benchmarks on stamina/magicka consumption etc, but I'd never start playing one in PvP & contribute to the stale PvP meta. What good does that do, except make the game worse for me and everyone else?
Which is why you make rather pointless arguments about nonmeta nonvaible build X being worse than nonmeta nonvaible build Y - not realizing that both are entirely trivial because they´re so niche.
Also i didn´t defend it.
I just stated what i think is a pretty obvious fact. Meta is inevitable. The game getting balanced around what is played most because it´s easier for the devs. All they can do is shift metaplay. You can´t break it.
I think it´s pretty funny that you think you´re helping anyone but yourself though - considering half of the tankbuilds you complain about exist in the first place because of the instantkills from stealth you´re enjoying so much (the other half existing bc of blobgrps, and zos nerfing mobility and counterplay to snip).
I´m dying
Edited by Derra on April 30, 2018 9:40AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There is no issue with bow damage, unless you mean lack of it in every scenario where you fail to burst someone from stealth. Good luck winning a duel on bow build for example.
Is bow intended to be a primary dps weapon though? To me it seems more like a supplementary weaponset not really meant to be the primary weapon used in a fight (outside of the function as a range enabler for stamina in keepfights).
We may disagree with that choice but imo nothing points towards bow being intended for the purpose you´d like to use it for.
I am using it for the purpose I think it's meant for: killing people. And it's working as you very well know.
If it was as you say, what would you say to people who played Hunter in Wow or Ranger in BDO? "Sorry, equip a melee weapon because your playstyle is not allowed"?
That is an incredibly toxic mindset to have and would only serve to degrade this game.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I’m not trying to antagonize you. Honestly.
But the fact is ZOS isn’t going to fix anything that you and I agree are wrong on nightblade. We can agree on it all day long: Dodge roll costs. Bow damage too high. Incap combos. Instant death builds. Permanent stealth. Incap giving SIX seconds of 20% more damage. Killing a nightblade, a good night lade isn’t an L2P issue if the NB is any good at all.
ZOS honestly didn’t change any of that this patch. So I’m honestly just not that upset about getting damage on cage. Why is my one class issue worse than ALL of yours combined?
You see why people get defensive and bent out of shape about stealth NB’s crying for nerfs to other classes?
It´s the same reasoning i got upset when people cried for sorc nerfs back in homestead. I´d been playing a nonmeta build that felt rewarding but in no way was as powerful as shieldstack + pirate amberplasm.
It´s shifts perspective of your own classissues, issues with other classes and general game issues.
The problem is that you have to also play your own classes meta builds a lot to get a wholesome perspective aswell (which i believe deci doesn´t do) - because if we´re all being honest here. ZOS wants those meta builds. It´s easier to balance the game around metas for different classes than to balance around every special snowflake.
Ah, so now we're defending the monotonous, boring PvP where every fight is practically a replica of the previous one by saying "it's easier to balance only a few viable builds". Brilliant, I really hope Zenimax doesn't listen to players like you, because that'd be the end of this game.
Meanwhile I'm working my *** off to find new ways to not only enjoy this game personally, but also make Cyrodiil & PvP more interesting for everyone than just running around and going "oh, another unoriginal tank build that takes 30 minutes to kill", "oh, another rollerblade rolling around a tower with 15 pugs chasing", "oh, another shield stacking meta sorc".
No, to hell with that and you're right, I'd rather drink bleach than play something as unoriginal and boring as a meta rollerblade with infinite sustain.
I have tested it of course for benchmarks on stamina/magicka consumption etc, but I'd never start playing one in PvP & contribute to the stale PvP meta. What good does that do, except make the game worse for me and everyone else?
Which is why you make rather pointless arguments about nonmeta nonvaible build X being worse than nonmeta nonvaible build Y - not realizing that both are entirely trivial because they´re so niche.
Right, except my "nonmeta nonviable" builds usually tend to outperform the actual "meta builds", which are actually just a byproduct of what is the easiest to play/build (not what is the most viable or efficient).Also i didn´t defend it.
I just stated what i think is a pretty obvious fact. Meta is inevitable. The game getting balanced around what is played most because it´s easier for the devs. All they can do is shift metaplay. You can´t break it.
Yes you did, and you're defending it again. You'd have a point if the game had as much classes as the competing MMOs out there, but it doesn't. ESO is designed around minimum amount of classes, but maximum amount of options for them.
Which means build diversity is necessary to cater to RPG tropes that aren't represented by an actual class in game.
Like the "rogue" or "ranger" or "priest" or "warlock" etc.
If you don't cater to those RPG staples, you alienate players.
No bueno for business.
Luckily some of us still work hard to break the meta and sometimes succeed.
Sometimes too well, like with the Fasallas Malubeth heavy magplar ("Paladin") I created in 2016 which actually became the meta for a long time. Woops.
My destro/resto mDK build definitely breathed some fresh air into the S&B tank infested DK meta as well and you can now see those builds every now & then in Cyrodiil and elsewhere, while it didn't actually become a dominant enough build to be considered "the meta".
So yeah, you're wrong. I think players can:- Break the meta by making builds that make the lives of actual meta builds a living hell. E.g. shield breaker/sload vs dmg shields.
- Shift the meta by making builds so strong they become meta.
- Introduce new alternatives to the meta, i.e. like how sorcs have both pet builds & regular builds, or how there's stealth oriented NBs (well, a few atleast), heavy armor bleed builds & rollerblades.
I think it´s pretty funny that you think you´re helping anyone but yourself though - considering half of the tankbuilds you complain about exist in the first place because of the instantkills from stealth you´re enjoying so much (the other half existing bc of blobgrps, and zos nerfing mobility and counterplay to snip).
I´m dying
Right, because obviously stealth instakillers are everywhere & not rollerblades :rolls eyes:
Tank builds are everywhere because they're easy to play, just like rollerblades. You can make mistakes and you don't get punished by them - you simply heal (or shield) back up & keep going.
It may come as a surprise, but most players gravitate towards "easy", especially new players.
I also don't know where you get the idea that stealth builds are the only ones I enjoy playing. I've made multiple builds on multiple different classes.
In fact, I even specifically make those builds resistant to my own gank builds by making sure they have enough impen/health if they're builds that can't avoid them otherwise.
My mDK for instance is 100% gank proof with 25k health & 7 impen (survives asylum snipe with around 4-5k health).
I'm hardly "helping myself" by making these builds public and helping people survive other builds I enjoy playing (i.e. Asylum Snipe).
As a sidenote, when did this become some big ad hominem argument about me & whether my builds/playstyles should exist? This thread is about sorcerer balance and changes that affect much more than just the few builds I've created, which are really just a raindrop in an ocean of builds that are ruined when they're forced to get 8-10k more health to compensate for 5-6k rune cage crits & 3-4k more dmg taken from the light attacks that land during that CC.Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2018 11:00AM0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Are you guys still going?
Somebody let me know with an @-reference when you're done and we can get back to some meaningful discussion.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.10 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a sidenote, when did this become some big ad hominem argument about me & whether my builds/playstyles should exist?
It´s inevitable to attack your builds (whether you´re feeling attacked by this personally is on you) if you base most of your arguments on the viability of those builds and playstyles.Right, except my "nonmeta nonviable" builds usually tend to outperform the actual "meta builds", which are actually just a byproduct of what is the easiest to play/build (not what is the most viable or efficient).
Just that - they´re not.
You want to think they are - because you want to feel special, or superior, or whatever because you play them and other builds are "easy".
Imo if a build has a small margin of error in an environment that´s not controllable its a bad build *shrug*.
Nothing vaible or efficient about being dead.So yeah, you're wrong. I think players can:
[*] Shift the meta by making builds so strong they become meta.
[*] Introduce new alternatives to the meta, i.e. like how sorcs have both pet builds & regular builds, or how there's stealth oriented NBs (well, a few atleast), heavy armor bleed builds & rollerblades.
Your points 2 and 3 still evolve around metaplay which the game will get balanced around no?
Break the meta point is pretty funny though. You must loooove piercing mark by that logic.
Imo breaking the meta by introducing stupid hardcounters to mechanics that don´t have alternatives is really toxic (i personally think piercing mark is terrible sload is nonsense and shieldbreaker is garbage).Edited by Derra on April 30, 2018 12:12PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As a sidenote, when did this become some big ad hominem argument about me & whether my builds/playstyles should exist?
It´s inevitable to attack your builds (whether you´re feeling attacked by this personally is on you) if you base most of your arguments on the viability of those builds and playstyles.
Is it? Or are you just attacking them because you dislike my playstyle?
After all you did the same with the whole Miats fiasco, defended the pretty universally hated cheat combat notifications that affected multiple builds because "atleast it made stealth builds useless". Sad.
Again we're in a situation where something stands to negatively affect a large variety of non-tank builds and you're here defending it & attacking me because it's a chance to also weaken some "nonviable nonmeta" builds you have some irrational hatred of.
Well colour me surprised /sRight, except my "nonmeta nonviable" builds usually tend to outperform the actual "meta builds", which are actually just a byproduct of what is the easiest to play/build (not what is the most viable or efficient).
Just that - they´re not.
You want to think they are - because you want to feel special, or superior, or whatever because you play them and other builds are "easy".
Imo if a build has a small margin of error in an environment that´s not controllable its a bad build *shrug*.
Nothing vaible or efficient about being dead.
...and you have every right to that opinion.
My opinion is that the build that gets more kills/minute and is capable of killing more skilled players than other builds even in 1vX scenario (thanks to stealth burst) is the more viable/efficient one, if you can stay alive on it.
If you value staying alive more than getting kills that's your prerogative, but then don't come here like some other people have done and complain that it's too difficult to kill rollerblades and others and how an i-win button that goes through dodge/block is thus "justified".So yeah, you're wrong. I think players can:
[*] Shift the meta by making builds so strong they become meta.
[*] Introduce new alternatives to the meta, i.e. like how sorcs have both pet builds & regular builds, or how there's stealth oriented NBs (well, a few atleast), heavy armor bleed builds & rollerblades.
Your points 2 and 3 still evolve around metaplay which the game will get balanced around no?
Break the meta point is pretty funny though. You must loooove piercing mark by that logic.
Imo breaking the meta by introducing stupid hardcounters to mechanics that don´t have alternatives is really toxic (i personally think piercing mark is terrible sload is nonsense and shieldbreaker is garbage).
I hate Piercing Mark - mostly because it isn't the meta rollerblades that it affects most (they can still spam dodge roll) but builds like mine that are more dependent on stealth & sublety.
Piercing Mark=speed pot & run, it's not the end, unless that person also uses speed pots & has a gap closer slotted. Atleast NBs don't have damaging abilities that ignore dodge roll entirely so as long as sustain permits that option is available for survivability.Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2018 1:26PM0 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭Are you guys still going?
Somebody let me know with an @-reference when you're done and we can get back to some meaningful discussion.
We rly need a thread: @DDuke vs @Derra where they can argument over everything all day long.
Im skipping anyways over all these wall of textes about trival things things they discuss:
Like 4 FORUM pages of discussion if siphoning or surge heals more - with the result that Deci talked about stam nb vs stamsorc and Derra about mag sorc and mag nb.
Edited by Murador178 on April 30, 2018 1:36PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »Are you guys still going?
Somebody let me know with an @-reference when you're done and we can get back to some meaningful discussion.
We rly need a thread: @DDuke vs @Derra where they can argument over everything all day long.
Im skipping anyways over all these wall of textes about trival things things they discuss:
Like 4 pages of discussion if siphoning or surge heals more - with the result that Deci talked about stam nb vs stamsorc and Derra about mag sorc and mag nb.
Please, don't encourage him to post more bigoted opinions of how builds Derra likes are meta & allowed, while builds that Derra dislikes are nonmeta & not allowed, no good will come of that.
One thing you'll never find me stating is "that build should not exist". Even builds I really, really dislike (i.e. shield stacking/tanking oriented builds & rollerblades) deserve to exist & be viable because there are people who enjoy playing them (who knows why, but that's that another topic).
This should probably go in the NB topic, but I'm still 100% convinced Surge is better heals even on mag Sorc/NB. Maths are behind that assessment, as are my own experiences on magblade/mSorc.
People don't slot either of those skills for healing though, so I don't see the point of discussing that further.Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2018 1:45PM1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Sorcs will have access to essentially a spammable with imbue.
I am thinking Sorcs will be the top class for PvP in Summerset
Execute, Burst, healing and sustainable pressure will all be accessible.
With Magden getting nerfed Sorcs will also have the strongest class with unparalleled shield stacking.
I think the second coming of Sorc is upon us.
Get ready for a ton of Nerf threads
Not sorcs, magicka sorcs.2 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭I think before u guys on u should read some stuff about mathematical description of balance and systems:
start with something easy like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium
I didnt find it but Im pretty sure in a complex of system like eso u can always only balance few percent(not even) of the builds with each other resulting in a big number of builds not being viable
.
Edited by Murador178 on April 30, 2018 2:13PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »Are you guys still going?
Somebody let me know with an @-reference when you're done and we can get back to some meaningful discussion.
We rly need a thread: @DDuke vs @Derra where they can argument over everything all day long.
Im skipping anyways over all these wall of textes about trival things things they discuss:
Like 4 pages of discussion if siphoning or surge heals more - with the result that Deci talked about stam nb vs stamsorc and Derra about mag sorc and mag nb.
Please, don't encourage him to post more bigoted opinions of how builds Derra likes are meta & allowed, while builds that Derra dislikes are nonmeta & not allowed, no good will come of that.
One thing you'll never find me stating is "that build should not exist". Even builds I really, really dislike (i.e. shield stacking/tanking oriented builds & rollerblades) deserve to exist & be viable because there are people who enjoy playing them (who knows why, but that's that another topic).
This should probably go in the NB topic, but I'm still 100% convinced Surge is better heals even on mag Sorc/NB. Maths are behind that assessment, as are my own experiences on magblade/mSorc.
People don't slot either of those skills for healing though, so I don't see the point of discussing that further.
How am i having bigoted opinions though? I´m not the one creating a totally niche setup demanding ability x get smacked by the nerfhammer because it overperforms on that setup do i?
I also don´t say what is allowed or not - you´re doing that by stating x is op and shouldn´t be allowed because you deem it too good against sth else.
Then you´re putting me out of context. When i state builds/mechanics should not exist i do so because these builds/mechanics allow for too little or no counterplay which leads me to my opinion that those are detrimental to the playingexperience as i firmly believe that a fight always involves two parties and those two parties should both be able to influence the outcome of that fight by actually fighting (ideally have fun - but you can twist that by stating you don´t find fighting tanks/shields fun - so i have to go for ability to participate in a meaningful way).
It´s nice that you´re still convinced.
Maths you´ve shown are fabricated to prove your point. Great argument to make.
I´ve tested it in actual ingame dueling environment - where i haven´t seen you too often on either magblade or magsorc builds where this would be relevant to form your own opinion.
Also i´m not even in favor of keeping runeprison as is Edited by Derra on April 30, 2018 2:24PM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭1. Non sorcs in a sorc threading [snip] about OPness. Check
2. Is said person a nightblade? Check
3. Do they and derail the entire conversation in an attempt to push their agenda against a class they dont play? Check
Just another Sorc thread. Nothing to see here.
[Edited to remove profanity]Edited by ZOS_KatP on May 6, 2018 3:53PM19 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭grannas211 wrote: »1. Non sorcs in a sorc threading [snip] about OPness. Check
2. Is said person a nightblade? Check
3. Do they and derail the entire conversation in an attempt to push their agenda against a class they dont play? Check
Just another Sorc thread. Nothing to see here.
Time to go outside i guess
[Edited for quote]Edited by ZOS_KatP on May 6, 2018 3:53PM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »Are you guys still going?
Somebody let me know with an @-reference when you're done and we can get back to some meaningful discussion.
We rly need a thread: @DDuke vs @Derra where they can argument over everything all day long.
Im skipping anyways over all these wall of textes about trival things things they discuss:
Like 4 pages of discussion if siphoning or surge heals more - with the result that Deci talked about stam nb vs stamsorc and Derra about mag sorc and mag nb.
Please, don't encourage him to post more bigoted opinions of how builds Derra likes are meta & allowed, while builds that Derra dislikes are nonmeta & not allowed, no good will come of that.
One thing you'll never find me stating is "that build should not exist". Even builds I really, really dislike (i.e. shield stacking/tanking oriented builds & rollerblades) deserve to exist & be viable because there are people who enjoy playing them (who knows why, but that's that another topic).
This should probably go in the NB topic, but I'm still 100% convinced Surge is better heals even on mag Sorc/NB. Maths are behind that assessment, as are my own experiences on magblade/mSorc.
People don't slot either of those skills for healing though, so I don't see the point of discussing that further.
How am i having bigoted opinions though? I´m not the one creating a totally niche setup demanding ability x get smacked by the nerfhammer because it overperforms on that setup do i?
I also don´t say what is allowed or not - you´re doing that by stating x is op and shouldn´t be allowed because you deem it too good against sth else.
"Niche setup" is again an opinion of yours that doesn't really reflect reality, but whatever.
I am not simply saying "X is op", I'm specifically saying X is op against Y and should be op against Z instead, because Z is the problem.
If it wasn't clear yet:
X=Rune Cage
Y=Non-tank builds
Z=Tank buildsThen you´re putting me out of context. When i state builds/mechanics should not exist i do so because these builds/mechanics allow for too little or no counterplay which leads me to my opinion that those are detrimental to the playingexperience as i firmly believe that a fight always involves two parties and those two parties should both be able to influence the outcome of that fight by actually fighting (ideally have fun - but you can twist that by stating you don´t find fighting tanks/shields fun - so i have to go for ability to participate in a meaningful way).
...and how does a stealth oriented build participate in a meaningful way, if not by utilizing stealth in the only viable manner the game allows? Would be cool if there were other ways to utilize it as a central piece of your gameplay, but there aren't.
Spamming shields or blocking/mitigating with 30k health pool with infinite regen also allows for little to no counterplay and leads to an even more boring & frustrating gameplay experience than getting ganked by someone because it creates a prolonged state of helplessness as you try to kill someone who can't be killed (atleast in a 1v1), no matter how many mistakes they make.
But you don't see me screaming how shields & blocking should be entirely removed from the game.It´s nice that you´re still convinced.
Maths you´ve shown are fabricated to prove your point. Great argument to make.
I´ve tested it in actual ingame dueling environment - where i haven´t seen you too often on either magblade or magsorc builds where this would be relevant to form your own opinion.
Also i´m not even in favor of keeping runeprison as is
You don't see me at duels for the above reason, I find watching paint dry more enjoyable than the current tank vs tank ResidentSleeper duels.Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2018 2:39PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭grannas211 wrote: »1. Non sorcs in a sorc threading [snip] about OPness. Check
2. Is said person a nightblade? Check
3. Do they and derail the entire conversation in an attempt to push their agenda against a class they dont play? Check
Just another Sorc thread. Nothing to see here.- Of a single ability, against certain builds (i.e. builds that aren't 30k+ health megatanks). I'd love to even see it buffed against builds that sorcs could use help against. But sure, keep on antagonizing me.
- Actually I have 10 characters, each with atleast 15 days /played time. I have multiple PvP videos/builds on my channel of other classes than Nightblade.
- As a matter of fact I'm looking forward to trying out Bow Stam Sorc next patch, as it could finally be viable (unless the current Rune Cage goes Live that is).
That's third strike and you're out.
[Edited for quote]Edited by ZOS_KatP on May 6, 2018 3:53PM1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭...and how does a stealth oriented build participate in a meaningful way, if not by utilizing stealth in the only viable manner the game allows? Would be cool if there were other ways to utilize it as a central piece of your gameplay, but there aren't.
I don´t know - Edit: Skip that i do know: My problem isn´t instantkilling from sneak per se - it´s that sneak/stealth is achieveable permantly with the exception of 1s when killing the opponent. If sneak wasn´t permanent but rather a time based tool i wouldn´t have issue. I might even be inclined to say zos could buff sneak/stealth based builds in that case.
...but i believe that participation at the cost of eliminating that possibility for the opponent is a toxic and selfish attitude.
I´d rather not play a game that only gives me that choice
Since i´m aware of the fact that this isn´t normal i´d rather not have the situation in the first place."Niche setup" is again an opinion of yours that doesn't really reflect reality, but whatever.
What reality? PTS dueling?You don't see me at duels for the above reason, I find watching paint dry more enjoyable than the current tank vs tank ResidentSleeper duels.
What playing experience do you base your conclusion on powersurge vs siphoning healing on then?Edited by Derra on April 30, 2018 3:01PM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭
What playing experience do you base your conclusion on powersurge vs siphoning healing on then?
Thats quite easy:
He tracked openworld with a standard mNB for a week the percentage of light attacks that got rolled/shuffled. And tracked playing a week of mSorc the amount of surge heals he gets in a given time interval. With these numbers the problem can be solved with simple maths(more like counting).
Edited by Murador178 on April 30, 2018 3:01PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »
What playing experience do you base your conclusion on powersurge vs siphoning healing on then?
Thats quite easy:
He tracked openworld with a standard mNB for a week the percentage of light attacks that got rolled/shuffled. And tracked playing a week of mSorc the amount of surge heals he gets in a given time interval. With these numbers the problem can be solved with simple maths(more like counting).
Which is what i did for duels (actual fighting (semi)competent) opponents) with a sorc build without shields and my NB on the same build.
Open world skews results for the actual in combat heal in favor of surge - because NB utilizes cloak + healingward open world reducing heal produced by siphoning whereas sorc doesn´t do the same for surge.Edited by Derra on April 30, 2018 3:06PM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭...and how does a stealth oriented build participate in a meaningful way, if not by utilizing stealth in the only viable manner the game allows? Would be cool if there were other ways to utilize it as a central piece of your gameplay, but there aren't.
I don´t know - but i believe that participation at the cost of eliminating that possibility for the opponent is a toxic and selfish attitude.
I´d rather not play a game that only gives me that choice
Since i´m aware of the fact that this isn´t normal i´d rather not have the situation in the first place.
It's more normal than you think. In some MMOs you can/could stunlock people to death from 100>0 if their trinkets were on cooldown, in others you can deal damage while invisible & end a fight without ever dropping stealth. In many gear advantage allows you to one shot people.
Is it broken? Yeah, I'd say so. But what is the alternative of playing a 30k health unkillable megatank, or someone with 30k+ shields stacked & infinite regen then?
When forced to choose between two broken things, I will always choose the broken thing that I can atleast enjoy playing.
Personally I don't even mind getting ganked.
I mind much more spending 5+ minutes trying to get past someone's shields or 30k health pool+mitigation despite building full dmg precisely to avoid such scenarios, and then dying because of running out of resources (or zerg arrives) & getting teabagged.
Atleast ganking requires light years more skill than playing a build that lets you make every mistake in the universe and still survive, so I can feel like maybe I died to a good player (or good build atleast).
Uhm, real PvP like Cyrodiil? BGs?
I really don't care about duels, haven't for a long time.
The above, as well as math (you can find it in the NB thread) & common sense.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »
What playing experience do you base your conclusion on powersurge vs siphoning healing on then?
Thats quite easy:
He tracked openworld with a standard mNB for a week the percentage of light attacks that got rolled/shuffled. And tracked playing a week of mSorc the amount of surge heals he gets in a given time interval. With these numbers the problem can be solved with simple maths(more like counting).
Nothing that fancy lol.
I've just played with both & noticed how they impact my survivability.
You won't notice Surge heals as much when Hardened+Harness more often than not prevents you from taking damage that could be healed in the first place and casting Twilight puts you to 100% anyway with the low sorc health pools, where as mNB only has Healing Ward so of course you notice Siphoning healing more than Surge. Doesn't mean it actually does, if the abilities swapped place on both classes.
This is a pointless discussion of "what ifs" to have though, all I can say is that I rarely find bar space for Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks on neither stamblade or magblade (personal opinion: it's a garbage skill), while Crit Surge is on pretty much every sorc build I create (stam or magicka) except dueling setup where I use spell power pots.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Uhm, real PvP like Cyrodiil? BGs?
I really don't care about duels, haven't for a long time.
How do you find open world pvp on pts?
The above, as well as math (you can find it in the NB thread) & common sense.
Common sense + math you did in favor of your point obviously outweight me testing it in a semi controlled infight environment on a 1:1 comparable build.
I´m gonna stick to what i learned rather than common sense in that case.<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Ankael07✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Murador178 wrote: »
Kill 20 Enemy Sorcerer Discussions : 15/20Edited by Ankael07 on April 30, 2018 3:18PMIf you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.11 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Who's talking about PTS?
You called my build niche.
Is it niche in duels? Sure, that I can admit (if you're talking about the bow build, my mDK works alright in duels)
Is it niche in general? In your opinion maybe.The above, as well as math (you can find it in the NB thread) & common sense.
Common sense + math you did in favor of your point obviously outweight me testing it in a semi controlled infight environment on a 1:1 comparable build.
I´m gonna stick to what i learned rather than common sense in that case.
Cool, now I'm spreading "fake math".
Look, whatever - you can think whatever you want & I'll keep the facts for people who can appreciate them.Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2018 3:19PM0 -
SirMewser✭✭✭✭✭grannas211 wrote: »1. Non sorcs in a sorc threading [snip] about OPness. Check
2. Is said person a nightblade? Check
3. Do they and derail the entire conversation in an attempt to push their agenda against a class they dont play? Check
Just another Sorc thread. Nothing to see here.- Of a single ability, against certain builds (i.e. builds that aren't 30k+ health megatanks). I'd love to even see it buffed against builds that sorcs could use help against. But sure, keep on antagonizing me.
- Actually I have 10 characters, each with atleast 15 days /played time. I have multiple PvP videos/builds on my channel of other classes than Nightblade.
- As a matter of fact I'm looking forward to trying out Bow Stam Sorc next patch, as it could finally be viable (unless the current Rune Cage goes Live that is).
That's third strike and you're out.
Why not just copy and paste inconsequential comments, it is the same thing you are doing now, it will have the same insignificant impact but takes less time.
It's 2018 now, adapt because it's not working.
[Edit]: It's page 21, can we stop the siphoning nonsense and start talking about sorcs in the Sorc feedback thread? I have a few people waiting to come back to discussion...Edited by ZOS_KatP on May 6, 2018 3:52PM3