Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and I never died to Overload (it has always been possible for me to break free+dodge roll anything after a Frag stun) until the Crystal Blast setup surfaced (after which I've died 2-3 times to the combo).

It's much harder to dodge, especially when you're already in combat & got all the other combat sounds around you. Alone out in the field... haven't actually had anyone even try to overload gank me so can't really comment.

Are you trolling me or do you legit not understand what i´m talking about?

The difference was literally the travelarc of the two projectiles. Ofc it was possible to dodge anything after fragstun if you used an instant procced frag.
However if you hardcasted it - which was the correct way to do it. It was more potent than the current crystalblast gank because when hearing the audiocue you had less reaction time.
It was not possible to dodge an overload lightattack fired after hardcasting crystal fragment. On maxrange the hit delay of the two abilities was under 0.3s.
With blast currently the abilities will hit at the same time or overload slightly prior to blast (making potential 2nd lightattacks with overload more likely to hit - but surviving means dodging/blocking the first attack anyway).

Sigh...

-/\_=Trajectory/Time
>Frag/Blast impact
*Overload LA impact

Frags:
- - - - >- - -*---*
Blast:
. _ _ _ _
/ . . . . .\>*---*


Can't believe I just had to draw that. You know, you could just look at any of the videos explaining why Frag with that combo is garbage. It's been tested by people who actually play these types of builds.


But to put it simply:
long travel time=good, short travel time=bad

It's the same as it has always been. Even snipe was better back when it had 3s cast time, but much longer travel time (which allowed you to queue Heavy Attack+PI to land at the same time, not just LA+PI or LA+Bombard)

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

It isn't bare minimum, I run highly optimized CPs (even tilted towards Elemental Defender, as magicka burst is more dangerous) & 7 impen - not some 7 divines 100% gank build with no health stamina food & zero sustain.

I wasn’t referencing your builds stats. I was saying you seem to want ZoS to cater to your specific play style, even if only by the smallest amount.

I think ZOS should cater to all playstyles, not just meta tank builds & shield stackers.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Everybody doesn't have to build tankier.

That is 100% the issue I have with all this.

If I want a high dmg, quick paced playstyle but don't want to build a tank with trash dmg that gets stuck in endless fights and stopped by healbots in 1vX, my only option is to play a sorc or another magicka build that can stack magicka for high damage and high defenses.

So if ZOS doesn't want to roll back the Rune Cage changes or change how it works (multiple good ideas have been floated around), then they should nerf those shields so that I can one shot those sorcs at will when I build high dmg, just like they can do to me.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but even that would be preferable to the current PTS balance where the unavoidable one shots flow only one way.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Again, I agree with your main point,I just think your arguement is flawed and misleading. There is already so much misinformation about sorcs on these forums, don't need more. Cage doesn't need the damage, but it isn't necessarily uncounterable unless you get caught out in the same line that your bow/bow Asylum+snipe build isn't uncounterable unless you get caught out. If you are aware, you can prepare. If not, yes it's an instagib but so is your bow/bow build.

That's the problem, you can prepare vs things like stealth burst by keeping your shields up - but the non-tank medium armor build cannot prepare by dodge rolling and there's no stamina shields to give you artificial health (trust me, I'd replace Vigor in a heartbeat). Even the new Psijic passive shield activated by blocking is useless since it's only up during block (which Rune Cage disables).

Also, Asylum Snipe is something you get to attempt once & then you bail if the target is too tanky to kill (or you risk it with Ballista & most likely die if that fails as well), not something you get to do every 7 seconds.

It is also 20m range, not 28m and requires you to build for high dmg low sustain & equip a special bow, which Rune Cage does not.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Anyways, sorc damage is really fine as is, it's the class utility that needs addressing. Still don't think Frag cc is the way to go unless both morphs get the proc treatment and 1 gets 20% damage increase and the other the CC + 10%. Probably best way to go about it.

Something like Frag ignoring armor mitigation could be interesting & would certainly make sorc better vs tank builds without really affecting non-tank builds (CPs+light armor is already almost 100% penetration).

On a mobile so this is going to be a blurb. Tankier/=tank. You will still have a high damage build relative to the meta, except now you have to run a health glyph or two. The biggest loss for you here is that unique weapons like asylum now are going to pale in conparison to 2-5-5 setups that asylum bow builds will not benefit from.

That runs counterintuitive to what the idea behind a high dmg build is. The idea behind a high dmg build is that you end fights before they become boring sustain battles, which they will become when you can't burst people down after you had to stack 30k health (not just one or two glyphs, you need 30k+ next patch) to survive as a medium armor build and were left with 20k stam pool as a result & lost 4-5k burst damage.

And yes, I've considered the implications of bows, 2H & staves counting as two set pieces. Asylum Bow is still by far BiS so things remain the same in that regard.

IAVITNI wrote: »

And you literally just described your bow build as a gank build. Gank builds are meant to be squishy. And balance should not be discussed around gank builds unless it’s to nerf overperforming setups like the old viper veli crit proc fiasco. Nor should a gank builds burst threat uptime be similar to a normal build.

First, "gank build" carries some very negative connotations - it paints the picture of a build that kills someone fighting outnumbered (referring to the term's origin, "gang kill") or to a build that builds all in damage to kill one person and then runs away.

My build does neither of that (atleast in my hands), it's simply built towards lots of stealthing, restealthing, high bursts from stealth & good damage avoidance.

You might've seen these types of characters in other games (e.g. rogue in WoW, Assassin in BnS, Thief in GW2 etc etc).

It is not and never has been about one shotting unprepared players for me, it is about utilizing stealth in the best way the game allows. Dipping in & out of the shadows dropping huge bursts of damage and then disappearing before opponents can touch me and then doing the same to the next person in that enemy group (not running away), that has always been the playstyle that interests me the most in MMOs.

There's no stunlocking in ESO, there's no stealth ability bars & special stealth mechanics like WoW/BnS/GW2 etc etc, but you can still simulate a satisfactory, similar playstyle with cloaking/restealthing & high burst damage.


Second, I have absolutely no problems being squishy if I can avoid damage by making no mistakes. In fact, I really like that high risk high reward.

What I don't like is high risk zero reward when undodgeable/unblockable/unsurvivable 28m unkitable CCs rear their head because there's no amount of outplaying your opponent that prevents those from ending any fun you might've been having in game.


Third, those builds don't have similar threat uptime. You get one shot & then you have to work hard just to survive (let alone get a second shot, which does happen sometimes) if that failed. That's balanced.

IAVITNI wrote: »

And I outlined how you can avoid a Rune Cage cc burst. I know, I’ve done it. My Nightblade has gankblade stats as a bosmer and try I play it like it’s an imperial in heavy with minimal reliance on cloak (again I just haven’t updated gear). No, it’s not ideal or easy but neither is walking everywhere in cyrodil recasting shields. And the goal isn’t to survive the burst but avoid it all together. What is a medium Armor build supposed to do against your bow build? Roll dodge throughout all cyrodil?

Ah, if you outlined how to avoid an undodgeable unblockable 28m ranged ability I must've missed it.

And yes, isn't that what rollerblades do? Spam dodge roll 24/7 around some tree or a tower with 4k regen? Sorry, I know I sound bitter. I have little sympathy for the playstyle.

Rollerblades on Live are currently the worst counters to bow builds as every single ability you have can be dodged.

This is a little better on PTS (thanks to undodgeable Bombard), but on Live it's pretty brutal. Luckily you can atleast wait in stealth & time your combo perfectly to take them out, but in a duel scenario for instance the chances of the bow build winning are somewhere around zero.


Worst thing that exists on Live currently (next patch will be Rune Cage, i.e. pretty much all sorcerers) are rollerblades with infinite regen, piercing mark, speed pots & gap closer slotted.

They can kill a bow build just by spamming ambush on you (you try to sprint away with speed pots, they'll catch you - you try to cloak, you're marked - you try to kill them, your snipe is dodged & worst of all you'll run out of stamina in a few minutes and they'll be at 100%).

Luckily there aren't many with that exact combination of skills & pots, so there's usually atleast one way to escape/avoid dying.


I do recognize how the rollerblade builds add to build diversity, but given how hard they counter bow builds currently I'd say it's fair bow build have a chance of killing them atleast when they stop dodge rolling.

As a sidenote: most rollerblade builds will also suffer from the Rune Cage change, as I'm not seeing any of them currently run more than 23-24k health (which is ironically why they can be killed with Asylum Snipe combo, 25k+ & you live on Live) - probably because they can't really sacrifice any damage if they want to be able to still burst tank builds with Incap->Relentless and have a chance at killing them.

IAVITNI wrote: »

If that’s the play style you want to play then it’s perfectly fine. I do thinking ganking is beneficial to the overall health of cyrodil. But viability of a gank build shouldn’t be a factor when considering class balance. It just so happens that in this case that what benefits your play style is the healthier change, but not entirely for the reasons you stated.

Ugh, negative connotations... but I do get your point.

I just don't really agree with it, probably because I see stealth oriented builds as much more than just some cowardly builds that prey on outnumbered & unaware targets creating toxicity.

I do think the stealth playstyle needs to be a factor when considering class balance, even if it also affects the toxic aspects (i.e. what I consider "ganking") of it.

I'd love for them to detach those two concepts though, give stealth some other meaningful way to exist & thrive in Cyrodiil without the one shots. Many other MMORPGs have done this successfully with unique debuffs/buffs you can gain/inflict in stealth etc.

IAVITNI wrote: »

It’s an issue due to the fact that most people on these forums aren’t objective nor well informed. IMO you are both an objective and well informed individual, albeit with a slight bias for your preferred play style ( as are most). Then someone comes in that lacks objectivity and knowledge you possess, sees your post and thinks that all night blades are weak and then start nerf sorc threads that catch fire like they were already on fire before they were even made.

Well, thank you. It's good (for once) to have a conversation on internet where I'm not immediately dismissed, antagonized & labeled noob or whatever for having a contrary opinion. It's a shame this is so rare these days.

I do admit I have a bias towards stealth builds - have had ever since I fell in love with my undead rogue stunlocking people to death outside Blackrock Spire in vanilla WoW somewhere around... 2005 I think it was.

I do try to keep that in mind when discussing things & by no means do I think nightblades are too weak or that sorcs are too strong, after all there's a reason why stamblades are the most popular thing in Cyrodiil.

I think there are many ways where sorcs could use help (better burst vs tank builds in particular), I just don't feel they needed any help vs medium armor dodge roll builds (especially the less tanky ones).

Other sorc buffs in this patch I'm 100% on board with; Bound Aegis/Armaments no longer requiring to be double barred, 15% cost reduction on ability after blocking an attack, cost reduction on mines etc... all good changes & I hope they buff some of the less popular sorc skills.


But this Rune Cage... just no. If sorcs need more burst to deal with tank builds (as someone who often watches duels on EU, I can see why), then ZOS should add that burst to skills that don't just make sorcs one shot builds that aren't tanks.

Skills like Boundless Storm for example, or they could make Frags ignore mitigation - any number of things.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@DDuke
If you look at the corresponding thread to Malcolm's video, you'll see his first response stating that average burst needs four seconds to set up. Add two to get your shields up.
Would be nice if you watched the videos you link yourself.
And on a personal note, it's utterly ridiculous that you're trying to lecture me or even Derra. Just. Stop!

Now, back to topic.

Ah, so now we're down to four seconds from six. Progress.

Soon you'll realize that you don't actually need that dreaded "preparation" at all vs most people in Cyrodiil (regardless of which class you can play) as most tend to just... die.

Be it Curses, random Frags/Flame Reaches on Sorc, Poison Injection on stam builds etc, most people in Cyrodiil don't run min-max'd (or even full CP) builds & most don't have the experience required to really survive out there.

Hell, I've even had people kill themselves on my Volatile Armor (and some help from Flames of Oblivion) without me even focusing them at all on my mDK.


As for bursting down players who actually know what they're doing... I don't think "oh, but it requires 4 seconds!" is really an argument you (or anyone) should be making.

Stuck behind some 30k health tank build that just keeps permablocking/instahealing to full after you burst him? Problems getting past someone spamming dmg shields? Now those are issues I can understand & get behind.

4 seconds to kill someone isn't an issue, 40 minutes is.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I'd say that to fully know how your class interacts with other classes you need to play (or at the very least understand) those other classes as well. And not just the popular meta builds, but also the less popular ones that play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.

Have you played a nonmeta sorc except for overloading people to death from sneak? (because being able to press 3 buttons from sneak does not give insight on limits on nonmeta builds - imo)

What constitutes a nonmeta sorc in your eyes?

Sure, I had a heavy attack build in PvP back when Infallible was op and buffed every tick of lightning heavy attack. I believe that was slightly off meta back then in PvP, though there were other people playing it, which is why I never made a build video.

I think the Caluurion+Necro+Zaan build I got on PTS is somewhat off meta, but is also not an original creation sadly.

Truth is, it's hard to make a unique build on a class with so many toggles.


I'd love to try some high dmg heavy armor melee build with zero dmg shields some day, but currently the only skill supplementing that sort of playstyle is Boundless Storm.

A non-meta sorc is one that doesn't play the exact same way as every other sorc out there, spam shields curse cc burst repeat.


Sort of how my bowblade plays vastly differently to the meta rollerblade, or how my destro/resto mDK plays differently to S&B tank DKs etc

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Boy, I don't even...
I listed in THE VERY FIRST POST ABOUT THIS DISCUSSION:
"Shield, shield, Curse, Fury, Reach, Frag".
No wonder people are starting to think you're trolling.

Fine, I'll go over another time, whatever.
Sorc burst time is limited by two aspects. Shields and Curse. You HAVE to have your shields up BEFORE you attempt to burst, because the burst itself requires four seconds preparation, thanks to Curse NOT being able to held like Merciless.
This means that everytime you have to defend with a shield, break CC or get your Reach dodged, it nullifies six seconds in total.
Only noticeable exception is a roll dodge after a skill instead of shielding, but that is of limited availability...

You know what? I can't be bothered wasting any more if my time. Just watch the Malcolm video. He plays meta, he plays like me (just better), and he does meta right - there's a certain "skeleton" that defines metas, like Shacklebreaker, Amberplasm, Master Reach and shieldstack. He knows, acknowledges, uses that - and THEN personalizes it - well-fitted over impen.
THAT'S how you sprinkle individuality over builds, THAT'S what I'm talking about. Not rush in here with ridiculous niche builds andcdemand them to be brought up to meta and considered in balancing discussions, while also being decidedly rude and dusrespectful to the people that, you know, have just been bleeding their class since Big Bang.

Now, go. You have a video to watch. And if you already did, then DO IT AGAIN!

Wow, did you get so triggered (for whatever reason) you can't even spell correctly anymore?

I quite frankly don't care if a sorc has to spam dmg shields to survive in PvP. Guess what, I also have to spam dodge rolls (like any other medium armor build) and a tank build has to block & spam heals, but you don't hear me or anyone else b*tching about it.


If you change some numbers on a spreadsheet and still play the game in a similar fashion to everyone else, you're still playing a meta build (if not in your own eyes, then in the eyes of everyone who fights against you atleast). Nothing wrong with that of course, whatever floats your boat.

There are people though that don't enjoy being carbon copies of the person next to them and these people deserve to be treated as equals, not like some second class citizens.


Also I don't see what having played "your class" since year X has to do anything (besides the obvious bias it creates). For all I know (I don't, so please don't be offended) you could be god awful at this game & never learned anything over the years.

I'd say that to fully know how your class interacts with other classes you need to play (or at the very least understand) those other classes as well. And not just the popular meta builds, but also the less popular ones that play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.


Once you have all that down then you can begin to understand game balance.

That's just my take on things, sorry for any "dusrespect" you may perceive in my post.

I respect that you pretty much admit loving the playstyle of jumping out of stealth, deleting people quickly, and then escaping. Your class has been the anathema of just about everyone but other nightblades for a couple of patches now. You’re used to it, and maybe feeling just a little entitled.

Don’t deny it. It’s fun. I agree with you. I watch the videos and cheer along every time the YouTube hero kills someone before they can stand up.

However it’s not fun for the target. Or anyone playing against you. Basically unless you make a mistake (your own words) you never get caught and die. ZOS took every tool away that people used to deal with you. Undodgable power lash, undodgable birds, that huge snare on soul assault, the stun on crystal fragments. You’ve had your fun running Cyrodiil, now that’s over. The risk of running an instant delete build just went way up.

There have been 50,000 nerf nightblade threads for a reason. People are mad, but most of them can’t articulate why except ‘nerf NB now! Remove incap from the game!’

Putting SOME damage on cage is going to help us deal with stealth classes, because we get such a tiny window of burst before you’re completely gone - especially with the new shade changes. That cage tooltip probably shouldn’t be 10K, and in most cases it won’t be unless it’s a really niche dueling build with no sustain. The reason it needs damage is simple: sometimes when I don’t make any mistakes on my Sorc, I just might kill you. Right now at best I can hope to run you off.

‘Good players always adapt’ and it’s true. Survivability, sustain, and damage are sliders on EVERY build in the game. You can tune small bits of your build for more defense, impen, armor rating, and health, usually at the cost of damage or sustain. I think you might have to do that mate.

Please keep the reply in one piece, its easier to reply to on a phone.

I'm sorry, but if at the moment you have problems vs NBs as a Sorcerer (the class with by far the strongest counters vs dodge roll/cloak), the problem lies elsewhere.

You could be a bit less antagonistic with your posts, I actually agree with many of the concerns people have with Nightblade. I don't think people should be able to sustain infinite dodge rolling/cloaking for instance, and I think Incap+Relentless is a bit too easy to pull off & it could be better if Incap had no stun (except vs targets at higher health total, like how it used to work before).

Nightblades aren't one entity however. The "instant delete" builds aren't the ones dodge rolling/cloaking around infinitely (unless you count Incap Relentless as "instant delete", despite it requiring setup & target with avg or below skill level) and viceversa.

What if I told you that the vast majority of NB builds out there are rollerblades, and that very, very few people actually play a high dmg build?

Even less play them efficiently and this is for one reason: these builds are hard to play and leave no room for mistakes.

So do these builds deserve to get blown up despite making no mistakes by undodgeable unblockable unsurvivable 28m abilities? No, they don't.

Should rollerblades have better counters for them? Probably, though not on the level of the old Power Lashes (no medium stamblade in the entire game lived past the 1st/2nd Fossilize for months vs my mDK, until ZOS finally saw sense & toned them down), and those were nothing compared to Rune Cage on PTS.

The solution should be making those builds harder to play by making the burst combo require an outside CC element (not inbuilt one with Incap) & infinite dodge rolling needs to be fixed.

As to the whole "adapt, play a tank build" argument, how about you do the same: drop 10k magicka, put it into health and see how that works out? Yeah, didn't think so...

Believe it or not, some people find it boring to play tank builds with zero dmg that spend 30 minutes trying to kill some cp300 s&b heal tanks, or trashy sorc sustain builds that can't burst squishy medium armor builds on Live.

I’m not trying to antagonize you. Honestly.

But the fact is ZOS isn’t going to fix anything that you and I agree are wrong on nightblade. We can agree on it all day long: Dodge roll costs. Bow damage too high. Incap combos. Instant death builds. Permanent stealth. Incap giving SIX seconds of 20% more damage. Killing a nightblade, a good night lade isn’t an L2P issue if the NB is any good at all.

ZOS honestly didn’t change any of that this patch. So I’m honestly just not that upset about getting damage on cage. Why is my one class issue worse than ALL of yours combined?

You see why people get defensive and bent out of shape about stealth NB’s crying for nerfs to other classes?