PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Warden Balance

MLGProPlayer · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think ZOS wants the bear to be a companion, a trusted friend so to speak, so the idea of summoning it ala Storm Atro isn't going to happen.

That being said, I would not see the harm in allowing Warden to single bar the Bear ulti. This isn't overpowered or anything. If fact, it's necessary so the Warden isn't under-powered in areas where AoE ultimate is needed. Just as long as the bear ulit is on a single bar, let it remain an active pet. It is "eternal", yes?

This is a win - win - win - win for everyone. Wardens get to be more versatile. Wardens get to use appropriate ultimates in different situations. Wardens get to keep their trusted companions. The only possible objection is breaking the precedent that a permanent pet has to be double barred: which is just a precedent and should not be followed as canon or anything. It would *not* break my immersion or anything if the Warden's trusted friend didn't *poof* disappeared when changing weapons, you know.

The bear also isn't optional on the warden. It contributes 15-20% of the class' overall damage. It's not something we can swap out for another skill (unlike sorcs, who are still viable without pets). The bear is mandatory if we want to be within range of the other classes' DPS numbers. Otherwise, DPS completely falls off a cliff (it's already the lowest in the game WITH the bear, let alone without it).

LeHarrt91 · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think ZOS wants the bear to be a companion, a trusted friend so to speak, so the idea of summoning it ala Storm Atro isn't going to happen.

That being said, I would not see the harm in allowing Warden to single bar the Bear ulti. This isn't overpowered or anything. If fact, it's necessary so the Warden isn't under-powered in areas where AoE ultimate is needed. Just as long as the bear ulit is on a single bar, let it remain an active pet. It is "eternal", yes?

This is a win - win - win - win for everyone. Wardens get to be more versatile. Wardens get to use appropriate ultimates in different situations. Wardens get to keep their trusted companions. The only possible objection is breaking the precedent that a permanent pet has to be double barred: which is just a precedent and should not be followed as canon or anything. It would *not* break my immersion or anything if the Warden's trusted friend didn't *poof* disappeared when changing weapons, you know.

That is a great option, as you still have to choose between using cheap single target ulti with an execute or expensive AoE when needed. (and you cant use both Bear Special Ability and Destro Ulti at the same time)

Remee · April 2018

I just don't see them allowing the bear to be summoned while not on the active bar. Maybe I'm wrong.

I want magica wardens to be on par with everyone else. I also want my stam warden to be better. Having the bear on one bar and dawnbreaker on another would help a lot.

Making Swarm have a stam morph would really help as well.

I also think speeding up animations on some buffs would help, or at least making netch or lotus last longer would help a lot. Especially if we are nerfing sub assault.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Yep totally agree, there are just so many situations in trials where a huge AoE ultimate is just needed.
What if the bear ultimate acted like Sorcs Storm Atro? summoned until killed/ for X amount of seconds (this may warrant a ulti cost increase) but single barred.

No, anything less then 100% uptime on the bear is bad. Not against single bear idea. The Warden only has 5 class Damage skills counting the Bear

LeHarrt91 · April 2018

Remee wrote: »

I just don't see them allowing the bear to be summoned while not on the active bar. Maybe I'm wrong.

I want magica wardens to be on par with everyone else. I also want my stam warden to be better. Having the bear on one bar and dawnbreaker on another would help a lot.

Making Swarm have a stam morph would really help as well.

I also think speeding up animations on some buffs would help, or at least making netch or lotus last longer would help a lot. Especially if we are nerfing sub assault.

True, but it is an ultimate ability, and no other class has to double slot their ultimate, maybe they can code it differently. Or make it a skill and not the ultimate.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ascan7 wrote: »

Why can't we make the bear instant cast?
RIght now Eternal Guardian isn't even a real morph, the "buff" provided is absolutely ***

This. All it does is interrupt your rotation. It's literally the most useless morph of any skill in the game.

Here is how I would change it:

- The bear instantly re-spawns when killed, forgoing any re-summon animation by the player.

OR

- The bear does not disappear when the player switches ability bars (this would allow for single bar slotting, while keeping with the "eternal" theme of the ability).

I like the bear but this is why I don't use it. I'm not going to double-slot an Ultimate that has the dubious distinction of getting me killed regularly in PvP. This is literally the worst designed element of the skill, and morphing it is a horrible plan. Devs should have not even released the Bear like this.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think ZOS wants the bear to be a companion, a trusted friend so to speak, so the idea of summoning it ala Storm Atro isn't going to happen.

That being said, I would not see the harm in allowing Warden to single bar the Bear ulti. This isn't overpowered or anything. If fact, it's necessary so the Warden isn't under-powered in areas where AoE ultimate is needed. Just as long as the bear ulit is on a single bar, let it remain an active pet. It is "eternal", yes?

This is a win - win - win - win for everyone. Wardens get to be more versatile. Wardens get to use appropriate ultimates in different situations. Wardens get to keep their trusted companions. The only possible objection is breaking the precedent that a permanent pet has to be double barred: which is just a precedent and should not be followed as canon or anything. It would *not* break my immersion or anything if the Warden's trusted friend didn't *poof* disappeared when changing weapons, you know.

The bear also isn't optional on the warden. It contributes 15-20% of the class' overall damage. It's not something we can swap out for another skill (unlike sorcs, who are still viable without pets). The bear is mandatory if we want to be within range of the other classes' DPS numbers. Otherwise, DPS completely falls off a cliff (it's already the lowest in the game WITH the bear, let alone without it).

In spirit I understand you but it should be stated that you're speaking about MagDen and not TankDen or HealerDen (who should use other ultimates). I'm probably stating the obvious but in the discussion about class balance I just want to make it clear that the Bear isn't everything.

Transairion · April 2018

The only possible objection is breaking the precedent that a permanent pet has to be double barred: which is just a precedent and should not be followed as canon or anything. It would *not* break my immersion or anything if the Warden's trusted friend didn't *poof* disappeared when changing weapons, you know.

While I agree I doubt they'd do it because it opens up a slippery slope:

... "why can't the other Bear morph be single-barred" people will ask.

... "why can't Sorc pets be single-barred?"

.... why can't Summon Shade be single barre- oh wait lol

I feel like the "Stam Warden Bear" might actually be overpowered compared to Eternal if it was also able to be single-barred...

Eternal Guardian: The grizzly respawns when killed.

Wild Guardian: Increases the damage and converts it into Physical Damage.

Assuming the Wild Guardian's damage is actually higher than Eternal Guardian, then doesn't whatever improvements that are made to Eternal Guardian need to remain exclusive to that morph? If not won't Wild Guardian always be a better morph regardless of magicka/stamina build?

Seraphayel · April 2018

So I am very curious if there will be some Magden buffs in today's PTS Update. I doubt it.

LeHarrt91 · April 2018

I’m anticipating there won’t be so that if there is I’m pleasantly surprised

SodanTok · April 2018

Again wasting all thread talking about the bear, when the bear is obviously the only thing that is right with this class. It is the ultimate that is supposed to give wardens the single target superiority when it comes to magicka DD. It is not the problem of bear in any way that when warden slots the normal ultimates (destro/meteor/whatever) like all other magicka builds can, the warden DPS goes from mediocre to bad. That speaks the issue IS EVERYWHERE ELSE.

casparian · April 2018

Transairion wrote: »

The only possible objection is breaking the precedent that a permanent pet has to be double barred: which is just a precedent and should not be followed as canon or anything. It would *not* break my immersion or anything if the Warden's trusted friend didn't *poof* disappeared when changing weapons, you know.

While I agree I doubt they'd do it because it opens up a slippery slope:

... "why can't the other Bear morph be single-barred" people will ask.

... "why can't Sorc pets be single-barred?"

.... why can't Summon Shade be single barre- oh wait lol

I feel like the "Stam Warden Bear" might actually be overpowered compared to Eternal if it was also able to be single-barred...

Eternal Guardian: The grizzly respawns when killed.

Wild Guardian: Increases the damage and converts it into Physical Damage.

Assuming the Wild Guardian's damage is actually higher than Eternal Guardian, then doesn't whatever improvements that are made to Eternal Guardian need to remain exclusive to that morph? If not won't Wild Guardian always be a better morph regardless of magicka/stamina build?

Wild Guardian will always be a niche ult because stamina has better options available. Stamwardens don't need the bear to get PVP kills or respectable PVE DPS, they already have access to multiple executes, and they have fewer tools to immobilize the target (a necessity for getting the bear to hit people in PVP).

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

Transairion wrote: »

The only possible objection is breaking the precedent that a permanent pet has to be double barred: which is just a precedent and should not be followed as canon or anything. It would *not* break my immersion or anything if the Warden's trusted friend didn't *poof* disappeared when changing weapons, you know.

While I agree I doubt they'd do it because it opens up a slippery slope:

... "why can't the other Bear morph be single-barred" people will ask.

... "why can't Sorc pets be single-barred?"

.... why can't Summon Shade be single barre- oh wait lol

I feel like the "Stam Warden Bear" might actually be overpowered compared to Eternal if it was also able to be single-barred...

Eternal Guardian: The grizzly respawns when killed.

Wild Guardian: Increases the damage and converts it into Physical Damage.

Assuming the Wild Guardian's damage is actually higher than Eternal Guardian, then doesn't whatever improvements that are made to Eternal Guardian need to remain exclusive to that morph? If not won't Wild Guardian always be a better morph regardless of magicka/stamina build?

It's not, because it's significantly had to stack Stam than mag. My Wild Guardian hits for 50k tops, my Eternal Guardian hits for 80k. Both those numbers are PVE set ups, self buffed and crit executes.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

Question... how much of a buff is the LA/HA changes? Since Wardens can stack max Magicka higher then any other class, this should be a very strong buff to both Warden and Sorc. Anyone actually tested the MagDen rotation?

seitekisaki · April 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Question... how much of a buff is the LA/HA changes? Since Wardens can stack max Magicka higher then any other class, this should be a very strong buff to both Warden and Sorc. Anyone actually tested the MagDen rotation?

Got hit by a 5k la in pvp. There was a streamer that got 30k dps with just la and merciless resolve. So they are pretty significant. Unless there is a nerf coming to them.

MinarasLaure · April 2018

Given the crazy numbers people can pull simply using La on rotations, I'm quite sue they're going to change that.
But still, it's not a warden buff, it's an "all classes" buff

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

MinarasLaure wrote: »

Given the crazy numbers people can pull simply using La on rotations, I'm quite sue they're going to change that.
But still, it's not a warden buff, it's an "all classes" buff

True, but a class that can stack resources better then others is getting a bigger buff. So it’s a bigger buff to Sorc and Warden then to other classes

From one of my Guilds Band pages, so it would seem from this that it is effecting Wardens more than other classes.

These are the top 6 mil self buffed parses on pts server aggregated from pts forum (to try to eliminate cheese parses as much as possible I've not included 3 mil parses);

StamDK - 44k
MagDK - 45.8k
MagBlade - 57.8k!!!
StamBlade - no value yet
MagSorc - 47k (no pet)
StamSorc - 50k
Magplar - 45k
Stamplar - no value yet
MagWarden - 47.7k!!!
StamDen - no value yet

To get a sense of why I'm not including 3 mil parses, a magblade hit 70.9k a few days ago on a cheese parse... no other class has hit higher than 50k self buffed even on 3 mil. A 6 mil parse gives a sense of how sustainable the build is.

Even if you add 8% extra damage to all other classes (to account for minor beserk), magblades are over performing at the moment. Stam Sorc and Mag Warden parses were very surprising. Remains to be seen what changes going forward as new pts patch will come out today so there will be more parses coming out soon I'm sure.

Anti_Virus · April 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Please screw off with the nerf shimmering replies. I don't need yet another valuable tanking tool ruined because you morons are bickering about who has the bigger epeen in cyrodiil.

Here we go again. PvP and PvE are not balanced separately. If you don't like it, I suggest you find a different game.

Shimmering is overperforming right now. If wings returned 50-75% of the spell cost based on reflected projectiles, then it would be overperforming too. Thankfully it doesn't.

Apples to oranges. Shimmering does not reflect projectiles, it only absorbs them. It also has a maximum damage limit on absorbed projectiles, while wings does not. Wings can be morphed to remove snares or deal 20% additional damage with reflected projectiles, making it extremely useful against certain bosses (mazzatun is a big one here). Shimmering only absorbs 3 projectiles max, wings can reflect up to 4. one is defensive, one is offensive. They should not be getting compared one to one with each other.

Shimmering is an overly expensive ability if nothing gets absorbed, so the warden is taking a risk every time he casts it. All the enemy has to do is avoid casting projectiles for a few seconds and the warden has just wasted 4k magicka. That's the pvp counter, and it's getting nerfed simply because pvpers dont want to play smart, they want to faceroll all *** day and win purely based on how powerful their class and gear is, and I'm sick of that crap coming to the forums and being the #1 thing that ZOS sees.

Shimmering + Morphs needs a cost increase or remove the mag return simple as that.

Anti_Virus · April 2018

Also can Cutting dive get the speed increase like screaming cliff racer?

MLGProPlayer · April 2018

SodanTok wrote: »

Again wasting all thread talking about the bear, when the bear is obviously the only thing that is right with this class. It is the ultimate that is supposed to give wardens the single target superiority when it comes to magicka DD.

Except it doesn't do that.

Magicka warden has the lowest single target DPS of any class. The bear is unreliable DPS due to low survivability, pathing issues, and an intrusive re-cast animation stemming from a useless morph.

It's a completely broken skill that needs a lot of attention.

If the bear was doing its job, magicka wardens would be dealing more damage than other magicka classes to compensate for the fact that their damage is single target. Instead, they deal less damage.

SodanTok · April 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Again wasting all thread talking about the bear, when the bear is obviously the only thing that is right with this class. It is the ultimate that is supposed to give wardens the single target superiority when it comes to magicka DD.

Except it doesn't do that.

Magicka warden has the lowest single target DPS of any class. The bear is unreliable DPS due to low survivability, pathing issues, and an intrusive re-cast animation stemming from a useless morph.

It's a completely broken skill that needs a lot of attention.

If the bear was doing its job, magicka wardens would be dealing more damage than other magicka classes to compensate for the fact that their damage is single target. Instead, they deal less damage.

That is just pure [snip]. Thats not how this stuff works. Bear is best single target ultimate in the game DPS wise. Which is balanced for by not being always ideal for situation (and then bugs and mechanics).

If warden DPS without bear ult was on par as other mag builds without ultimate, the bear would do exactly that - made warden DPS superior in single target in situation that allow for it. Speaks a lot that the issue is not related to it at all.

Every thread since Morrowind the same stupid talking points that just plague and waste any meaningful discussion:

No bear is not bad skill
No warden is not punished by being good in PVP
No bear wont ever be single barred.

Bonus point:

No Ice DPS will never be as good as others.

Hutch679 · April 2018

Lmao not a single change to wardens for 4.0.2. Yep mag warden pvp will be a huge uphill battle. I plan on running straight proc sets. Anything else will be impossible to get kills with on good players. No execute. No CC. Mediocre burst with limited amount of class damage skills... so sad.

Vaoh · April 2018

No changes in 4.0.2

Wasn’t it supposed to be the combat balancing PTS patch, whereas last week was mostly bug fixes? Idk.

Gotta hope that something changes in 4.0.3....

_Ahala_ · April 2018

Yeah but at this point I’m expecting more pvp nerfs which will zos will try to sell to us as overland pve buffs or some minor buffs that only really benefit stamden as a final insult to magden

Chufu · April 2018

The real problem with MagWarden is not that he doesn't do good Damage (he does if you can play him well, although he is still not the best in comparison), but the problem comes in raids like Asylum Sanctorium and maybe also Cloudrest, when you are not allowed to take a pet with you.

In Asylum Sanctorium for example: Pets get the Shock-rain as well as players, so they could even kill players.

So as soon as you are not allowed to play with your pet, the MagWarden is dead.

But also the skills could do a lot more damage... I mean compare the Ice-Ring of the Warden with the shock-field of the Sorcerer.... there is a lot of difference between these two dots.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

51k PTS parse I found

https://youtu.be/cs1YV7eK8Qk

_Ahala_ · April 2018

Yes eternal guardian should gain true immortality in pve and immunity to trial damage spreading mechanics if it’s to be viable... or they should replace the forced resuming morph (lol) with something that gives a synergy (execute damage on all class skills for 10s for warden and synergizer) or some aoe

Spurius_Lucilius · April 2018

Even Zos do not buff Mag Warden in the upcoming PTS patches before Summerset launch, I will still be faithful and keep playing Mag Warden In cyrodiil, but I really want to see huge buff or rework.

_Ahala_ · April 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

51k PTS parse I found

https://youtu.be/cs1YV7eK8Qk

Ok... I’ll admit, that is seriously impressive... now we just need a way to keep that bear alive

Spurius_Lucilius · April 2018

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

51k PTS parse I found

https://youtu.be/cs1YV7eK8Qk

Ok... I’ll admit, that is seriously impressive... now we just need a way to keep that bear alive

And also remember that they nerf Light Attack damage this 4.0.2 patch