I've given up on this thread. Derailed once people started arguing. Magden is dead lol

I'm curious if those people who think the PTS version has potential has actually gone on the PTS and dueled those hardcore PvPers who are testing their gold robust Fury/Ravager jewelry layout.

I main a templar, but I can hold my own on a (Live) mag warden. The PTS version is terrible and I'd go as far to say putting back the stun isn't going to resolve the issues mag wardens have. I did OK vs ranged builds (only because of shimerring shield), but against any high damage melee stam spec it was just an exercise in frustration: throw your computer out the window or re-roll another class.

I did have a very long duel against a magicka DK and in that fight it the faults of the class became quite apparent.

• I came close to landing a kill several times through the fight, but no execute and no way to get one
• Warden is not a range spec, yet relies on destro reach (which would get reflected back at me) for stun. Awkward!
• Having a burst ultimate is *very* strong in PvP. My opponent had one, I did not.
• The DK had Fossilize. I have nothing. Whenever I had the momentum, I'd get auto-stunned with nothing I could do about it and I'd spend the next 10 seconds of so scrambling, shielding, dodging, healing just not to die to the leap-power lash combo. Because of his ability to stun on demand and my inability to do so, I'd say the for about 70% of the fight, the mag DK controlled the initiative and I was forced to react, which means I pretty much got to get lucky to win.
• Playing a class with a lot of buffs is difficult because it's hard to maintain those buffs while the opponent has the initiative 70% of the time. Wardens don't really have a way of resetting the fight to reapply those buffs.
• I did not feel my attacks (fetcher flies, birds, shalks) were doing anything to inconvenience my opponent or at least make him react (back to the 70% initiative thing). As much as I complain about templars, my damage skills do force my opponents to at least think. Eclipse: they better CC break it. Backlash, their going to take burst in 6 seconds. Jesus Beam, they better bash me. Sweeps, better move or you're getting snared and I'm getting healed. As long as you have health, you can ignore Warden attacks.
• Because my offensive ultimates are meh and I was often scrambling for my life, too many Tree defensive ultimates: which just resorts into what frustrates people about PvP: a weaker spec just prolonging the fight.

I want to like magicka wardens, but I'm not banging my head against the wall going out there on a gimped spec in a competitive environment. It's decent at not dying, but terrible at getting kills Vs. people who know what they are doing. I want to see a dev take their magicka Warden against those hardcore PvPers and after an hour, please let us know the vision and future for MAgicka Warden.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm curious if those people who think the PTS version has potential has actually gone on the PTS and dueled those hardcore PvPers who are testing their gold robust Fury/Ravager jewelry layout.

I main a templar, but I can hold my own on a (Live) mag warden. The PTS version is terrible and I'd go as far to say putting back the stun isn't going to resolve the issues mag wardens have. I did OK vs ranged builds (only because of shimerring shield), but against any high damage melee stam spec it was just an exercise in frustration: throw your computer out the window or re-roll another class.

I did have a very long duel against a magicka DK and in that fight it the faults of the class became quite apparent.

• I came close to landing a kill several times through the fight, but no execute and no way to get one
• Warden is not a range spec, yet relies on destro reach (which would get reflected back at me) for stun. Awkward!
• Having a burst ultimate is *very* strong in PvP. My opponent had one, I did not.
• The DK had Fossilize. I have nothing. Whenever I had the momentum, I'd get auto-stunned with nothing I could do about it and I'd spend the next 10 seconds of so scrambling, shielding, dodging, healing just not to die to the leap-power lash combo. Because of his ability to stun on demand and my inability to do so, I'd say the for about 70% of the fight, the mag DK controlled the initiative and I was forced to react, which means I pretty much got to get lucky to win.
• Playing a class with a lot of buffs is difficult because it's hard to maintain those buffs while the opponent has the initiative 70% of the time. Wardens don't really have a way of resetting the fight to reapply those buffs.
• I did not feel my attacks (fetcher flies, birds, shalks) were doing anything to inconvenience my opponent or at least make him react (back to the 70% initiative thing). As much as I complain about templars, my damage skills do force my opponents to at least think. Eclipse: they better CC break it. Backlash, their going to take burst in 6 seconds. Jesus Beam, they better bash me. Sweeps, better move or you're getting snared and I'm getting healed. As long as you have health, you can ignore Warden attacks.
• Because my offensive ultimates are meh and I was often scrambling for my life, too many Tree defensive ultimates: which just resorts into what frustrates people about PvP: a weaker spec just prolonging the fight.

I want to like magicka wardens, but I'm not banging my head against the wall going out there on a gimped spec in a competitive environment. It's decent at not dying, but terrible at getting kills Vs. people who know what they are doing. I want to see a dev take their magicka Warden against those hardcore PvPers and after an hour, please let us know the vision and future for MAgicka Warden.

I dueled on Magicka Warden and play it live. It does struggle against competent people. Though i don't have an idea on how to help that without a lot of number crunching. Which other people are so simply put better at doing because it isn't just as simple as buff w/e easy fix.

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm curious if those people who think the PTS version has potential has actually gone on the PTS and dueled those hardcore PvPers who are testing their gold robust Fury/Ravager jewelry layout.

I main a templar, but I can hold my own on a (Live) mag warden. The PTS version is terrible and I'd go as far to say putting back the stun isn't going to resolve the issues mag wardens have. I did OK vs ranged builds (only because of shimerring shield), but against any high damage melee stam spec it was just an exercise in frustration: throw your computer out the window or re-roll another class.

I did have a very long duel against a magicka DK and in that fight it the faults of the class became quite apparent.

• I came close to landing a kill several times through the fight, but no execute and no way to get one
• Warden is not a range spec, yet relies on destro reach (which would get reflected back at me) for stun. Awkward!
• Having a burst ultimate is *very* strong in PvP. My opponent had one, I did not.
• The DK had Fossilize. I have nothing. Whenever I had the momentum, I'd get auto-stunned with nothing I could do about it and I'd spend the next 10 seconds of so scrambling, shielding, dodging, healing just not to die to the leap-power lash combo. Because of his ability to stun on demand and my inability to do so, I'd say the for about 70% of the fight, the mag DK controlled the initiative and I was forced to react, which means I pretty much got to get lucky to win.
• Playing a class with a lot of buffs is difficult because it's hard to maintain those buffs while the opponent has the initiative 70% of the time. Wardens don't really have a way of resetting the fight to reapply those buffs.
• I did not feel my attacks (fetcher flies, birds, shalks) were doing anything to inconvenience my opponent or at least make him react (back to the 70% initiative thing). As much as I complain about templars, my damage skills do force my opponents to at least think. Eclipse: they better CC break it. Backlash, their going to take burst in 6 seconds. Jesus Beam, they better bash me. Sweeps, better move or you're getting snared and I'm getting healed. As long as you have health, you can ignore Warden attacks.
• Because my offensive ultimates are meh and I was often scrambling for my life, too many Tree defensive ultimates: which just resorts into what frustrates people about PvP: a weaker spec just prolonging the fight.

I want to like magicka wardens, but I'm not banging my head against the wall going out there on a gimped spec in a competitive environment. It's decent at not dying, but terrible at getting kills Vs. people who know what they are doing. I want to see a dev take their magicka Warden against those hardcore PvPers and after an hour, please let us know the vision and future for MAgicka Warden.

Just a question, was Permafrost of any use as a CC? I assume not since its a delayed CC.

Have you tried one of the Time Stop morphs? Would they take space in a already offensive-lacking spec?

Nope. I don;t have the time to grind the psijic questline and then the skills. Sorry ZOS, I have to pay the bills.

Besides, I don't really care how good the psijic skills are because they shouldn't be seen as what can save a terrible PvP spec, especially when they are available to everyone who has purchased the Chapter.

seitekisaki wrote: »

Lets talk about interesting potential changes again

Ya know what would be cool! If Winter's Revenge Increased either all frost damage by a 7-10 percentage or all frost and magicka damage by 7-10 percent while its active and currently damaging.

What else would be cool. if arctic blast dropped the health percent heal and gained damage increase and better scaling on its frost damage.

For PVP
Let Time Stop either be more useful or give the CC back to Deep Fissure.

So you want to kill arctic blast for tank wardens, and make winter's revenge into a copy of engulfing flames? Those arent interesting changes.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Please screw off with the nerf shimmering replies. I don't need yet another valuable tanking tool ruined because you morons are bickering about who has the bigger epeen in cyrodiil.

Here we go again. PvP and PvE are not balanced separately. If you don't like it, I suggest you find a different game.

Shimmering is overperforming right now. If wings returned 50-75% of the spell cost based on reflected projectiles, then it would be overperforming too. Thankfully it doesn't.

Apples to oranges. Shimmering does not reflect projectiles, it only absorbs them. It also has a maximum damage limit on absorbed projectiles, while wings does not. Wings can be morphed to remove snares or deal 20% additional damage with reflected projectiles, making it extremely useful against certain bosses (mazzatun is a big one here). Shimmering only absorbs 3 projectiles max, wings can reflect up to 4. one is defensive, one is offensive. They should not be getting compared one to one with each other.

Shimmering is an overly expensive ability if nothing gets absorbed, so the warden is taking a risk every time he casts it. All the enemy has to do is avoid casting projectiles for a few seconds and the warden has just wasted 4k magicka. That's the pvp counter, and it's getting nerfed simply because pvpers dont want to play smart, they want to faceroll all *** day and win purely based on how powerful their class and gear is, and I'm sick of that crap coming to the forums and being the #1 thing that ZOS sees.

The counter to shimmering as a ranged build is to turtle for 6 seconds and wait for it to go away? Doesn't work in PvP. That's why you can cc break the templar skill eclipse.

Edit: the offensive portion of wings is a bonus. It's arguably weaker than major heroism, especially for a pve tank such as yourself.

seitekisaki wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

seitekisaki wrote: »

Lets talk about interesting potential changes again

Ya know what would be cool! If Winter's Revenge Increased either all frost damage by a 7-10 percentage or all frost and magicka damage by 7-10 percent while its active and currently damaging.

What else would be cool. if arctic blast dropped the health percent heal and gained damage increase and better scaling on its frost damage.

For PVP
Let Time Stop either be more useful or give the CC back to Deep Fissure.

So you want to kill arctic blast for tank wardens, and make winter's revenge into a copy of engulfing flames? Those arent interesting changes.

My idea is that we need a way to buff frost damage. Also arctic wind isn't even much damage why won't tank wardens take the other morph? Is it for the chilled status? Enlighten me I like to learn.

My idea works on the basis that there will be no grand rework coming to warden. There will be just a few tweaks. The ideas I typed are in the scope of reason, or at least easy enough.

What are your ideas?

The other morph only heals one ally within 5 meters for 10% of your max health. In most cases, healing one melee DPS for 4-5k is not worthwhile.

However, arctic blast gives you a relatively high chance to chill all nearby enemies every 2 seconds. Chilled enemies deal less damage, are slowed, and are rooted by blockade of frost. You still get the same self healing out of both morphs, which is why arctic blast is a better choice especially for tanks. We're not there to heal the group, we're there to hinder enemies, debuff them, and keep ourselves alive.

But yes let’s not screw over Tankdens in the pursuit of improving Magdens

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm curious if those people who think the PTS version has potential has actually gone on the PTS and dueled those hardcore PvPers who are testing their gold robust Fury/Ravager jewelry layout.

I main a templar, but I can hold my own on a (Live) mag warden. The PTS version is terrible and I'd go as far to say putting back the stun isn't going to resolve the issues mag wardens have. I did OK vs ranged builds (only because of shimerring shield), but against any high damage melee stam spec it was just an exercise in frustration: throw your computer out the window or re-roll another class.

I did have a very long duel against a magicka DK and in that fight it the faults of the class became quite apparent.

• I came close to landing a kill several times through the fight, but no execute and no way to get one
• Warden is not a range spec, yet relies on destro reach (which would get reflected back at me) for stun. Awkward!
• Having a burst ultimate is *very* strong in PvP. My opponent had one, I did not.
• The DK had Fossilize. I have nothing. Whenever I had the momentum, I'd get auto-stunned with nothing I could do about it and I'd spend the next 10 seconds of so scrambling, shielding, dodging, healing just not to die to the leap-power lash combo. Because of his ability to stun on demand and my inability to do so, I'd say the for about 70% of the fight, the mag DK controlled the initiative and I was forced to react, which means I pretty much got to get lucky to win.
• Playing a class with a lot of buffs is difficult because it's hard to maintain those buffs while the opponent has the initiative 70% of the time. Wardens don't really have a way of resetting the fight to reapply those buffs.
• I did not feel my attacks (fetcher flies, birds, shalks) were doing anything to inconvenience my opponent or at least make him react (back to the 70% initiative thing). As much as I complain about templars, my damage skills do force my opponents to at least think. Eclipse: they better CC break it. Backlash, their going to take burst in 6 seconds. Jesus Beam, they better bash me. Sweeps, better move or you're getting snared and I'm getting healed. As long as you have health, you can ignore Warden attacks.
• Because my offensive ultimates are meh and I was often scrambling for my life, too many Tree defensive ultimates: which just resorts into what frustrates people about PvP: a weaker spec just prolonging the fight.

I want to like magicka wardens, but I'm not banging my head against the wall going out there on a gimped spec in a competitive environment. It's decent at not dying, but terrible at getting kills Vs. people who know what they are doing. I want to see a dev take their magicka Warden against those hardcore PvPers and after an hour, please let us know the vision and future for MAgicka Warden.

Sadly the Warden actually has all those things you just listed as missing. It is just clunky to use, the Bear. The Bears Heavy Attack CC's and he his huge burst, and an execute. However if they are in execute range, the Bears regular Ulti would have finished them anyway. And unless they ignore the Bear, he barely last longer than a potato.

All this could be fixed if ZoS just gave the Bear the health/tankiness of a mini boss. He is a figging double bar Ulti after all.

This might be a weird question but... isn't Eternal Guardian actually a really bad morph in practice?

Warden Bear auto-respawns upon death but a dead Bear already has a summon cost of 0... and the "autosummon" just automatically forces you into the summoning channel anyway. The difference between manually doing it and the morph doing it is... pretty much nothing, right?

Can this "magicka morph" (doing mag damage vs the other morphs psychical damage) get a better... er, actually useful effect on it of some kind? Or at least make it so the "free resummon" doesn't force you through the summon animation anyway. If it stops what we're doing it feels more like a punishment than anything.

Transairion wrote: »

This might be a weird question but... isn't Eternal Guardian actually a really bad morph in practice?

Warden Bear auto-respawns upon death but a dead Bear already has a summon cost of 0... and the "autosummon" just automatically forces you into the summoning channel anyway. The difference between manually doing it and the morph doing it is... pretty much nothing, right?

Can this "magicka morph" (doing mag damage vs the other morphs psychical damage) get a better... er, actually useful effect on it of some kind? Or at least make it so the "free resummon" doesn't force you through the summon animation anyway. If it stops what we're doing it feels more like a punishment than anything.

Been saying this all along, I totally agree.

I hope tomorrow brings us something *fingers crossed* (thats not a nerf)

ascan7 wrote: »

Why can't we make the bear instant cast?
RIght now Eternal Guardian isn't even a real morph, the "buff" provided is absolutely ***

This. All it does is interrupt your rotation. It's literally the most useless morph of any skill in the game.

Here is how I would change it:

- The bear instantly re-spawns when killed, forgoing any re-summon animation by the player.

OR

- The bear does not disappear when the player switches ability bars (this would allow for single bar slotting, while keeping with the "eternal" theme of the ability).

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ascan7 wrote: »

Why can't we make the bear instant cast?
RIght now Eternal Guardian isn't even a real morph, the "buff" provided is absolutely ***

This. All it does is interrupt your rotation. It's literally the most useless morph of any skill in the game.

Here is how I would change it:

- The bear instantly re-spawns when killed, forgoing any re-summon animation by the player.

OR

- The bear does not disappear when the player switches ability bars (this would allow for single bar slotting, while keeping with the "eternal" theme of the ability).

Yeah i dont want to have to double bar my Ultimate skill. I understand that its a summoned pet but giving up a good AoE ultimate is hard. Whether Stam or Magicka I cant bear to double bar it

The double bar requirement is one of the reasons why wardens are so bad. They're the only magicka class that isn't able to use destro ult. This casues 2 problems:

1. Their AOE damage suffers significantly
2. They need to waste an ability slot on a random destro staff ability in order to have the Ancient Knowledge passive active on both bars (this is the destro passive that increases damage by 8% if you have a destro ability slotted)

Taken from the Who Are The Wardens Truly? Article.

"Wardens seem to draw from their natural environment to change and shape reality itself. In layman's terms, something I think my colleague Phrastus may appreciate, the Spinners appear to employ a kind of illusionary magic, whereas the Wardens' abilities are more akin to what might traditionally be called alteration or conjuration."

If im drawing from my environment, why am i summoning a Cliff Racer in Grahtwood or Alik'r. I feel that statement may only apply to Green Balance and conjuring plants.