Please Don't Blanket Nerf Jewel Infused

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

I know right now if you have an argonian with reduced potion cooldown jewel enchants and infused jewelery, you can have 100% uptime of the potion passive, making the geckos OP.

People have called for nerfs, justifiably so.

However, a blanket nerf of the infused trait is the wrong way to go.

Right now, infused jewels with weapon or spell damage enchants on the Pelinals set paves the way for hybrid builds to be viable.

Blanket nerf infused jewelery and you kill this chance for greater diversity in the game.

If you nerf, I suggest you nerf the enchant seperately and leave infused alone.

@jackdaniell made this build, so he can talk more about it and why the infused jewelery trait is NOT OP.

Apherius · April 2018

They just need to fix the current bug.

RoyJade · April 2018

The bug make it utterly broken. But without it, the theoretic result infused may yield is not broken at all. After all, you trade something else against this boosted enchant.

Lughlongarm · April 2018

reduced potion infused +Argonians+5-clever alchemist+5-shacklebreaker+1kyna+1Domihaus (5 heavy-1-1)

Is probably much better hybrid setup compared to any Pelinals build.

One of the many reason the whole infused potion interaction thing should be looked at.

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

Lughlongarm wrote: »

reduced potion infused +Argonians+5-clever alchemist+5-shacklebreaker+1kyna+1Domihaus (5 heavy-1-1)

Is probably much better hybrid setup compared to any Pelinals build.

One of the many reason the whole infused potion interaction thing should be looked at.

As long as that's the ONLY interaction they look at.

But ya, 100% uptime of Clever Alchemist would be completely broken.

Excluding that, Pelinals would make hybrids just barely viable in endgame if they keep the wpn/sp dmg interaction with infused as is.

Jeezye · April 2018

I think the only instance where infused can get OP will be the potion reduction. Damage wise, you gain 104 wep/spell damage on a damage glyph, which is perfectly on par with robust/ arcane.

I didn't do the math on blockcost reduction, which might turn out quite strong as well. Either way, you trade off lots of resources so I really don't want a blanket nerf.

Jeezye · April 2018

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Right now, infused jewels with weapon or spell damage enchants on the Pelinals set paves the way for hybrid builds to be viable.

@jackdaniell made this build, so he can talk more about it and why the infused jewelery trait is NOT OP.

And hell yeah I'm really looking forward to play my hybrid sorc again

Minalan · April 2018

I like change, but we need to make sure the damage and sustain given by the infused trait is BALANCED against the current traits (arcane, healthy, robust).

If infused is giving more bonus damage or regen than the value of the current traits, it needs to be fixed.

Infused should be a viable trait for some builds, but it shouldn’t be BIS for ALL builds.

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

I like change, but we need to make sure the damage and sustain given by the infused trait is BALANCED against the current traits (arcane, healthy, robust).

If infused is giving more bonus damage or regen than the value of the current traits, it needs to be fixed.

Infused should be a viable trait for some builds, but it shouldn’t be BIS for ALL builds.

From what I hear it's equal to robust and arcane, so no imbalance.

WrathOfInnos · April 2018

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

But ya, 100% uptime of Clever Alchemist would be completely broken

Not if you look at what is being given up: 3 jewelry traits and 3 jewelry enchants. 3 damage glyphs on infused jewelry adds 835 weapon or spell damage, exceeding the 653 from Clever Alchemist.

Lughlongarm · April 2018

Jeezye wrote: »

I think the only instance where infused can get OP will be the potion reduction. Damage wise, you gain 104 wep/spell damage on a damage glyph, which is perfectly on par with robust/ arcane.

I didn't do the math on blockcost reduction, which might turn out quite strong as well. Either way, you trade off lots of resources so I really don't want a blanket nerf.

I think the infused interaction with the bash enchant is also a bit over preforming.

ToRelax · April 2018

Pelinal's isn't going to make hybrids competitive. In fact, with the change to light/heavy attacks scaling, it's becoming less relevant this update.

Vaoh · April 2018

Infused is bugged.

I’d like Hybrid builds to work too, but if the fix ruins your hybrid build then so be it.

https://youtu.be/OvjW5OVblK0

Juhasow · April 2018

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

I know right now if you have an argonian with reduced potion cooldown jewel enchants and infused jewelery, you can have 100% uptime of the potion passive, making the geckos OP.

People have called for nerfs, justifiably so.

However, a blanket nerf of the infused trait is the wrong way to go.

Right now, infused jewels with weapon or spell damage enchants on the Pelinals set paves the way for hybrid builds to be viable.

Blanket nerf infused jewelery and you kill this chance for greater diversity in the game.

If you nerf, I suggest you nerf the enchant seperately and leave infused alone.

@jackdaniell made this build, so he can talk more about it and why the infused jewelery trait is NOT OP.

Fixing the current infused trait bug will have no impact on weapon or spell dmg enchantments. How the bug works is that for few enchantment types (for example skill cost reduce , potion cooldown reduce , potion duration increase , bash wep dmg increase , bash and block cost reduce ) it adds 60% from infused trait not only from jewelery piece they're putted into but also from other jewelery pieces if those also have infused trait . This is causing up to 180% increase of effectivenes instead 60% for single enchantment. Weapon and spell damage enchantment however are free from this bug which means they wont need a fix so nothing will change for them after fix.

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

But ya, 100% uptime of Clever Alchemist would be completely broken

Not if you look at what is being given up: 3 jewelry traits and 3 jewelry enchants. 3 damage glyphs on infused jewelry adds 835 weapon or spell damage, exceeding the 653 from Clever Alchemist.

And you also lose the arcane or robust from the jewelery, so 2400 mag or stam, so yea, you're right.

mr_wazzabi · April 2018

ToRelax wrote: »

Pelinal's isn't going to make hybrids competitive. In fact, with the change to light/heavy attacks scaling, it's becoming less relevant this update.

Does the scaling base more from resources than on live?

If you have 5k wp/sp and 20k mag/stam vs 3k sp and 40k mag, would the second guy have better light attacks?

ak_pvp · April 2018

Even when working as intended, it will be overpowered. It will reduce pots to 21s. Meaning you can run 2x pots.

Sub out current sustain set for CA. It will be 466 spell power effectively. Yes, you lose a bit of damage from jewlery. (3 damage glyphs on infused jewelry adds 835) however the effects you gain is massive.

If you use the same stat potions 2z current potions give 336 regen equivalent of whatever stat. With a pot every 21s, you get 722 of sustain.

If you use immo pots, you will have 50%+ uptime on immovable, 11s every 21s. You can run more buffs from the potions effects. I.e. health mag immovable, and stam, speed, immovable. That is 20% on all stats, major expedition, and 50% immovable uptime. Maybe things like lingering pots with others.

Then the geckos get even more regen based of their passives, and the NBs get more ulti.

Bashev · April 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Infused is bugged.

I’d like Hybrid builds to work too, but if the fix ruins your hybrid build then so be it.

https://youtu.be/OvjW5OVblK0

It reminds me so much to eso 1.0. Bash the enemy to his/her death.

templesus · April 2018

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Pelinal's isn't going to make hybrids competitive. In fact, with the change to light/heavy attacks scaling, it's becoming less relevant this update.

Does the scaling base more from resources than on live?

If you have 5k wp/sp and 20k mag/stam vs 3k sp and 40k mag, would the second guy have better light attacks?

The second would have better light attacks. In regards to this whole "making hybrids viable in endgame" it will be nothing more then a niche pvp build, no pve group will allow a hybrid into trials.

Jsmalls · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

I like change, but we need to make sure the damage and sustain given by the infused trait is BALANCED against the current traits (arcane, healthy, robust).

If infused is giving more bonus damage or regen than the value of the current traits, it needs to be fixed.

Infused should be a viable trait for some builds, but it shouldn’t be BIS for ALL builds.

@Minalan

Here are my concerns with the infused jewellery...

Magicka can be broken up into two rough categories:

Those that depend on burst heals (spell damage) and those that depend on damage shields (Max magicka).

Stamina usually depends strictly on HoT abilities or burst heal (rally) that depend on Weapon Damage, none of their healing strictly scales off Max stamina.

So with this patch in my opinion it would be senseless for Magicka characters and stamina characters that depend on Weapon/Spell to leave their jewellery as Arcane/Robust.

104 spell/weapon damage self buffed becomes what 125-135 depending on the class. Stamina will probably see the biggest buff from this as Max stamina doesn't stack as well as Max magicka. But to my knowledge 104 base spell/weapon damage is stronger than 870 base stats, but it's miniscule. I'd like to see the tooltip differences but I don't think that'll be able to be seen until the infused jewellery isn't bugged.

Doctordarkspawn · April 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Infused is bugged.

I’d like Hybrid builds to work too, but if the fix ruins your hybrid build then so be it.

https://youtu.be/OvjW5OVblK0

@Vaoh

He's not calling for it to be. Calm down.

The bug is that the scaling is looping about 9 times for each enchant. That just needs fixed.

That's it. That's all. People are afraid of wide, sweeping nerfs where none are needed.

Vaoh · April 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Infused is bugged.

I’d like Hybrid builds to work too, but if the fix ruins your hybrid build then so be it.

https://youtu.be/OvjW5OVblK0

Vaoh

He's not calling for it to be. Calm down.

The bug is that the scaling is looping about 9 times for each enchant. That just needs fixed.

That's it. That's all. People are afraid of wide, sweeping nerfs where none are needed.

@DoctorESO

I am calm.

ToRelax · April 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

I know right now if you have an argonian with reduced potion cooldown jewel enchants and infused jewelery, you can have 100% uptime of the potion passive, making the geckos OP.

People have called for nerfs, justifiably so.

However, a blanket nerf of the infused trait is the wrong way to go.

Right now, infused jewels with weapon or spell damage enchants on the Pelinals set paves the way for hybrid builds to be viable.

Blanket nerf infused jewelery and you kill this chance for greater diversity in the game.

If you nerf, I suggest you nerf the enchant seperately and leave infused alone.

jackdaniell made this build, so he can talk more about it and why the infused jewelery trait is NOT OP.

Fixing the current infused trait bug will have no impact on weapon or spell dmg enchantments. How the bug works is that for few enchantment types (for example skill cost reduce , potion cooldown reduce , potion duration increase , bash wep dmg increase , bash and block cost reduce ) it adds 60% from infused trait not only from jewelery piece they're putted into but also from other jewelery pieces if those also have infused trait . This is causing up to 180% increase of effectivenes instead 60% for single enchantment. Weapon and spell damage enchantment however are free from this bug which means they wont need a fix so nothing will change for them after fix.

Are you sure about dmg enchants not being affected? It seemed to work fine for me (well, bugged, that is).

Edit: Checked it out, you're right. I must have mixed them up with cost reduction up as I was thinking of 500ish dmg on them.

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Pelinal's isn't going to make hybrids competitive. In fact, with the change to light/heavy attacks scaling, it's becoming less relevant this update.

Does the scaling base more from resources than on live?

If you have 5k wp/sp and 20k mag/stam vs 3k sp and 40k mag, would the second guy have better light attacks?

Eh, I haven't tested out what the new scaling is exactly, but on live the 5k dmg build would have much stronger light attacks. Now it's more based on resources like you said, which is bad for hybrids obviously, and makes resource sets like Shacklebreaker a better choice compared to Pelinal's.

drake88131 · April 2018

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

I know right now if you have an argonian with reduced potion cooldown jewel enchants and infused jewelery, you can have 100% uptime of the potion passive, making the geckos OP.

People have called for nerfs, justifiably so.

However, a blanket nerf of the infused trait is the wrong way to go.

Right now, infused jewels with weapon or spell damage enchants on the Pelinals set paves the way for hybrid builds to be viable.

Blanket nerf infused jewelery and you kill this chance for greater diversity in the game.

If you nerf, I suggest you nerf the enchant seperately and leave infused alone.

@jackdaniell made this build, so he can talk more about it and why the infused jewelery trait is NOT OP.

Would b nice if they just stopped the nerfs...

ccfeeling · April 2018

So many people dislike argon potion passive

Infuse trait can also burst all other enhancements, please try before yell and nerf

Asgari · April 2018

Infused is fine .. ONCE ITS FIXED!

In what way is its current bugged state balanced by any means?

Qbiken · April 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Infused is bugged.

I’d like Hybrid builds to work too, but if the fix ruins your hybrid build then so be it.

https://youtu.be/OvjW5OVblK0

@Vaoh

He's not calling for it to be. Calm down.

The bug is that the scaling is looping about 9 times for each enchant. That just needs fixed.

That's it. That's all. People are afraid of wide, sweeping nerfs where none are needed.

For some reason this only seems to happen with enchants that reduces the cost/duration of stuff. Working as it should with recovery-glyphs and weapon-/spell damage glyphs. At the moment it works quite similar to how an infused off-hand weapon works. I wonder if a change to jewellery "Infused" will have any effects on "weapon-infused"......

WatchYourSixx · April 2018

It's interesting to note, infused wep/spell damage is equivalent to 835 wep/spell damage or equivalent to 8770 mag or stamina (wep/spell dmg * 10.5).

A normal set of damage jewelry is 870*3 Stam or mag, (2610 total) and 522 wep/spell damage. Combining these two, in equivalent values, we get a total of 8091 equivalent Stam or Magicka.

Therefore infused is objectively better by about 7.8% in a pure damage scenario, assuming all damage is the usual (mag/Stam + wep/spell dmg * 10.5) which most abilities are.

I think stamina will benefit more from weapon damage due to fighters guild and medium armor passives gaining a lot more than just the simple 835 with infused. A typical Stam character might see iirc 20% bonus weapon damage from dawnbreaker, medium armor, and more if you have trap or other fighters guild skills. From this we can assume that the bonus is additive, so 522 becomes 940~ weapon damage, or about 118 more, add in even more bonuses with major and minor brutality and suddenly you are looking at 1070 weapon damage just from jewelry alone.

In comparison, the same bonuses can be seen from a robust point of view, but not nearly as much. 522 weapon damage becomes 757 on an average Stam build. Now let's look at the robust 2610 stamina.. I believe the average stamina build gains 14% bonus if redguard (can't think of any bonuses other than racial and undaunted) so that new total becomes 2975 stamina from jewelry.

One last comparison because I love numbers, for stamina alone, infused would give equivalent of 11235 stamina total with typical bonuses. Robust gives you equivalent of 10924 stamina. This means combining bonuses we see infused is only 2.8% better.. this does seem odd that the gap isn't larger, but I think my math is right.. I double checked. My guess is since equivalent is stamina + weapon dmg which is two raw stats plus 45% bonus wep dmg, whereas the infused with bonuses is raw wep dmg with 105% bonus.

I guess I'm just bored, but I hope this helps someone and I hope the values I mention here are intended by ZoS. My assumptions were correct in that infused is better for stamina users, but not quite as big as I thought.

Alcast · April 2018

INFUSED IS BUGGED.

Once its fixed, test again.

Juhasow · April 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Even when working as intended, it will be overpowered. It will reduce pots to 21s. Meaning you can run 2x pots.

Sub out current sustain set for CA. It will be 466 spell power effectively. Yes, you lose a bit of damage from jewlery. (3 damage glyphs on infused jewelry adds 835) however the effects you gain is massive.

If you use the same stat potions 2z current potions give 336 regen equivalent of whatever stat. With a pot every 21s, you get 722 of sustain.

If you use immo pots, you will have 50%+ uptime on immovable, 11s every 21s. You can run more buffs from the potions effects. I.e. health mag immovable, and stam, speed, immovable. That is 20% on all stats, major expedition, and 50% immovable uptime. Maybe things like lingering pots with others.

Then the geckos get even more regen based of their passives, and the NBs get more ulti.

The thing I am most affaraid of are argonians using lingering health+major vitality potions. We'll have builds with 75% major vitality uptime and I think many people remembers what that means especially on argonians.