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Please Add Number Statistics in Trials- This will benefit everyone

  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    Just reading these comments I see the same argument play out.

    One side claims that if you add this feature it’ll incentivize groups to kick underperforming players, and lead to a toxic environment. The other side claims it’s a feature that actually allows them to understand what they’re doing in a real trial in order to improve themselves.

    In the end..... well it’s pretty much impossible to argue how useful a tool like this is in self-improvement.

    Idk what the point is in trying to hide your low DPS. Much easier to just improve yourself. Plus anyway, those stats don’t have to be available for others to see - it should be a private report just like when you defeat a target skeleton.
  • Guarlet
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    I'm not at all against the idea of it, because this sort of thing is very common in MMOs (no, it's not only WOW that does it). Also, it exists for a much better reason than just "oMG they're going to use it to judge n00blets, everybody freak out now."

    In very difficult content, like raids are meant to be, everybody- or at least most people- have to do their part, or the whole group will fail. If there is a boss with a DPS race mechanic, and the DPS aren't holding up their end, then guess what? The boss doesn't die, and all 12 people will have wasted their time and energy there. In situations like these, it can be very helpful to look at how every person in the group is doing so that those who aren't quite performing up to par can be told so, and either replaced and/or hopefully helped out so that they learn to do so, and thus play better in the future.

    It's meant to be an improvement tool. Contrary to seemingly popular opinion, raids aren't actually all about you. They're about working together as a group, and identifying weaknesses so the whole group can perform better and better.

    Even though dungeons are easier, the same sort of concept applies to them.. Nobody wants to carry someone who's doing 5k DPS through a DLC dungeon. Again, it's just a waste of time for the other three people who have to haul ass for you.

    Is it possible to make people always be kind about it? Hopefully they will but unfortunately the reality is no, it's not. But being able to see public stats definitely has many benefits, especially in hard content (in easy content, it really doesn't matter so much).
    AKA The Goblinator, PC/EU
  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.

    Sounds like you were in a group of toxic ppl. You’ll find groups like that in any MMO. Don’t base your opinion on a feature like this from one bad experience.

    Oh I had quite a few "bad experiences" with group content in wow which is why I eventually left.
    Wasn't always like that though..just within the last 2 expansions of wow that this notion of "high dps or don't bother" mentality started to become prevalent along with fake tanks and fake healers to just speed race through content and burn down everything with sheer dps.

    That sounds no different from ESO, so I wouldn’t call it a wow-specific problem. Js.

    And I don’t play wow so I’m not even trying to defend it or anything. You’re talking about stuff that you thought was horrible in that game but I witness the very same in occasional ESO Group Finder pugs (if not worse).
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    Nope. Trials community cam be clicky at best of times, no need for more leetism and putting people off content

    The top guys running the top 1% of content know their crew anyway so honestly its not needed.

    Time them on a dummy done.
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  • Colecovision
    Colecovision
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    I wish those stats existed. Data is good. Tools are good.

    People are going to use whatever tools they can find to be who they are. Just seeing someones class is enough to set off some of these toxic jerks. The existence of target dummies is way too big of a tool for those people. If we are trying to avoid a cesspool of dps snobs, we've already failed.

    But there's already a crowd of helpful people as well. And helpful people will use these tools to help others improve. Self reliant people will take the stats and work on it the way they can. I'm just not buying the idea that adding info is going to turn positive people negative and I want to steer clear of the other crowd anyway.
  • Merlin13KAGL
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.

    Sounds like you were in a group of toxic ppl. You’ll find groups like that in any MMO. Don’t base your opinion on a feature like this from one bad experience.

    Oh I had quite a few "bad experiences" with group content in wow which is why I eventually left.
    Wasn't always like that though..just within the last 2 expansions of wow that this notion of "high dps or don't bother" mentality started to become prevalent along with fake tanks and fake healers to just speed race through content and burn down everything with sheer dps.
    Best you can do is offer up advice. If they're too l33t, stubborn, or foolish to take it, it's your time they're wasting, not the other way around.

    Anymore, I give it about 3 strikes and I move on. (3 strikes at taking constructive criticism or suggestion, not necessarily 3 wipes at a boss.)

    I've a second account, and the presumptions people make because they see a different build or a CP number / character level can be astounding.

    Feed wisdom freely to those that will willingly sit at the table. Let the ones that simply don't like the dinnerware pattern feel free to starve.

    They'll eventually figure it out...or they won't.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

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  • Juju_beans
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.

    Sounds like you were in a group of toxic ppl. You’ll find groups like that in any MMO. Don’t base your opinion on a feature like this from one bad experience.

    Oh I had quite a few "bad experiences" with group content in wow which is why I eventually left.
    Wasn't always like that though..just within the last 2 expansions of wow that this notion of "high dps or don't bother" mentality started to become prevalent along with fake tanks and fake healers to just speed race through content and burn down everything with sheer dps.

    That sounds no different from ESO, so I wouldn’t call it a wow-specific problem. Js.

    And I don’t play wow so I’m not even trying to defend it or anything. You’re talking about stuff that you thought was horrible in that game but I witness the very same in occasional ESO Group Finder pugs (if not worse).

    From what I see ESO is just starting to go down this path. Wow had a few years head start.

    I use FTC myself and only for myself to improve.
    Edited by Juju_beans on April 20, 2018 5:19PM
  • mobicera
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    If it is a private view, ie. Shows after a boss fight/end of dungeon what % of the damage/healing you did and your dps/hps, then I could get behind this as it would be a useful tool for self improvement. However I could not get behind a public view as I can easily see that used to troll the new or learning, which I see as detrimental.
    Besides in this game it's very easy to tell in most situations who isn't preforming the role well...
  • Wrecking_Blow_Spam
    Wrecking_Blow_Spam
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    Yes!!!

    I member on destiny when new oryx trail came out. I was in toxic group claiming to know everything, the kinds who inspect your gear etc and claim you not do good damage...

    Every boss (fail) attempt it showed the dps numbers, I was more than double, usually triple them. It was very satisfying telling them to git gud
    Xbox one EU
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  • Kamatsu
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.
    Can't say what WoW's raiding community is like now, but it used to actually be a very, very, very small % of it's player base. Back in 2012 WoW Dev's admitted on the old official forums that only around 7-8% of the player base had ever even set foot into a raid, let alone completed one or gone onto do the harder raids. They said this was why they were looking at ways to make at least the starting raids easier to do, easier to access, have a 'story' type mode for raids (ended up being Looking-For-Raid system).

    Right now can't really say, since with Legion they locked the ending of the expansions main story behind having to complete certain LFR raids... so basically anyone who wants to do the story of Legion has to raid... regardless of whether they like to or not.

    But yes, WoW was extremely toxic in regards to forming groups for both raids and dungeons. People used an addon which would rate/score their gear based on it's ilvl, stat distribution, source, rarity, their class, etc. So anyone who didn't have a gearscore that matched what ppl wanted would get excluded/kicked. Heck, I saw ppl demanding X gearscore just for PvE questing groups for overworld stuff. You'd see the LFR/LFP adverts demanding X gearscore or don't bother, people got kicked regularly from random dungeon/raid que's because their gearscore was too low for what ppl were asking.

    And no, before you ask... the gearscore they were asking for wasn't the low end of 'viable'... they were demanding higher than needed... so were looking to be carried or easy/quick completion via overgearing the content. They were toxic and elitist... and the gearscore addon enabled this.

    and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see this become more of an issue in ESO if the base game enables these kind of stats. It's bad enough as it stands with CombatMetrics and ppl demanding ppl be able to do X dps vs a target dummy for guilds & such.... if suddenly ppl had easier access to these stats at the end of the trails/dungeons, I wonder how many more ppl would get blacklisted/ignored due to their performance. And yes, I'm sure this happens now on PC with ppl being able to use CombatMetrics addon.

    o_O
  • AlnilamE
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    It's good if you use to to improve. It's bad if you use it against other players to exclude.
    And after a while people just look at the lowest numbered player to automatically "kick".

    I agree but that is already happening in Trials Groups, but they base this off of dummies instead and the players never get a chance to show their strengths. A person could be amazing with raid awareness and can outperform a dummy destroyer

    If someone is amazing with raid awareness, there is no way to measure that via stats. But anyone interested in trying a new player for a raid group can take them into a vet dungeon with difficult mechanics and watch how they do.

    Though in the "fun stats" department, a "Took more damage than the Tank" achievement would be something.
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Just reading these comments I see the same argument play out.

    One side claims that if you add this feature it’ll incentivize groups to kick underperforming players, and lead to a toxic environment. The other side claims it’s a feature that actually allows them to understand what they’re doing in a real trial in order to improve themselves.

    In the end..... well it’s pretty much impossible to argue how useful a tool like this is in self-improvement.

    Idk what the point is in trying to hide your low DPS. Much easier to just improve yourself. Plus anyway, those stats don’t have to be available for others to see - it should be a private report just like when you defeat a target skeleton.

    Private information is fine. But the OP was suggesting it be available to the raid leader (though how that would happen I'm not sure, since Crown is usually the tank)
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  • Hallothiel
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    The only way I would agree to this is if it was a private view.

    I have only just started doing vet trials and the lovely guild I am in helps with training runs but I would find it utterly horrible to have my dps (or lack!) exposed to all.

    Also because as been mentioned trials are not necessarily all about dps but the 12 working together as a team, with tanks & healers doing their roles, and in some trials dps have to go off & do certain tasks that might reduce their final dps.
    PS4 / EU

    It’s all utterly ridiculous.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    Hey Everyone: I never claimed that this would fix people being excluded. In fact I know this would exclude people.

    These are the main points I would like to go for and why.

    1. Vet Trials Only- Limits the amount of people exposed to this "app"
    2. People are already excluded before a trial because of test dummies. People will now at least be able to be given an option to be tried out with seen results during a trial.
    3. Certain Sets that (Proc when you dodge or take damage, etc type sets) look pretty interesting to use but no DPS could ever really see if it is beneficial for the group.
    4. It will expand a groups ability to see how different tactics affect a trial for bettor or worse.
    5. It will challenge those who want to be challenged in end game content. No need to have this for regular dungeons or normal trials. Vet Trial Only
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    Raid awareness could mean that they don't have to play as much defense thus allowing them to do more damage or knowing where not to stand so that they don't die giving them a total DPS of 0. Someone with more raid awareness but lower dummy dps could outperform a high dummy dps
    Vaoh wrote: »
    If someone is amazing with raid awareness, there is no way to measure that via stats. But anyone interested in trying a new player for a raid group can take them into a vet dungeon with difficult mechanics and watch how they do.

    Though in the "fun stats" department, a "Took more damage than the Tank" achievement would be something.
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • Peekachu99
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    Omg. It’s almost as if you’ve never heard of DCUO and how their “Scorecard” singlehandedly turned their community into a festering boil of number chasing misery. I’ve watched entire raids wipe because each dps and the healers were so obsessed with numbers that they didn’t raise each other as they died. Not an uncommon occurrence, either. It’s standard fare for that game.

    Absolutely not. We have addons and dummies. And eyes we can use to detect when damage is middling. We don’t need more tools to wield against other players—in most cases, as historically proven by ANY game, this is done with prejudice and not from a place of kindness and critique.
  • Aebaradath
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    Hey Everyone: I never claimed that this would fix people being excluded. In fact I know this would exclude people.
    All the more reason why it shouldn't be in-game.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    Peekachu99 wrote: »
    Omg. It’s almost as if you’ve never heard of DCUO and how their “Scorecard” singlehandedly turned their community into a festering boil of number chasing misery. I’ve watched entire raids wipe because each dps and the healers were so obsessed with numbers that they didn’t raise each other as they died. Not an uncommon occurrence, either. It’s standard fare for that game.

    Absolutely not. We have addons and dummies. And eyes we can use to detect when damage is middling. We don’t need more tools to wield against other players—in most cases, as historically proven by ANY game, this is done with prejudice and not from a place of kindness and critique.

    This game already has prejudice. Has no one else ever heard "Must have a minimum 35k dps"?

    Lol and its laughable to think a test dummy shows someone's worth in a trial and it promotes elitism because the only way to reach "high enough" numbers is to be a certain class with certain sets. The math is there with the optimum rotation. But it is BS because it doesn't really test a player's skill.
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    Hey Everyone: I never claimed that this would fix people being excluded. In fact I know this would exclude people.
    All the more reason why it shouldn't be in-game.

    Why did you take this out of context when I also obviously stated that test dummies already do this. I will answer by saying this will at least allow somebody to be excluded after they tryout in a trial.
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    People will always be excluded, and people will always find a way to exclude, this at least gives someone a literal fighting chance
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • CurlyQTip
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    Mureel wrote: »
    CurlyQTip wrote: »
    playing as a healer, I want to be judged, because it drives me to further improve techniques and skill

    You *** about my healing and create a valid point and I'll become better and better

    I think it'd be cool if I could compare myself to other dungeon and trial healers, but I'm not sure if putting numbers and stats on people is a good idea.

    With healers - it's not Hps you need to care about, it is SPC, ele drain, combat prayer etc uptimes and keeping tank flush with synergies.

    If people are doing things right and not being stupid, if you add in Magblades and people who use vigor in trials (which I think shouldn't happen) your HPS might be = to 35-45% of group heals - but it's your buffs and debuffs uptimes and synergies that are super important as a healer.

    That's exactly why I'm quite fearful about HPS ever becoming something people complain about. Healing is all recovering health, synergies, buffs and debuffs.

    There are those rare idiots that think HPS is somehow an important number but thankfully they are insanely rare.

    Imagine having your healing statistically logged or something, as an example. You would get people that cheese HPS to boast about it, a worthless number. Now even though you can heal through any attack, because you're not cheesing a stat you get kicked.
    Edited by CurlyQTip on April 20, 2018 7:00PM
    Signatures are for losers
  • BeefyMrTips
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    This g
    CurlyQTip wrote: »
    Mureel wrote: »
    CurlyQTip wrote: »
    playing as a healer, I want to be judged, because it drives me to further improve techniques and skill

    You *** about my healing and create a valid point and I'll become better and better

    I think it'd be cool if I could compare myself to other dungeon and trial healers, but I'm not sure if putting numbers and stats on people is a good idea.

    With healers - it's not Hps you need to care about, it is SPC, ele drain, combat prayer etc uptimes and keeping tank flush with synergies.

    If people are doing things right and not being stupid, if you add in Magblades and people who use vigor in trials (which I think shouldn't happen) your HPS might be = to 35-45% of group heals - but it's your buffs and debuffs uptimes and synergies that are super important as a healer.

    That's exactly why I'm quite fearful about HPS ever becoming something people complain about. Healing is all recovering health, synergies, buffs and debuffs.

    There are those rare idiots that think HPS is somehow an important number but thankfully they are insanely rare.

    I completely agree, this argument is mostly for DPS if I am being honest. I don't run a healer but if I did, Id consider myself successful if people lived and buffs stayed up and my tanks were happy with shards lol

    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • Sting864
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    .
    It would benefit ESO and it’s clients to have numbers generated at the end and or during every Trials.
    39215-grumpy-cat-no-Vyfj.jpeg?resize=300%2C300

    Absolutely not.... People are married to the numbers enough as it is... There are tons of things people do in trials that are not related to their Damage dealing... Keeping adds away from tanks... ping-ponging melee bosses so they spend all their time running back and forth across the battleground, ensuring that mechanics are interrupted, etc... People doing trials should worry more about what they, themselves, are doing..
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  • BeefyMrTips
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    Sting864 wrote: »
    .
    It would benefit ESO and it’s clients to have numbers generated at the end and or during every Trials.
    39215-grumpy-cat-no-Vyfj.jpeg?resize=300%2C300

    Absolutely not.... People are married to the numbers enough as it is... There are tons of things people do in trials that are not related to their Damage dealing... Keeping adds away from tanks... ping-ponging melee bosses so they spend all their time running back and forth across the battleground, ensuring that mechanics are interrupted, etc... People doing trials should worry more about what they, themselves, are doing..

    I agree but then if people are given responsibilities to do these extra steps that keep them from doing DPS then Id assume they have already proven their DPS in a trial and are relied upon more.

    If this is a problem how about allowing for a third option: Normal, Veteran, Veteran Test

    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • Juju_beans
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    I agree but then if people are given responsibilities to do these extra steps that keep them from doing DPS then Id assume they have already proven their DPS in a trial and are relied upon more.

    If this is a problem how about allowing for a third option: Normal, Veteran, Veteran Test

    Then you'd have dps players not rezzing because it would impact their numbers.
    Does it then become the healer's job to rez players because the dps need to be focused on their numbers ?

  • BeefyMrTips
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    The ultimate goal is to get away from choosing people based on what they can do to a DPS dummy. Its unrealistic but keeps so many people fr
    Juju_beans wrote: »

    I agree but then if people are given responsibilities to do these extra steps that keep them from doing DPS then Id assume they have already proven their DPS in a trial and are relied upon more.

    If this is a problem how about allowing for a third option: Normal, Veteran, Veteran Test

    Then you'd have dps players not rezzing because it would impact their numbers.
    Does it then become the healer's job to rez players because the dps need to be focused on their numbers ?

    My answer to that, Rez stat. Who did how many? It would easily justify their lower dps and show who is being a team player and give the appropriate acknowledgement that those thankless jobs should receive
    Edited by BeefyMrTips on April 20, 2018 7:14PM
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • Aebaradath
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    Hey Everyone: I never claimed that this would fix people being excluded. In fact I know this would exclude people.
    All the more reason why it shouldn't be in-game.

    Why did you take this out of context when I also obviously stated that test dummies already do this. I will answer by saying this will at least allow somebody to be excluded after they tryout in a trial.
    You can also manipulate the numbers on a dummy. Force off-balance, etc... So what's your point? We need more food for the "elitists" to keep other people from playing?

    No.
  • BeefyMrTips
    BeefyMrTips
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    Hey Everyone: I never claimed that this would fix people being excluded. In fact I know this would exclude people.
    All the more reason why it shouldn't be in-game.

    Why did you take this out of context when I also obviously stated that test dummies already do this. I will answer by saying this will at least allow somebody to be excluded after they tryout in a trial.
    You can also manipulate the numbers on a dummy. Force off-balance, etc... So what's your point? We need more food for the "elitists" to keep other people from playing?

    No.

    This "food" would at least have to be proven vs the manipulation of a dummy. or should we continue to resign ourselves that only high dps parses on dummies should allow people into vet trials as a dps character?
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • Juju_beans
    Juju_beans
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    The ultimate goal is to get away from choosing people based on what they can do to a DPS dummy. Its unrealistic but keeps so many people fr
    Juju_beans wrote: »

    I agree but then if people are given responsibilities to do these extra steps that keep them from doing DPS then Id assume they have already proven their DPS in a trial and are relied upon more.

    If this is a problem how about allowing for a third option: Normal, Veteran, Veteran Test

    Then you'd have dps players not rezzing because it would impact their numbers.
    Does it then become the healer's job to rez players because the dps need to be focused on their numbers ?

    My answer to that, Rez stat. Who did how many? It would easily justify their lower dps and show who is being a team player and give the appropriate acknowledgement that those thankless jobs should receive

    Gee then you also have to account for lost dps on those that died and didn't get razzed by their fellow players for a good few minutes.

    So besides your "rez stat" you'll also need another stat to account for loss of dps due to death..an extrapolation number.

  • redspecter23
    redspecter23
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    I'm in favor or more information. Weak players can see that they need improvement if they can visually see that they are lacking compared to others in their group. Not just for top tier 60k parses, but if others in your group are say 18k - 22k dps and you're at 3k, you can tell from a glance that you are being carried and hopefully work at improving.
  • BeefyMrTips
    BeefyMrTips
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    The ultimate goal is to get away from choosing people based on what they can do to a DPS dummy. Its unrealistic but keeps so many people fr
    Juju_beans wrote: »

    I agree but then if people are given responsibilities to do these extra steps that keep them from doing DPS then Id assume they have already proven their DPS in a trial and are relied upon more.

    If this is a problem how about allowing for a third option: Normal, Veteran, Veteran Test

    Then you'd have dps players not rezzing because it would impact their numbers.
    Does it then become the healer's job to rez players because the dps need to be focused on their numbers ?

    My answer to that, Rez stat. Who did how many? It would easily justify their lower dps and show who is being a team player and give the appropriate acknowledgement that those thankless jobs should receive

    Gee then you also have to account for lost dps on those that died and didn't get razzed by their fellow players for a good few minutes.

    So besides your "rez stat" you'll also need another stat to account for loss of dps due to death..an extrapolation number.

    I don't know of any team that doesn't appreciate someone rezzing, much less a team who would not want to see if someone is not doing their fair share of work. A person rezzing could easily make the argument that they contribute more DPS because they brought people back to life
    Edited by BeefyMrTips on April 20, 2018 7:32PM
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
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