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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 4
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 12.0.3 is available.
PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StamDK needs heavy thematic buffs. Volatile or hardened armour poison damage and scale of highest state, but maintain mag cost for stam convenience. Burning talons becomes poisonous talons and stam. Tanks need other for PvE. Deep breath becomes stamina/poison, and sets targets hit with the explode off-balance. I don't think poison whip is needed, because with poison talons, dizzy can land better. (deep, talons and dizzy +leap seems cool) But if any better StamDKs want to comment.
Volatile/ hardened armor poison might be cool but stamdk has much bigger issues than hardened poison armor. In the end it's just another small dot that isn't really that great. Even on magdk it hits vamps for 800. So a poison version will still deal something like 400-500 damage with the return.
Burning talons are used by lots of magdks in pvp and overall it doesn't really help stamdk with it's lack of burst. It's better to have it on magdk which synergise much better with it die to whip and skoria.
I'm all for poison deep breath, with a removed or reduced heal but stronger second hit to give DK more burst.
A stamina instant spammable is still one thing stamdk needs.
You have your max burst *** leap + FoO + dizzying + last tick of venemous claw with weaving but this is often only 14-20k damage and is only doable with perfect timing, also you can do this only every 12 seconds if you don't take leap into the equation.
The next issue is even if you get the full burst on your enemy most of them won't be dead so you need a follow up but you only have executioner which most people dodge and then heal up to be out of execute range.
At this moment you are stuck with spamming dizzying again which every good player will just counter by walking through you, dodge or block. With an instant spammable you can keep the pressure up after the burst and don't rely on lots of mistakes done by the enemy to win the fight.2 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel is there anything planned to make stamdk a viable pvp spec again?
During the last pts you asked us to say what stamdk needs to be viable and we made lots of proposals, ideas for changes and balance discussions and for all of them it mostly comes down to these points:
- a strong instant stamina class spammable
- atleast 2 seconds snare immunity along with the snare removal on reflective plate
- more stamina class skills
- reworking the useless passives: elder Dragon, world in ruins
- worst ulti regen of all classes although DK sustain is build around using ultimates.
Please come to this post and tell us if you plan to change anything about stamdk or if we can simply spare our breath because it doesn't help anyway
Don't stamdk pull some of the highest numbers?
Good dueling and PvE DPS but in most forms of PvP they aren't very good
They lose to any stamnb bleed, stamsorc bleed or stamplar bleed build or any defile focused build for that matter.
They aren't really good in PvE anymore aswell. Stamsorcs and nbs pull equal or more ST while having either more cleave or bring better utility to the group.
Tell that to Highpolicy and Joarden (Think I got that right). Joarden won the legend competition 2 or 3 times and legend is full of bleedblades
How often did he lose however, also i remember legend has rather strict rules. On Pc EU i don't think there is any DK, not even from the Beta ones who can win a duel against the best Bleedblades but @Subversus has much better insight on those issues.
2 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
I used to use SG a lot, it literally knocked down a lot of people who just weren’t ready for it ONCE because no one really uses. There’s a cool down so it was a one-off. Definitely not useful enough to slot. Had a bit of a heal. Dmg was nothing tho.
I replaced it with invigorating drain (drops block adds ulti). As a DK you are forced to go vamp for any kind of mobility (elusive mist). Stam DK definitely needs some sort of mobility.
All the old stuff you read says a fully buffed Stam DK is the hardest thing to kill. Yet, once you hit them with some Stam ravaging poisons they generally take off running and die QUICK. I used to kill a ton of NB’s in PvP. Now DK’s are running neck and neck with them.
DK def needs a spammable. Heavy attack 2H just doesn’t cut it. Crit rush? You’re there, then what? Dot? Venomous claw. Lol. Hope your ulti is up and leap?( I once 1vXed some taters on some stairs with Bats but most good players run out of it. I have to slot Corrosive armor ANYWAYS lol).
Stam DK NEEDS BURST. Running 7th legion to survive and agility for a lil damage LESSENS your overall damage. All I got is The Leap hehehehe. I’m gonna try 5 7th legion, 5 Unfathomable Darkness 2 Bloodspawn and see what’s up. Maybe the birds can do something. EVERYTHING seems to proc them in PVE...tho usually after everything is dead; so they usually seem to hit ME lol.0 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please look at the cost vs. what you get with ingenious shield morph with 5 secs of major mending and a tiny damage shield... 4k magicka seems way to steep for this ...
Please look at the Stam DK meta ... It is really struggling I do not see much if anything that adress's that other then the major mending increase but in the end the shield is nerfed to nothing... Your casting 4k magicka to keep a 5 sec of major mending and that basically all you get from it .... This ability is to weak for the stam DK... In PVP that new shield is less then 1k that means that your casting shield will not counter you from being executed 25% major mending will not help you.. With the amount of Ranged executes in PVP nerfing the shield is not wise....
After this patch:
Nothing really here to help the ailing stam DK ...
A weak 5sec spell with a great buff but very poor utility that is pretty expensive...
Poison dots are now weaker in PVP ... Keep in mind DOTs are weak in generalEdited by Durham on April 18, 2018 11:28PMPVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
I used to use SG a lot, it literally knocked down a lot of people who just weren’t ready for it ONCE because no one really uses. There’s a cool down so it was a one-off. Definitely not useful enough to slot. Had a bit of a heal. Dmg was nothing tho.
I replaced it with invigorating drain (drops block adds ulti). As a DK you are forced to go vamp for any kind of mobility (elusive mist). Stam DK definitely needs some sort of mobility.
All the old stuff you read says a fully buffed Stam DK is the hardest thing to kill. Yet, once you hit them with some Stam ravaging poisons they generally take off running and die QUICK. I used to kill a ton of NB’s in PvP. Now DK’s are running neck and neck with them.
DK def needs a spammable. Heavy attack 2H just doesn’t cut it. Crit rush? You’re there, then what? Dot? Venomous claw. Lol. Hope your ulti is up and leap?( I once 1vXed some taters on some stairs with Bats but most good players run out of it. I have to slot Corrosive armor ANYWAYS lol).
Stam DK NEEDS BURST. Running 7th legion to survive and agility for a lil damage LESSENS your overall damage. All I got is The Leap hehehehe. I’m gonna try 5 7th legion, 5 Unfathomable Darkness 2 Bloodspawn and see what’s up. Maybe the birds can do something. EVERYTHING seems to proc them in PVE...tho usually after everything is dead; so they usually seem to hit ME lol.
I tested UD a while ago when it was released and i hate to say don't even bother spare yourself the Pain.
The birds deal ~1.5-2k damage and just aren't good enough to use it over another offensive set or 3 agility+ ability altering weapons.
It just comes down that stamDK isn't an offensive threat but also has the weakest overall defence/ survivability.
I'm not saying you can't do well with DK, i'm just saying that you are way better off using any other class.
Everything a stamDK can, can be done by another class just better or equally good but doesn't lack in other departments like stamdk does.
(Mainly PvP focused rant)1 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel is there anything planned to make stamdk a viable pvp spec again?
During the last pts you asked us to say what stamdk needs to be viable and we made lots of proposals, ideas for changes and balance discussions and for all of them it mostly comes down to these points:
- a strong instant stamina class spammable
- atleast 2 seconds snare immunity along with the snare removal on reflective plate
- more stamina class skills
- reworking the useless passives: elder Dragon, world in ruins
- worst ulti regen of all classes although DK sustain is build around using ultimates.
Please come to this post and tell us if you plan to change anything about stamdk or if we can simply spare our breath because it doesn't help anyway
Don't stamdk pull some of the highest numbers?
Good dueling and PvE DPS but in most forms of PvP they aren't very good
They lose to any stamnb bleed, stamsorc bleed or stamplar bleed build or any defile focused build for that matter.
They aren't really good in PvE anymore aswell. Stamsorcs and nbs pull equal or more ST while having either more cleave or bring better utility to the group.
Tell that to Highpolicy and Joarden (Think I got that right). Joarden won the legend competition 2 or 3 times and legend is full of bleedblades
First of all, this game isn't balanced around duels. Second of all, (no offense to Legend) the rules that are set are rather arbitrary based on the presumption of making fights "fair". Third, by your logic every tourney in which a class has won (and believe me a stamnb, a mag sorc, a stamden, etc, etc, etc.have all won in legend tourneys before) means that they are fine as well? I'm not sure what the point of your post was. Perhaps you should stick with your NB threads and perform legitimate tests on PTS on how to balance them. Now, if you go on PTS and test DK's extensively and show that you can routinely do well on a Stam or Mag DK then I may take any posts you have on Stam DK's or Mag DK's seriously. Otherwise, perhaps I should make posts on the NB thread about all the Mag NB's and Stam NB's that have won tourneys....
As for all the other posters talking about Mag DK this, Stam DK that. Please, just get on PTS and do some tests and post suggestions on how to improve or change the skills/passives that ZOS decided to change or implement. Instead of speculation, we should show why it should be changed. I will not repeat what I wrote in a previous post, but based on my tests in PTS I have given ZOS suggestions on change. @ZOS_Wrobel please look at my suggestions earlier in this thread, along with people like @Kilandros or @MaxwellC , or anyone else for that matter who actually went on PTS and tested changes and posted their feedback. I mean, isn't that what you wanted guys? For us to get on PTS test the changes and give you our feedback on what needs to be addressed? Am I literally just conversing with an inanimate object? Will you guys consider the suggestions we've posted?Edited by Kronuxx on April 18, 2018 11:33PM2 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I really would love if some ZOS employee could actually engage in this thread post. I get we're suppose to provide feedback but feedback usually dictates a response to show you acknowledge that concern, and that you will relay that to the appropriate personnel(s) involved with that particular subject matter.
Example would be players hear stating that these changes do not fix the issues with Stamina DK PvP well at-least comment on the thread and state you're at-least passing on these issues instead of giving us a wall to cry at.
I earnestly feel that way regarding these PTS feedback threads but don't take it the wrong way @ZOS_GinaBruno . I get you're busy and it isn't entirely your job as there's others like @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert who could also suffice in actually showing us that they acknowledge our outcry.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I really would love if some ZOS employee could actually engage in this thread post. I get we're suppose to provide feedback but feedback usually dictates a response to show you acknowledge that concern, and that you will relay that to the appropriate personnel(s) involved with that particular subject matter.
Example would be players hear stating that these changes do not fix the issues with Stamina DK PvP well at-least comment on the thread and state you're at-least passing on these issues instead of giving us a wall to cry at.
I earnestly feel that way regarding these PTS feedback threads but don't take it the wrong way @ZOS_GinaBruno . I get you're busy and it isn't entirely your job as there's others like @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert who could also suffice in actually showing us that they acknowledge our outcry.
Well talking with @ZOS_Wrobel would be better he's the lead of the Combat Team and has the biggest influence on ability changes etc and he also communicated with us last Pts that he wants to read the Feedback regarding stamdk being weak in pvp.
#StamspammableforDK0 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@BohnT
Yeah but @ZOS_Wrobel doesn't comment often even now he hasn't commented on any PTS thread this year.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@BohnT
Yeah but @ZOS_Wrobel doesn't comment often even now he hasn't commented on any PTS thread this year.
He has made posts for all classes in the Dragon Bones Pts cycle iirc. Maybe we get lucky and he really answers or we are stuck wasting our time here Posting the same thi vs for months only to see nothing changing0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
I used to use SG a lot, it literally knocked down a lot of people who just weren’t ready for it ONCE because no one really uses. There’s a cool down so it was a one-off. Definitely not useful enough to slot. Had a bit of a heal. Dmg was nothing tho.
I replaced it with invigorating drain (drops block adds ulti). As a DK you are forced to go vamp for any kind of mobility (elusive mist). Stam DK definitely needs some sort of mobility.
All the old stuff you read says a fully buffed Stam DK is the hardest thing to kill. Yet, once you hit them with some Stam ravaging poisons they generally take off running and die QUICK. I used to kill a ton of NB’s in PvP. Now DK’s are running neck and neck with them.
DK def needs a spammable. Heavy attack 2H just doesn’t cut it. Crit rush? You’re there, then what? Dot? Venomous claw. Lol. Hope your ulti is up and leap?( I once 1vXed some taters on some stairs with Bats but most good players run out of it. I have to slot Corrosive armor ANYWAYS lol).
Stam DK NEEDS BURST. Running 7th legion to survive and agility for a lil damage LESSENS your overall damage. All I got is The Leap hehehehe. I’m gonna try 5 7th legion, 5 Unfathomable Darkness 2 Bloodspawn and see what’s up. Maybe the birds can do something. EVERYTHING seems to proc them in PVE...tho usually after everything is dead; so they usually seem to hit ME lol.
I tested UD a while ago when it was released and i hate to say don't even bother spare yourself the Pain.
The birds deal ~1.5-2k damage and just aren't good enough to use it over another offensive set or 3 agility+ ability altering weapons.
It just comes down that stamDK isn't an offensive threat but also has the weakest overall defence/ survivability.
I'm not saying you can't do well with DK, i'm just saying that you are way better off using any other class.
Everything a stamDK can, can be done by another class just better or equally good but doesn't lack in other departments like stamdk does.
(Mainly PvP focused rant)
Yeah, I rolled a stamblade to PvP with some pals and it’s night and day. It took forever for me two wrap my head around 2H. I HATE dizzying swing and my bars are full of stuff just to keep my DK ALIVE (igneous shield, vigor, volatile armor, corrosive armor). Everyone starts with PVE and discover PVP. A StamDK is EASY (and subsequently fun) to play in PVE. You kill stuff like a HERO and don’t even have to be that good.
I thought PVPing with a StamDK would require research, a measure of gitting good, and all that. THEN, I took my NB for a spin and was disheartened by how clunky and slow (2H and heavy) it was or just how FEEBLE. I mean I could bow tard folks to death lol. But 2H? Crit rush I’m there, now what? On my NB folks DIE.
I’m not giving up tho because (I FINALLY got bloodspawn lol).1 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭I feel very tired because changes comes, but very very slow after tonns of time iinvested to see and test the problem, than texting comments, which seems to be in 90% of cases ingnored or lost in threads.
Examples i can remember now:
1. Instant procsets few month of total trash in noncp battlegrounds until changed. And 1 year before morrowind. (fixed, sup, don't add new ones please)
2. Cost poisons stayed the same crap *** after 1,8 years of ask to nerf them to fair numbers. Nowadays they shouldbe not more 20% increase. (not fixed)
3. Durok's bane set (Wizard's perma minor Maim is same stupid..) stayed same crap pain after 8 month of asking. Permanent defile without counterplay... who designed that at all? (not fixed)
4. Battlegrounds matchmaking - 11 month after I started ask to separate premades and PUGs there. (wil be fxed in summerset)
5. Stamdk's snare-removing or /and burst healing and burst/timeable damage - 1 year of asking, almost didn't changed. Current slight buff in summerset on pts is not enouch to compesate totally underpowered year ago class. Also it feels not only weak but also not unique now ((will be fixed partially, when balanced, idk))
7. Shadow mundus smaller effect on Critical damage is smaller than Warrior mundus 10 month in a raw. And on PTS...(not fixed)
Its very slow, I don't want to be grandfather when game will work fine at least.
U can balance the game only with fast investigating and fixing of unbalanced things (1-2 weeks after revealing one) not in next big patch year afterEdited by Anethum on April 19, 2018 12:13AM@Anethum from .ua0 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »DK Skill Changes Thoughts... (just my thoughts, whatever)
Cauterize (Inferno morph): Nice for the increased range but the heal is still rather weak. I would much rather have the massive burst heal be from this skill or the heal be reduced to every three seconds. Either or I think would do the trick. However in it's current state the heal it too little and too long a wait.
Idk about you but a heal that easilu crits for 7k in pvp and 16k in pve in trials, for under 2k magicka is not weak and that isnt even considering how easy it is for dks to augment on demand heals with major mending. The wait factor is also entirely redundant since you hit the ability at any point and it will immediately fire the heal. Remaining passively active to spot heal while you are doing other actions is the additional perk. Just for comparison....
Again there are way too many people putting this under the lense of how it effects certain dk specs that these skills arent even designed for. Cauterize is very good and the 28 meter buff along with the significant projectile speed buff it recently received will make this a very formidable healing ability.
i'm curoius, what were your stats and buffs for the cauterize tooltip?
because using the same stats on templar and magdk leaves me with a 11k tooltip on breath of life and a 6,2k tooltip on cauterize. either those two screenshots were taken with a totally different setup that is vastly biased or something else is going on.
would like to know whats the issue here.Edited by Dragath on April 19, 2018 1:55AM2 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Don't you guys mess up my cauterize. It's usually my #1 heal on my DKTank over even Dragonsblood. It's definitely not in the same use category as a DB or even a Breath of Life or even other HoTs - which is what I like about it. (Though you can spam it a few times in a row to shoot a fireball out repeatedly at someone if you see they need a few shots of it).
Even with it on a tank, it still hits well enough to be an ok mini heal, is smart enough to go to someone else if I don't need it and I can put it up and forget it for a few moments. That skill is awesome and the only people I think that will disappointed in it are probably those looking for it to be what it's not like a breath of life style heal or true every second heal over time type heal. But for what is does, it's great. I was happy they made it able to self heal last year and now increasing range makes it more useful for some of the raids and dungeons that are making everyone spread out more. We really don't need to argue that it needs to be changed into a totally different type of heal IMO.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC2 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Joxer61
That is my opinion as of testing it during summerset isle PTS. PvE it still performs the same as live but PvP it still sucks just like live. Nothing this upcoming offers benefits Stamina DK other than the combustion passive addition, everything else was solely geared to Magicka DK albeit still not addressing the real issue Mag DKs faced in PvE but now they want Mag DKs to be the off branded templars lmao.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell0 -
Joxer61✭✭✭✭✭@Joxer61
That is my opinion as of testing it during summerset isle PTS. PvE it still performs the same as live but PvP it still sucks just like live. Nothing this upcoming offers benefits Stamina DK other than the combustion passive addition, everything else was solely geared to Magicka DK albeit still not addressing the real issue Mag DKs faced in PvE but now they want Mag DKs to be the off branded templars lmao.
Well crap.....should have stayed stam then from the sounds of it. I trust your opinion since you are actually testing the new stuff whereas others are just speculating based on what was said. Having just returned I am really looking for a viable class (DK based) to roll with and not be an insta kick, and still be able to kill. Again, I am purely pve (for now) but damn, why do game companys always jack up classes?
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JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Joxer61
That is my opinion as of testing it during summerset isle PTS. PvE it still performs the same as live but PvP it still sucks just like live. Nothing this upcoming offers benefits Stamina DK other than the combustion passive addition, everything else was solely geared to Magicka DK albeit still not addressing the real issue Mag DKs faced in PvE but now they want Mag DKs to be the off branded templars lmao.
Well crap.....should have stayed stam then from the sounds of it. I trust your opinion since you are actually testing the new stuff whereas others are just speculating based on what was said. Having just returned I am really looking for a viable class (DK based) to roll with and not be an insta kick, and still be able to kill. Again, I am purely pve (for now) but damn, why do game companys always jack up classes?
I PvP and PvE. I’m not an expert by any means. Of course you know the state of Stamdk in pve currently: it’s pretty good.
I’ll give you my thoughts on StamDK having recently running it. I run 2x blood Spawn, 5x 7th Legion and agility jewelry. I keep volatile armor and molten armaments up all the time. I use igneous shield and vigor if I have to heal. I’m a vampire. I use invigorating drain for cc, to generate ulti and because it drops
Block. I use 2H (a regular sword). Reverse slice to execute and Crit rush to get on them. I use DK Dunk as my main offense. Against a Zerg I drop corrosive armor, yolo in and elusive mist out and hope I can get away. Lol.
I’m not a one shot wipe artist. I kill people. I mostly solo Vivec. I kill more people than I die. I run with an organized guild in Sotha and I only really die when we ALL get zerged down which is infrequent.
My thoughts are really these. I just don’t wipe like I did in Vivec at level 10 lol. So, pvp is fun. Yet, the gameplay in PvP is clunky compared to pve. When I was after vigor and caltrops I ran my DW pve set up and was amazed how I’d run my pve rotation and folks would just stand there eating the damage lol. (No crits I guess). If there’s wasn’t such a noticeable disparity between playing a stamdk in pve vs PvP it wouldn’t be so bad. I’m new and I’m killing stuff and not dying as much so I find it fun.1 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭
I mean, is this surprising? I just don't...I mean...Why...ZOS, do you think before you act?1 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Veg
Yup exactly what we're all saying; I dueled a Mag DK and had snare on me the entire time even when using wings and that is because they didn't provide an immunity so it totally defeats the purpose of the skill.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell2 -
Joxer61✭✭✭✭✭Am I reading that mDk's sustain will be "better" than stam because we have more chances of procs...i.e. more fire based skills therefore more junk to proc off of? That should be a good thing in theory, no?0
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ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Am I reading that mDk's sustain will be "better" than stam because we have more chances of procs...i.e. more fire based skills therefore more junk to proc off of? That should be a good thing in theory, no?
Of course more sustain is good, just the way it's implemented makes it worse than on paper in PvP.
RNG chance. Doesn't work on shields. Doesn't work on Dummer for mag. Doesn't work on cloaked enemies because dot suppression.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Thanks for the Clip maybe someone of e Devs sees this and realises that we need a short duration of snare immunity0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_Wrobel is there anything planned to make stamdk a viable pvp spec again?
During the last pts you asked us to say what stamdk needs to be viable and we made lots of proposals, ideas for changes and balance discussions and for all of them it mostly comes down to these points:
- a strong instant stamina class spammable
- atleast 2 seconds snare immunity along with the snare removal on reflective plate
- more stamina class skills
- reworking the useless passives: elder Dragon, world in ruins
- worst ulti regen of all classes although DK sustain is build around using ultimates.
Please come to this post and tell us if you plan to change anything about stamdk or if we can simply spare our breath because it doesn't help anyway
Don't stamdk pull some of the highest numbers?
Good dueling and PvE DPS but in most forms of PvP they aren't very good
They lose to any stamnb bleed, stamsorc bleed or stamplar bleed build or any defile focused build for that matter.
They aren't really good in PvE anymore aswell. Stamsorcs and nbs pull equal or more ST while having either more cleave or bring better utility to the group.
Tell that to Highpolicy and Joarden (Think I got that right). Joarden won the legend competition 2 or 3 times and legend is full of bleedblades
How often did he lose however, also i remember legend has rather strict rules. On Pc EU i don't think there is any DK, not even from the Beta ones who can win a duel against the best Bleedblades but @Subversus has much better insight on those issues.
Hard to win as a DK against bleed blades to be fair. Bleeds counter block, which is the absolute biggest crutch magdk has (not even mentioning stamdk, they’re in different leagues...), and then add incap, surprise attack and merciless on top.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel is there anything planned to make stamdk a viable pvp spec again?
During the last pts you asked us to say what stamdk needs to be viable and we made lots of proposals, ideas for changes and balance discussions and for all of them it mostly comes down to these points:
- a strong instant stamina class spammable
- atleast 2 seconds snare immunity along with the snare removal on reflective plate
- more stamina class skills
- reworking the useless passives: elder Dragon, world in ruins
- worst ulti regen of all classes although DK sustain is build around using ultimates.
Please come to this post and tell us if you plan to change anything about stamdk or if we can simply spare our breath because it doesn't help anyway
Don't stamdk pull some of the highest numbers?
Good dueling and PvE DPS but in most forms of PvP they aren't very good
They lose to any stamnb bleed, stamsorc bleed or stamplar bleed build or any defile focused build for that matter.
They aren't really good in PvE anymore aswell. Stamsorcs and nbs pull equal or more ST while having either more cleave or bring better utility to the group.
Tell that to Highpolicy and Joarden (Think I got that right). Joarden won the legend competition 2 or 3 times and legend is full of bleedblades
How often did he lose however, also i remember legend has rather strict rules. On Pc EU i don't think there is any DK, not even from the Beta ones who can win a duel against the best Bleedblades but @Subversus has much better insight on those issues.
Hard to win as a DK against bleed blades to be fair. Bleeds counter block, which is the absolute biggest crutch magdk has (not even mentioning stamdk, they’re in different leagues...), and then add incap, surprise attack and merciless on top.
Thank you i just don't see how a stamdk could win a duel tournament against good Bleedblades and not only those but also all Defile Magicka builds.0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_Wrobel is there anything planned to make stamdk a viable pvp spec again?
During the last pts you asked us to say what stamdk needs to be viable and we made lots of proposals, ideas for changes and balance discussions and for all of them it mostly comes down to these points:
- a strong instant stamina class spammable
- atleast 2 seconds snare immunity along with the snare removal on reflective plate
- more stamina class skills
- reworking the useless passives: elder Dragon, world in ruins
- worst ulti regen of all classes although DK sustain is build around using ultimates.
Please come to this post and tell us if you plan to change anything about stamdk or if we can simply spare our breath because it doesn't help anyway
Don't stamdk pull some of the highest numbers?
Good dueling and PvE DPS but in most forms of PvP they aren't very good
They lose to any stamnb bleed, stamsorc bleed or stamplar bleed build or any defile focused build for that matter.
They aren't really good in PvE anymore aswell. Stamsorcs and nbs pull equal or more ST while having either more cleave or bring better utility to the group.
Tell that to Highpolicy and Joarden (Think I got that right). Joarden won the legend competition 2 or 3 times and legend is full of bleedblades
How often did he lose however, also i remember legend has rather strict rules. On Pc EU i don't think there is any DK, not even from the Beta ones who can win a duel against the best Bleedblades but @Subversus has much better insight on those issues.
Hard to win as a DK against bleed blades to be fair. Bleeds counter block, which is the absolute biggest crutch magdk has (not even mentioning stamdk, they’re in different leagues...), and then add incap, surprise attack and merciless on top.
Thank you i just don't see how a stamdk could win a duel tournament against good Bleedblades and not only those but also all Defile Magicka builds.
I don’t see how a stamdk could win against any good players at all, no matter the skill of the stamdk. It only shows what kind of players he/she was fighting. But then again, it’s common knowledge that the NA scene has only recently been dipping in the cancer duel meta, so they still have some stuff to discover. Like how a sorc can win against a magblade LUL2 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TL:DR up to this point
- snare removal alone on reflective plate is useless and needs atleast a 2 seconds snare immunity afterwards
- Magdk is viable again in PvE DPS
- Healing changes are okayish and will make healing easier but still not comparable to templar or warden healers for endgame (all 4 man dungeons including vDSA are easily doable with DK healer, enough to heal through vet AA, HRC, SO but nothing special)
- Magdk really strong in PvP with the changes
- stamdk still worst spec in PvP
- still needs a stam spammable
- doesn't has meaningful burst
Magma shell and Corrosive Armor both underwhelming due to high cost with long duration. Better: half cost and duration to increase the critical uptime when you want to survive a pressure peak.
For more details read the whole discussion.
#stamspammableforDK2 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭- Magdk is viable again in PvE DPS
Applying a small resource gain that only procs on application of burning and has a cooldown isn't magically going to turn mDK into viable as DDs.
It's a very small buff in the right direction, but it's nothing more than that.
The changes to Cinder Storm, Obsidian shield and shard and Cauterize also mean nothing for a MagDK DD, it's aimed at making DK healers more viable.
All the general buffs to staves and mag are general buffs that benefit mNB and mSorc just as much.
Leave your own feedback if you must, but don't speak on behalf of the entire discussion with a tl;dr summary.1
K SNARE REMOVAL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l260qS5-wU
