Templars need reform because the game has changed

aeowulf · April 2018

yes the skill point thing is not an issue at all, there is an abundance of them, but it's something to keep in mind when listing the differences, for completionism as it were.

You would trade Repentence for a passive that only procs when you cast a damaging assassinate ability, when Templars don't have that tree???!! and did you not see the bit about getting less resources back than it cost to proc?? wow (The NET resource gain of Repentence, <under some circumstances> can be positive. Executioner will always be negative)

Disregarding that, it's not a simple trade, would Repentence become a passive for me? Then yes, defo, because Executioner is broken, and even if it wasn't it has such a tight set of requirements it's daft. Would it stay a skill? yes defo, and then i'd use the other morph... because Repentence is really bad <in it's current (cool as) form>. It's like asking do I want to be kicked in the groin with someone's right foot or kicked in the groin with someone's left foot...

What you probably need it to be is helping hands-esq, a passive that procs on a cast, something you have control over. Or even better just put back how it was. Personally if I could choose a direction for it I'd make it a cost to cast, apply minor stamina steal, and a mob that dies with if on goes boom, with an AE resource restore as they truly repent. It's more suited to being a passive that would apply when something in range died, then all Templars in a group would get some use. Only skill in the game that encourages a class not to group ?

Point is, both skills are awful, and need reviewing. Repentence especially, because NB DPS/healers can use siphoning to decent effect, and the NB tank voice is small enough to ignore, to a point. (made up by passion I feel)

DisgracefulMind · April 2018

Solariken wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

The viability of the templar class in solo PvP rested on the fulcrum that was the blazing spear cc. The old blazing spear cc allowed Templars to seamlessly transition from defense to offense. It made the skills flow together. The class played so smoothly at that point.

Now the class feels like a clunky heap of skills thrown together with no real vision.

I think we all miss that CC, but I'm sure we also remember how downright savage that CC was in a proper combo and how disgustingly well it synergized with the misty blockplar build type. There really wasn't any counterplay to that and they kind of nipped it in the bud before it got overwhelmingly popular.

That was an entirely different game at the time though, that build isn't viable anymore as you can't sustain the damage and resources to even do it.

Again, Templars also shouldn't be nerfed due to broken gear. That's a gear issue, not a Templar issue.

aeowulf · April 2018

danno8 wrote: »

I don't think the skill point one is really an issue, and using a skill to proc it hardly matters when you are using those skills anyway

Just to clarify, no. I did not have any skill that would proc this slotted when I was tanking (pre Morrowind) so the <slot> point still stands. Only DPS/Healers are likely to have one of the skills required, and they get effective use from siphoning anyway.

The passive is SO bad in real world usage, most NB don't even know it's broken... does that give you perspective on it?

My point still stands, both are awful.

Drdeath20 · April 2018

Bump

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Stam Morphs/Supplemental morphs:
DK:

Cinbri wrote: »

Is it only me feel weird that passive called Restoring Spirit is located in offensive tree instead of defensive tree called Restoring Light?

I think that's the passive that use to be the huge regen that nightblade/sorc eventually got. Interestingly the +weapon damage passive Balanced Warrior kinda got handed out like candy to Sorc and Warden as well. Nothing that made Templar unique is unique any more and Templar really hasn't been given anything to replace it in my view. I want Templar to feel like a warrior. Frankly I want it more DK-like in style. They're Knights just less evil looking.

NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0 (Executioner passive) about a year or so ago, right about when Repentance got the nerf hammer.

@danno8 & @dodgehopper_ESO

Re "NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0"

Where??? I missed that memo... Oh, and don't read the tooltip. My lowdown between the two skills (apologies if i missed something)

1)Both require a corpse, this is bad news in the first place. Corpse often means the fight's over. Not many bosses with a lot of adds, and it's these fights where resource management is more important.
2)Repentence requires 2 skill points & 1 slot vs executioner requiring 3-4 skill points and one slot (for the skill to proc it)
3)Repentence also provides regen assistance, but this sucks as I believe it's only active on one bar? (needs to be active all the time)
4)Executioner requires perfect timing in a 2 second window vs Repentence where you can choose when to harvest
5)Executioner requires a skill cast that COSTS MORE than it restores
6)Executioner <used> to have the same limitation of one person would get the resources, Repentence REALLY needs to have a 'if a corpse in x radius is repented, you also get the resources - and not require that one to be double barred.
7)Executioner requires a 'passive' slot

And here's the kicker:
8)When ZOS changed it a year ago they broke it, and it now DOES NOT RETURN RESOURCES if you land the killing blow, and landing those 45k+ executes is what stamblades do a lot of in the last 2 seconds of a fight... Chances of getting the killing blow is pretty high.

Both skills suck in their own ways, BUT NB get siphoning which is awesome, unless you play a tankblade where it is the least friendly skill ever. Could be resolved by also procing on taking damage (with cooldown).

My view is stamplar/tankplar/tankblade need help in sustain, as they are WAY out of line with other class/role combinations, except maybe magDK. Be it through revisiting (or fixing) current skills & passives. Repentence is kinda cool though - am scared it would loose that if touched by ZoS Things like regen boosts, don't help when blocking. ZoS don't see this, or at least don't appear to when it comes to balance.

My other view is Argonians, which have better sustain than most classes! Answer to stamplars/tankplars/tankblades should not be 'play an Argonian' to fix your sustain but it is, kinda

I'm not saying they cannot be played, but to do so requires a ton of experience, perfect gear, a boat load of CP and probably a specific racial choice. They are not viable for new players in the slightest.

Everyone needs to stop being selfish and look at the bigger picture. Look at who you group with & their class/role combos. Start shouting for the DK healers (and other class/roles combos) because you never see them in vet finder - this is a fairly good indication of what's good and what isn't. A group with only a templar healer, dk tank, a stamblade and mag sorc is ok, until it's the 6th one in a row - gets boring.

I never said that NB gets Repentance 2.0. My guess was that he was referring to the Mark skill or as you surmised the execute but at any regard that wasn't the point of my post regarding NB nor was it meant as a knock to NB. My 2nd highest achievement character is a nightblade and has always been a top favorite (I'm a huge argonian fan). I'm most definitely not anti-Nightblade. I also agree with your viewpoint that having more than one playstyle is exactly the point and what ZoS intended to offer us. Eventually I reckon they'll get there. Slow but sure I think they might be trying but things get frustrating at times. Back to my point that I think you were referring to I was merely saying that Stamplar feels like playing a Stamblade that can't cloak and probably doesn't have as good ultimates. My views on cloak (and now I'm getting off track so I'll keep this short) are murky. Cloak is a really fun skill and fantastic in PvE. I've seen it in pvp on multiple games now and it either causes the cloaking class to be so feeble as to be worthless or so powerful as to be godlike. I've rarely seen it hit a comfortable balance. I'm not saying it can't be done but I know its hard for developers.

aeowulf · April 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Stam Morphs/Supplemental morphs:
DK:

Cinbri wrote: »

Is it only me feel weird that passive called Restoring Spirit is located in offensive tree instead of defensive tree called Restoring Light?

I think that's the passive that use to be the huge regen that nightblade/sorc eventually got. Interestingly the +weapon damage passive Balanced Warrior kinda got handed out like candy to Sorc and Warden as well. Nothing that made Templar unique is unique any more and Templar really hasn't been given anything to replace it in my view. I want Templar to feel like a warrior. Frankly I want it more DK-like in style. They're Knights just less evil looking.

NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0 (Executioner passive) about a year or so ago, right about when Repentance got the nerf hammer.

@danno8 & @dodgehopper_ESO

Re "NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0"

Where??? I missed that memo... Oh, and don't read the tooltip. My lowdown between the two skills (apologies if i missed something)

1)Both require a corpse, this is bad news in the first place. Corpse often means the fight's over. Not many bosses with a lot of adds, and it's these fights where resource management is more important.
2)Repentence requires 2 skill points & 1 slot vs executioner requiring 3-4 skill points and one slot (for the skill to proc it)
3)Repentence also provides regen assistance, but this sucks as I believe it's only active on one bar? (needs to be active all the time)
4)Executioner requires perfect timing in a 2 second window vs Repentence where you can choose when to harvest
5)Executioner requires a skill cast that COSTS MORE than it restores
6)Executioner <used> to have the same limitation of one person would get the resources, Repentence REALLY needs to have a 'if a corpse in x radius is repented, you also get the resources - and not require that one to be double barred.
7)Executioner requires a 'passive' slot

And here's the kicker:
8)When ZOS changed it a year ago they broke it, and it now DOES NOT RETURN RESOURCES if you land the killing blow, and landing those 45k+ executes is what stamblades do a lot of in the last 2 seconds of a fight... Chances of getting the killing blow is pretty high.

Both skills suck in their own ways, BUT NB get siphoning which is awesome, unless you play a tankblade where it is the least friendly skill ever. Could be resolved by also procing on taking damage (with cooldown).

My view is stamplar/tankplar/tankblade need help in sustain, as they are WAY out of line with other class/role combinations, except maybe magDK. Be it through revisiting (or fixing) current skills & passives. Repentence is kinda cool though - am scared it would loose that if touched by ZoS Things like regen boosts, don't help when blocking. ZoS don't see this, or at least don't appear to when it comes to balance.

My other view is Argonians, which have better sustain than most classes! Answer to stamplars/tankplars/tankblades should not be 'play an Argonian' to fix your sustain but it is, kinda

I'm not saying they cannot be played, but to do so requires a ton of experience, perfect gear, a boat load of CP and probably a specific racial choice. They are not viable for new players in the slightest.

Everyone needs to stop being selfish and look at the bigger picture. Look at who you group with & their class/role combos. Start shouting for the DK healers (and other class/roles combos) because you never see them in vet finder - this is a fairly good indication of what's good and what isn't. A group with only a templar healer, dk tank, a stamblade and mag sorc is ok, until it's the 6th one in a row - gets boring.

I never said that NB gets Repentance 2.0. My guess was that he was referring to the Mark skill or as you surmised the execute but at any regard that wasn't the point of my post regarding NB nor was it meant as a knock to NB. My 2nd highest achievement character is a nightblade and has always been a top favorite (I'm a huge argonian fan). I'm most definitely not anti-Nightblade. I also agree with your viewpoint that having more than one playstyle is exactly the point and what ZoS intended to offer us. Eventually I reckon they'll get there. Slow but sure I think they might be trying but things get frustrating at times. Back to my point that I think you were referring to I was merely saying that Stamplar feels like playing a Stamblade that can't cloak and probably doesn't have as good ultimates. My views on cloak (and now I'm getting off track so I'll keep this short) are murky. Cloak is a really fun skill and fantastic in PvE. I've seen it in pvp on multiple games now and it either causes the cloaking class to be so feeble as to be worthless or so powerful as to be godlike. I've rarely seen it hit a comfortable balance. I'm not saying it can't be done but I know its hard for developers.

no, it was @danno8 that mentioned it, specifically referring to the Executioner passive. You were tagged as you were quoted by danno8 and I was butting in to your conversation! I felt my comments were relevant to the conversation as a whole, rather than an individual.

Mixed views on cloak too - love it for pve quest grinding, but pvp... I don't really like how it works, and don't actually slot it on my NB in pvp - tend to fight to the death as I could never get it to work to escape anyway! My partner plays templar and we BG a fair bit these days (also why i don't slot cloak) She slots at least one Templar ulti, where i'm usually running dawnbreaker and ballista/barrier - both non class ulti's - a stamplar also has those. My choice though, harvest & tether are good options too.

I'd love for stamplars in particular to get some help. A very good RL mate (around 200cp) quit playing with Morrowind because of the changes that hit his kajiit stamblade

Those changes did not attract anyone to ESO, but they certainly pushed people away - not the best business model

Mr_Nobody · April 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Stam Morphs/Supplemental morphs:
DK:

Cinbri wrote: »

Is it only me feel weird that passive called Restoring Spirit is located in offensive tree instead of defensive tree called Restoring Light?

I think that's the passive that use to be the huge regen that nightblade/sorc eventually got. Interestingly the +weapon damage passive Balanced Warrior kinda got handed out like candy to Sorc and Warden as well. Nothing that made Templar unique is unique any more and Templar really hasn't been given anything to replace it in my view. I want Templar to feel like a warrior. Frankly I want it more DK-like in style. They're Knights just less evil looking.

NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0 (Executioner passive) about a year or so ago, right about when Repentance got the nerf hammer.

@danno8 & @dodgehopper_ESO

Re "NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0"

Where??? I missed that memo... Oh, and don't read the tooltip. My lowdown between the two skills (apologies if i missed something)

1)Both require a corpse, this is bad news in the first place. Corpse often means the fight's over. Not many bosses with a lot of adds, and it's these fights where resource management is more important.
2)Repentence requires 2 skill points & 1 slot vs executioner requiring 3-4 skill points and one slot (for the skill to proc it)
3)Repentence also provides regen assistance, but this sucks as I believe it's only active on one bar? (needs to be active all the time)
4)Executioner requires perfect timing in a 2 second window vs Repentence where you can choose when to harvest
5)Executioner requires a skill cast that COSTS MORE than it restores
6)Executioner <used> to have the same limitation of one person would get the resources, Repentence REALLY needs to have a 'if a corpse in x radius is repented, you also get the resources - and not require that one to be double barred.
7)Executioner requires a 'passive' slot

And here's the kicker:
8)When ZOS changed it a year ago they broke it, and it now DOES NOT RETURN RESOURCES if you land the killing blow, and landing those 45k+ executes is what stamblades do a lot of in the last 2 seconds of a fight... Chances of getting the killing blow is pretty high.

Both skills suck in their own ways, BUT NB get siphoning which is awesome, unless you play a tankblade where it is the least friendly skill ever. Could be resolved by also procing on taking damage (with cooldown).

My view is stamplar/tankplar/tankblade need help in sustain, as they are WAY out of line with other class/role combinations, except maybe magDK. Be it through revisiting (or fixing) current skills & passives. Repentence is kinda cool though - am scared it would loose that if touched by ZoS Things like regen boosts, don't help when blocking. ZoS don't see this, or at least don't appear to when it comes to balance.

My other view is Argonians, which have better sustain than most classes! Answer to stamplars/tankplars/tankblades should not be 'play an Argonian' to fix your sustain but it is, kinda

I'm not saying they cannot be played, but to do so requires a ton of experience, perfect gear, a boat load of CP and probably a specific racial choice. They are not viable for new players in the slightest.

Everyone needs to stop being selfish and look at the bigger picture. Look at who you group with & their class/role combos. Start shouting for the DK healers (and other class/roles combos) because you never see them in vet finder - this is a fairly good indication of what's good and what isn't. A group with only a templar healer, dk tank, a stamblade and mag sorc is ok, until it's the 6th one in a row - gets boring.

I never said that NB gets Repentance 2.0. My guess was that he was referring to the Mark skill or as you surmised the execute but at any regard that wasn't the point of my post regarding NB nor was it meant as a knock to NB. My 2nd highest achievement character is a nightblade and has always been a top favorite (I'm a huge argonian fan). I'm most definitely not anti-Nightblade. I also agree with your viewpoint that having more than one playstyle is exactly the point and what ZoS intended to offer us. Eventually I reckon they'll get there. Slow but sure I think they might be trying but things get frustrating at times. Back to my point that I think you were referring to I was merely saying that Stamplar feels like playing a Stamblade that can't cloak and probably doesn't have as good ultimates. My views on cloak (and now I'm getting off track so I'll keep this short) are murky. Cloak is a really fun skill and fantastic in PvE. I've seen it in pvp on multiple games now and it either causes the cloaking class to be so feeble as to be worthless or so powerful as to be godlike. I've rarely seen it hit a comfortable balance. I'm not saying it can't be done but I know its hard for developers.

no, it was @danno8 that mentioned it, specifically referring to the Executioner passive. You were tagged as you were quoted by danno8 and I was butting in to your conversation! I felt my comments were relevant to the conversation as a whole, rather than an individual.

Mixed views on cloak too - love it for pve quest grinding, but pvp... I don't really like how it works, and don't actually slot it on my NB in pvp - tend to fight to the death as I could never get it to work to escape anyway! My partner plays templar and we BG a fair bit these days (also why i don't slot cloak) She slots at least one Templar ulti, where i'm usually running dawnbreaker and ballista/barrier - both non class ulti's - a stamplar also has those. My choice though, harvest & tether are good options too.

I'd love for stamplars in particular to get some help. A very good RL mate (around 200cp) quit playing with Morrowind because of the changes that hit his kajiit stamblade Those changes did not attract anyone to ESO, but they certainly pushed people away - not the best business model

Lol how many people have left due to constant templar nerfs?

ah not too many, they just changed to sorcs/wardens.

Aionna · April 2018

Chufu wrote: »

Thanks again to ZOS for having the orc there in London, he had a wonderful time!

Of course there is a lot stuff for you to read about Summerset, so as I am allowed to talk about, here are the news (I think most of them you already know right now, because today is the summerset-spreading-day )

Article from the orc in English

Article from the orc in German

Praise of Malacath to those who read the article to the very end.

This is from the thread PSA:Playtesters at ZOS, if you check the article in English this what it says about balance changes :

"balance changes
With Summerset there will be new skills (see above under "Psijic Order") introduced, so there are also some balance changes made by the developers in order to adapt the other skills in the game or to ensure that there are no overpowering skills. For more infos have a look at Alcast, Woeler, Shimmer or Ixtyr.

At a later point in the future, a class balance patch will be introduced, and the survivability of pets will be improved."

So I don't think we should get our hopes up that there will be some major update as far as Templars are concerned in this patch.

Mr_Nobody · April 2018

Aionna wrote: »

Chufu wrote: »

Thanks again to ZOS for having the orc there in London, he had a wonderful time!

Of course there is a lot stuff for you to read about Summerset, so as I am allowed to talk about, here are the news (I think most of them you already know right now, because today is the summerset-spreading-day )

Article from the orc in English

Article from the orc in German

Praise of Malacath to those who read the article to the very end.

This is from the thread PSA:Playtesters at ZOS, if you check the article in English this what it says about balance changes :

"balance changes
With Summerset there will be new skills (see above under "Psijic Order") introduced, so there are also some balance changes made by the developers in order to adapt the other skills in the game or to ensure that there are no overpowering skills. For more infos have a look at Alcast, Woeler, Shimmer or Ixtyr.

At a later point in the future, a class balance patch will be introduced, and the survivability of pets will be improved."

So I don't think we should get our hopes up that there will be some major update as far as Templars are concerned in this patch.

We shouldn't expect much balance changes either. The best we are going to get is that Ritual will no longer provide minor mending and that javelin has had its damage increased by 2%. Because that is going to buff us a ton.

aeowulf · April 2018

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Stam Morphs/Supplemental morphs:
DK:

Cinbri wrote: »

Is it only me feel weird that passive called Restoring Spirit is located in offensive tree instead of defensive tree called Restoring Light?

I think that's the passive that use to be the huge regen that nightblade/sorc eventually got. Interestingly the +weapon damage passive Balanced Warrior kinda got handed out like candy to Sorc and Warden as well. Nothing that made Templar unique is unique any more and Templar really hasn't been given anything to replace it in my view. I want Templar to feel like a warrior. Frankly I want it more DK-like in style. They're Knights just less evil looking.

NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0 (Executioner passive) about a year or so ago, right about when Repentance got the nerf hammer.

@danno8 & @dodgehopper_ESO

Re "NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0"

Where??? I missed that memo... Oh, and don't read the tooltip. My lowdown between the two skills (apologies if i missed something)

1)Both require a corpse, this is bad news in the first place. Corpse often means the fight's over. Not many bosses with a lot of adds, and it's these fights where resource management is more important.
2)Repentence requires 2 skill points & 1 slot vs executioner requiring 3-4 skill points and one slot (for the skill to proc it)
3)Repentence also provides regen assistance, but this sucks as I believe it's only active on one bar? (needs to be active all the time)
4)Executioner requires perfect timing in a 2 second window vs Repentence where you can choose when to harvest
5)Executioner requires a skill cast that COSTS MORE than it restores
6)Executioner <used> to have the same limitation of one person would get the resources, Repentence REALLY needs to have a 'if a corpse in x radius is repented, you also get the resources - and not require that one to be double barred.
7)Executioner requires a 'passive' slot

And here's the kicker:
8)When ZOS changed it a year ago they broke it, and it now DOES NOT RETURN RESOURCES if you land the killing blow, and landing those 45k+ executes is what stamblades do a lot of in the last 2 seconds of a fight... Chances of getting the killing blow is pretty high.

Both skills suck in their own ways, BUT NB get siphoning which is awesome, unless you play a tankblade where it is the least friendly skill ever. Could be resolved by also procing on taking damage (with cooldown).

My view is stamplar/tankplar/tankblade need help in sustain, as they are WAY out of line with other class/role combinations, except maybe magDK. Be it through revisiting (or fixing) current skills & passives. Repentence is kinda cool though - am scared it would loose that if touched by ZoS Things like regen boosts, don't help when blocking. ZoS don't see this, or at least don't appear to when it comes to balance.

My other view is Argonians, which have better sustain than most classes! Answer to stamplars/tankplars/tankblades should not be 'play an Argonian' to fix your sustain but it is, kinda

I'm not saying they cannot be played, but to do so requires a ton of experience, perfect gear, a boat load of CP and probably a specific racial choice. They are not viable for new players in the slightest.

Everyone needs to stop being selfish and look at the bigger picture. Look at who you group with & their class/role combos. Start shouting for the DK healers (and other class/roles combos) because you never see them in vet finder - this is a fairly good indication of what's good and what isn't. A group with only a templar healer, dk tank, a stamblade and mag sorc is ok, until it's the 6th one in a row - gets boring.

I never said that NB gets Repentance 2.0. My guess was that he was referring to the Mark skill or as you surmised the execute but at any regard that wasn't the point of my post regarding NB nor was it meant as a knock to NB. My 2nd highest achievement character is a nightblade and has always been a top favorite (I'm a huge argonian fan). I'm most definitely not anti-Nightblade. I also agree with your viewpoint that having more than one playstyle is exactly the point and what ZoS intended to offer us. Eventually I reckon they'll get there. Slow but sure I think they might be trying but things get frustrating at times. Back to my point that I think you were referring to I was merely saying that Stamplar feels like playing a Stamblade that can't cloak and probably doesn't have as good ultimates. My views on cloak (and now I'm getting off track so I'll keep this short) are murky. Cloak is a really fun skill and fantastic in PvE. I've seen it in pvp on multiple games now and it either causes the cloaking class to be so feeble as to be worthless or so powerful as to be godlike. I've rarely seen it hit a comfortable balance. I'm not saying it can't be done but I know its hard for developers.

no, it was @danno8 that mentioned it, specifically referring to the Executioner passive. You were tagged as you were quoted by danno8 and I was butting in to your conversation! I felt my comments were relevant to the conversation as a whole, rather than an individual.

Mixed views on cloak too - love it for pve quest grinding, but pvp... I don't really like how it works, and don't actually slot it on my NB in pvp - tend to fight to the death as I could never get it to work to escape anyway! My partner plays templar and we BG a fair bit these days (also why i don't slot cloak) She slots at least one Templar ulti, where i'm usually running dawnbreaker and ballista/barrier - both non class ulti's - a stamplar also has those. My choice though, harvest & tether are good options too.

I'd love for stamplars in particular to get some help. A very good RL mate (around 200cp) quit playing with Morrowind because of the changes that hit his kajiit stamblade Those changes did not attract anyone to ESO, but they certainly pushed people away - not the best business model

Lol how many people have left due to constant templar nerfs?

ah not too many, they just changed to sorcs/wardens.

Not just templar nerfs, any nerf. NB got nerfed every single patch for about 3 years in a row... People immediately assume only their class got nerfed, and that's the thing that makes them leave, either the game or their class. My friends list used to have a ton of NB tanks, and was populated mostly from ICP leeching farm runs. They didn't change class, they left post Morrowind.

I can only assume DK & Sorc were relatively unaffected, but I doubt that. Stamplars, Tankplars & Tankblades were decimated in one way or another, and a year later it's rare you see them in vet pug finder.

I don't want to change main, I have bonded with him. It's not the class or role, it's him, his race, his name, his achievements, the memories I have of events, like my first vMA completion. Swapping to a different toon is not the answer it's avoiding the problem.

If literally everyone on this forum banded together and shouted 'hey DK healers need help' (Have you EVER seen one in a vet dungeon??!?) then they would probably get help. But right now the place is too full of people complaining only about their class, and that they have 1% dps difference to a different class. Stamplars are in the same place as tankblades - they have a voice, but only because they were competitive. DK healers have no voice, because they never were.

There are bigger issues, like ALL the classes/role combos you don't see in finder - and that comes down to it's simply not fun to play those.

I hope the class reps can sort these underrepresented areas out. Your class (and others) is not fulfilling it's competitive potential, in the tanking and stamina DPS areas. Other classes are in a similar situation. I want ZoS to examine the stats for vet DLC completion re which classes are in which roles, and start targeting those that are under represented/under performing.

danno8 · April 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

You would trade Repentence for a passive that only procs when you cast a damaging assassinate ability, when Templars don't have that tree???!! and did you not see the bit about getting less resources back than it cost to proc?? wow (The NET resource gain of Repentence, <under some circumstances> can be positive. Executioner will always be negative)

C'mon man, you know that's not what I mean in my "trade" scenario. It sounds like you are being purposely simplistic. Obviously what I meant was Templars would get the passive but lose Repentance, and NB would lose the passive but receive Repentance. And that the passive would obviously work with one of the Templar skill lines, not be completely nonsensical by working with the NB skill line (like you comically suggest?).

In regards to the net gain, I have mainly PvP in mind where Grim Focus and Death Stroke are very common NB skills. I don't think most NB are slotting these skills just for the Executioner passive, but rather they slot them because they want to use them. In these cases the passive can only be seen as a bonus and any attempt to state that it is a net negative is just ridiculous.

aeowulf wrote: »

Point is, both skills are awful, and need reviewing. Repentence especially, because NB DPS/healers can use siphoning to decent effect, and the NB tank voice is small enough to ignore, to a point. (made up by passion I feel)

Can't argue this, especially if Executioner isn't working on killshots from Assassination abilities. Also think the window should be increased to 4 seconds, as 2 is a bit tight for my liking.

aeowulf · April 2018

danno8 wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

You would trade Repentence for a passive that only procs when you cast a damaging assassinate ability, when Templars don't have that tree???!! and did you not see the bit about getting less resources back than it cost to proc?? wow (The NET resource gain of Repentence, <under some circumstances> can be positive. Executioner will always be negative)

C'mon man, you know that's not what I mean in my "trade" scenario. It sounds like you are being purposely simplistic. Obviously what I meant was Templars would get the passive but lose Repentance, and NB would lose the passive but receive Repentance. And that the passive would obviously work with one of the Templar skill lines, not be completely nonsensical by working with the NB skill line (like you comically suggest?).

In regards to the net gain, I have mainly PvP in mind where Grim Focus and Death Stroke are very common NB skills. I don't think most NB are slotting these skills just for the Executioner passive, but rather they slot them because they want to use them. In these cases the passive can only be seen as a bonus and any attempt to state that it is a net negative is just ridiculous.

aeowulf wrote: »

Point is, both skills are awful, and need reviewing. Repentence especially, because NB DPS/healers can use siphoning to decent effect, and the NB tank voice is small enough to ignore, to a point. (made up by passion I feel)

Can't argue this, especially if Executioner isn't working on killshots from Assassination abilities. Also think the window should be increased to 4 seconds, as 2 is a bit tight for my liking.

Yeah OK, I concede, I did know what you meant by 'trade' and did oversimplify

But I guess it was to mainly point out it was not a simple swap.

You mention using it with Grim focus - but that spell does not 'do damage' until the proc at minimum once every 5 seconds. At that point in a fight, an NB will be probably using either killers blade or steel tornado. Lots of mobs still alive = tornado = no proc when proc would be useful vs last mob = killers blade = proc when fight's over and it's not useful. Death Stroke yes, viable - but it is an ulti, and slotted for the passives and enhanced ulti-gen usually. I PVE more than PVP if you hadn't gathered. Do love BG's though, even if I do suck

Both terrible, both need revisiting. Next trial I do, use my regular playstyle & measure how many times executioner procs. It won't be many

At the end of the day, if Executioner was a skill, I would not slot it, but I have Siphoning. If I didn't - closer call, probably still not slot it.

Back to Repentence though, biggest issue is it's the only resource tool a stamina using templar gets, and on top of that it's shared

All passives are nice 'bonuses' and worth buying no matter, due to the over abundance of skill points. But look at some sustain passives - help hands half the resources, whenever you cast a spell from a tree. natures gift - 250/s, combined with 150/s netch. Sorc & NB get good % returns too. Templar get minor magicka steal which is great, but where's the stamina sustain I ask ??? not comparable to any other class in the slightest

I will stop visiting this thread, I feel like i'm de-railing and I don't want to. It's very valid. Templars need reform, but I feel all classes do in their own ways.

Minno · April 2018

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Aionna wrote: »

Chufu wrote: »

Thanks again to ZOS for having the orc there in London, he had a wonderful time!

Of course there is a lot stuff for you to read about Summerset, so as I am allowed to talk about, here are the news (I think most of them you already know right now, because today is the summerset-spreading-day )

Article from the orc in English

Article from the orc in German

Praise of Malacath to those who read the article to the very end.

This is from the thread PSA:Playtesters at ZOS, if you check the article in English this what it says about balance changes :

"balance changes
With Summerset there will be new skills (see above under "Psijic Order") introduced, so there are also some balance changes made by the developers in order to adapt the other skills in the game or to ensure that there are no overpowering skills. For more infos have a look at Alcast, Woeler, Shimmer or Ixtyr.

At a later point in the future, a class balance patch will be introduced, and the survivability of pets will be improved."

So I don't think we should get our hopes up that there will be some major update as far as Templars are concerned in this patch.

We shouldn't expect much balance changes either. The best we are going to get is that Ritual will no longer provide minor mending and that javelin has had its damage increased by 2%. Because that is going to buff us a ton.

I think what they mean by class balance, they mean the finally push to consolidate the class kits to make them friendlier for spell crafting. So final solidification of the tri-role trees, nerfs/buffs on all abilities so they are relatively equal, and spearheading the spell crafting changes.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Stam Morphs/Supplemental morphs:
DK:

Cinbri wrote: »

Is it only me feel weird that passive called Restoring Spirit is located in offensive tree instead of defensive tree called Restoring Light?

I think that's the passive that use to be the huge regen that nightblade/sorc eventually got. Interestingly the +weapon damage passive Balanced Warrior kinda got handed out like candy to Sorc and Warden as well. Nothing that made Templar unique is unique any more and Templar really hasn't been given anything to replace it in my view. I want Templar to feel like a warrior. Frankly I want it more DK-like in style. They're Knights just less evil looking.

NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0 (Executioner passive) about a year or so ago, right about when Repentance got the nerf hammer.

@danno8 & @dodgehopper_ESO

Re "NB's also got Super Repentance 2.0"

Where??? I missed that memo... Oh, and don't read the tooltip. My lowdown between the two skills (apologies if i missed something)

1)Both require a corpse, this is bad news in the first place. Corpse often means the fight's over. Not many bosses with a lot of adds, and it's these fights where resource management is more important.
2)Repentence requires 2 skill points & 1 slot vs executioner requiring 3-4 skill points and one slot (for the skill to proc it)
3)Repentence also provides regen assistance, but this sucks as I believe it's only active on one bar? (needs to be active all the time)
4)Executioner requires perfect timing in a 2 second window vs Repentence where you can choose when to harvest
5)Executioner requires a skill cast that COSTS MORE than it restores
6)Executioner <used> to have the same limitation of one person would get the resources, Repentence REALLY needs to have a 'if a corpse in x radius is repented, you also get the resources - and not require that one to be double barred.
7)Executioner requires a 'passive' slot

And here's the kicker:
8)When ZOS changed it a year ago they broke it, and it now DOES NOT RETURN RESOURCES if you land the killing blow, and landing those 45k+ executes is what stamblades do a lot of in the last 2 seconds of a fight... Chances of getting the killing blow is pretty high.

Both skills suck in their own ways, BUT NB get siphoning which is awesome, unless you play a tankblade where it is the least friendly skill ever. Could be resolved by also procing on taking damage (with cooldown).

My view is stamplar/tankplar/tankblade need help in sustain, as they are WAY out of line with other class/role combinations, except maybe magDK. Be it through revisiting (or fixing) current skills & passives. Repentence is kinda cool though - am scared it would loose that if touched by ZoS Things like regen boosts, don't help when blocking. ZoS don't see this, or at least don't appear to when it comes to balance.

My other view is Argonians, which have better sustain than most classes! Answer to stamplars/tankplars/tankblades should not be 'play an Argonian' to fix your sustain but it is, kinda

I'm not saying they cannot be played, but to do so requires a ton of experience, perfect gear, a boat load of CP and probably a specific racial choice. They are not viable for new players in the slightest.

Everyone needs to stop being selfish and look at the bigger picture. Look at who you group with & their class/role combos. Start shouting for the DK healers (and other class/roles combos) because you never see them in vet finder - this is a fairly good indication of what's good and what isn't. A group with only a templar healer, dk tank, a stamblade and mag sorc is ok, until it's the 6th one in a row - gets boring.

I never said that NB gets Repentance 2.0. My guess was that he was referring to the Mark skill or as you surmised the execute but at any regard that wasn't the point of my post regarding NB nor was it meant as a knock to NB. My 2nd highest achievement character is a nightblade and has always been a top favorite (I'm a huge argonian fan). I'm most definitely not anti-Nightblade. I also agree with your viewpoint that having more than one playstyle is exactly the point and what ZoS intended to offer us. Eventually I reckon they'll get there. Slow but sure I think they might be trying but things get frustrating at times. Back to my point that I think you were referring to I was merely saying that Stamplar feels like playing a Stamblade that can't cloak and probably doesn't have as good ultimates. My views on cloak (and now I'm getting off track so I'll keep this short) are murky. Cloak is a really fun skill and fantastic in PvE. I've seen it in pvp on multiple games now and it either causes the cloaking class to be so feeble as to be worthless or so powerful as to be godlike. I've rarely seen it hit a comfortable balance. I'm not saying it can't be done but I know its hard for developers.

no, it was @danno8 that mentioned it, specifically referring to the Executioner passive. You were tagged as you were quoted by danno8 and I was butting in to your conversation! I felt my comments were relevant to the conversation as a whole, rather than an individual.

Mixed views on cloak too - love it for pve quest grinding, but pvp... I don't really like how it works, and don't actually slot it on my NB in pvp - tend to fight to the death as I could never get it to work to escape anyway! My partner plays templar and we BG a fair bit these days (also why i don't slot cloak) She slots at least one Templar ulti, where i'm usually running dawnbreaker and ballista/barrier - both non class ulti's - a stamplar also has those. My choice though, harvest & tether are good options too.

I'd love for stamplars in particular to get some help. A very good RL mate (around 200cp) quit playing with Morrowind because of the changes that hit his kajiit stamblade Those changes did not attract anyone to ESO, but they certainly pushed people away - not the best business model

Lol how many people have left due to constant templar nerfs?

ah not too many, they just changed to sorcs/wardens.

Not just templar nerfs, any nerf. NB got nerfed every single patch for about 3 years in a row... People immediately assume only their class got nerfed, and that's the thing that makes them leave, either the game or their class. My friends list used to have a ton of NB tanks, and was populated mostly from ICP leeching farm runs. They didn't change class, they left post Morrowind.

I can only assume DK & Sorc were relatively unaffected, but I doubt that. Stamplars, Tankplars & Tankblades were decimated in one way or another, and a year later it's rare you see them in vet pug finder.

I don't want to change main, I have bonded with him. It's not the class or role, it's him, his race, his name, his achievements, the memories I have of events, like my first vMA completion. Swapping to a different toon is not the answer it's avoiding the problem.

If literally everyone on this forum banded together and shouted 'hey DK healers need help' (Have you EVER seen one in a vet dungeon??!?) then they would probably get help. But right now the place is too full of people complaining only about their class, and that they have 1% dps difference to a different class. Stamplars are in the same place as tankblades - they have a voice, but only because they were competitive. DK healers have no voice, because they never were.

There are bigger issues, like ALL the classes/role combos you don't see in finder - and that comes down to it's simply not fun to play those.

I hope the class reps can sort these underrepresented areas out. Your class (and others) is not fulfilling it's competitive potential, in the tanking and stamina DPS areas. Other classes are in a similar situation. I want ZoS to examine the stats for vet DLC completion re which classes are in which roles, and start targeting those that are under represented/under performing.

I have to admit my NB Tank's shield has been collecting dust. I still like to use him for heists and whatnot though but I don't use him for pvp much lately and certainly don't use him in a Trial/Dungeon scenario. At this point I'm waiting until Summerset to rethink his build and I've been considering going a more DD route or giving a shot at the new Tanker Cloak and seeing how I like that.

danno8 · April 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

I will stop visiting this thread, I feel like i'm de-railing and I don't want to. It's very valid. Templars need reform, but I feel all classes do in their own ways.

@aeowulf Comparing classes can be dangerous at times but it can also help identify skills that work well and should be molded after, and skills that just plain don't work.

Thanks for the conversation. Don't feel like you have to make yourself scarce here, Templars on the forums are, for some reason, articulate and respectful for the most part and seem to enjoy a good debate without much drama. The number of thoughtful threads (including this one) seems to par for the course.

Joy_Division · April 2018

Aionna wrote: »

Chufu wrote: »

Thanks again to ZOS for having the orc there in London, he had a wonderful time!

Of course there is a lot stuff for you to read about Summerset, so as I am allowed to talk about, here are the news (I think most of them you already know right now, because today is the summerset-spreading-day )

Article from the orc in English

Article from the orc in German

Praise of Malacath to those who read the article to the very end.

This is from the thread PSA:Playtesters at ZOS, if you check the article in English this what it says about balance changes :

"balance changes
With Summerset there will be new skills (see above under "Psijic Order") introduced, so there are also some balance changes made by the developers in order to adapt the other skills in the game or to ensure that there are no overpowering skills. For more infos have a look at Alcast, Woeler, Shimmer or Ixtyr.

At a later point in the future, a class balance patch will be introduced, and the survivability of pets will be improved."

So I don't think we should get our hopes up that there will be some major update as far as Templars are concerned in this patch.

Oh, no. Don't even try to sell me on a "class balance" patch. I've been told the past two years there will be a "class balance" patch and nothing resembling one has been delivered. What has happened is that there have been barely perceptible class tweaks: like "Mending: This passive ability now increases the healing done by Restoring Light abilities by 6/12% based on the target’s missing health, up from 5/10%..'

Ever since the Blazing Spear nerf, templars have played and been pretty much the same, with the exception of the Eclipse change and Sweeps damage bug. Zos has not done anything remotely resembling a class balance patch since way way way back in Orsinium or was it Thieve's Guild.

Mr_Nobody · April 2018

@Joy_Division _Division @Cinbri

Can we also bump some BUG threads so they fix:

1) no AP gains from cleanse heals on allies
2) no AP gains from PL heals on allies

Kind of sad how the Zos's so pro-called healing class aint even getting AP for their heals huh.

Cinbri · April 2018

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

@Joy_Division _Division @Cinbri

Can we also bump some BUG threads so they fix:

1) no AP gains from cleanse heals on allies
2) no AP gains from PL heals on allies

Kind of sad how the Zos's so pro-called healing class aint even getting AP for their heals huh.

We dont even know if it bug or intended. Prbobably there is bug coz interesting mechanc -initial heal on cast of Ritual of Retribution grant ap. You can activate ap gains addon, run to friendly zerg battle, spam it and enjoy fountain of ap gains numbers. While Extended Ritual don't grant ap on initial heal.

Checkmath · April 2018

Does somebody actually know what about healing grants some AP. There where enough situations, where you heal somebofy twice, but only the first healing gives AP. Maybe there is a healing ap gain cooldown per friendly player?

Drdeath20 · April 2018

Yeah, ive casted praticed incatnation numerous times in big group battles and the AP results vary. Sometimes i recieve a decent amount of AP while other times i recieve no AP at all. In both situations ,i can see my ultimate healing multiple characters, multiple times.

Yamakaziing · April 2018

They’ve been trying their hardest to keep templars from making too much of a difference. The raids hate certain Templar players. Give us disorienting spear back or a root please.

aeowulf · April 2018

danno8 wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

I will stop visiting this thread, I feel like i'm de-railing and I don't want to. It's very valid. Templars need reform, but I feel all classes do in their own ways.

@aeowulf Comparing classes can be dangerous at times but it can also help identify skills that work well and should be molded after, and skills that just plain don't work.

Thanks for the conversation. Don't feel like you have to make yourself scarce here, Templars on the forums are, for some reason, articulate and respectful for the most part and seem to enjoy a good debate without much drama. The number of thoughtful threads (including this one) seems to par for the course.

I actually hit the comparison wall shortly after Morrowind, and that was just looking at it from a sustain perspective. It's borderline impossible. You have some classes which get a % amp, so the sets they choose have an impact, as does race, and then there is armour weight, and role/playstyle, and how effecient you are in it. There is too much variety. and that's just sustain where each class gets a couple of skills/passives. Balancing other areas would be WAY worse

It's no wonder some class/role combos get left in a non-competitive state. @Joy_division has created a masterpiece with this thread, and the first 6 words sum it up. Every class needs a thread <like this>. There are very few people who can cover all roles in their class, most pidgeon-hole themselves into one area, be it pvp, dps healing or tanking. They can't talk about balance from only one side of the scale, i'm lacking in NB healing knowledge - never tried it (gf is a templar healer so would be stepping on her toes...) But I do know they are underrepresented in vet pug finder. Balance comes in to play & you cannot just look at stats. Malevolent Offering requires manual targetting for example. Not easy when there are 11 people running round you in a trial and you are trying to target one of them. On paper it might look great though - it's a 'magicka free' heal. Can't beat the efficiency, or compare it to the efficiency of a magicka heal, but then it can get you killed, which is not efficient in he slightest.

I do love ESO, i just want the non-competitive roles to be better balanced. I don't really care about a 1 or 2% dps difference, but I do care about the class-roles I never see. Stamplar, tanklplar, tankblade, DK healer and to a lesser degree NB & sorc healer, sorc tank. That's nearly half the class-roles that are generally missing in tough content.

ESO will get boring if this carries on, then I will play something else and I don't want to

I like it here.

Destyran · April 2018

This needs more attention

tinythinker · April 2018

Wow, didn't realize this thread had kept going. No way I can catch up. Sorry if I write something redundant.

I don't like to "bash the devs", because we aren't there when they are having meetings and doing their daily work, but do Templar as a case study strike anyone else that there may be an incomplete or inconsistent vision in what combat is supposed to be in ESO or how the elements (ground DoTs, sticky/curse DoTs, beam DoTs, gap-closers, etc.) work together effectively? It's like different models or aspirations in conflict with each other. And if not, it would be nice to have combat devs do a stream or vid using their preferred combos explaining how they see the pieces working together.

One small idea to toss out as well:

For the DoT-heavy classes, it would be nice if curse/sticky DoTs did half the damage remaining for their ticks if the DoT is purged. So a target could take half-damage as burst or deal with less damage at once over a longer period. Would also make siege much more interesting in Cyro

Mr_Nobody · April 2018

tinythinker wrote: »

Wow, didn't realize this thread had kept going. No way I can catch up. Sorry if I write something redundant.

I don't like to "bash the devs", because we aren't there when they are having meetings and doing their daily work, but do Templar as a case study strike anyone else that there may be an incomplete or inconsistent vision in what combat is supposed to be in ESO or how the elements (ground DoTs, sticky/curse DoTs, beam DoTs, gap-closers, etc.) work together effectively? It's like different models or aspirations in conflict with each other. And if not, it would be nice to have combat devs do a stream or vid using their preferred combos explaining how they see the pieces working together.

One small idea to toss out as well:

For the DoT-heavy classes, it would be nice if curse/sticky DoTs did half the damage remaining for their ticks if the DoT is purged. So a target could take half-damage as burst or deal with less damage at once over a longer period. Would also make siege much more interesting in Cyro

Great ideas but remember that siege, dots and cc against groups dont work because... Purge.

Spammable superior aoe cleanse. Dont try even try to defend it. Every group has at least 3 of these. One charging through doors looks like an xmas tree blinging every 0.3 seconds.

Checkmath · April 2018

Also remind that there are skills, that go off directly if you want to remove with cleanse.

Anyway did we already get any informations about the class representatives. Or do we have to wait another month till our voices get heared by the devs?

technohic · April 2018

My stamplars not even using any spear abilities any more. Thought about slotting something just for the passives, but I really havent missed it. Maybe I can put DBOS on the back bar and run crescent on front bar, but Im giving up some WD for it.

DoctorESO · April 2018

OCEANS RISE
CITIES FALL

THE TEMPLAR REMAINS

Thank you. Joy_Division!

tinythinker · April 2018

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Wow, didn't realize this thread had kept going. No way I can catch up. Sorry if I write something redundant.

I don't like to "bash the devs", because we aren't there when they are having meetings and doing their daily work, but do Templar as a case study strike anyone else that there may be an incomplete or inconsistent vision in what combat is supposed to be in ESO or how the elements (ground DoTs, sticky/curse DoTs, beam DoTs, gap-closers, etc.) work together effectively? It's like different models or aspirations in conflict with each other. And if not, it would be nice to have combat devs do a stream or vid using their preferred combos explaining how they see the pieces working together.

One small idea to toss out as well:

For the DoT-heavy classes, it would be nice if curse/sticky DoTs did half the damage remaining for their ticks if the DoT is purged. So a target could take half-damage as burst or deal with less damage at once over a longer period. Would also make siege much more interesting in Cyro

Great ideas but remember that siege, dots and cc against groups dont work because... Purge.

Spammable superior aoe cleanse. Dont try even try to defend it. Every group has at least 3 of these. One charging through doors looks like an xmas tree blinging every 0.3 seconds.

But that's the point. I hit you with two sticky DoTs --> you or an ally hits Purge as soon as I do --> you immediately take half of the full damage you would have taken if the DoT had run its full course as an instant burst. If you get four sticky DoTs on you and Cleanse, you just took 50% of the full damage value of all four DoTs. This just becomes base combat functionality for all sticky DoTs.

Cinbri · April 2018

tinythinker wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Wow, didn't realize this thread had kept going. No way I can catch up. Sorry if I write something redundant.

I don't like to "bash the devs", because we aren't there when they are having meetings and doing their daily work, but do Templar as a case study strike anyone else that there may be an incomplete or inconsistent vision in what combat is supposed to be in ESO or how the elements (ground DoTs, sticky/curse DoTs, beam DoTs, gap-closers, etc.) work together effectively? It's like different models or aspirations in conflict with each other. And if not, it would be nice to have combat devs do a stream or vid using their preferred combos explaining how they see the pieces working together.

One small idea to toss out as well:

For the DoT-heavy classes, it would be nice if curse/sticky DoTs did half the damage remaining for their ticks if the DoT is purged. So a target could take half-damage as burst or deal with less damage at once over a longer period. Would also make siege much more interesting in Cyro

Great ideas but remember that siege, dots and cc against groups dont work because... Purge.

Spammable superior aoe cleanse. Dont try even try to defend it. Every group has at least 3 of these. One charging through doors looks like an xmas tree blinging every 0.3 seconds.

But that's the point. I hit you with two sticky DoTs --> you or an ally hits Purge as soon as I do --> you immediately take half of the full damage you would have taken if the DoT had run its full course as an instant burst. If you get four sticky DoTs on you and Cleanse, you just took 50% of the full damage value of all four DoTs. This just becomes base combat functionality for all sticky DoTs.

As was said on last eso live - sieges will be as ground suppressing aoe now, so effectiveness of purge vs sieges will decrease a lot.