Templars need reform because the game has changed

Cinbri · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. And here is Remembrance which lost its aoe major protection in trade of 6sec more of it for caster. And yet didnt get rid of its disable.

You can block cancel the ulti and still get the major protection.

It means you can waste 120ult for 10sec of major protection, zero healing, zero seconds of CC immunity and no longer proc Sacred Ground and Lightweaver. I.e. loose reasons to use ult.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. And here is Remembrance which lost its aoe major protection in trade of 6sec more of it for caster. And yet didnt get rid of its disable.

You can block cancel the ulti and still get the major protection.

It means you can waste 120ult for 10sec of major protection, zero healing, zero seconds of CC immunity and no longer proc Sacred Ground and Lightweaver. I.e. loose reasons to use ult.

did i say any of that would not happen? the guy implied that you cant move for 4 seconds, you can. and you still get the major protection.

Cinbri · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. And here is Remembrance which lost its aoe major protection in trade of 6sec more of it for caster. And yet didnt get rid of its disable.

You can block cancel the ulti and still get the major protection.

It means you can waste 120ult for 10sec of major protection, zero healing, zero seconds of CC immunity and no longer proc Sacred Ground and Lightweaver. I.e. loose reasons to use ult.

did i say any of that would not happen? the guy implied that you cant move for 4 seconds, you can. and you still get the major protection.

Well it was my quote. I meant situation when back prenerf it waz 4sec protection for every ally inside 20m and caster, and after nerf it became only 6more sec for caster only. So it changed to be self-oriented morph but starting to fail in usability.
You can have mobility and protection but what the point of it, coz if you bloccast cancel it - you removings reasons to use this ultimate in first place. With much bigger profit you can just use Empowering Sweep, not being disabled and get aoe damage, aoe dot, skill slot to proc aedric spear passives and 15-39% damage mitigation that can be stacked further with major protection for example of pirate skeleton.
While cancelling Remembrance you indeed can move and get protection, but yet loose featurez you wanted to use this ult for. Its fat hole in concept of Remembrance when for staying alive you have to cancel defensive ult.
While nb will have Soul Siphon that heal more, dont disable mobility of caster, grant major defensive buff, synnergy and radius of 28! meters.

Minno · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. And here is Remembrance which lost its aoe major protection in trade of 6sec more of it for caster. And yet didnt get rid of its disable.

You can block cancel the ulti and still get the major protection.

It means you can waste 120ult for 10sec of major protection, zero healing, zero seconds of CC immunity and no longer proc Sacred Ground and Lightweaver. I.e. loose reasons to use ult.

did i say any of that would not happen? the guy implied that you cant move for 4 seconds, you can. and you still get the major protection.

Yea but you are both right. While it can be block casted, you lose all functionality of the ultimate. Compared to resto ultimate, this ability sucks.

That's my pain point for templars, our abilities and passives haven't been updated as the game changed. So there are now better versions of the templar kit elsewhere especially where all classes have access to it.

My other pain point is that we need to get buffs via abilities due to our need for speed pots. That means our rotations are longer, lasted on top of an already long/clunky rotation involving casting proofing light every 6 seconds. This alone is the sole reason for Templar mains dropping their class in favor of NB/sorc in PvP.

Joy_Division · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. And here is Remembrance which lost its aoe major protection in trade of 6sec more of it for caster. And yet didnt get rid of its disable.

You can block cancel the ulti and still get the major protection.

OK hold up. The very idea that people could even contemplate that it might be favorable to actually cancel an ULTIMATE is a huge indictment of how terrible the choices are.

When was the last time a NB said, "Hey, I wish I could cancel Incap to boost my damage by 20%! OMG ZOS make it happen!"

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. And here is Remembrance which lost its aoe major protection in trade of 6sec more of it for caster. And yet didnt get rid of its disable.

You can block cancel the ulti and still get the major protection.

OK hold up. The very idea that people could even contemplate that it might be favorable to actually cancel an ULTIMATE is a huge indictment of how terrible the choices are.

When was the last time a NB said, "Hey, I wish I could cancel Incap to boost my damage by 20%! OMG ZOS make it happen!"

i didnt say it was "favorable", i simply stated the truth.

@Cinbri
Well it was my quote.

well, your grammar was much better in the post so i couldn't tell it was you but i certainly did not have that trouble in the last post you made.

to be clear, the reason that the aoe 22% group mitigation from remembrance was removed was because of the fact people would have stacked that with the aoe major protection of the wardens ulti and become "unkillable" in pvp. yet another pvp nerf to the class i main. a nerf in a long line of tons, most of which are elegantly layed out in this very thread. i dont pvp, any more then i have to to get the skills i need, vigor and warhorn for my tanks and barrier for my healers, so it is really frustrating to me as a pve main player to see the class i started with get nerf after nerf because of something that means nothing to me.

also not sure why people jumped on my behind when i simply stated fact.

Cinbri · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. And here is Remembrance which lost its aoe major protection in trade of 6sec more of it for caster. And yet didnt get rid of its disable.

You can block cancel the ulti and still get the major protection.

OK hold up. The very idea that people could even contemplate that it might be favorable to actually cancel an ULTIMATE is a huge indictment of how terrible the choices are.

When was the last time a NB said, "Hey, I wish I could cancel Incap to boost my damage by 20%! OMG ZOS make it happen!"

i didnt say it was "favorable", i simply stated the truth.

@Cinbri
Well it was my quote.

well, your grammar was much better in the post so i couldn't tell it was you but i certainly did not have that trouble in the last post you made.

to be clear, the reason that the aoe 22% group mitigation from remembrance was removed was because of the fact people would have stacked that with the aoe major protection of the wardens ulti and become "unkillable" in pvp. yet another pvp nerf to the class i main. a nerf in a long line of tons, most of which are elegantly layed out in this very thread. i dont pvp, any more then i have to to get the skills i need, vigor and warhorn for my tanks and barrier for my healers, so it is really frustrating to me as a pve main player to see the class i started with get nerf after nerf because of something that means nothing to me.

also not sure why people jumped on my behind when i simply stated fact.

Well, it indeed nerf was caused by pvp, but every nerf nowdays is coz pvp and this one nerf also led to problem that morph lost it identity and in its current form while ult is mostly pvp-based nowdays - it fit utterly terrible in pvp and pointless in pve.

Checkmath · April 2018

remembrance still saves a lot of lifes in group and zergs....so its still a very important skill.

Minno · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

remembrance still saves a lot of lifes in group and zergs....so its still a very important skill.

While true, that shouldn't be a reason to stop yearning for improvements on abilities in a game that is shifting towards a more mobile fluid game.

For example at launch, everyone was light attacking ninjas whose sustain was hampered by soft caps and clear balance limits like blazing shield turning off your mag Regen while the shirld was on. But now soft caps are gone, nightblades can move around via shade which ignores stamina costs, CP inflated cost/sustain so much that they had to double nerf CP and class sustain options, etc.

We have a very dynamic game that feels much more differently than launch. That is enough a reason to force zos to look into the "house" Templar meta as a relic of the past. If anything, Templar should be a fast moving monk in the new game; hybrid friendly, melee oriented, but big support and solo centric abilities that can boost groups and give tools to be that solo player looking for fights. Right now we have this slow knight that either heals or has to use stamina to use a two hander to be that brawler knight; which that knight already exists in the dragon knight but much more effective.

We need the fast but defensive Templar!

WreckfulAbandon · April 2018

Jabs losing a lot of its dmg overnight was a real pain point for me, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the dmg loss was well over the 5% they're going to "buff" us with

Joy_Division · April 2018

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Jabs losing a lot of its dmg overnight was a real pain point for me, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the dmg loss was well over the 5% they're going to "buff" us with

It is. I don't even slot Sweeps anymore in Cyrodiil. Bad enough it can hardly hit anything that moves, now it hits like a wet noodle.

Cinbri · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

remembrance still saves a lot of lifes in group and zergs....so its still a very important skill.

Ye, but Practiced Incantation saves even more since it is 50% more healing for group.

Checkmath · April 2018

i didnt say its a good ultimate, i just stated, that it is a crucial skill for group pvp. surely improvement is needed there, since a left behind healer, because he used remembrance or incantation, only has the choice to use mistform to catch up to the mobile ballgroup. in a zerg it actually doesn matter, but mostly its a death sentence to save your group by using this ultimate. but shouldnt exactly those groups also have weak points?

JinMori · April 2018

This was a beautiful post.

And the problem is not just templars, all classes got more boring after morrowind, they took away the uniqueness of the class and replaced it with homogenization, orbs and shards do the same thing, battle roar is now a flat amount of resources, repentance got destroyed, nb iconic sustain was overnerfed (all sustain got overnerfed in general, way waaaay to much).

The morrowind patch was a stain in the game history, and most of the changes should be reverted, or at least toned back, i havesn't been able to play this game for more then a year for it, because it was just so boring for me to sit there and use that heavy attack every 10 seconds.

Remember when you used shards for stamina sustain and orbs for magicka? Where is the flavor gone?

Tobironic · April 2018

tplink3r1 wrote: »

As Stamplar, the only major problems i have are the ridiculously low duration of the Rune Focus and the terrible ultimates when it comes to PvP.

And sustain, it's really bad!

Mr_Nobody · April 2018

Lul Sweeps. I ran around with force pulse yesterday and had a blast. There you go templars! Pretend to be sorcs and you may have some fun!

Perwulf · April 2018

You know what templar needs? An actual physical spear weapon! Give it to us and we templars shall conquer nirn.

Zinaroth · April 2018

sandelius wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

As Stamplar, the only major problems i have are the ridiculously low duration of the Rune Focus and the terrible ultimates when it comes to PvP.

And sustain, it's really bad!

Sustain is the biggest problem on my Stamplar atm. - all of the other glaring issues which has already been touched upon myself and many people in this thread over the last couple of years just add salt and vinegar to the already gaping wound.

Having the biggest ESO streamer at the moment stating that Stamplars are in fact super strong and almost on par with Stamwardens (excelling both Stamblades and Stamsorcs) along with being the easiest spec to play, but refusing to try one out, doesn't help the cause either. Luckily I don't think ZOS actually pays attention to these statements as a pointer for class balance and see them for what they are; class bias.

@Cinbri and @Joy_Division does a really good job at representing the class, eventhough I have had my disagreements with both over the years, and manage to cover some of the fundamental flaws with Stamplars. Both are approaching the class from a heavy magicka-oriented viewpoint though and I do hope that ZOS gets a hold of a more experienced and knowledgeable Stamplar player for their class representative program who can touch upon some of the problems further.

I used to work together with Alcast on this and Wrobel even approached us directly for feedback - but he did not actually pay attention to the feedback that was given at the time eventhough it was very concrete and very nuanced/balanced seeing as Alcast has a big understanding of the meta given that he plays almost all specs (back then in PvP too).

Myself I am just way too biased about my opinions on Stamplar, I will openly admit that, and over the past year I have grown out of touch with the meta due to RL obligations - but I really hope Stamplars will get well represented in the future.

This is by no means criticism of @Joy_Division and @Cinbri!
You're both doing an amazing job and I respect you for pouring so much time and effort into the cause and staying optimistic about it - I honestly gave up a long time ago but hopefully the class representative program will finally do something for us Templars in PvP with a focus on both Stamplars and Magplars alike instead of sweeping class changes that often end up being aimed at magicka with a disregard of the effects they have on Stamplars (like the removal of Major Mending or the lack of a stamina morph of the class heal in the light of Wardens getting that treatment).

danno8 · April 2018

Something else that just occurred to me.

RD is about to get even suckier with SI. Since Light Attacks are going to become much stronger than now, the inability to weave them into our execute rotation due to the channel is going to be a strong relative nerf to Templar compared to other classes.

In fact it may be so bad that RD gets dropped altogether, if Light Attacks become as strong as I have heard.

LordSlif · April 2018

ults

technohic · April 2018

Jabs and sweeps are more than 5% pathetic right now. Been switching back and forth between magicka and stam this weekend, and wound up just going stam and practicing landing dizzying swing. Seems so much better.

Minno · April 2018

technohic wrote: »

Jabs and sweeps are more than 5% pathetic right now. Been switching back and forth between magicka and stam this weekend, and wound up just going stam and practicing landing dizzying swing. Seems so much better.

Just so we can get a freakshow going, here's a cannibal 1v1 vid between 2 magplars! Just look at those sexy turtle sweeps!

https://youtu.be/YE6y3Z-GfAc

Checkmath · April 2018

do you block with magicka?

Minno · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

do you block with magicka?

Yes, but I try not to overdo it. Sometimes I yolo away and forget I'm on my staff bar.

Checkmath · April 2018

i assumed so, since your stamina pool is actually overflowing while you pretty much were at the limits of your magicka sustain. ok, the enmy templar cleanse ele drain away, still its a big disadvantage.

Minno · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

i assumed so, since your stamina pool is actually overflowing while you pretty much were at the limits of your magicka sustain. ok, the enmy templar cleanse ele drain away, still its a big disadvantage.

I would have won had I not yolo'd on that last burst with his total dark on me. Most of the time in PVP my mag isnt draining that fast, unless a cost poison is involved (I can comfortably regen just enough.) Flipside, I burned his stamina equally as fast lol.

I think my jabs were hitting for 1200? Still terrible since that's after the 120% extra dmg is added.

technohic · April 2018

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

i assumed so, since your stamina pool is actually overflowing while you pretty much were at the limits of your magicka sustain. ok, the enmy templar cleanse ele drain away, still its a big disadvantage.

I would have won had I not yolo'd on that last burst with his total dark on me. Most of the time in PVP my mag isnt draining that fast, unless a cost poison is involved (I can comfortably regen just enough.) Flipside, I burned his stamina equally as fast lol.

I think my jabs were hitting for 1200? Still terrible since that's after the 120% extra dmg is added.

Watching on my phone but I don’t see defile from wizards being applied after every cleanse When that happens, you might as well just not hit them.

Checkmath · April 2018

defile? wizards riposte? guys big news, wizards got buffed and additionally also applies major defile, not only minor maim :P

technohic · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

defile? wizards riposte? guys big news, wizards got buffed and additionally also applies major defile, not only minor maim :P

Whaat?

Lol. Whoops! Maim defile. I keep getting them mixed up

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

remembrance still saves a lot of lifes in group and zergs....so its still a very important skill.

Warden Trees are what Remembrance wishes it could be.