Make Racials Into Archetype

Recremen · April 2018

@TheShadowScout

TheShadowScout wrote: »

But you are trying to proclaim there are no differences and every single person should be able to cherry-pick their passives as they wish regardless of race.
Sorry, that's not how it works.
That's not how any of this works.

Poorly-executed memes don't make your discourse better, just fyi. Additionally, you're still strawmanning. I never mentioned anything about cherry-picking passives. If the current set of racials are balanced then all we need do is let people pick from the current set.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Well, what do you think makes races different if not their genes?
You think that only happened when science advanced enough for people to figure it out?
...
Admittedly, in a magical world, there may be more to it then just genetics. Mystic whatevers in their blood... or the composition of their souls... or various other things I guess.

I didn't say that genetics wouldn't logically play a role, but you are talking about something that has no backing in the lore. Even Notes On Racial Phylogeny and Biology makes no mention of genetics. The only mention of genes at all (to my knowledge and ability to find) comes from The House of Troubles, and even that may simply be a modern phrase that the editors missed. So how can you say that these differences are legitimately genetic and not cultural averages when there is nothing in the lore to support the claim? You are making assumptions without the proper backing and passing it off as fact.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that some races are good at some things and other races are good at other things - by decree of the loremakers who wanted races to be -different- in their game universe, and thus assigned each race some racial predispositions when they first wrote the lore.
That is undenyable, no matter how hard you try to deny it.

It is entirely deniable, that's the whole crux of my argument. Show me in the lore where there is undeniable in-universe-factual evidence supporting the idea that some races are automatically better at certain activities. If you really want to bring what devs have said into the equation though might I point you to this quote by Michael Kirkbride, who was one of the big names behind Morrowind. (from this thread)

I'd like to also point out (again) that I would strongly, strongly remove "Race" from any kind of character selection menu in a videogame or a tabletop game and replace it with "Culture" based on region. So: Elinhir Bretons, Satakal Jiit Nomads, No-Tambu Yoku, etc. would be part of the Hammerfell culture. There would be no "bell curve Redguard" unless you, the player, decided that

He goes on like that in several comments.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

So you are saying, if someone has a genetic disposition for strength yet never ever lifts a single finger to build up some muscle, they will be stronger as someone who has no such disposition but trains all the time?
I call BS on that!
Yes, they would be stronger then a similarly couch potato-ish person without the genetic advantage, but I am guessing that would not mean all that much compared to someone who actually used their muscles in their life.

No, not what I'm saying. It is more like what you are saying in the second part of this quoted section. And I agree, it won't mean much at all if someone isn't using it. But lo and behold, these two real-life individuals belong to the same (human) race and their behavior choices end up constituting the vast majority of differences in strength. Now compare to an actual different species, like a gorilla, and it's completely different. Humans can, to my knowledge, never reach the level of even their poorest performers. That's what a "race" difference would look like (since real life doesn't have "races" as they appear in Elder Scrolls, species is the better term).

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Well, duh!
As I keep saying whenever someone brings up Shalidor for example, to be remembered people have to do something -special-!
What is so difficult to understand about this?
Noone remembers all those many, many exceptional nord warriors... they are a dime a dozend in nord history... but the one nord that managed to become an exceptional mage -despite- the race not predisposed towards easy handling of magica, that one IS remembered.

Nothing is difficult to understand about that, you're just wrong. We aren't talking about just the memorable people like Shalidor, we're talking about the day-to-day people that canonically exist. There are Nord mages all over the canon. There are Khajiit warriors. Whole armies of Altmer in heavy armor. A coterie of Argonian assassins. Breton knights. Bosmer mystics. The works! Never mind all the day-to-day laborers, farmers, etc. We have more people among the races that aren't playing into their alleged "racial potential" than are. Seriously just pick up a lorebook or go gander at some NPCs.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Oh? So the lore does not state that Altmer are "the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races" or that Redguards are "the most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel" in the game-descriptions of those races?
Yeah, riiiight...

First, you linked the lore page on the UESP, not a primary source. As much as I love the UESP, their topic pages are heavily editorialized and not strictly consistent with the source material. Indeed, your quote comes from a section that doesn't even have a linked source. Want to know why? Because it's basing it off the Morrowind racial passives, which as mentioned above is something at least one of the devs for that game didn't even want. Same with the link to Redguards. You can't just link to a wiki page and except that to accomplish a whole argument for you.

As for "every race is good at everything", check The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel, a guidebook released with the ESO physical Imperial Edition. Every people is known for their warriors, their mages, their superb crafting, their shrewd traders, their expert stonework, etc. etc. It's a cornucopia of cultural insight that flies in the face of these alleged racial affinities.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

But the one who actually managed to kill a couple of slavers on the other hand... although, the way the story goes, it seemed to me it was more about surprise murder in the streets of morrowind then fighting fair duels, right?
As for the bretons, well... that tale has quite a few bits of bretons being -good- at magic, but some who not very smart about how to use it, does it not? Which is completely in line with the general lore, is it not? After all, just because someone has a racial advantage in magica handling due to some elven blood mixed into their history eras past, it does not mean they will have great experience in how to use their magic -right- in any given situation yes?

No, the "surprise murders", if any occurred at all in that book, occur in the homes of the slavers. It mentions him having the stealth and finesse to execute the most well-secured slavers in their most well-secured homes. It also, however, very explicitly mentions that they know he's skilled with a blade, and he is also very explicitly done in by a sneaky dunmer's poisoned needle. Those were the points under contention. As for the Mystery of Talara, you're participating in massive confirmation bias if you think the few Bretons displaying magickal skill in that book series are anything other than exceptional. Literally thousands of dancers for the March of Beauty and not a mention of a charm spell, the arrest at the end but no teleportation. Heck the Imperial Lord Strale is even seen using a bit of magick, how very unlike his bonus-to-stamina predisposition!

So to sum up, we have no lore evidence of anything beyond a cultural differences between the races, and a game dev who very explicitly doesn't want these race-based passives to continue to be a staple of game development. You have yet to point to anything lore-based beyond game mechanics to explain the need for racial passives, relying on personal feelings and a shallow reading of the lore rather than facts. Anything else?

Recremen · April 2018

Iluvrien wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

Never mind all the canonical orcs running around in light armor casting magicka skills as shamans, priests, or even just general-purpose mages. Never mind all the Altmer warriors canonically running around swinging swords in heavy armor defending Vulkhel Guard and the like.

Did you know that one orc woman was actually so good at unarmored combat that they wrote a book about her fighting off an entire bandit troop in nothing but her wedding dress? The Wraith's Wedding Dowry

And nothing in ESO prevents you from going against the racial stereotype. People will do just fine in most content, regardless of their race.

Sure, if you're into min/maxing you'll have to use the best race for your characters, but for everything else you don't have to.

@Kendaric

Right but the argument is whether or not races should have unique bonuses at all, not whether or not people will do fine for "most content". Outside of game mechanics the lore does not really support the idea that x race is inherently better at y task.

Game mechanics are merely how lore is reflected in a directly accessible manner.

In its simplest form, gravity itself is both lore and game mechanic.

If TES was a purely written/visual medium (TV or movie) with no access to the underlying mechanical structures then the divisive approach would be reasonable. However, this is a game series and we do have access to some of the underlying mechanics of the world. Shouldn’t we include those too?

@Iluvrien

No, game mechanics are a product of the development cycle and not automatically lore-based. There's never been a starvation or bathing mechanic but we all presume that people need to eat and clean themselves, for instance. We know that those mechanics would ultimately make for a worse TES game, though, and so we forgive leaving them out. The "racial passives", I argue, are nothing more than an inappropriate copying of other systems like D&D, because some people think it's neat. Much as ESO has gone against the grain in terms of many other MMO aspects, however, I think they have plenty of room to unshackle themselves from the tyranny of old beliefs about race and how it should affect the games.

Slick_007 · April 2018

Recremen wrote: »

@Iluvrien

No, game mechanics are a product of the development cycle and not automatically lore-based. There's never been a starvation or bathing mechanic but we all presume that people need to eat and clean themselves, for instance. We know that those mechanics would ultimately make for a worse TES game, though, and so we forgive leaving them out. The "racial passives", I argue, are nothing more than an inappropriate copying of other systems like D&D, because some people think it's neat. Much as ESO has gone against the grain in terms of many other MMO aspects, however, I think they have plenty of room to unshackle themselves from the tyranny of old beliefs about race and how it should affect the games.

if you like the system other games use so much, why are you playing this one and not them? i mean, if they are as good as you claim? ESO does not have to be the same as other games. If it were the same, we'd probably play them.
unshackling racials from races just means everyone would have the same racials. because all magicka would pick the same, all stam would pick the same etc. You know thats true.

Recremen · April 2018

Slick_007 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

@Iluvrien

No, game mechanics are a product of the development cycle and not automatically lore-based. There's never been a starvation or bathing mechanic but we all presume that people need to eat and clean themselves, for instance. We know that those mechanics would ultimately make for a worse TES game, though, and so we forgive leaving them out. The "racial passives", I argue, are nothing more than an inappropriate copying of other systems like D&D, because some people think it's neat. Much as ESO has gone against the grain in terms of many other MMO aspects, however, I think they have plenty of room to unshackle themselves from the tyranny of old beliefs about race and how it should affect the games.

if you like the system other games use so much, why are you playing this one and not them? i mean, if they are as good as you claim? ESO does not have to be the same as other games. If it were the same, we'd probably play them.
unshackling racials from races just means everyone would have the same racials. because all magicka would pick the same, all stam would pick the same etc. You know thats true.

@Slick_007

That's not even close to what I said. I said that other games do have this backwards concept of "racial" bonuses. ESO has room to be different, and has had success differentiating itself from other games. This is just another area it can do so.

And no, people wouldn't all have the same passives. Most of them have niche application, even if a couple are more obvious for raw power purposes. I actually think that Argonian passives would end up being pretty popular.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

Slick_007 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

@Iluvrien

No, game mechanics are a product of the development cycle and not automatically lore-based. There's never been a starvation or bathing mechanic but we all presume that people need to eat and clean themselves, for instance. We know that those mechanics would ultimately make for a worse TES game, though, and so we forgive leaving them out. The "racial passives", I argue, are nothing more than an inappropriate copying of other systems like D&D, because some people think it's neat. Much as ESO has gone against the grain in terms of many other MMO aspects, however, I think they have plenty of room to unshackle themselves from the tyranny of old beliefs about race and how it should affect the games.

if you like the system other games use so much, why are you playing this one and not them? i mean, if they are as good as you claim? ESO does not have to be the same as other games. If it were the same, we'd probably play them.
unshackling racials from races just means everyone would have the same racials. because all magicka would pick the same, all stam would pick the same etc. You know thats true.

It that was true there would already only be 3 races in the game. Altmer, Reguard, Argionian. Personally I tank with an Altmer, I stam DPS with an Orc and Bosmer, I heal on an Bosmer, and I mag DPS on an Altmer. Some people don't care for playing BiS, its boring.

That being said, I don't think it should be a free for all either. No one should have Resourceful, Y'Effe's Endurance, and Adrenaline Rush all on the same character. I wouldn't mind having Resourceful passive, if it didn't come with a tail. Still I find all of Altmer's passives relevant to my Warden Tank, so I'm happy.

TheShadowScout · April 2018

Recremen wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about cherry-picking passives. If the current set of racials are balanced then all we need do is let people pick from the current set.

They can do this already.
By. Picking. Their. Race!

You are suggesting they get to pick their passives as they like, regardless of race. Cherry picking the best set for their intended build, isntead of conforming to the outlines racian strengths.

Recremen wrote: »

So how can you say that these differences are legitimately genetic and not cultural averages when there is nothing in the lore to support the claim?

So you are saying, argonian swimming advantages are cultural, and have nothing to do with their lizardish ancestry and partially webbed toes or whatnot?
The only differenced between dunmer and chimer are cultural, and azuras curse turning their skin "like ash" has nothing to do with their fire resistance for example?
Nords being used to the cold is just a cultutal thing and has nothing to do with generations upon generations of natural selection in the icy winds of skyrim?
Khajiit fur and catlike agility a cultural thing, and not at all related in them, you know, being cat-people?
...
...next you will be telling me that sunburn I get in summer is cultural too and has nothing to do with my bohemian heritage not providing the same melanin count for my skin then someone of african descent? (and yes, I am jelous of those in summetime!)

Are you even checking what you say when you loudly proclaim everything cultural?

Recremen wrote: »

It is entirely deniable, that's the whole crux of my argument. Show me in the lore where there is undeniable in-universe-factual evidence supporting the idea that some races are automatically better at certain activities.

Races game-manual descriptions.
In-universe claims are never ever "undeniable" - any claim made in-universe is always a biased statement of a character after all!
But descriptions of the universe by the original developers Are, since they are describing the very foundations of the universe. Everything else has to be built on it, except when they "retcon" the lore.

Recremen wrote: »

We aren't talking about just the memorable people like Shalidor, we're talking about the day-to-day people that canonically exist. There are Nord mages all over the canon. There are Khajiit warriors. Whole armies of Altmer in heavy armor. A coterie of Argonian assassins. Breton knights. Bosmer mystics. The works! Never mind all the day-to-day laborers, farmers, etc. We have more people among the races that aren't playing into their alleged "racial potential" than are.

True.
Now lets try this again... repeat after me...
Personal Profession.
Racial Affinity.
Difference!

Why do you keep insisting a nord that studies magic must have somehow swapped their nord passives with altmer passives? Why should a Khajiit not be able to practice warrior skills without first changing their passives? Why would a altmers magic affinity keep them from following a different path?

Why would the racial passives force people into any role? (Well, except min/maxxer placer characters that is, and even they are not forced into any role, but choose it.)

Recremen wrote: »

First, you linked the lore page on the UESP, not a primary source. As much as I love the UESP, their topic pages are heavily editorialized and not strictly consistent with the source material. Indeed, your quote comes from a section that doesn't even have a linked source. Want to know why? Because it's basing it off the Morrowind racial passives, which as mentioned above is something at least one of the devs for that game didn't even want.

I am going there so people can check out the racial descriptions I am talking about.
And it is of little consequence what one developer would have preferred if the final product was made in a different way, since it would seem obvious their opinion was the minority, or the game would have been made their way, yes?
Now, if all the elder scrolls series had only had -cultures- and not races from the start, like some other universes... but that's not how it went, right?

Recremen wrote: »

As for "every race is good at everything", check The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel, a guidebook released with the ESO physical Imperial Edition. Every people is known for their warriors, their mages, their superb crafting, their shrewd traders, their expert stonework, etc. etc. It's a cornucopia of cultural insight that flies in the face of these alleged racial affinities.

Not so.
Once again, profession is not racial affinity, and racial affinity does not force anyone to take up any specific profession.

And to "git gud" at something, a person just needs to practice it enough. Thuse with some affinity for it maybe need less practice, and those without maybe more. But that does not preclude anyone from getting good at anything, does it now?
...
...which is why i will once again say that I would far prefer it if they adjusted the racial perks into some form that only give a "leg up" in reaching that "good" level, instead of a bonus on top. But not just let people pick whatever passive they like best and end up with altmer characters using argonian passives or something like that...

Recremen wrote: »

No, the "surprise murders", if any occurred at all in that book, occur in the homes of the slavers....

Read the story again, willya?

There was another murdered slave-trader found in the center of town, gutted from fore to aft.
...
We know he has the stealth and finesse to execute our most well-secured brethren in their most secure abodes.
...
The edge was still relatively keen, but there were scratches vertically across the blade's surface. Another beheading, she thought...
...
When the news came that Kemillith Torom, Peliah's husband-to-be, had been found outside of a canton, his head on a spike some feet away...
...
Two days nights later, Soron Jeles was visited by the Lopper. The struggle did not take long, but Soron had had armed himself with one small defense -- a needle dipped in the ichor of poisonplant, hidden up his sleeve.

One - it is evident that some murders happened in the victims homes, others out in the streets.
Two - it is mentioned that the murders within the slavers homes happen "with stealth and finesse". which would mean... surprise murders instead of formal duels, yes?
Three - the only thing one of those slavers had armed himself with mentioned was that poisoned needle, not any swords or other weapons, which would indicate Kazagh attacking the slavers while they were more or less unarmed (which would make sense if he was sneaking into their homes), or at the very least finishing them off by surprise before they can draw their blades (for those killed in the streets).
Four - the damage to the blade that is being repaired by Peliah is not from clashing blades, but from cutting through bone and the occasional bit of armor. Yet another piece of evidence for surprise murders rather then duels, no matter the location.

A armed khajiit attacking unarmed or at the very least unsuspecting slavers in places where they feel relatively safe, like their homes or streets of the city, striking by surprise since they obviosuly did not get a chance to yell for the guard... that does not sound like great displays of swordsmanship to me, hmm?
And the mentioned "skill with a sword" just means he is trained in its use... (derived from inspecting the cuts on the victims, I would presume) which leaves them to neglect the slaves since they are stupid and forget that even slaves all had lives before their enslavement, and instead look for someone active in a weapon-skilled profession. Serves them right for overlooking that, and even moreso for being bloody slavers in the first place!

Point I am trying to make - in No Way does this story support ANY claim that he bested all those slavers in a dazzling display of swordsmanship.

Recremen wrote: »

As for the Mystery of Talara, you're participating in massive confirmation bias if you think the few Bretons displaying magickal skill in that book series are anything other than exceptional. Literally thousands of dancers for the March of Beauty and not a mention of a charm spell, the arrest at the end but no teleportation. Heck the Imperial Lord Strale is even seen using a bit of magick, how very unlike his bonus-to-stamina predisposition!

And in what way does that say anything about racial affinity for magic?
...here we go again...
You are still trying to equal racial predisposition with personal profession.
What affinity a race has is one thing.
What skills a person leans a completely differeent thing.

Of course there will be bretons who never learn magic despite their races affinity for magica. Because that's not their job.
Of course there will be imperials who learn magic despite their races disposition for stamina. Because that's their job.

None of that means those predispositions do not exist though...

Recremen wrote: »

So to sum up, we have no lore evidence of anything beyond a cultural differences between the races...

Except we do, in all the racial descriptions, in all the depictions of those races in prior installments from the elder scrolls series. Which are more solid lore then anything you have been dredging up.

Recremen wrote: »

You have yet to point to anything lore-based beyond game mechanics...

Game mechanics and the ***... uhm... fine descriptions of these races in the game manuals that form the basis of the lore behind those mechanics!
The very basics of how those races were evisioned for the games!
I mean, have you -ever- taken a look at the very first racial descriptions back in TES:Arena? Or then contined to look at how the way the races are handled by game mechanics changed, yet the general depiction in terms of lore remained in the latter games, like Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim?
What do you think lore is, if not the underlying fluff behind all those game mechanics? And while the game effects change as the games use different mechanics, the underlying themes do not change - in all those depictions, altmer are good with magic, redguards good at warrior work, nords tough and often drunk, and so on.

All that you have is a personal belief that this should be thrown out of the window just because you wish to be able to pick the must effective combination regardless of character race, desperately trying to bend any lore you can find to conform to your desires, like the stories mentioned, trying to sell people profession for racial affinity, and muddle the waters of the established lore in an attempt to establish your point of view as dominant.
And I disagree with you, very much so.
That's all there is to it.

Recremen · April 2018

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about cherry-picking passives. If the current set of racials are balanced then all we need do is let people pick from the current set.

They can do this already.
By. Picking. Their. Race!

You are suggesting they get to pick their passives as they like, regardless of race. Cherry picking the best set for their intended build, isntead of conforming to the outlines racian strengths.

Recremen wrote: »

So how can you say that these differences are legitimately genetic and not cultural averages when there is nothing in the lore to support the claim?

So you are saying, argonian swimming advantages are cultural, and have nothing to do with their lizardish ancestry and partially webbed toes or whatnot?
The only differenced between dunmer and chimer are cultural, and azuras curse turning their skin "like ash" has nothing to do with their fire resistance for example?
Nords being used to the cold is just a cultutal thing and has nothing to do with generations upon generations of natural selection in the icy winds of skyrim?
Khajiit fur and catlike agility a cultural thing, and not at all related in them, you know, being cat-people?
...
...next you will be telling me that sunburn I get in summer is cultural too and has nothing to do with my bohemian heritage not providing the same melanin count for my skin then someone of african descent? (and yes, I am jelous of those in summetime!)

Are you even checking what you say when you loudly proclaim everything cultural?

Recremen wrote: »

It is entirely deniable, that's the whole crux of my argument. Show me in the lore where there is undeniable in-universe-factual evidence supporting the idea that some races are automatically better at certain activities.

Races game-manual descriptions.
In-universe claims are never ever "undeniable" - any claim made in-universe is always a biased statement of a character after all!
But descriptions of the universe by the original developers Are, since they are describing the very foundations of the universe. Everything else has to be built on it, except when they "retcon" the lore.

Recremen wrote: »

We aren't talking about just the memorable people like Shalidor, we're talking about the day-to-day people that canonically exist. There are Nord mages all over the canon. There are Khajiit warriors. Whole armies of Altmer in heavy armor. A coterie of Argonian assassins. Breton knights. Bosmer mystics. The works! Never mind all the day-to-day laborers, farmers, etc. We have more people among the races that aren't playing into their alleged "racial potential" than are.

True.
Now lets try this again... repeat after me...
Personal Profession.
Racial Affinity.
Difference!

Why do you keep insisting a nord that studies magic must have somehow swapped their nord passives with altmer passives? Why should a Khajiit not be able to practice warrior skills without first changing their passives? Why would a altmers magic affinity keep them from following a different path?

Why would the racial passives force people into any role? (Well, except min/maxxer placer characters that is, and even they are not forced into any role, but choose it.)

Recremen wrote: »

First, you linked the lore page on the UESP, not a primary source. As much as I love the UESP, their topic pages are heavily editorialized and not strictly consistent with the source material. Indeed, your quote comes from a section that doesn't even have a linked source. Want to know why? Because it's basing it off the Morrowind racial passives, which as mentioned above is something at least one of the devs for that game didn't even want.

I am going there so people can check out the racial descriptions I am talking about.
And it is of little consequence what one developer would have preferred if the final product was made in a different way, since it would seem obvious their opinion was the minority, or the game would have been made their way, yes?
Now, if all the elder scrolls series had only had -cultures- and not races from the start, like some other universes... but that's not how it went, right?

Recremen wrote: »

As for "every race is good at everything", check The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel, a guidebook released with the ESO physical Imperial Edition. Every people is known for their warriors, their mages, their superb crafting, their shrewd traders, their expert stonework, etc. etc. It's a cornucopia of cultural insight that flies in the face of these alleged racial affinities.

Not so.
Once again, profession is not racial affinity, and racial affinity does not force anyone to take up any specific profession.

And to "git gud" at something, a person just needs to practice it enough. Thuse with some affinity for it maybe need less practice, and those without maybe more. But that does not preclude anyone from getting good at anything, does it now?
...
...which is why i will once again say that I would far prefer it if they adjusted the racial perks into some form that only give a "leg up" in reaching that "good" level, instead of a bonus on top. But not just let people pick whatever passive they like best and end up with altmer characters using argonian passives or something like that...

Recremen wrote: »

No, the "surprise murders", if any occurred at all in that book, occur in the homes of the slavers....

Read the story again, willya?

There was another murdered slave-trader found in the center of town, gutted from fore to aft.
...
We know he has the stealth and finesse to execute our most well-secured brethren in their most secure abodes.
...
The edge was still relatively keen, but there were scratches vertically across the blade's surface. Another beheading, she thought...
...
When the news came that Kemillith Torom, Peliah's husband-to-be, had been found outside of a canton, his head on a spike some feet away...
...
Two days nights later, Soron Jeles was visited by the Lopper. The struggle did not take long, but Soron had had armed himself with one small defense -- a needle dipped in the ichor of poisonplant, hidden up his sleeve.

One - it is evident that some murders happened in the victims homes, others out in the streets.
Two - it is mentioned that the murders within the slavers homes happen "with stealth and finesse". which would mean... surprise murders instead of formal duels, yes?
Three - the only thing one of those slavers had armed himself with mentioned was that poisoned needle, not any swords or other weapons, which would indicate Kazagh attacking the slavers while they were more or less unarmed (which would make sense if he was sneaking into their homes), or at the very least finishing them off by surprise before they can draw their blades (for those killed in the streets).
Four - the damage to the blade that is being repaired by Peliah is not from clashing blades, but from cutting through bone and the occasional bit of armor. Yet another piece of evidence for surprise murders rather then duels, no matter the location.

A armed khajiit attacking unarmed or at the very least unsuspecting slavers in places where they feel relatively safe, like their homes or streets of the city, striking by surprise since they obviosuly did not get a chance to yell for the guard... that does not sound like great displays of swordsmanship to me, hmm?
And the mentioned "skill with a sword" just means he is trained in its use... (derived from inspecting the cuts on the victims, I would presume) which leaves them to neglect the slaves since they are stupid and forget that even slaves all had lives before their enslavement, and instead look for someone active in a weapon-skilled profession. Serves them right for overlooking that, and even moreso for being bloody slavers in the first place!

Point I am trying to make - in No Way does this story support ANY claim that he bested all those slavers in a dazzling display of swordsmanship.

Recremen wrote: »

As for the Mystery of Talara, you're participating in massive confirmation bias if you think the few Bretons displaying magickal skill in that book series are anything other than exceptional. Literally thousands of dancers for the March of Beauty and not a mention of a charm spell, the arrest at the end but no teleportation. Heck the Imperial Lord Strale is even seen using a bit of magick, how very unlike his bonus-to-stamina predisposition!

And in what way does that say anything about racial affinity for magic?
...here we go again...
You are still trying to equal racial predisposition with personal profession.
What affinity a race has is one thing.
What skills a person leans a completely differeent thing.

Of course there will be bretons who never learn magic despite their races affinity for magica. Because that's not their job.
Of course there will be imperials who learn magic despite their races disposition for stamina. Because that's their job.

None of that means those predispositions do not exist though...

Recremen wrote: »

So to sum up, we have no lore evidence of anything beyond a cultural differences between the races...

Except we do, in all the racial descriptions, in all the depictions of those races in prior installments from the elder scrolls series. Which are more solid lore then anything you have been dredging up.

Recremen wrote: »

You have yet to point to anything lore-based beyond game mechanics...

Game mechanics and the ***... uhm... fine descriptions of these races in the game manuals that form the basis of the lore behind those mechanics!
The very basics of how those races were evisioned for the games!
I mean, have you -ever- taken a look at the very first racial descriptions back in TES:Arena? Or then contined to look at how the way the races are handled by game mechanics changed, yet the general depiction in terms of lore remained in the latter games, like Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim?
What do you think lore is, if not the underlying fluff behind all those game mechanics? And while the game effects change as the games use different mechanics, the underlying themes do not change - in all those depictions, altmer are good with magic, redguards good at warrior work, nords tough and often drunk, and so on.

All that you have is a personal belief that this should be thrown out of the window just because you wish to be able to pick the must effective combination regardless of character race, desperately trying to bend any lore you can find to conform to your desires, like the stories mentioned, trying to sell people profession for racial affinity, and muddle the waters of the established lore in an attempt to establish your point of view as dominant.
And I disagree with you, very much so.
That's all there is to it.

Okay, yeah, so you're just going to double down on every point I already refuted, with examples, fail to grasp even the most basic aspects of how your arguments have been refuted, and accuse me of things which even a casual reading of what I've written can discredit.

Let me just summarize again, since it appears you want to drag the topic around in circles without actually addressing the arguments : Racial "affinites" are not supported by the lore. There is no canon biological basis for them beyond, again, what I've already mentioned regarding water breathing and similar gross physiological differences. You are taking game mechanics, which I've already shown are not supported by all the devs, and saying that they trump observable facts about individuals of the different races. You are taking a mistake in game design and ascribing it a more prominent role than the work of dozens to hundreds of writers who have shown us that Tamriel's races are diverse and interesting as opposed to fitting boring racial stereotypes. You are saying that the tiny fraction of a race's population that participates in the trappings of their alleged racial affinity and exalting them as being somehow representative of the whole race. That is the worst, most boring kind of essentialism. You are taking a minority of the population and saying "oh, no, that's what this race is really all about". It's flat out ridiculous and I wish you could open your eyes and be more critical of the situation.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about cherry-picking passives. If the current set of racials are balanced then all we need do is let people pick from the current set.

They can do this already.
By. Picking. Their. Race!

You are suggesting they get to pick their passives as they like, regardless of race. Cherry picking the best set for their intended build, isntead of conforming to the outlines racian strengths.

Recremen wrote: »

So how can you say that these differences are legitimately genetic and not cultural averages when there is nothing in the lore to support the claim?

So you are saying, argonian swimming advantages are cultural, and have nothing to do with their lizardish ancestry and partially webbed toes or whatnot?
The only differenced between dunmer and chimer are cultural, and azuras curse turning their skin "like ash" has nothing to do with their fire resistance for example?
Nords being used to the cold is just a cultutal thing and has nothing to do with generations upon generations of natural selection in the icy winds of skyrim?
Khajiit fur and catlike agility a cultural thing, and not at all related in them, you know, being cat-people?
...
...next you will be telling me that sunburn I get in summer is cultural too and has nothing to do with my bohemian heritage not providing the same melanin count for my skin then someone of african descent? (and yes, I am jelous of those in summetime!)

Are you even checking what you say when you loudly proclaim everything cultural?

Yes, that is mostly what I am suggesting. Maybe leave the first passive actually locked. They are mostly quality of life issues anyway. I do think a Bosmer/Orc mage and an Altmer/Breton warrior should be a little more believable.

Personally I think Passvie morphs would work better than just a free for all Passives system.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Why do you keep insisting a nord that studies magic must have somehow swapped their nord passives with altmer passives? Why should a Khajiit not be able to practice warrior skills without first changing their passives? Why would a altmers magic affinity keep them from following a different path?

Why would the racial passives force people into any role? (Well, except min/maxxer placer characters that is, and even they are not forced into any role, but choose it.)

Recremen wrote: »

First, you linked the lore page on the UESP, not a primary source. As much as I love the UESP, their topic pages are heavily editorialized and not strictly consistent with the source material. Indeed, your quote comes from a section that doesn't even have a linked source. Want to know why? Because it's basing it off the Morrowind racial passives, which as mentioned above is something at least one of the devs for that game didn't even want.

I am going there so people can check out the racial descriptions I am talking about.
And it is of little consequence what one developer would have preferred if the final product was made in a different way, since it would seem obvious their opinion was the minority, or the game would have been made their way, yes?
Now, if all the elder scrolls series had only had -cultures- and not races from the start, like some other universes... but that's not how it went, right?

Recremen wrote: »

As for "every race is good at everything", check The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel, a guidebook released with the ESO physical Imperial Edition. Every people is known for their warriors, their mages, their superb crafting, their shrewd traders, their expert stonework, etc. etc. It's a cornucopia of cultural insight that flies in the face of these alleged racial affinities.

Not so.
Once again, profession is not racial affinity, and racial affinity does not force anyone to take up any specific profession.

And to "git gud" at something, a person just needs to practice it enough. Thuse with some affinity for it maybe need less practice, and those without maybe more. But that does not preclude anyone from getting good at anything, does it now?
...
...which is why i will once again say that I would far prefer it if they adjusted the racial perks into some form that only give a "leg up" in reaching that "good" level, instead of a bonus on top. But not just let people pick whatever passive they like best and end up with altmer characters using argonian passives or something like that...

Would an Altmer warrior not have had the ability to hold magic surfured while their endurance strengthened?

Anyway I like the idea but wont be disappointed if it never happens.

aeowulf · April 2018

I would much rather see each race get cp bonus to certain skills

Iluvrien · April 2018

Recremen wrote: »

No, game mechanics are a product of the development cycle and not automatically lore-based.

Multiple development cycles... but I will get back to that.

Recremen wrote: »

There's never been a starvation or bathing mechanic but we all presume that people need to eat and clean themselves, for instance. We know that those mechanics would ultimately make for a worse TES game, though, and so we forgive leaving them out.

Skyrim Special Edition's survival mode wants to have a word with you... a in-game mechanical reflection of exactly the kinds of behaviour that you are describing.

Recremen wrote: »

We know that those mechanics would ultimately make for a worse TES game, though, and so we forgive leaving them out.

"We know" is an unsubstantiated subjective statement. The fact is that, using your own example, one or more (survival) mods that include hunger exist for Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim (in addition to that released by ZOS for SSE).

If these mechanics really would ultimately make for a worse TES game then why do people put active effort into including them and making them available to others?

Recremen wrote: »

The "racial passives", I argue, are nothing more than an inappropriate copying of other systems like D&D, because some people think it's neat. Much as ESO has gone against the grain in terms of many other MMO aspects, however, I think they have plenty of room to unshackle themselves from the tyranny of old beliefs about race and how it should affect the games.

Again, a subjective statement.

So, back to the question of game mechanics. You suggest that they are merely the production of a development cycle and don't embody lore ("automatically" is a different problem as it was never part of my original statement). Altmer, for example, have had a stat boost to their intelligence in Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion (Skyrim removed stats). That is a single example that weathered 3 development cycles. I would argue that this is not just about the vagaries of design required for a particular game.

The problem I have with throwing out all game mechanics as evidence in lore is that all of the written evidence is subjective. It is written by someone in the world who is subject to their own biases. Game mechanics though? They aren't subjective. They are third-person objective. They are dictated to the player through the interface/manual itself. There are variations between games but thematic commonalities do exist. Yet you discard that information, even when it matches with the narrative description of racial traits. Interesting.

For me that is like suggesting that the physical laws describing the interaction of radiation with matter have nothing to do with the variations in skin colour that are observable in our own species.

moonio · April 2018

I think complexity is important in this game, if that means you have to consider racial passives when choosing your character and play style then that is good.
As I said in another thread, if you don't want to engage in the mechanics of the game then go and read a book about it instead.
There are also a multitude of other games that incorporate bland dull and boring gameplay which you can choose from on your desired platform.

KanedaSyndrome · April 2018

Updated the OP with the following bit as promised:
_________________________________________________________

So in the following discussion there's been talk back and forth regarding how this should be implemented. Here's my take on it.

Mechanically, it'd be the same as the racial skill lines that we have currently, only difference would be that they're chosen upon player creation independently of what race you choose. They'll be renamed to archetype skill lines or something just as apt.

Why is it my suggestion to do it this way?
Because whatever balancing efforts is already poured into the racial skill lines would persist this way, you wouldn't get to choose the best skills from each line and compose your own new custom made one. This way this change is fairly simple and wouldn't break anything balancing-wise. Does this mean that I long term don't want more customizability in the archetype skill lines? No it doesn't, I think that would be nifty.

Basically what we'd end up with is players having the freedom to choose what their characters have a natural aptitude for. We, the players, the characters, are the oddballs out of our nations/cultures/races. Not everyone is escaping Molag Bal for instance. With us being this unique, it's not inconceivable in my mind that there may be a legendary Breton fighter or an extremely magically gifted Khajiit.

To the sceptics, We have to remember though that we won't suddenly see the entire player base going fighter altmers and orc mages. Many of us come from a strong roleplaying standpoint, we have an idea of whom our character is, and often, this idea aligns with classical lore. I will definitely make a high magic altmer, I will most certainly play a screaming war-happy orc as well. Perfectly within the stereotype for such races. But at the same time, I would love to see my nord be magically gifted, see my Breton climb walls with the agility of a Khajiit.

My point is, the player base will inherently make sure that the lore is kept safe, purely by our creativity and love for the TES lore, regardless whether or not racials are changed to a choosable archetype. This will just merely give us the freedom to play the character that stands out from the norm.

I Wish you all a great day, and please continue the discussion as it's most inspiring

moonio · April 2018

This thread actually reminds me of the 'do you wish there was a greater role for tanks in pvp' thread.

I will say no more about that..

AverageJo3Gam3r · April 2018

Even simpler: racial morphs.

TheShadowScout · April 2018

Recremen wrote: »

Okay, yeah, so you're just going to double down on every point I already refuted, with examples, fail to grasp even the most basic aspects of how your arguments have been refuted, and accuse me of things which even a casual reading of what I've written can discredit.

You failed to refute anything. You keep trying to bring faulty arguments, and I keep pointing out faults in your arguments.

Recremen wrote: »

Let me just summarize again, since it appears you want to drag the topic around in circles without actually addressing the arguments : Racial "affinites" are not supported by the lore.

Wrong.
The game manual descriptions of the races ARE lore. That is the very basic of lore.

Recremen wrote: »

There is no canon biological basis for them beyond, again, what I've already mentioned regarding water breathing and similar gross physiological differences.

Except the lore mentioning them in the darn racial descriptions, right from the very beginning of the elder scrolls lore, as I stated.

Recremen wrote: »

You are taking game mechanics, which I've already shown are not supported by all the devs...

...which is immaterial since they -obviously- made the games the way they were made, so the one not supporting this clearly was overvoted by the majority of the other game developers. Duh.

Recremen wrote: »

You are taking a mistake in game design and ascribing it a more prominent role than the work of dozens to hundreds of writers who have shown us that Tamriel's races are diverse and interesting as opposed to fitting boring racial stereotypes.

One - if it was a mistake, it would have been corrected. Neither the racial descriptions nor the game mechanics strayed from these racial affinities over all the TES games. They changed in mechanic, true, but they kept to the general theme. Thus we can extrapolate that it was not considered a mistake my the majority of the game developers throughout that time.
Two - I am not contradicting any of the other lore, I only say that the professions of the people of tamriel have no connection whatsoever to their racial affinities.
Three - I am saying the races of tamriel are diverse and interesting despite their racial predispositions, and do not let them pidgeonhole themselves into one simgular cliché - for some it merely is easier then for others.
Four - I am saying, people do not need to cherry-pick their characters passives for them to be diverse and interesting.

Recremen wrote: »

You are taking a minority of the population and saying "oh, no, that's what this race is really all about"...

Wrong.
You are doing this from the wrong side, looking at the race in general and confuse their professions with the racial affinity, coming to the faulty conclusion that if a race has all kinds of people, this must mean they can pick whatever passives they like for some reason (and I assume because you want free passive selection and now try to bend the argument to favor your opinion over everything that has gone before, declaring all of the other elder scrolls games a "mistake" because it suits your argument).

I on the other hand am looking at it seperate, racial affinity as one thing, and any given persons profession as something completely different, and do not believe that affinity must decree a persons profession (though it would certainly help). Even their personal abilities (aka, how they spent their attribute points, though personally I would have wished for more detailed stats like in past TES games) as something completely different. Thus I argue that the racial passives are correct in flavor and concept, as they have been in all of TES gaming, and we ought to argue about their effect in game instead, and maybe try to think of ways how they can still be true to all the things that have been before, yet have less of an "must have" impact to the ESO endgame; and possibly -add- some more passives that would be freely selectable, passives depicting not the races, but an individual characters background, upbringing, and life before adventuring.

idk · April 2018

Zos deliberately chose to not separate racial passives from the race itself.

This is obvious, and clear, since the original statement over a year ago concerning the pending race changes was originally just changing the passives to that of another race and keeping the current appearance of the character. Between that first announcement of the then upcoming changes and the implementation they chose to keep them tied together.

Since they did choose to keep them tied together in a pivotal moment that would have been the best time to separate the two it seems extremely unlikely this part of the base core design will occur, though it would be a great source of revenue. Regardless, people can dream even if the odds are virtually non existent.

KanedaSyndrome · April 2018

It's a pity that this was moved to Combat & Character Mechanics forum, barely anyone reads this forum.

Subversus · April 2018

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

@Sergykid
?????
Races are detrimental to PvP balance, it’s most definitely not a “1-2k loss at best”. Lol.

I don’t like to be forced to play an argonian simply because they’re bar none the best race for magblades in PvP.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

My view is a little different but I think would resolve a lot of the problems. Firstly, no racial passive should be unique. What I mean by this is that no racial passive should be something that people can not acquire elsewhere in other ways (Enchantments, sets, etc). Secondly, racial passives should be a static and not percentile derived number. This static number should be added after all percentile calculations. In this way an Altmer warrior building to play as a Stamina-based Warrior could still be quite well off by simply shuffling points in the direction of playing a warrior. There would be no multiplicative effects exacerbating an already off kilter system.

The reason I hold this view is that previous TES games have always made it possible to be a Nord, Redguard, Imperial, Khajiit, Orc or Bosmer mage. Tes games have always made it possible to play a Warrior Breton, Altmer, Dunmer, etc. There were some subtle advantages for these races and while they weren't perfectly balanced (some races were clearly stronger overall) it was very easily possible to make a strong mage of any race and a strong warrior of any race.

The counterpoint to this is that ESO is a game unto itself and we should adapt. This is in some sense of course true but recognize that the very nature of the races when this game was launched was different and the rule set were different. I would argue that the original intent has changed, races have changed, classes have changed, and the entire rules of the game have utterly changed. Changing your race really is not acceptable to match every rules change the developers come up with. I personally feel they should make the game more friendly to this notion. I'm not demanding it I'm simply suggesting that this would be best for the game as a whole.

Sergykid · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

@Sergykid
?????
Races are detrimental to PvP balance, it’s most definitely not a “1-2k loss at best”. Lol.

I don’t like to be forced to play an argonian simply because they’re bar none the best race for magblades in PvP.

in pvp yes, the race will make it a win or lose. I often fought opponents which if they were something else other than argonian i would have won

ChefZero · April 2018

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I like this idea and find it much more in line with how I built my characters in Oblivion and Skyrim. Racials have traditionally had a much smaller impact channeling what type of char archtype you played in previous ES games. Specifically, I've always played magic Bosmers and ESO discourages that much moreso than previous ES games.

A few examples from TES III: Morrowind of racial passives:

Argonians - Immune to Posion
Bretons - 50% magic resistance
Dunmer - 75% fire resistance

and even more..

The point is you played alone before and nobody cares it. Now you want to be competitive with others.

JinMori · April 2018

From a min maxing point of view it would be interesting to take 10 % extra magicka, the 4% extra elemental damage and the flame passive from dunmer for magicka dps.

But seriously, instead of making you choose your passives on the character creation screen, make it so you can earn them by doing something, like for example, you are a nord, but through dedication to the magical arts you managed to become as good as a high elf in magic, therefore, you can choose to gain any of the passives from high elf, like gift of magnus, this could also be improved so you can choose any passive from any race at whatever level you want, and maybe also put up a morph for it, to make the racial system have even more depth.

TheGrayChangeling · April 2018

I love the idea of making the passives into selectable sets based on the existing racial skill lines at character creation. As the OP says, they are already balanced so there is no need to be concerned about game breaking combos that way.

This suggestion reminds me of the many pleasant hours I spent creating characters for TES II - Daggerfall during the years when I played that ES game.

Which is also the very game I can't help but think of when I see people in this thread carrying on about "But the Lore, it breaks the Lore". It certainly didn't in Daggerfall when you could (with the point system) pick and choose your characters starting buffs and debuffs a la carte at character creation.

I feel like many of these self styled defenders of the lore may not have been playing in this universe quite as long. Or really even reading any of the books in-game. The racial bonuses are treated as cultural aspiration more than functional reality within the stories of Tamriel (as some have taken the time to try and explain to you all). And from a mechanical perspective for players racial bonuses have ranged in effect from suggestions (in ye olde incarnations of the game), to largely unimportant bonuses without sufficient strength detriment (edited to clarify intended meaning) to prevent any race/class combo you might want to play (in the more recent games). And that without even mentioning Mods.

But not so in ESO, precisely because it is an MMO - the differences granted by those bonuses matter. And a return to the deeper roots - but in the more balanced way suggested in this thread (racial skill lines repackaged as aptitude or archetype skill lines) has my full and enthusiastic support and for all the reasons supporters have laid out at length.

NobleX35 · April 2018

I find it ridiculous how many people are against the concept of letting players have more options with regards to their racial passives and use the strawmans argument of “lore” as their basis for wanting to limit players. IF YOU DON’T WANT TO DEVIATE THEN DON’T, BUT STOP TRYING TO LIMIT OTHERS. The op and so many others have provided countless reasons why these additional options could work and still be lore friendly.

I definitely think this is an excellent idea, and I’m for changing racial passives to be less constricting. Racial passives have a real effect on min/maxing and really limit players in their racial choices if they want to be properly optimized. The system should not be so limiting.

waitwhat · April 2018

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

I'm advocating a change from racials to an archetype that you choose upon character creation.

How will it work?
Simple, any current racial skill lines will be a skill line that you can choose upon character creation. These skill lines are already balanced out against each other, and thus this breaks nothing balance-wise. What this basically does is that it allows you to choose what race your character is without compromising on your min/maxing habits.

Want to play an optimal magicka character that so happens to be a redguard? You can do that with this change. Without compromising your min/maxing desires.
Want to be a badass nightblade with your Breton (Just like in the cinematics), you can do that with this change. Without compromising your min/maxing desires.

There will be naysayers, there always are, but think a bit about this, naysayer, how would this change adversely affect you?

My story:
I have a nord warden, he fits perfectly thematically, but I have this gamer gene that compels me to optimize characters, but I can't, because of his racials not lending themselves to a magicka build.

Play As You Want©

____________________________________________________________________________________
UPDATED SUGGESTION OF HOW THIS WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED
____________________________________________________________________________________

So in the following discussion there's been talk back and forth regarding how this should be implemented. Here's my take on it.

Mechanically, it'd be the same as the racial skill lines that we have currently, only difference would be that they're chosen upon player creation independently of what race you choose. They'll be renamed to archetype skill lines or something just as apt.

Why is it my suggestion to do it this way?
Because whatever balancing efforts is already poured into the racial skill lines would persist this way, you wouldn't get to choose the best skills from each line and compose your own new custom made one. This way this change is fairly simple and wouldn't break anything balancing-wise. Does this mean that I long term don't want more customizability in the archetype skill lines? No it doesn't, I think that would be nifty.

Basically what we'd end up with is players having the freedom to choose what their characters have a natural aptitude for. We, the players, the characters, are the oddballs out of our nations/cultures/races. Not everyone is escaping Molag Bal for instance. With us being this unique, it's not inconceivable in my mind that there may be a legendary Breton fighter or an extremely magically gifted Khajiit.

To the sceptics, We have to remember though that we won't suddenly see the entire player base going fighter altmers and orc mages. Many of us come from a strong roleplaying standpoint, we have an idea of whom our character is, and often, this idea aligns with classical lore. I will definitely make a high magic altmer, I will most certainly play a screaming war-happy orc as well. Perfectly within the stereotype for such races. But at the same time, I would love to see my nord be magically gifted, see my Breton climb walls with the agility of a Khajiit.

My point is, the player base will inherently make sure that the lore is kept safe, purely by our creativity and love for the TES lore, regardless whether or not racials are changed to a choosable archetype. This will just merely give us the freedom to play the character that stands out from the norm.

I Wish you all a great day, and please continue the discussion as it's most inspiring

This is wonderful.

Also, if they did this, they could sell archetype change tokens alongside race change tokens. Not advocating either way for that, but just worth thinking about if ZoS is on the fence about the archetype change idea.

To help each race maintain their unique flavor, you could keep the non-combat racial passives (e.g. extra XP for Altmer) tied to race.

waitwhat · April 2018

Racial passives really break immersion in this game, given how consequential they are in combat.

In TES III, IV, and V, it really didn't matter what race you were, because you'd eventually become so OP that it it wouldn't matter, or you'd set the difficulty so high that something like 50% mag resist wasn't going to save you at all.

Here though, I'm struggling to explain Drodda of Icereach, Shezah, Forge-Mother Alga,The Silvenar, Magus-General Septima Tharn, and Abnur Tharn, along with the Knights of the Flame, King Emeric, Queen Ayrenn, and the Pellingare twins. All of them are pretty off-meta in a big way.

WildRaptorX · April 2018

I was thinking about this the other day. We should have the choice of any 3/4 ‘racial’ passive to optimise our character creation

Marginis · April 2018

F*** yes. 100% agree with OP. This is an MMO, not a single player game. We need balance between combat power and lore, not just one or the other. Get rid of racial bonuses, hurt lore lovers. Get rid of balance, MMO metagamers are sad. OP's solution allows both to be happy.

Silver_Strider · April 2018

I just want more Lore Friendly Argonian passives. Current passives, apart from Poison/Disease resist and maybe the Potion passive, aren't exactly lore friendly, like at all.

InFernalEntity · April 2018

If each Race still had racials that were selected at character creation but unique to each race that could work?

Take names of key passives and have 4 or 5 unique sets of Passives for each race.

Magical Aptitude for Nords for example:
9% increase to Frost Damage
Frost Resistance
20% Health recovery + 6% Magicka

It's in line with traditional Nord Racials but more suited for a magicka based Nord.

This means:

- No Cherry Picking Passives

All passives come in sets of 3. No mixing and matching. Just a little more choice depending on where you want to take the character

- Doesn't Break Lore

Despite having 4 or 5 "Archetypes" that will share the same title for each race, if these are tailored to each race then it doesn't break lore. Magical Aptitude for Magicka based characters will remain the same. But options for "Assassin" or "Berserker" Archetypes will fit them with appropriate passives.

- Doesn't break Gameplay

If this is a one time choice...you already made a 1 time choice when you picked a race the way things are now. You still have to pay $20 to change race if you decided to switch from stamsorc to magsorc for example because right now, Redguard doesn't cut it with magic.

So it's not gonna be a case of "I wanna switch to stam why do my passives suck" 90% of the time you'd need to roll a new toon or buy a token anyway.

- Iconic Trait (for lore reasons)

1 of the 3 passives will be applied to all Archetypes as a "true Racial" if you will.
For example, regardless of what the other 2 racial passives in the Archetype are, all Dunmer Archetypes will have a resistance to fire, All Imperial Archetypes have 10% more health, All Nord Archetypes have a resistance to frost etc.

Overall won't subtract from racial identity, won't break lore, does force people to make a choice.... any other argument I have missed out?

The only issue I can see is balance. But this would be more about closing the gap between races and roles. No race is gonna take over Altmer for Max Magicka Pool etc. But there should be a way to close the gap.

No race outside of Altmer/Dunmer should get the + 10%/9% magicka they do for Lore reasons.
Similar examples for stamina recovery and Bosmer/max stam and redguard etc.

That's my take on the idea anyway...

Tl;dr:

One time choice of sets of passives tailored by role AND race for lore.