Make Racials Into Archetype

Maura_Neysa

qbkitsune wrote: »

One way to keep the passives but have them be less influential in the end game would be to stop scaling damage from magicka/stamina. Skill/gear based damage already exists, so why not change the math to focus on that? Or come up with some other system? Then you wouldn’t need to min/max, and the racial passives wouldn’t be as influential. It would also allow for a wider variety of builds while preserving the idea that certain races have affinities for different attributes.

There are plenty of stamina races that have notable mages in their lore or a well-known magicka-using priesthood, like the Spinners of Valenwood. Likewise, there are magicka races that have famous stamina users, most of whom are the various knights you meet in each faction. Due to the current min/max requirements, you can pretty much assume any NPC wielding a melee weapon is a stamina character:-/

What would be the advantage of max stat then? Max stat is everyowhere glyphs, armor, food, passives. Without damage scaling off max stats though, then Regen would be the only thing that matter. It seems as though max stat has to be worth something somewhere.

Chaos2088

Yeah think it would be a good addition/change to the game. I play alot of Altmers, would be good if one was totally leaned towards stam.

Delta1038

Sorry but no, this just would not fit with lore in the Elder Scrolls universe. You are totally capable of making a race go outside its racials and be super effective but as strong as Shalidor may have been, the high elves were always naturally inclined to magic moreso than nords. Now if they wanted to created other ways to tweak a class regardless of race ok, but it just does not fit this universe at all and lore is critical to an mmo as much as it is a single player game.

thomas1970b16_ESO

It is important to have a balance between the MMORP and the G. Too much of either and the game stops being fun.

Slick_007

Yzalirk wrote: »

For a game that is “play as/who you want,” race can be somewhat of a burden due to racial passives. Also, the vestige is depicted as a powerful person so regardless of what race you are, you should be the strongest regardless.

i suggest you take a refresher on the 'play as you want' line and stop misusing it like it always is when it suits players who dont like something. Go look up what ZOS actually said with it.

TheShadowScout

Recremen wrote: »

Looked at in a different way, we can easily explain the whole "different races are good at different things" as a game design product of its time. It really is just a reflection of the effects that real-world racism has had on game development, echoes from the past that we flat out haven't questioned enough to realize "hey, this might be inappropriate to keep doing".

So, you are saying all people are completely equal in every regard, and when I go let my pale caucasian a... uhm... rear hang out in the summer sun I will be just as fine as anyone with a way higher melanin count in their skin?
Yeah, rrrriiiight!
The sunburn I will almost certainly get again this summer says different I wager!

Go check on what racism means - if does not mean noticing that there are some differences, it means believing one race is "superior" to another; it means inventing some new differences according to your ideology where there are none; it means treating people different because of their race even when there are no -actual- logical reasons to, and making up some bulls... uhm... "alternate facts" to justify it.

And the game gets way more involved when you have fantasy races that are actually -way- different, like cat-people and lizardmen, elves and orcs! Where they might have way more differences then sunlight tolerance or hair curlyness. When some races are inheritantly bigger then some others, or have other structural differences.

Go on, keep trying to argue that it would be "racist" to assume a ten-foot TES giant has more strength then a six foot human. Because that is what you are trying to do here...

Recremen wrote: »

Beyond a couple of absolute physiological differences that don't even show up in this game (Argonian water breathing, Khajiit Night Eye) there is just no reason to believe that a particular member of a certain race even HAS a leg up on their competitors. Is some Altmer stablehand really more gifted in magic than a Nord stablehand?

Yes.
Because of altmer having a racial affinity for magic according to the lore, having basically "magic in their blood" so to speak. That means they -could- be more gifted... of course, if they never learn magic, those gifts will remain latent and may never develop.

Is the nord stablehand really more cold-resistant then a altmer stablehand?
Yes.
Because of generations upon generations of ancestors living in the cold dales of Skyrim. Evolution and adaptation are a thing, you know... but once again, if they do not live in skyrim and develop those latent abilities into their peak, they will stay undeveloped.

And so on.

Its -not- a cultural thing.
It -really- is a racial thing.
By fiat of the loremakers!

Want to rewrite the lore? Easy, buy the elder scrolls license, then you can do whatever with it.

Recremen wrote: »

Since we're talking about game mechanics, let's take a deeper dive into these "racial" bonuses. They don't even unlock until you level up! And significantly, at that! So how can it really be inherent to the race if most members of that race will never even display those attributes? Are we really to believe that it's instead some kind of potential that each race could grow into? Well that's not how it was in other TES games, so if we care about how it's worked in the series then we're already doing it wrong. And if the argument is "oh the leveling is just a game mechanic, it's not important for the lore!" then the question becomes : if the game mechanic isn't important for the lore, then why have the game mechanic to begin with?

It is -exactly- some sort of potential each member of a race can grow into.
Much like some people have the genetic potential to be stronger then others... if they train and build up muscles, they will be stronger, if they laze on the couch all their life, they will never develop their latent potential.

But no matter what they so, they cannot develop a potential they do not have - not without some serious genetic engineering to give them new potential.

They can however still learn everything someone else can learn. Just like I could learn to play music. But I will likely not be as good as someone with perfect pitch, right? And that would be -just- one of those annoying and unfair genetic advantages you are trying to argue do not exist...

...


Now... HOW that potential of each race should be depicted in the game, that is another question. And one worth discussing, since I myself am also not quite happy with the current incarnation that leads to min/maxxers considering some races "must have" for some builds. I much rather would see all racial perks done in some way that gives a leg up at the start, but not a percentage bonus on top of everything in the endgame... (Like it was back in some of the older games, where every race could do every thing, some races just had a leg up in the skills and some extra advantages like resistances or whatnot)

My favorite way of handling racial aptitudes would be with a softcap ceiling, and the racial bonus just helps reaching the ceiling sooner, but does not raise it for that race. This way everyone could get there is they so choose, the races with some affinity for it would just get there with less effort.

Recremen wrote: »

I think that since racial stereotypes can already exist in-game without a game mechanic backing them, combined with the fact that this sort of change would be useful to majority of players, means that this suggestion has my firm backing. There's no reason to keep this archaic development practice going when personalized character backgrounds can more easily explain differences between individuals. Let the racism stay part of the story, not part of the game mechanics.

Oh, I am sure a lot of players would like it and back such suggestion. Players who don't carer about the lore, who don't want to have to make choices, who want to be able to cherry pick the best passives and have their favorite appereance as well... the same kind of people who want everything account wide, and everything handed to them, want add-ons to tell them what to do when... that sort of people.

Personally, I would rather have the elder scrolls lore, with magic-happy altmer, sword-loving redguard, tough nords, etc.
And maybe find some other way to make things less of an issue in the endgame... it is supposed to be an -affinity- not an unsurmountable advantage!

KanedaSyndrome

Great discussion here. I will come with a more fleshed out suggestion tonight.

Recremen

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Looked at in a different way, we can easily explain the whole "different races are good at different things" as a game design product of its time. It really is just a reflection of the effects that real-world racism has had on game development, echoes from the past that we flat out haven't questioned enough to realize "hey, this might be inappropriate to keep doing".

So, you are saying all people are completely equal in every regard, and when I go let my pale caucasian a... uhm... rear hang out in the summer sun I will be just as fine as anyone with a way higher melanin count in their skin?
Yeah, rrrriiiight!
The sunburn I will almost certainly get again this summer says different I wager!

Go check on what racism means - if does not mean noticing that there are some differences, it means believing one race is "superior" to another; it means inventing some new differences according to your ideology where there are none; it means treating people different because of their race even when there are no -actual- logical reasons to, and making up some bulls... uhm... "alternate facts" to justify it.

And the game gets way more involved when you have fantasy races that are actually -way- different, like cat-people and lizardmen, elves and orcs! Where they might have way more differences then sunlight tolerance or hair curlyness. When some races are inheritantly bigger then some others, or have other structural differences.

Go on, keep trying to argue that it would be "racist" to assume a ten-foot TES giant has more strength then a six foot human. Because that is what you are trying to do here...

Recremen wrote: »

Beyond a couple of absolute physiological differences that don't even show up in this game (Argonian water breathing, Khajiit Night Eye) there is just no reason to believe that a particular member of a certain race even HAS a leg up on their competitors. Is some Altmer stablehand really more gifted in magic than a Nord stablehand?

Yes.
Because of altmer having a racial affinity for magic according to the lore, having basically "magic in their blood" so to speak. That means they -could- be more gifted... of course, if they never learn magic, those gifts will remain latent and may never develop.

Is the nord stablehand really more cold-resistant then a altmer stablehand?
Yes.
Because of generations upon generations of ancestors living in the cold dales of Skyrim. Evolution and adaptation are a thing, you know... but once again, if they do not live in skyrim and develop those latent abilities into their peak, they will stay undeveloped.

And so on.

Its -not- a cultural thing.
It -really- is a racial thing.
By fiat of the loremakers!

Want to rewrite the lore? Easy, buy the elder scrolls license, then you can do whatever with it.

Recremen wrote: »

Since we're talking about game mechanics, let's take a deeper dive into these "racial" bonuses. They don't even unlock until you level up! And significantly, at that! So how can it really be inherent to the race if most members of that race will never even display those attributes? Are we really to believe that it's instead some kind of potential that each race could grow into? Well that's not how it was in other TES games, so if we care about how it's worked in the series then we're already doing it wrong. And if the argument is "oh the leveling is just a game mechanic, it's not important for the lore!" then the question becomes : if the game mechanic isn't important for the lore, then why have the game mechanic to begin with?

It is -exactly- some sort of potential each member of a race can grow into.
Much like some people have the genetic potential to be stronger then others... if they train and build up muscles, they will be stronger, if they laze on the couch all their life, they will never develop their latent potential.

But no matter what they so, they cannot develop a potential they do not have - not without some serious genetic engineering to give them new potential.

They can however still learn everything someone else can learn. Just like I could learn to play music. But I will likely not be as good as someone with perfect pitch, right? And that would be -just- one of those annoying and unfair genetic advantages you are trying to argue do not exist...

...


Now... HOW that potential of each race should be depicted in the game, that is another question. And one worth discussing, since I myself am also not quite happy with the current incarnation that leads to min/maxxers considering some races "must have" for some builds. I much rather would see all racial perks done in some way that gives a leg up at the start, but not a percentage bonus on top of everything in the endgame... (Like it was back in some of the older games, where every race could do every thing, some races just had a leg up in the skills and some extra advantages like resistances or whatnot)

My favorite way of handling racial aptitudes would be with a softcap ceiling, and the racial bonus just helps reaching the ceiling sooner, but does not raise it for that race. This way everyone could get there is they so choose, the races with some affinity for it would just get there with less effort.

Recremen wrote: »

I think that since racial stereotypes can already exist in-game without a game mechanic backing them, combined with the fact that this sort of change would be useful to majority of players, means that this suggestion has my firm backing. There's no reason to keep this archaic development practice going when personalized character backgrounds can more easily explain differences between individuals. Let the racism stay part of the story, not part of the game mechanics.

Oh, I am sure a lot of players would like it and back such suggestion. Players who don't carer about the lore, who don't want to have to make choices, who want to be able to cherry pick the best passives and have their favorite appereance as well... the same kind of people who want everything account wide, and everything handed to them, want add-ons to tell them what to do when... that sort of people.

Personally, I would rather have the elder scrolls lore, with magic-happy altmer, sword-loving redguard, tough nords, etc.
And maybe find some other way to make things less of an issue in the endgame... it is supposed to be an -affinity- not an unsurmountable advantage!

@TheShadowScout

Getting a sunburn isn't the same as having a 20% bonus to stamina. As I said there are certain absolute physiological differences, like Altmer being the only ones who can have gold skin. But oh look even not all of them have golden skin in ESO. Lore broken forever?? Hardly.

And don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about a 10-foot tall giants being stronger than a 6-foot tall human. You might want to look up what a straw man argument is. :-p What I'm talking about is differences between in-game races who roughly occupy the same physiological niche, namely "normal-height humanoids".

I'm curious why you're sticking with this talk of "genetics" (never mentioned in the lore) and an insistence that these differences are physiological instead of cultural when your own examples are evidence against it. If a "race", such as it is, has a physiological difference between another race then it will show up in 100% members of that race. If not, it's not really a characteristic of that race, is it? Your couch potato example is particularly telling. If they have a genetic predisposition towards being strong (more fast-twitch muscle fibers, preferential glycogen uptake, etc.) then they're going to be stronger even without working out.

Do we see this in the lore? No, no we don't. In fact, the lore is rife with examples of people remarkably unaffected by their alleged racial propensity for this or that skillset. Indeed, one of the most common themes in the lore is "everyone is good at everything." Everyone race is known for their fierce warriors of this or that type. Every race is known for having a robust magickal tradition in one form or another. Every race has a caste of expert craftspeople. And on and on. The more lore you read with your eyes open, the more you see that nobody is special just for being a particular race.

You know what we do see in the lore, though? People talking about how great their race is at this or that. Oh yeah Khajiit are great sneaks, you trust. And Dunmer have a peerless swordsmanship tradition, so skilled they are with the long blade. Oh until you go read Last Scabbard of Akrash, where the Khajiit keeps besting Dunmer slavers with swordplay but is done in by a sneaky move from a Dunmer's poisoned needle. Oh and then there's The Mystery of Talara, where a whole host of Bretons could solve all their problems with magick, but don't, because they aren't actually good at it.

Seriously, please take some time to examine the lore a little more closely. A casual in the lore looks at it and believes it all at face value. A scholar looks for the instances where people are lying or exaggerating.

JobooAGS

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

But you cannot even do that in ESO...

Yes you can, a good player can still pick up his lack of being a superior race if they are not bad, but if you put two players of equal skill with one min maxed and the other not min maxed the superior race will outperform the lesser race

You said a Nord, with the exception of Shalidor, cannot be as talented in the arcane arts as a High Elf, correct?

Figure this, a Nord and an Altmer are wearing the same gear, same CP options, and both have 64 points into Magicka. The Altmer will out perform the Nord because of racial passives. Maybe not by a whole lot but still a noticeable difference.

For a game that is “play as/who you want,” race can be somewhat of a burden due to racial passives. Also, the vestige is depicted as a powerful person so regardless of what race you are, you should be the strongest regardless.

You can play as you want, but there can be consequences for your decisions. Racials with the exception of casualized skyrim have always been important to the elder scrolls series, welcome to the elder scrolls where elves are magically proficient compared to men, and men better warriors usually.

In oblivion endgame, racials largely doesnt matter as all attrubites are hard capped, other than fortications, but with spell crafting, any race can have anything, excpet for power, which for a once per day thing, is pretty useless

ghastley

Everyone should start out with one round ear and one pointed, and a hint of a tail. Then as the game progresses, they should get even more confused.

There's a good case for providing a late-game method for undoing your initial choices, especially if they're already permitting part of it with Re-spec scrolls and the like. However, I'd prefer a different method for achieving that.

Sergykid

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

ZioGio

I'm neutral on the topic, but I would say that playing to your racial passives, even if they do not match your class, can be fun and rewarding. Granted, I'm talking from a mostly solo questing and random dungeon PUG perspective; I don't focus on PvP or trials.

For some, min/maxing is part of the fun and I won't tell someone else how to play the game. I just don't want new players to think that min/maxing is the ONLY way to play; there are ways to have fun with a perceived racial disadvantage.

For example, I'm a Khajiit Templar (magicka). I chose the race because I've always liked Khajiit, but I admit I was fighting the urge to min/max with another race because I never play stealth characters so I thought the racial bonuses would go to waste.

I ended up maxing the Khajiit racial bonuses (except the weapon damage) and they proved very useful for solo questing. From a RP stand-point, stealth is what makes a Khajiit a Khajiit and even a learned scholar and healer has to eat! Well, that's what he tells the guards, anyway....

Bottom line, if your goal is end-game raiding or high-level PvP, then min/maxing is worth it and I can see people taking advantage of that if they ever untied the racial bonuses from the race. For now, if you're new and on the fence, let the racial bonuses (disadvantages?) open up other avenues of play.

logarifmik

Endorsed. Considering overall game design course, it'll fit game perfectly. Regarding lore, I don't see how it can break anything.

Doctordarkspawn

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Oh, look, another idea which hinges upon throwing out all the elder scrolls lore about what the races are good at just so people can cherry-pick their passives regardless of racial selection!

No.
I would hate this, as it steps -way- beyond TES lore.
Stop trying break the lore just so you don't have to make -choices-!

This IS an integral part of TES games, that the different races all have disctinct advantages in some fields. Altmer being all magica, redguards being all sword-happy, nords being all tough and so on... sure they don't -have- to follow that path, and sometimes someone who doesn't becomes exceptionally good at it - but that IS why people like Shalidor are remembered, because they are the -exception- to the rule! Noone cares about an altmer archmage, since you can hardly throw a stone into TES history without hitting a dozend of those... but the one nord who manages to become a master mage, that one is remembered because he did not have that "elf blood priviledge" giving him a leg up from the start!

...


Now, a way more fruitful discussion would be to talk about changing things so the racial passives do not have that much of an endgame impact to lead all people into "must have" thinking... allowing all races to hit some ceiling if they choose, just requiring more effort from those not racially advantaged in some way (bring back softcaps!)

...


Or talk about leaving the current passives as they are in tone, but changing something in their effect. Like for example, replacing amm "percentage bonus" type passives with a regeneration rate boost instead, and then add a new set of passives for the stat bonus, a set of "cultural" passives for example where you can freely choose which one you pick for your character, like... grown up in a noble or scholar household among books and tutors, gain magica advantage, grown up in a commoners household helping the family business all day long, gain stamina advantage, grown up among exiles living in the wilds, gain health advantage...

People allways throw around "L O R E" like it's some sort of excuse when we see time and again exceptions to the rules somewhat disprove it.

There will allways be exceptions to culture. There will allways be iconoclasts. There will allways be nordic clever men, elves who simply cant learn to use magic no matter how hard they try, and Orc assassins every once and a while.

People should learn to embrace these differences instead of trying to pretend they dont exist. If it was lorebreaking, the devs wouldn't keep making these characters.

TLDR: It wasn't breaking lore then, it wont be now.

PlagueSD

Daus wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Roll your nord warden as a tank, stop crying, and go back to whatever cave you came out from. This is a TES MMO, were races matter. We are not equal, and should not be treated as such.

You know if you read the lore Nords are suppose to be these power warriors. It's a shame their in game passives don't reflect that. It's the odd ball of EP.

Best EP healer: Argonian
Best EP tank: Argonian
Best EP mag DPS: Dark Elf
Best EP stam DPS: Argonian

The ONLY reason argonians are like that is because of the resourceful racial that makes ANY potion they use a tri-pot. THAT needs to go.

Resourceful:
Rank III

• Increases your Max Magicka by 3%.
• Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina

They don't need to slot tri-pots. They can just use whatever potion they want. Crit, damage, etc.

ANGEL_BtVS

The current setup promotes stereotyping. Oh, you're a Nord? Pfft, you sux at the magix - just stand there and hold that shield (and only be third best at doing so). Oh, and ignore the fact that ESO lore contains powerful Nord mages - again, you are the sux.

Kodrac

While I would love more build diversity, there should be some way of showing that magical elves are better at magic classes than drunken nords (for example). Racials are probably the best way to do that. Nords could use some racial love though,

Apherius

If you start with a Bosmer, you shoud keep the Bosmer racial skill line forever.
We shouldn't be able to change our racial skill line ( except if you buy a race change token in crownstore ).

This wouldn't fit with lore, they just need to add a " Face Sculptor " like in Skyrim, So we could just change the apparence of our character, this wouldn't work like Plastic surgery but more like a" permanent illusion", and you would keep the racial skill line you had when you created your char.

The NPC could be one of the greatest illusionist of Tamriel who decided to travel around tamriel and sell his services.

Do you knew that there was a " Face Sculptor " in skyrim who studied in Cloudrest ? ( Yes, The next raid coming with Summerset ! )

Recremen

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

Never mind all the canonical orcs running around in light armor casting magicka skills as shamans, priests, or even just general-purpose mages. Never mind all the Altmer warriors canonically running around swinging swords in heavy armor defending Vulkhel Guard and the like.

Did you know that one orc woman was actually so good at unarmored combat that they wrote a book about her fighting off an entire bandit troop in nothing but her wedding dress? The Wraith's Wedding Dowry

SirCritical

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

I'm advocating a change from racials to an archetype that you choose upon character creation.

...

Play As You Want©

And give us customisable items sets too

Kendaric

Recremen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

Never mind all the canonical orcs running around in light armor casting magicka skills as shamans, priests, or even just general-purpose mages. Never mind all the Altmer warriors canonically running around swinging swords in heavy armor defending Vulkhel Guard and the like.

Did you know that one orc woman was actually so good at unarmored combat that they wrote a book about her fighting off an entire bandit troop in nothing but her wedding dress? The Wraith's Wedding Dowry

And nothing in ESO prevents you from going against the racial stereotype. People will do just fine in most content, regardless of their race.

Sure, if you're into min/maxing you'll have to use the best race for your characters, but for everything else you don't have to.

Yzalirk

Slick_007 wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

For a game that is “play as/who you want,” race can be somewhat of a burden due to racial passives. Also, the vestige is depicted as a powerful person so regardless of what race you are, you should be the strongest regardless.

i suggest you take a refresher on the 'play as you want' line and stop misusing it like it always is when it suits players who dont like something. Go look up what ZOS actually said with it.

Nah, I’m good.

Recremen

Kendaric wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

Never mind all the canonical orcs running around in light armor casting magicka skills as shamans, priests, or even just general-purpose mages. Never mind all the Altmer warriors canonically running around swinging swords in heavy armor defending Vulkhel Guard and the like.

Did you know that one orc woman was actually so good at unarmored combat that they wrote a book about her fighting off an entire bandit troop in nothing but her wedding dress? The Wraith's Wedding Dowry

And nothing in ESO prevents you from going against the racial stereotype. People will do just fine in most content, regardless of their race.

Sure, if you're into min/maxing you'll have to use the best race for your characters, but for everything else you don't have to.

@Kendaric

Right but the argument is whether or not races should have unique bonuses at all, not whether or not people will do fine for "most content". Outside of game mechanics the lore does not really support the idea that x race is inherently better at y task.

Kendaric

Recremen wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

Never mind all the canonical orcs running around in light armor casting magicka skills as shamans, priests, or even just general-purpose mages. Never mind all the Altmer warriors canonically running around swinging swords in heavy armor defending Vulkhel Guard and the like.

Did you know that one orc woman was actually so good at unarmored combat that they wrote a book about her fighting off an entire bandit troop in nothing but her wedding dress? The Wraith's Wedding Dowry

And nothing in ESO prevents you from going against the racial stereotype. People will do just fine in most content, regardless of their race.

Sure, if you're into min/maxing you'll have to use the best race for your characters, but for everything else you don't have to.

@Kendaric

Right but the argument is whether or not races should have unique bonuses at all, not whether or not people will do fine for "most content". Outside of game mechanics the lore does not really support the idea that x race is inherently better at y task.

@Recremen

Yes and no... of course there are incidents in the lore where individuals of certain races rise to greatness in areas in which their race is not normally talented in. Those, however, are exceptions not the rule.
Lorewise Altmer and Bretons are generally more gifted in magic than Nords, Redguards or Orcs. The racials in ESO are there to represent that, they do not exist to allow us to emulate those special individuals like Shalidor. They are special and therefore NPCs for a reason, because otherwise you'd end up with a "if everyone is special, no one really is" situation.

And that's what we have in ESO, we can play as an Orc wizard or Altmer knight and be successful. Will we ever be as good as someone whose chosen profession matches his race? No, but neither should we.

notimetocare

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

I'm advocating a change from racials to an archetype that you choose upon character creation.

How will it work?
Simple, any current racial skill lines will be a skill line that you can choose upon character creation. These skill lines are already balanced out against each other, and thus this breaks nothing balance-wise. What this basically does is that it allows you to choose what race your character is without compromising on your min/maxing habits.

Want to play an optimal magicka character that so happens to be a redguard? You can do that with this change. Without compromising your min/maxing desires.
Want to be a badass nightblade with your Breton (Just like in the cinematics), you can do that with this change. Without compromising your min/maxing desires.

There will be naysayers, there always are, but think a bit about this, naysayer, how would this change adversely affect you?

My story:
I have a nord warden, he fits perfectly thematically, but I have this gamer gene that compels me to optimize characters, but I can't, because of his racials not lending themselves to a magicka build.

Play As You Want©

No. The is TES not some other world where everyone is everything

MLGProPlayer

This would be awesome.

Strider__Roshin

For everyone saying that it would be lore breaking. That was done upon this game's inception by making the merchant race imperials better warriors that the warrior race Nords.

TheShadowScout

Recremen wrote: »

What I'm talking about is differences between in-game races who roughly occupy the same physiological niche, namely "normal-height humanoids".

But you are trying to proclaim there are no differences and every single person should be able to cherry-pick their passives as they wish regardless of race.
Sorry, that's not how it works.
That's not how any of this works.

Recremen wrote: »

I'm curious why you're sticking with this talk of "genetics"...

Well, what do you think makes races different if not their genes?
You think that only happened when science advanced enough for people to figure it out?
...
Admittedly, in a magical world, there may be more to it then just genetics. Mystic whatevers in their blood... or the composition of their souls... or various other things I guess.
Doesn't change the fact that some races are good at some things and other races are good at other things - by decree of the loremakers who wanted races to be -different- in their game universe, and thus assigned each race some racial predispositions when they first wrote the lore.
That is undenyable, no matter how hard you try to deny it.
But as I keep saying -how- this game depicts those bits of the world lore, that is something open to discussion and adjustment...

Recremen wrote: »

If a "race", such as it is, has a physiological difference between another race then it will show up in 100% members of that race. If not, it's not really a characteristic of that race, is it? Your couch potato example is particularly telling. If they have a genetic predisposition towards being strong (more fast-twitch muscle fibers, preferential glycogen uptake, etc.) then they're going to be stronger even without working out.

So you are saying, if someone has a genetic disposition for strength yet never ever lifts a single finger to build up some muscle, they will be stronger as someone who has no such disposition but trains all the time?
I call BS on that!
Yes, they would be stronger then a similarly couch potato-ish person without the genetic advantage, but I am guessing that would not mean all that much compared to someone who actually used their muscles in their life.

Recremen wrote: »

Do we see this in the lore? No, no we don't. In fact, the lore is rife with examples of people remarkably unaffected by their alleged racial propensity for this or that skillset.

Well, duh!
As I keep saying whenever someone brings up Shalidor for example, to be remembered people have to do something -special-!
What is so difficult to understand about this?
Noone remembers all those many, many exceptional nord warriors... they are a dime a dozend in nord history... but the one nord that managed to become an exceptional mage -despite- the race not predisposed towards easy handling of magica, that one IS remembered.

Recremen wrote: »

Indeed, one of the most common themes in the lore is "everyone is good at everything."

Oh? So the lore does not state that Altmer are "the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races" or that Redguards are "the most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel" in the game-descriptions of those races?
Yeah, riiiight...

Recremen wrote: »

Everyone race is known for their fierce warriors of this or that type. Every race is known for having a robust magickal tradition in one form or another. Every race has a caste of expert craftspeople. And on and on. The more lore you read with your eyes open, the more you see that nobody is special just for being a particular race.

You are confusing racial predisposition with profession here.
The lore says altmer are the most gifted at magic. It doesn't day they all are mages and nothing else - that would be silly, really.
Same for every other race.
Every race has every type of professions, BUT they also have a racial disposition towards something according to the TES lore that made the races different in some ways. Which in turn is a shadow of older fantasy roleplaying - it is a staple of that genre that races have differences...

Take other universes, the ones elder scrolls grew from. Elves in D&D were different from humans in their abilities, and dwarves were different from the others as well. There it was some attributes that got changed, in the elder scrolls games they used other ways to distinguish and diversify their races (differtent ways in different games, even, as their game system got changed over time and with new ideas how to handle the game mechanics).
Doesn't mean every elf in D&D is gonna end up being a swordsman or archer just because they have a racial bonus to long sword and bow, and just like that it won't mean characters in TES games have to have a racial passive for stamina to be a warrior or a racial passive for magica to be a mage.

Recremen wrote: »

You know what we do see in the lore, though? People talking about how great their race is at this or that. Oh yeah Khajiit are great sneaks, you trust. And Dunmer have a peerless swordsmanship tradition, so skilled they are with the long blade. Oh until you go read Last Scabbard of Akrash, where the Khajiit keeps besting Dunmer slavers with swordplay but is done in by a sneaky move from a Dunmer's poisoned needle. Oh and then there's The Mystery of Talara, where a whole host of Bretons could solve all their problems with magick, but don't, because they aren't actually good at it.

And I say again... that is how such stories become worthy of being written into books, because they are -exceptional-!
All those times khajiit slaves tried to fight back and were cut down, those don't make it into lorebooks.
But the one who actually managed to kill a couple of slavers on the other hand... although, the way the story goes, it seemed to me it was more about surprise murder in the streets of morrowind then fighting fair duels, right?
As for the bretons, well... that tale has quite a few bits of bretons being -good- at magic, but some who not very smart about how to use it, does it not? Which is completely in line with the general lore, is it not? After all, just because someone has a racial advantage in magica handling due to some elven blood mixed into their history eras past, it does not mean they will have great experience in how to use their magic -right- in any given situation yes?

Recremen wrote: »

Seriously, please take some time to examine the lore a little more closely. A casual in the lore looks at it and believes it all at face value. A scholar looks for the instances where people are lying or exaggerating.

I am looking at it from multiple directions, and there is a difference between game-lore, which is basically the loremakers telling people playing the game how things are, and in-game lore, which are basically the tales of the people of the land, many grown in the telling...

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There will allways be exceptions to culture. There will allways be iconoclasts. There will allways be nordic clever men, elves who simply cant learn to use magic no matter how hard they try, and Orc assassins every once and a while.

True, but as I pointed out, that has -nothing- to do with racial passives, and everything to do with individual people.
Just because you play as nord, doesn't mean you have to have a stamina character - you can put all your points into magica and be a clever nord mage. Just because you are playing an elf, doesn't mean you have top put all your points into magica, and justr because you play as orc, doesn#t mean you cannot be a sneaky nightblade assassin.
its all possible, -despite- the racial passives portraving the genral racial flavor. Doesn't mean those NPCs got to cherry-pick their passives now, does it?
And sometimes its actually fun to play with such a slight handicap!

But that is -exactly- why I keep suggesting other ways to better diversify characters then just letting people have free passive selection, ways that don't throw out the established lore about racial predispositions, but add something... like passives for -cultutal- differences within one race, passives for where a character grew up, how they grew up, and what they did before they became adventurers. It would make a lot more sense then just argue to let everyone chery-pick their passives, AND add a lot more wider diversification through various combinations!

Recremen

Kendaric wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

Never mind all the canonical orcs running around in light armor casting magicka skills as shamans, priests, or even just general-purpose mages. Never mind all the Altmer warriors canonically running around swinging swords in heavy armor defending Vulkhel Guard and the like.

Did you know that one orc woman was actually so good at unarmored combat that they wrote a book about her fighting off an entire bandit troop in nothing but her wedding dress? The Wraith's Wedding Dowry

And nothing in ESO prevents you from going against the racial stereotype. People will do just fine in most content, regardless of their race.

Sure, if you're into min/maxing you'll have to use the best race for your characters, but for everything else you don't have to.

@Kendaric

Right but the argument is whether or not races should have unique bonuses at all, not whether or not people will do fine for "most content". Outside of game mechanics the lore does not really support the idea that x race is inherently better at y task.

@Recremen

Yes and no... of course there are incidents in the lore where individuals of certain races rise to greatness in areas in which their race is not normally talented in. Those, however, are exceptions not the rule.
Lorewise Altmer and Bretons are generally more gifted in magic than Nords, Redguards or Orcs. The racials in ESO are there to represent that, they do not exist to allow us to emulate those special individuals like Shalidor. They are special and therefore NPCs for a reason, because otherwise you'd end up with a "if everyone is special, no one really is" situation.

And that's what we have in ESO, we can play as an Orc wizard or Altmer knight and be successful. Will we ever be as good as someone whose chosen profession matches his race? No, but neither should we.

@Kendaric

The lore really doesn't support what you're saying regarding whole-race advantages though. Certain characteristics are attributed to various races, but that happens in real life without any factual basis as well. All we can know is what we can observe. We can observe that many, even most, Altmer have gold skin and are tall-ish. We can observe that Nords have rounded ears. But when we observe behaviors and chosen professions we actually find an enormous variety that flies in the face of these alleged racial propensities. The conclusions we should be drawing is that if there are any racial predispositions towards certain walks of life that go beyond mere cultural trends, then they are overwhelmingly overshadowed by individual differences to the point that they become nonpredictive.

So if there were lore-friendly racial bonuses they should be an order of magnitude less potent than they currently are. That doesn't make for a very helpful game mechanic, though, so if we're going to have any large stat boosts (like 20% stamina) they should reflect individualized training, not some backwards race bonus.

Iluvrien

Recremen wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, it doesn't fit an orc to be a light armor magicka user just as it doesn't fit an altmer to be a heavy armor stamina user. You can do play as you like, the loss will be 1-2k at best.

Never mind all the canonical orcs running around in light armor casting magicka skills as shamans, priests, or even just general-purpose mages. Never mind all the Altmer warriors canonically running around swinging swords in heavy armor defending Vulkhel Guard and the like.

Did you know that one orc woman was actually so good at unarmored combat that they wrote a book about her fighting off an entire bandit troop in nothing but her wedding dress? The Wraith's Wedding Dowry

And nothing in ESO prevents you from going against the racial stereotype. People will do just fine in most content, regardless of their race.

Sure, if you're into min/maxing you'll have to use the best race for your characters, but for everything else you don't have to.

@Kendaric

Right but the argument is whether or not races should have unique bonuses at all, not whether or not people will do fine for "most content". Outside of game mechanics the lore does not really support the idea that x race is inherently better at y task.

Game mechanics are merely how lore is reflected in a directly accessible manner.

In its simplest form, gravity itself is both lore and game mechanic.

If TES was a purely written/visual medium (TV or movie) with no access to the underlying mechanical structures then the divisive approach would be reasonable. However, this is a game series and we do have access to some of the underlying mechanics of the world. Shouldn’t we include those too?