[Summerset] ZOS please revert Sunder/NMG changes, and improve Alkosh

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Say hello to the magicka meta I guess.
I hope the nerfs aren't too heavy. Don't wanna go back to 8 magsorc/magnb dds..
Diversity is good, if stamina is overperforming, a nerf to sets is understandable, but making both sunder and NMG unviable is a bit too much in my opinion.

Septimus_Magna · April 2018

The changes to NMG and Sunderflame feel very counter intuitive. They said they wanted to increase diversity but by making these debuffs minor/major fracture it only reduces diversity because all stam builds will wear the same selfish dmg sets. With maybe one exception for Morag Tong.

If they want to go through with these changes it might be a good solution to build a stacking penetration passive into the Medium Armor passives. That would also give meduim armor builds something useful in PVP.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

Edziu wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.

Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta

stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.

and @Maura_Neysa

problemw ith this weapon this penetrations is comming only after every other armor reduction like just major fracture, youre penetration from cp, sets etc.....when boss have this 18k resist I see you think maces are ignoring flat 20% armor from this so it is 3.6k penetration for you ( I dont think you have even played stamina as you dont know how maces work)
but in practice its:
18.2k > major fracture -5.2k resists reduced = 13k > alkosh -3k = 10k > crusher enchant -1.6k = 8.4k and here we will take 20% armor ignore from mace wchich will be less thn 1.7k additional penetration

btw not included even cp for some additional penetration and optional 1.5k from kragh which will make even less effective mace and didnt included nmg with sunderflame as this is example for "very useful maces" penetration after nefrs to nmg with sunderflame

will you equip dual maces just to get pathetic additional maybe 1.5k - 1.7k penetration replacing by this 5-10% for crit with/or additional bleed from axes? I dont think even additional 2k penetration will be worth for this price

No I'm say quit crying because your OP build is going to have to perform the same as the mag classes. We'll drop points in Mighty/Term/Precise/Master to get hit pen cap and will hit 35k maybe 40k just like the mag.
Adapt or die. Crying won't save anyone.

Morgul667 · April 2018

Reverting NMG and Sunder to group sets look like a smat move

Edziu · April 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.

Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta

stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.

and @Maura_Neysa

problemw ith this weapon this penetrations is comming only after every other armor reduction like just major fracture, youre penetration from cp, sets etc.....when boss have this 18k resist I see you think maces are ignoring flat 20% armor from this so it is 3.6k penetration for you ( I dont think you have even played stamina as you dont know how maces work)
but in practice its:
18.2k > major fracture -5.2k resists reduced = 13k > alkosh -3k = 10k > crusher enchant -1.6k = 8.4k and here we will take 20% armor ignore from mace wchich will be less thn 1.7k additional penetration

btw not included even cp for some additional penetration and optional 1.5k from kragh which will make even less effective mace and didnt included nmg with sunderflame as this is example for "very useful maces" penetration after nefrs to nmg with sunderflame

will you equip dual maces just to get pathetic additional maybe 1.5k - 1.7k penetration replacing by this 5-10% for crit with/or additional bleed from axes? I dont think even additional 2k penetration will be worth for this price

No I'm say quit crying because your OP build is going to have to perform the same as the mag classes. We'll drop points in Mighty/Term/Precise/Master to get hit pen cap and will hit 35k maybe 40k just like the mag.
Adapt or die. Crying won't save anyone.

I tagged you here because you quoted @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO with maces penetration for staminas..so I aplained here to never ever try mention maces to dps as how pathetic maces work with scaling to penetration, not about entire your post before so dont take it to much and dont explain me more about overal

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

Edziu wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.

Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta

stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.

and @Maura_Neysa

problemw ith this weapon this penetrations is comming only after every other armor reduction like just major fracture, youre penetration from cp, sets etc.....when boss have this 18k resist I see you think maces are ignoring flat 20% armor from this so it is 3.6k penetration for you ( I dont think you have even played stamina as you dont know how maces work)
but in practice its:
18.2k > major fracture -5.2k resists reduced = 13k > alkosh -3k = 10k > crusher enchant -1.6k = 8.4k and here we will take 20% armor ignore from mace wchich will be less thn 1.7k additional penetration

btw not included even cp for some additional penetration and optional 1.5k from kragh which will make even less effective mace and didnt included nmg with sunderflame as this is example for "very useful maces" penetration after nefrs to nmg with sunderflame

will you equip dual maces just to get pathetic additional maybe 1.5k - 1.7k penetration replacing by this 5-10% for crit with/or additional bleed from axes? I dont think even additional 2k penetration will be worth for this price

No I'm say quit crying because your OP build is going to have to perform the same as the mag classes. We'll drop points in Mighty/Term/Precise/Master to get hit pen cap and will hit 35k maybe 40k just like the mag.
Adapt or die. Crying won't save anyone.

I tagged you here because you quoted @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO with maces penetration for staminas..so I aplained here to never ever try mention maces to dps as how pathetic maces work with scaling to penetration, not about entire your post before so dont take it to much and dont explain me more about overal

I am fully aware of how maces work. See here, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4268147#Comment_4268147
And here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3992617#Comment_3992617 and here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2696308#Comment_2696308

My comment was to point out that with the armor set nerfs, it seems they are trying to cut down on the group buffs Stam has and make maces more viable. I did not go through the math because I didn't have time.

I am fully aware that if the target has more then major fracture on it, maces are worse then swords and probably worse then daggers, the 8% proc chance from axes is hard to quantify. It is funny to me that people are talking about going back to sharpened when you could probably use a nirn mace or infused mace off hand and get better results.

I made that comment to remind people that maces exist. That Stam does have penetration other then sets. I totally see the devaluing of these sets as a way to make maces more valuable.

I am fully aware that unless the target has more then major fracture on, maces are about as good as swords (if they were a true 2.5%) and more consistent then both daggers and axes, whose 8% bleed is wildly inconsistent. I want to remind people of maces because sharpened is 1376 on a one hander and a mace is 10%. Again if you have more then major fracture on the target, maces pen losses but I think it would be worth testing to see if your loss is made up for by having nirn/infused like right now. Instead of nirn/sharp that some some people are suggesting.

People ought to be asking for a buff to maces, as you could drop pen from other sources and get more raw damage if the 10 or 20% was before all other debuffs, so in pve, you would always get 1820 or 3640 pen from a mace.

ol_BANK_lo · April 2018

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Not to mention, I am so tired of farming the crap out of sets, transumuting them, only to have them rendered useless by ZOS. Please, please explain to me the logic behind this. And ZOS wonders why people get burned out on their game.

Last patch I leveled a stam dk, because groups were running 3 of them in trials. And when I level, I level everything (including legerdemain, all crafts, etc). I then get/make, transmute and gold out Morag Tong armor/weapons, NMG armor/weaopns and Sunderflame armor/weapons. Now, this patch, no one runs stam dks, which renders my character and MT useless, and now ZOS kills NMG and Sunder.

This...is....burning...me....out. Every....single...patch...it's...something.

@ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Not to mention, I am so tired of farming the crap out of sets, transumuting them, only to have them rendered useless by ZOS. Please, please explain to me the logic behind this. And ZOS wonders why people get burned out on their game.

Last patch I leveled a stam dk, because groups were running 3 of them in trials. And when I level, I level everything (including legerdemain, all crafts, etc). I then get/make, transmute and gold out Morag Tong armor/weapons, NMG armor/weaopns and Sunderflame armor/weapons. Now, this patch, no one runs stam dks, which renders my character and MT useless, and now ZOS kills NMG and Sunder.

This...is....burning...me....out. Every....single...patch...it's...something.

@ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

just level 10 toons, if you want to be safe. one mag dps and one stam dps.

kylewwefan · April 2018

I guess we have to wait and see what happens. That change would make 2 sets fairly worthless for 3 classes so I kind of doubt it will go through, but you never know?

Wasn’t mother sorrow and some other set supposed to be hot stuff on PTS some time ago and then there were live changes that made it all not so great.

MaxwellC · April 2018

@StoicSunbro
Keep Alkosh jewelry at Robust so I can hold my shield up, making it healthy doesn't benefit me at all as I get my health from my armour as many other tanks do.

Inarre · April 2018

Think out of the box. This gives room for new metas

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

...

MaxwellC wrote: »

@StoicSunbro
Keep Alkosh jewelry at Robust so I can hold my shield up, making it healthy doesn't benefit me at all as I get my health from my armour as many other tanks do.

Transmute jewelry is comming this argument is pointless. Especially given Infused Shield Play enchantments are also coming.

Now feel free to argue the useless 2-4 piece on Alkosh to a tank

Jhalin · April 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.

Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta

stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.

That is the dumbest thing I've read today. If something becomes appealing by comparison because other options got nerfed into the ground, thats not what a sensible person calls a buff.

If they wanted to encourage mace usage, then they would have bumped up its base pen while lowering the max value on group pen sets.

But this isn't balance, it's just another way to force raiders to grind out more gear post-Summerset for no good reason.

BuddyAces · April 2018

So if nothing is given but we lose those two sets are we going towards lover + twice born star + tfs + sharpened + kraghs + whatever 5 piece dps set you have left that's gold?

Celestro · April 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.

Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta

stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.

and @Maura_Neysa

problemw ith this weapon this penetrations is comming only after every other armor reduction like just major fracture, youre penetration from cp, sets etc.....when boss have this 18k resist I see you think maces are ignoring flat 20% armor from this so it is 3.6k penetration for you ( I dont think you have even played stamina as you dont know how maces work)
but in practice its:
18.2k > major fracture -5.2k resists reduced = 13k > alkosh -3k = 10k > crusher enchant -1.6k = 8.4k and here we will take 20% armor ignore from mace wchich will be less thn 1.7k additional penetration

btw not included even cp for some additional penetration and optional 1.5k from kragh which will make even less effective mace and didnt included nmg with sunderflame as this is example for "very useful maces" penetration after nefrs to nmg with sunderflame

will you equip dual maces just to get pathetic additional maybe 1.5k - 1.7k penetration replacing by this 5-10% for crit with/or additional bleed from axes? I dont think even additional 2k penetration will be worth for this price

No I'm say quit crying because your OP build is going to have to perform the same as the mag classes. We'll drop points in Mighty/Term/Precise/Master to get hit pen cap and will hit 35k maybe 40k just like the mag.
Adapt or die. Crying won't save anyone.

Geez, someone is needlessly hostile. "Adapt or die."

Regardless, it's not the build that's OP. Stam generally hit 40k w/ a source of Major Fracture now. At least Magsorc and MagNB can do the same. Hopefully, the others will be able to raise to the occasion as well, but that's not in a group setting, which should be different. In these group settings, if stam are reduced to the level of magicka dps, they no longer have any allure to bring into trials excluding maybe stamplar. It's not a matter of 'adapt or die". It's about destroying diversity which should exist in a game. Being forced to play any one particular thing over another is never good, even if that has been the case for some time with classes, sets among other things in the game, which is practically what you and others that seem to have a hate for stam are promoting for by acting in such a manner. It makes no sense.

techprince · April 2018

On khajiit stamblade, i replaced NMG+Warrior Mundus with Briarheart + Lover Mundus.

Capt_Morgan · April 2018

Royaji wrote: »

Ok, so changing Alkosh is a bit of a no go since it takes the stam DD set from MoL. Unless as was mentioned by others we make Alkosh tanking set and change (read scrap and entirely replace) Lunar Bastion. This is not going to happen.

Alkosh is not a tanking set. It was never intended to be a tanking set. But it's pretty much a staple for tanking. Why? Because ZOS has no idea how to design tanking sets. Like, absolutely. None. Tanking meta is still stuck with the sets that are either not designed for tanks (NMG, SPC, Alkosh) or were base game sets (Ebon, Akaviri Dragonguard). Have you seen a tank run Lunar Bastion or Inventor's Guard? Any of the Yokeda sets? Ironblood? Imperium? Leeching? I don't even remeber the names of the tanking sets from Dragon Bones dungenons.

Every set ZOS designs for tanks is lackluster (Imeprium), designed for bad tanks (Eternal Yokeda) or only gives pure tankiness (Lunar Bastion). You don't need tanky sets to tank. Attacks are either one-shots or spaced out enoguh to heal through. Tanks want support sets. And Alkosh fits right into the giant support-sized hole in tanking gear.

So as I said, either they have no idea how to design tanking sets or deliberatly keep tanking sets without any support to reign in group damage (since DDs always cry much more louder if they get nerfed).

I have tanked every hardmode trial in this game and have done so competitively with my selfish set being imperium or lunar bastion. Having a shield applied to all the melee DPS is worth quite a bit. There are a lot of mechanics in this game where lunar bastion is actually really freaking good. A 2k shield every 2 seconds, which for a dps is 10% or more of their HP is actually pretty strong. vHoF hardmode execute phase, vHRC hardmode starfall, vAA hardmode when Astros explode. There are so many instances where mitigation sets are useful. And for most groups I'd argue that they spend way too much time "progressing" on hardmode because they think they need to maximize damage like no other.

So many Endgame groups take months to progress through content that they could take a couple weeks to learn. "Progression" should be starting off learning the trial while making it as easy on yourself as possible, and for that maximizing DPS isn't the answer. Maximizing survivability is. Running infused to rugs weakening on the boss, shielding the group with lunar bastion. Allowing the dps to make little mistakes while you learn the mechanics. Not forcing everyone to go balls to the walls hardcore and expecting them to not make any mistakes for your first clear. There is room for these sets and just because they're unwanted for the TOP score runs, doesn't mean they are unwanted overall.

Right now even, number 9 score for pc NA on vHoF hardmode was done with the main tank in Lunar Bastion / Imperium with 2pc lord warden. These aren't "trash" sets. And not "no one" runs them.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

Jhalin wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.

Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta

stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.

That is the dumbest thing I've read today. If something becomes appealing by comparison because other options got nerfed into the ground, thats not what a sensible person calls a buff.

Hey thanks for calling me dumb, real classy bub. And don't give me the whole "but I wasn't calling *you* dumb, just what you said", it is the same thing and we both know that.

This is how zos works, nerf the things that work too good so that this that aren't being use get used, see the way they nerfed temps time after time to make the other classes look good. They are finally buffing classes because other classes are still not up to par with temp heals and they still nerf temps at the same time, see the breath of Life nerf.

If they wanted to encourage mace usage, then they would have bumped up its base pen while lowering the max value on group pen sets.

That is what they did by having the sets give debuffs that are the same as stuff we already have. This does what you are asking for, just not the way you want.

But this isn't balance, it's just another way to force raiders to grind out more gear post-Summerset for no good reason.

You so do not need to grind anything with the next patch, you can literally craft hundings or julinanos and mechanical acuity and be within 3-7% of the top end dps. With a monster set of your choice as well.

StoicSunbro · April 2018

Let's try to keep the discussion civil.

A bit off topic, but as a Dark Souls fan, every enemy having the exact same 18k resistances to every damage type is a bit shallow. Botth games have physical, magic, shock, fire, poison, etc but in Dark Souls each enemy has weaknesses and soft immunities.

Imagine mag dks or sorcs having a slight edge in certain content because that content's enemies are weak or resistant against fire or shock damage.

Way too dramatic of an idea to fit into Summerset though, but long term it might be interesting and add another layer of gameplay.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · April 2018

i have a better idea...yes 1st pls do reverse AND make proc sets able to crit!

IwakuraLain42 · April 2018

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Not to mention, I am so tired of farming the crap out of sets, transumuting them, only to have them rendered useless by ZOS. Please, please explain to me the logic behind this. And ZOS wonders why people get burned out on their game.

It's called "gear progression". TESO doesn't have a vertical progression by gear level (won't work with the changes introduced with 1T anyway) and to keep people busy they need to change the META every few months, just to keep them in the hamster wheel. Every MMORPG does that, TESO just does it more often then others ...

Silver_Strider · April 2018

I'm honestly heartbroken that NMG+Sunderflame are getting nerfed. NMG I guess I can tolerate since it's a crafted set but Sunderflame is a dungeon set that takes a good bit to get and losing that farming time is a bit of a slap to the face. I'd prefer it to be altered to provide Minor Fracture + Breech so it would still be somewhat useful in group settings.

As for Alkosh being switched to provide Tank benefits for it's 2-4 piece bonuses, I'd prefer if they just buffed the other ACTUAL tank sets to be better. Alkosh doesn't provide enough incentive to use as a DPS set over VO or War Machine that it's not going to be used by a Stamina DPS but Tank sets are so crap that Alkosh just fills that void almost perfectly. What if the Shield provided by Lunar Bastion did damage to enemies while giving X weapon/spell damage to all allies? What if Immortal Yokudan gave everyone Major Heroism and reduced Ultimate costs by 5%? These are buffs that, while not as good as Alkosh, would at least make those Tank sets more attractive to utilize instead of these crap buffs that no one uses.

As for Alkosh itself, from a DPS standpoint, Alkosh is on the meh side of the fence. VO is the king of sustain sets as far as Stamina DPS goes and War Machine is great for Warden and NBs as it buffs their DPS while providing a good support ability to allies. Alkosh is a set that, on its own, does very little to boost your DPS and requires a good coordinated group to function, killing a lot of its potential as a DPS set. Even if it was given a new effect on top of its current debuff, since the DPS can only be applied by 1 person at a time with all subsequent applications just refresh the duration, it would still fall behind as a DPS set.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

Perhaps buff the damage that Sunderflame does on proc, and instead have it apply Minor Fracture rather than Major. That would at least be a good start from what the current game plan is.

MehrunesFlagon · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Perhaps buff the damage that Sunderflame does on proc, and instead have it apply Minor Fracture rather than Major. That would at least be a good start from what the current game plan is.

It shouldn't be a 5 piece bonus that can come from a skill.

Mister_DMC · April 2018

It's a bad idea to nerf those sets. Group planning and cooperation should never be penalized. Zos wanted to encourage diversity by making these sets redundant but they don't fully grasp how the community works. This actually decreases diversity as there is no replacement for penetration so the go to set now becomes Twice Fanged Serpent for every stamina character.

If stamina Dps is brought down to be equal with Magicka DPS then the raid leaders (myself included) will simply ask for all Magicka DPS. This is a bad choice.

Colecovision · April 2018

I’m kind of not seeing this as a nerf, but more of simply deleting the set. I don’t have any solo rotations that don’t already apply major fracture. Tanks have pierce for groups. What’s the point of these sets at all after this? It’s a lot of farming down the drain. At the very least, do something fun. Doesn’t need to be BiS.

How about fire damage for sunderflame? Maybe it can proc your weapon into a sun sword for 8 seconds. What was the day night sword from shivering isles? Maybe the main hand weapon becomes that. Blue flames or orange depending on time of day in game. Just do something. Anything. Please don’t make it vendor trash. And please don’t pretend major fracture is an actual thing when it’s already on most bosses.

Aesthier · April 2018

Silver_Strider

I too am heartbroken over this change but more about NMG. Due to RL situation I don't get the opportunity to play as much as I would really like so that limits me in my ability to really push endgame content.

NMG was a set that was readily available for me to craft at 160 and know that I wouldn't be replacing it any time soon. It had real staying power and would help me through most of the group content I would need to farm my other sets in. I could actually upgrade it and know that I wasn't just wasting the resources doing so because it would take me months to replace it with better.

Again I am not an example of where most players are at and many are better at the theory crafting and speed at which they obtain items.

Just sucks that another decent "goto" crafted set that one can begin a solid base on is being hatcheted.

Its almost like they don't want any crafted sets being valuable anymore and are trying to knock them out one by one.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@MehrunesFlagon

Hence the damage proc buff. This would be the larger focus of the 5pc with the Minor Fracture being a nice bonus, especially for solo content. Large enough to warrant wearing it in the trial if you're running with a DK that applies the +10% damage buff to fire damage, but not too large to make it BiS on proc if a DK is in the Trial.

Get it to the point that it becomes BiS for Stam DPS if there is a DK in the Trial, and there are no other sources of Minor Fracture. Balancing it this way would cause it to be pretty good even in random encounters, but not too good as to be overpowered. Though it would probably need a kind of telegraph in PvP, like causing your arms to glow with fire while charging your heavy attack while the proc is up. Oh, it'd also need to have a cooldown applied to it as well, such that the damage of the proc can be buffed, so it can better fit into rotations.

So, in general: (Basing it off of Red Mountain Proc, then reducing it by a little bit since Minor Fracture, and a bit more since RM is % chance)
5-piece:
Fully charged Heavy Attacks deal an additional 9,800 Fire Damage and apply Minor Fracture for 8 seconds. This can happen every 4 seconds.

(The value would actually need to be balanced based on the general DPS boost that a player can get from sets like RM or Way of Fire)

MehrunesFlagon · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@MehrunesFlagon

Hence the damage proc buff. This would be the larger focus of the 5pc with the Minor Fracture being a nice bonus, especially for solo content. Large enough to warrant wearing it in the trial if you're running with a DK that applies the +10% damage buff to fire damage, but not too large to make it BiS on proc if a DK is in the Trial.

Get it to the point that it becomes BiS for Stam DPS if there is a DK in the Trial, and there are no other sources of Minor Fracture. Balancing it this way would cause it to be pretty good even in random encounters, but not too good as to be overpowered. Though it would probably need a kind of telegraph in PvP, like causing your arms to glow with fire while charging your heavy attack while the proc is up. Oh, it'd also need to have a cooldown applied to it as well, such that the damage of the proc can be buffed, so it can better fit into rotations.

So, in general: (Basing it off of Red Mountain Proc, then reducing it by a little bit since Minor Fracture, and a bit more since RM is % chance)
5-piece:
Fully charged Heavy Attacks deal an additional 9,800 Fire Damage and apply Minor Fracture for 8 seconds. This can happen every 4 seconds.

(The value would actually need to be balanced based on the general DPS boost that a player can get from sets like RM or Way of Fire)

I get what you were saying,but I would rather see it stay a group synergy set.even if it doesn't resemble it's currrent form

StoicSunbro · April 2018

Bumping because of patch notes.

NMG applies Major Fracture
Sunder applies Minor Breach/Fracture

To reiterate these sets will likely not see anymore use in trials. I'd like to see more group utility sets not less.