Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.
I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.
Improve stam ranged surviability and/or utility and you can have mag melee
That's not a question of stam being bad at ranged but of magicka melee being so far behind.
My point is if mag can be good at both melee and ranged, why cant stam?
Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.
I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.
Improve stam ranged surviability and/or utility and you can have mag melee
That's not a question of stam being bad at ranged but of magicka melee being so far behind.
After reading the edited original post I am curious as to how you think changing the 2, 3, 4 pc set bonuses on alkosh to tank friendly bonuses will encourage the community to move away from using Alkosh for tanking?
Or am I misunderstanding the original post which said you fear these changes to penetration sets for stam dps will cement tanks in their use of alkosh?
Ok, so changing Alkosh is a bit of a no go since it takes the stam DD set from MoL. Unless as was mentioned by others we make Alkosh tanking set and change (read scrap and entirely replace) Lunar Bastion. This is not going to happen.
Alkosh is not a tanking set. It was never intended to be a tanking set. But it's pretty much a staple for tanking. Why? Because ZOS has no idea how to design tanking sets. Like, absolutely. None. Tanking meta is still stuck with the sets that are either not designed for tanks (NMG, SPC, Alkosh) or were base game sets (Ebon, Akaviri Dragonguard). Have you seen a tank run Lunar Bastion or Inventor's Guard? Any of the Yokeda sets? Ironblood? Imperium? Leeching? I don't even remeber the names of the tanking sets from Dragon Bones dungenons.
Every set ZOS designs for tanks is lackluster (Imeprium), designed for bad tanks (Eternal Yokeda) or only gives pure tankiness (Lunar Bastion). You don't need tanky sets to tank. Attacks are either one-shots or spaced out enoguh to heal through. Tanks want support sets. And Alkosh fits right into the giant support-sized hole in tanking gear.
So as I said, either they have no idea how to design tanking sets or deliberatly keep tanking sets without any support to reign in group damage (since DDs always cry much more louder if they get nerfed).
Valkyn_Eltrys wrote: »If Alkosh is changed then Lunar Bastion has to be as well
kringled_1 wrote: »Templar also lacks class access to major fracture (although they have one of the only sources for minor fracture).
Ok, so changing Alkosh is a bit of a no go since it takes the stam DD set from MoL. Unless as was mentioned by others we make Alkosh tanking set and change (read scrap and entirely replace) Lunar Bastion. This is not going to happen.
Alkosh is not a tanking set. It was never intended to be a tanking set. But it's pretty much a staple for tanking. Why? Because ZOS has no idea how to design tanking sets. Like, absolutely. None. Tanking meta is still stuck with the sets that are either not designed for tanks (NMG, SPC, Alkosh) or were base game sets (Ebon, Akaviri Dragonguard). Have you seen a tank run Lunar Bastion or Inventor's Guard? Any of the Yokeda sets? Ironblood? Imperium? Leeching? I don't even remeber the names of the tanking sets from Dragon Bones dungenons.
Every set ZOS designs for tanks is lackluster (Imeprium), designed for bad tanks (Eternal Yokeda) or only gives pure tankiness (Lunar Bastion). You don't need tanky sets to tank. Attacks are either one-shots or spaced out enoguh to heal through. Tanks want support sets. And Alkosh fits right into the giant support-sized hole in tanking gear.
So as I said, either they have no idea how to design tanking sets or deliberatly keep tanking sets without any support to reign in group damage (since DDs always cry much more louder if they get nerfed).
BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »And ZOS wonders why people get burned out on their game.
Avran_Sylt wrote: »Keep the NMG change as it allows any Stam class access to Major Fracture without needing to use a 1h+S in solo environments such as vMA. (Also makes it a great overland set for starting stam chars).
Rework the Sunderflame change into something entirely different.
I'm impartial towards Alkosh.
Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.
I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.
StoicSunbro wrote: »Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.
I think you have a very real concern. I remember the Homestead days of 8 magsorc raids when caltrops did not stack.
Magicka already gets a great deal of Penetration passively from Light Armor. Sunder and NMG helped with the gap and then some. I'd like to see more DPS group buff sets like NMG and Sunder, not less.
Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.
I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.
SaintSubwayy wrote: »Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.
Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta
SaintSubwayy wrote: »Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.
I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.
Only half of that it right...stam dps has to be brought down, however atm magicka meele deals less dmg than magicka ranged. So if stam is nerfed down to meele magicka lvls then noone will run meeles in their group at all.
Magicka meeles need to be brought up to ~3-5k more dps than ranged magickas. And staminas need to be brought down to this lvl.
Maura_Neysa wrote: »Would be interesting to see a Tank friendly Alkosh, however it is a DD set. Just happens to work well on a Tank.
As for Night and Sunder, a bit lame giving them the same 5 piece that is absolutly useless in PvE. On the other hand, its so easy for stam to hit Pen Cap that it really is crying over spilled milk losing those sets.
BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »Wow, this would be a tremendously stupid move on ZOS' part to make these changes to NMG and Sunder. What in the...? Stamina in trials is all about working off each other. NMG, Sunder, War Machine, etc are all used to compliment each other. Now you will have two identical sets except for one piece??? Why do they massively change things no one asked for? These are good unique sets. These sets would die in PVE, maybe moved to PVP, and everyone in PVE would run around with Two Fanged. Ummmm, sounds like the days of every mag toon using TBS or BSW.
I hope this is a joke....
@ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Wrobel
Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »Would be interesting to see a Tank friendly Alkosh, however it is a DD set. Just happens to work well on a Tank.
As for Night and Sunder, a bit lame giving them the same 5 piece that is absolutly useless in PvE. On the other hand, its so easy for stam to hit Pen Cap that it really is crying over spilled milk losing those sets.
stam only hits pen cap with those sets, magika on the other hand only need alkosh crusher, maybe a stamplar and there good stamm needs all that and two sets plus extra cp to top it off so not so easy wen u compare to magika
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »SaintSubwayy wrote: »Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.
Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta
stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.
Maura_Neysa wrote: »Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »Would be interesting to see a Tank friendly Alkosh, however it is a DD set. Just happens to work well on a Tank.
As for Night and Sunder, a bit lame giving them the same 5 piece that is absolutly useless in PvE. On the other hand, its so easy for stam to hit Pen Cap that it really is crying over spilled milk losing those sets.
stam only hits pen cap with those sets, magika on the other hand only need alkosh crusher, maybe a stamplar and there good stamm needs all that and two sets plus extra cp to top it off so not so easy wen u compare to magika
Because TFS and Spriggons don't exist. Everyone running VO + TFS was the Meta a year ago. With only the Tanks Alkosh adding to group Pysical Pen. Not to mention the fact that Stam out performs Mag by 5k DPS easily right now. Do you really think ZoS plan was for Stam to out peform Mag?
Totally forgot about this, but its completely true too.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »SaintSubwayy wrote: »Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.
Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta
stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.
Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »Would be interesting to see a Tank friendly Alkosh, however it is a DD set. Just happens to work well on a Tank.
As for Night and Sunder, a bit lame giving them the same 5 piece that is absolutly useless in PvE. On the other hand, its so easy for stam to hit Pen Cap that it really is crying over spilled milk losing those sets.
stam only hits pen cap with those sets, magika on the other hand only need alkosh crusher, maybe a stamplar and there good stamm needs all that and two sets plus extra cp to top it off so not so easy wen u compare to magika
Because TFS and Spriggons don't exist. Everyone running VO + TFS was the Meta a year ago. With only the Tanks Alkosh adding to group Pysical Pen. Not to mention the fact that Stam out performs Mag by 5k DPS easily right now. Do you really think ZoS plan was for Stam to out peform Mag?
Totally forgot about this, but its completely true too.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »SaintSubwayy wrote: »Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.
Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta
stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.
I don't think you know what the meta was back then please try again. stam additionally outperforms way more then that which makes me believe you don't really know what you are even talking about, more like 15k in an optimal setting. I'm not defending this gross disparity in dps but I do defend that the only way stam will continue to exist in raid is with these current sets existing (and stam needs to pull slightly higher damage to defend its position in a raid). what they need to do is nerf stamblades pve dps potential because as it is now all other stam classes are on par with what they should be hitting to not make them too OP. I'm sure if they decide to go through with the changes there will be a few stamm ppl that will prevail but most convert to magika once again (like the homestead patch) to maintain relevancy. wanting to nerf stam to point they pull equal or less then magika removes them from any and all competitive raiding. as it stands now magika and stamina both raid in equal numbers for the most part (excluding vas hm)
Maura_Neysa wrote: »Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »Would be interesting to see a Tank friendly Alkosh, however it is a DD set. Just happens to work well on a Tank.
As for Night and Sunder, a bit lame giving them the same 5 piece that is absolutly useless in PvE. On the other hand, its so easy for stam to hit Pen Cap that it really is crying over spilled milk losing those sets.
stam only hits pen cap with those sets, magika on the other hand only need alkosh crusher, maybe a stamplar and there good stamm needs all that and two sets plus extra cp to top it off so not so easy wen u compare to magika
Because TFS and Spriggons don't exist. Everyone running VO + TFS was the Meta a year ago. With only the Tanks Alkosh adding to group Pysical Pen. Not to mention the fact that Stam out performs Mag by 5k DPS easily right now. Do you really think ZoS plan was for Stam to out peform Mag?
Totally forgot about this, but its completely true too.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »SaintSubwayy wrote: »Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.
Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta
stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.
I don't think you know what the meta was back then please try again. stam additionally outperforms way more then that which makes me believe you don't really know what you are even talking about, more like 15k in an optimal setting. I'm not defending this gross disparity in dps but I do defend that the only way stam will continue to exist in raid is with these current sets existing (and stam needs to pull slightly higher damage to defend its position in a raid). what they need to do is nerf stamblades pve dps potential because as it is now all other stam classes are on par with what they should be hitting to not make them too OP. I'm sure if they decide to go through with the changes there will be a few stamm ppl that will prevail but most convert to magika once again (like the homestead patch) to maintain relevancy. wanting to nerf stam to point they pull equal or less then magika removes them from any and all competitive raiding. as it stands now magika and stamina both raid in equal numbers for the most part (excluding vas hm)
- I may have the exact dates wrong, but I dont have the Fing endless request to come tank Sanctum for VO and TFS daggers wrong.
- Your 15k is from group Parse numbers, my 5k is from solo Parse numbers. Really though this is what it looks like solo; Stamblade 52k, Stamwarden 49k, StamDK 47k, Magblade 44k, Magsorc/Stamplar 43k, Magplar 41k, Stamsorc 40k, MagDK/Magwarden 38k. At least as best as I can find. I personally cant hit any of those numbers, then again Tanks dont need to.
- Considering Mag are "Higher survivablity" while every one of them slots Harness Magicka and yet ever Stam gets crapped on if they have Vigor (Crit Surge) or anything more then Deadly Cloak, who's fault is that?
- Yes Meta Chasers will in fact chase meta the only reason there aren't currently all Stamina, is because there simply isn't room. They would all nuke each other. If 2x Bow pulled the same numbers as DW&Bow then everyone would be stamina.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »SaintSubwayy wrote: »Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.
Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta
stamina literally has a weapon that gives you 10 or 20% penetration. it is like everyone forgot about mauls and maces. with sunder and NMG gone, mauls got a buff as far as i see.