[Summerset] ZOS please revert Sunder/NMG changes, and improve Alkosh

StoicSunbro · April 2018

I love the changes I saw in Ixtyr's Summerset writeup.

However, one new change is Sunderflame now gives Minor Breach and Fracture and Nightmother's Gaze gives Major Fracture instead of a unique debuff.

I'm not a fan, since this will kill usage of these sets in Trials, while increasing pressure for tanks to wear nothing but Alkosh and Torugs.

I dislike the state of Alkosh, since it was meant for Stam DPS, and provides 2/3/4 set bonuses not ideal for tanking. However, I did like Sunder/NMG buff sets which added set diversity and planning to raids. This is what I suggest as alternatives:

Revert the Sunder/NMG changes.
Add to Alkosh an additional 5 pc bonus like 300 weapon damage to make it more attractive to DPS
Consider adding a crafted Magicka equivalent of Night Mother's Gaze. You can even give it a Psijic name.
(Please avoid a mag-Sunder, it risks becoming a Healer must-slot like Infallible Aether pre-Homestead)

Thanks for reading, looking forward to Summerset.

themaddaedra · April 2018

Is this thread calling for a nerf to Alkosh intendedly or ironically?

If first, i'm at a loss of words.

ak_pvp · April 2018

No pls.

DPShiro · April 2018

Wasn’t April 1st days ago?

What I’m getting is that you don’t want to wear sets that help your team, but sets that help yourself instead?

Sure it would be nice if it got reworked and was a good DD set, but it was mediocre even when proc sets could crit

SaintSubwayy · April 2018

Nmg and sunder nerfs (if they go through) will prob rek stamdps for trials completly.
Stamina lacks penetration and we had to sacrifice sets to get it, while magicka gets tons of pen for passives.

Dont change sunder and nmg or trils will become sorc / magblade only for the next meta

StoicSunbro · April 2018

themaddaedra wrote: »

Is this thread calling for a nerf to Alkosh intendedly or ironically? If first, i'm at a loss of words.

I guess I wasn't clear. I'd actually prefer they revert the Sunder/NMG changes, and make Alkosh better suited for tanking by changing the 2/3/4 bonuses.

Removing the unique Penetration debuffs from Sunder and NMG, but not Alkosh is inconsistent. Worse yet, it increases pressure on tanks to wear a set that wasn't designed for them. 5% extra damage from Minor Slayer does little for a tank.

WuffyCerulei · April 2018

No. Just no. Sunderflame and NMG are specifically stamina sets. Nerfing Alkosh would be nerfing magicka dps as well, as it reduces BOTH physical and spell resistance. Just leave this one set alone.

StoicSunbro · April 2018

I've updated the title and thread since it wasn't clear.

Nifty2g · April 2018

What do you mean guilt free, most tanks wear alkosh because its a fun challenging set getting high uptimes

Inarre · April 2018

Keep in mind we as a community create the meta. You touched on this when mentioning alkosh not being a tanking set. That tanks wear alkosh at all i think is largely due to meta, not to zos.

Other penetration sets that were previously used as "support" ish dps roles in trials have been nerfed.... I think it could give room to have other support roles explored and even open up to new tanking builds while giving alkosh to those support dps roles now free of a set.

All of the changes are meta changing, I think we can reserve judgement on them until they first go live, and then wait to see how playstyles evolve before assuming tanks will be saddled with alkosh even more permanently and therefore the set must be nerfed.

Nerfing content because we don't like the communities current use of said content can have disastrous effects if we don't take into consideration 'off-meta' use.

Not to mention zos is removing two strong sources of penetration, I don't think our gut reaction should be to remove even more sources.

Ihatenightblades · April 2018

StoicSunbro wrote: »

I love the changes I saw in Ixtyr's Summerset writeup.

However, one new change is Sunderflame and Nightmother's Gaze now gives Major Breach and Fracture instead of a unique debuff.

I'm not a fan, since this will kill usage of these sets in Trials, while increasing pressure for tanks to wear nothing but Alkosh and Torugs.

I dislike the state of Alkosh, since it was meant for Stam DPS, and provides 2/3/4 set bonuses not ideal for tanking. However, I did like Sunder/NMG buff sets which added set diversity and planning to raids. This is what I suggest as alternatives:
Revert the Sunder/NMG changes.

Rework Alkosh to have Healthy Jewelry and Tank friendly bonuses like Minor Aegis, Mag recovery, Health.
Maybe an additional 5pc bonus similar to Harmony trait or just more stats

Consider adding a crafted Magicka equivalent of Night Mother's Gaze. You can even give it a Psijic name.
(Please avoid a mag-Sunder, it risks becoming a Healer must-slot like Infallible Aether pre-Homestead)

Thanks for reading, looking forward to Summerset.

Even with robust jewelry you can still have a great stat sheet if used attributes and glyphs correctly.

Always use health enchants on armor and shields they give more stats than any other glyph.

My fav setup is 5 ebon 5 torugs 2 chudan.

Im at resistance cap and i have enough stam to perma block infinitely ( no joking )

Argonian helps alot when u pop a pot u get extra 4k stam so basicly 11k stam everytime u pop a pot.

I got 40.3k health
26k stam
1100 mag recovery

If you got stats similar to those you should be fine. Anything under 25k stam is risky and might not be able to perma block on bosses. But with 25k stam on a argonian with chudan so you dont have to waste magicka for buffs you will be fine

StoicSunbro · April 2018

Inarre wrote: »

Keep in mind we as a community create the meta. You touched on this when mentioning alkosh not being a tanking set. That tanks wear alkosh at all i think is largely due to meta, not to zos.

Other penetration sets that were previously used as "support" ish dps roles in trials have been nerfed.... I think it could give room to have other support roles explored and even open up to new tanking builds while giving alkosh to those support dps roles now free of a set.

All of the changes are meta changing, I think we can reserve judgement on them until they first go live, and then wait to see how playstyles evolve before assuming tanks will be saddled with alkosh even more permanently and therefore the set must be nerfed.

Nerfing content because we don't like the communities current use of said content can have disastrous effects if we don't take into consideration 'off-meta' use.

Not to mention zos is removing two strong sources of penetration, I don't think our gut reaction should be to remove even more sources.

As I said, but it was not properly conveyed, is I lean more towards ZOS embracing Alkosh as a tank set meta, but making the set more palatable for tanks. I would even like additional sources of Penetration like a Magicka equivalent of Night Mother's Gaze.

We have dozens of sets at our disposal but since they adjusted the Sharpened Trait, the tank set meta has become rather dependent on Alkosh and Torug's pact. Removing Sunder/NMG will make this worse.

waitwhat · April 2018

PSA folks: He's not calling for Alkosh to be nerfed.

He's calling for the 2-pc weapon crit and the 4-pc weapon damage bonuses to be changed to something to help tanks (which would be literally anything, even health recovery and healing received would would be better for a tank).

He's calling for the 3-pcs Alkosh to be changed from Minor Slayer to Minor Aegis.

However, well-intentioned as this is, you all can rest easy, because making Alkosh more tank friendly in that way would require Lunar Bastion to be reworked to be more DPS friendly. As with HoF, MoL drops a healer set, a mag dps set, a stam dps set, and a tank set. They're not going to have it intentionally drop two tank sets.

Alternatively, with the removal of NMG and Sunderflame, it might be worth having a dps wear Alkosh with one harmony enchant, since the DoT of Alkosh scales with weapon damage and stam DPS are usually right on the other side of the boss's behind from the tank.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · April 2018

Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.

StoicSunbro · April 2018

waitwhat wrote: »

PSA folks: He's not calling for Alkosh to be nerfed.

He's calling for the 2-pc weapon crit and the 4-pc weapon damage bonuses to be changed to something to help tanks (which would be literally anything, even health recovery and healing received would would be better for a tank).

He's calling for the 3-pcs Alkosh to be changed from Minor Slayer to Minor Aegis.

However, well-intentioned as this is, you all can rest easy, because making Alkosh more tank friendly in that way would require Lunar Bastion to be reworked to be more DPS friendly. As with HoF, MoL drops a healer set, a mag dps set, a stam dps set, and a tank set. They're not going to have it intentionally drop two tank sets.

Alternatively, with the removal of NMG and Sunderflame, it might be worth having a dps wear Alkosh with one harmony enchant, since the DoT of Alkosh scales with weapon damage and stam DPS are usually right on the other side of the boss's behind from the tank.

Thank you.

They could just copy-paste Moondancer into a stam set that gave Weapon Damage and it would be better than what we got. It worked for Master Architect and War Machine and I'm seeing more builds run 5pc Moondancer this patch.

waitwhat · April 2018

It could also be that Alkosh isn't changed at all by the Harmony trait, even for tanks, since the reading I'm getting is: "Increases the potency of Damage, Healing, Recovery & Damage Shields granted by Synergies by 35%." Alkosh is just an effect activated when you activate another synergy, so it might be that we have a tank wearing it still but nothing changes.

The numbers on Alkosh are undeniable as of Dragon Bones, but the set on tanks is, as Uncle Sheo would say, BOOOOORRRINGGG. Perhaps, in some distant past prior to Dragon Bones and yet also prior to when activating synergies was complete hell, there was a time when synergy activation could be planned or coordinated or thoughtful. I don't think so though. I think they were always just random, hope-to-god you get the chance to activate before the prompt disappears thing, so the whole "Alkosh is more creative/engaging on a tank" statement was always kind of crap. Now, you just potato activate synergies and get a huge debuff on the enemies while holding back on all your support skills as you stare at resource bars for wearing such a misplaced set. But make no mistake that synergies never, ever, ever, not once, required coordination. We put Alkosh on a tank to circumvent the need for synergy coordination since they're standing next to the boss that has all the synergy-providing abilities cast on them

Alkosh on a tank is boring. Prior to Dragon Bones it was boring and unreliable. Now, it is just boring. Synergies shouldn't be hard to activate, and they shouldn't have cooldowns on activation, but this three year old set that someone put on a tank ages ago shouldn't be the gold-standard for tanking just because it always has been the best way for a tank to buff group dps.

Fights where more damage is the solution to all problems are fights where the mechanics were poorly designed such that the entire difficulty of the event shifts from actual coordination to a simple math game (i.e. do X damage in Y seconds to skip/trivialize mechanic Z).

@ZOS_Wrobel This may be helpful.

The Alkosh meta is the reason tanking is just the task of staring at resource bars: If damage weren't the solution to all problems, then tanks wouldn't have to wear Alkosh, and they could put on actual tanking sets that grant them the resources/survivability to do more than just block, puncture, balance, igneous shield over and over again.

tl;dr: It's no sign of health to be adjusted to sick system. Alkosh doesn't make tanking more fun. You've just had it beaten into you for the past three years.

waitwhat · April 2018

@ZOS_Wrobel Buff Alkosh.

Give it another 5pc weapon damage bonus like that of Vicious Ophidian and increase the scaling of the DoT with weapon damage + max stam exponentionally. This way, it will provide a solid bonus to crit and non-crit races, and will do excellent damage on a DPS whilst doing absolute mud damage on a tank.

Otherwise, Alkosh on a tank is potato.

StoicSunbro · April 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.

I think you have a very real concern. I remember the Homestead days of 8 magsorc raids when caltrops did not stack.

Magicka already gets a great deal of Penetration passively from Light Armor. Sunder and NMG helped with the gap and then some. I'd like to see more DPS group buff sets like NMG and Sunder, not less.

DocFrost72 · April 2018

One thing you touched on that most definitely is a pain point is the 2-4 bonuses on alkosh are abysmal for tanking. It feels like I'm only wearing only set and six of my 8 armor pieces. Ideally, I'd like to see it as:

Health,
Minor Aegis,
Physical resistance,

But as others said, it would be better to slap this onto lunar bastion, and make alkosh stamina moondancer.

Qbiken · April 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.

I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.

Zeni0s · April 2018

Now 1 guy won't be able to debuff for all the raid, every stam will have his own VO, spriggan ect...

I see why they want to do that, but dunno if the nerf is too excessive.

techprince · April 2018

NMG and Sunderflame nerf is directed towards making TFS and Lover mundus more useful and i am fine with it.

JobooAGS · April 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.

I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.

Improve stam ranged surviability and/or utility and you can have mag melee

Inarre · April 2018

waitwhat wrote: »

PSA folks: He's not calling for Alkosh to be nerfed.

Just to be clear it wasn't a misunderstanding on commenters parts. Both the title and op have been edited.

josiahva · April 2018

StoicSunbro wrote: »

I love the changes I saw in Ixtyr's Summerset writeup.

However, one new change is Sunderflame and Nightmother's Gaze now gives Major Breach and Fracture instead of a unique debuff.

I'm not a fan, since this will kill usage of these sets in Trials, while increasing pressure for tanks to wear nothing but Alkosh and Torugs.

I dislike the state of Alkosh, since it was meant for Stam DPS, and provides 2/3/4 set bonuses not ideal for tanking. However, I did like Sunder/NMG buff sets which added set diversity and planning to raids. This is what I suggest as alternatives:
Revert the Sunder/NMG changes.

Rework Alkosh to have Healthy Jewelry and Tank friendly bonuses like Minor Aegis, Mag recovery, Health.
Maybe an additional 5pc bonus similar to Harmony trait or just more stats

Consider adding a crafted Magicka equivalent of Night Mother's Gaze. You can even give it a Psijic name.
(Please avoid a mag-Sunder, it risks becoming a Healer must-slot like Infallible Aether pre-Homestead)

Thanks for reading, looking forward to Summerset.

I too hate ALL replacements of unique buffs with generic non-stackable buffs. That being said, I certainly dont want Alkosh pushed any more toward the "must-wear" category for tanks than it already is, so I disagree with any changes to that effect.

Inarre · April 2018

After reading the edited original post I am curious as to how you think changing the 2, 3, 4 pc set bonuses on alkosh to tank friendly bonuses will encourage the community to move away from using Alkosh for tanking?

Or am I misunderstanding the original post which said you fear these changes to penetration sets for stam dps will cement tanks in their use of alkosh?

Qbiken · April 2018

JobooAGS wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.

I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.

Improve stam ranged surviability and/or utility and you can have mag melee

You mean like we had before Morrowind?

JobooAGS · April 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.

I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.

Improve stam ranged surviability and/or utility and you can have mag melee

You mean like we had before Morrowind?

There was no stam ranged utility/surviabilty was in the gutter?

Feanor · April 2018

JobooAGS wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.

I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.

Improve stam ranged surviability and/or utility and you can have mag melee

That's not a question of stam being bad at ranged but of magicka melee being so far behind.

Blackbird_V · April 2018

If Alkosh is changed then Lunar Bastion has to be as well

JobooAGS · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Please dps consider not going through with this atm otherwise we will go back to all mag raid groups. At it's current state raid teams are pretty balanced but this unnecessary change isn't needed and will create division.

I don´t find it balanced when a stamina specc can pull 10-15k more DPS than it´s magicka counterpart. Stamina DPS needs to be brought down so magicka melee´s have a change to be viable.

Improve stam ranged surviability and/or utility and you can have mag melee

That's not a question of stam being bad at ranged but of magicka melee being so far behind.

My point is if mag can be good at both melee and ranged, why cant stam?