Should detect pot be 100% uptime?

thankyourat · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Only projectiles miss. Melee abilities still hit

kadar · March 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Only projectiles miss. Melee abilities still hit

Yea I haven't experienced that miss after revealing NBs with a pot. Funnel health/Impale seem to land just fine. ./shrug

dazee · March 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

You don't need more time than it currently allows to burst down a NB after reveal. If you can't burst them down in the allotted time that the pot denies cloak then that's on you.

Edit: You were the same guy who made the "nerf Magblades" thread earlier!

Lol!!!! l2p

Yeah NBs do not need a nerf, stam or mag.

Thogard · March 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Only projectiles miss. Melee abilities still hit

Yea I haven't experienced that miss after revealing NBs with a pot. Funnel health/Impale seem to land just fine. ./shrug

All Gap closers / dizzy / poison injection / skoria / warden birds / snipe / crystal frags / vampire bane / fighter guild xbow / DW flurry / flying blade / stone fist / plenty more I can’t think of

Basically everything you’d be able to hit a NB with while they’re aggressively kiting.

Remember that there is not a detect / speed pot available. You have to pick one or the other. This means that a decent Nightblade will be be able to outrun and kite anyone using a detect pot. Melee abilities will not land.

The most frustrating miss is the gap closer. The usual counter to being kited - stampede - will not land and will not apply its snare due to the forced miss from vanish.

EDIT:
I’m removing DK leap and meteor from the list temporarily. I believe the mechanic is that if the NB who hits vanish mid-attack is the target, it’ll force a miss, but if they get hit by splash dmg from another target then it won’t miss. Could someone who has tested this specifically confirm?

Rianai · March 2018

Leap and Meteor are aoe and can't be avoided with cloak, regardless of being detected by a pot or not.

LeagueTroll · March 2018

akray21 wrote: »

Sure. Just give me a pot that prevents shields and has a 100% uptime. Deal.

I agree that bonus dmg against shield cp needs a buff.

Minalan · March 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Thogard · March 2018

Rianai wrote: »

Leap and Meteor are aoe and can't be avoided with cloak, regardless of being detected by a pot or not.

Have you specifically tested this by activating cloak while the meteor is <1s away? I’m very confident that it’s possible to force a miss on a meteor if you’re the target - I’m 100% sure you can do it with a skoria proc... It’s the DK leap that I’m less confident on.

thankyourat · March 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Only projectiles miss. Melee abilities still hit

Yea I haven't experienced that miss after revealing NBs with a pot. Funnel health/Impale seem to land just fine. ./shrug

Most of the time projectiles will land fine if you use them and the nightblade doesn't press Cloak again, but every time you Cloak projectiles that are about to hit you will miss. I also believe major evasion can activate when you are cloaked, I'm not 100% sure on that I need to test it, but I've seen the Dodge animation while closed before. You won't really notice force misses on stamblades because they can't spam Cloak.

Thogard · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Agreed. But at the same time, I try to avoid discussions based around skill levels because it’s a two way swing.

Bad nightblades will think something is underpowered when it actually isn’t when used correctly, but at the same time, bad opponents will think an ability is overpowered, when it actually isn’t when countered correctly.

It’s a slippery slope that usually doesn’t lead anywhere productive and has a bit of an implied insult built into it.

I prefer to focus on actual game mechanics since they are verifiable and easily replicated.

thankyourat · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Detect pots are a pretty good counter to stealth in terms of if the nightblade actually wants to fight, you can pop a detect pot when you feel your burst is ready to kill a nightblade. At the same time detect pot won't stop a nightblade from just dodging and sprinting away. So it won't stop a nightblade in full turtle mode. The thing is you can't really kill anyone anymore who is going full turtle mode. That's just the way the game is now.

Grimhallow · March 2018

Detect pots are in a pretty decent place. I play stamblade, and I use them to reveal other nightblades all the time. I don't think the duration is too short. Likewise AOE damage skills are amazing for pulling nightblades out of stealth. The OP noted that he was a magicka templar, one of the best anti-nightblade classes. All you should have to do is counter the burst with a BoL, then chase him around spamming puncturing sweeps. You can kill almost all gankers this way. I just use a pot and blow them up. It really isn't an issue- cloak takes a lot of skill to use well. I think you'll be surprised how easy it can be to keep a nightblade from cloaking once you understand how most people use it.

Thogard · March 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Detect pots are a pretty good counter to stealth in terms of if the nightblade actually wants to fight, you can pop a detect pot when you feel your burst is ready to kill a nightblade. At the same time detect pot won't stop a nightblade from just dodging and sprinting away. So it won't stop a nightblade in full turtle mode. The thing is you can't really kill anyone anymore who is going full turtle mode. That's just the way the game is now.

That’s a fair statement.

I think what many players feel is overpowered is not the fact that NBs can disengage at will, because you’re right, most classes can kite, turtle, or heal when built for it... but what many players find issue with is the ease, speed, and lack of having to make build sacrifices for Nightblades as they switch between strong burst and strong survivability.

For me, personally, I find the lack of build sacrifice between burst and turtle to be the biggest issue. Killing a “normal” speccd nightblade requires either potion adjustment or running AoEs.. the latter option is not attractive for most players due to the lower burst potential with most AOE skills (excluding ultimates).

That same NB would not need to make any build adjustments to fight other specs that are defeatable by other classes. Obviously there are some specs that that NB would not be able to kill, (for instance, a permablocking healthplar or a triple shield stacking sorc streaker) but those specs would also be unkillable to other classes as well.

Rianai · March 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Leap and Meteor are aoe and can't be avoided with cloak, regardless of being detected by a pot or not.

Have you specifically tested this by activating cloak while the meteor is <1s away? I’m very confident that it’s possible to force a miss on a meteor if you’re the target - I’m 100% sure you can do it with a skoria proc... It’s the DK leap that I’m less confident on.

I'm often throwing meteors on cloaking nightblades and it hits them everytime. Granted i have started to use mark recently, so if there is a new bug that allows to cloak meteor (or leap) i might have missed it.

Thogard · March 2018

Rianai wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Leap and Meteor are aoe and can't be avoided with cloak, regardless of being detected by a pot or not.

Have you specifically tested this by activating cloak while the meteor is <1s away? I’m very confident that it’s possible to force a miss on a meteor if you’re the target - I’m 100% sure you can do it with a skoria proc... It’s the DK leap that I’m less confident on.

I'm often throwing meteors on cloaking nightblades and it hits them everytime. Granted i have started to use mark recently, so if there is a new bug that allows to cloak meteor (or leap) i might have missed it.

I will test tonight

thankyourat · March 2018

Thogard wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Detect pots are a pretty good counter to stealth in terms of if the nightblade actually wants to fight, you can pop a detect pot when you feel your burst is ready to kill a nightblade. At the same time detect pot won't stop a nightblade from just dodging and sprinting away. So it won't stop a nightblade in full turtle mode. The thing is you can't really kill anyone anymore who is going full turtle mode. That's just the way the game is now.

That’s a fair statement.

I think what many players feel is overpowered is not the fact that NBs can disengage at will, because you’re right, most classes can kite, turtle, or heal when built for it... but what many players find issue with is the ease, speed, and lack of having to make build sacrifices for Nightblades as they switch between strong burst and strong survivability.

For me, personally, I find the lack of build sacrifice between burst and turtle to be the biggest issue. Killing a “normal” speccd nightblade requires either potion adjustment or running AoEs.. the latter option is not attractive for most players due to the lower burst potential with most AOE skills (excluding ultimates).

That's true nightblades generally build for kiting and burst same as sorc while other classes build for tank and burst. There are alot of wardens around with 30k resist 5k wd and 30k health. I think on average most classes sacrifice about the same. With Stam dk being a little weaker in the meta at the moment. So if someone wanted some Stam dk buffs I would be behind that. Killing a normal spec nightblade can be impossible sometimes, but if the nightblade is playing in a way that makes it impossible to kill it's also impossible for the nightblade to kill you. I will agree if you are into playing solo it's easier to build a nightblade for that, but that is such a small player base.

ShadowMonarch · March 2018

lol OP's proposed changes are literally moronic.

Why don't we also make a potion that gives me 10k spell damage while we are doing stupid s*$!

Lord-Otto · March 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Detect pots are a pretty good counter to stealth in terms of if the nightblade actually wants to fight, you can pop a detect pot when you feel your burst is ready to kill a nightblade. At the same time detect pot won't stop a nightblade from just dodging and sprinting away. So it won't stop a nightblade in full turtle mode. The thing is you can't really kill anyone anymore who is going full turtle mode. That's just the way the game is now.

That’s a fair statement.

I think what many players feel is overpowered is not the fact that NBs can disengage at will, because you’re right, most classes can kite, turtle, or heal when built for it... but what many players find issue with is the ease, speed, and lack of having to make build sacrifices for Nightblades as they switch between strong burst and strong survivability.

For me, personally, I find the lack of build sacrifice between burst and turtle to be the biggest issue. Killing a “normal” speccd nightblade requires either potion adjustment or running AoEs.. the latter option is not attractive for most players due to the lower burst potential with most AOE skills (excluding ultimates).

That's true nightblades generally build for kiting and burst same as sorc while other classes build for tank and burst. There are alot of wardens around with 30k resist 5k wd and 30k health. I think on average most classes sacrifice about the same. With Stam dk being a little weaker in the meta at the moment. So if someone wanted some Stam dk buffs I would be behind that. Killing a normal spec nightblade can be impossible sometimes, but if the nightblade is playing in a way that makes it impossible to kill it's also impossible for the nightblade to kill you. I will agree if you are into playing solo it's easier to build a nightblade for that, but that is such a small player base.

See, the other classes have to build for their defense.
30k resists mean heavy armor, so a sustain loss, and resist buff, so a slot. Stacking shields means A LOT of sustain demand, and a very close eye on shield duration. This means sustain sets, cutting your offense, and frequent shielding, cutting your offense window and draining resources. Also don't scale.

Compare that to Cloak which offers mobility, positioning, scales, gives res buff, increases healing and/or burst, can be spammed easily on mag build, takes heat off of you and has utility like loosing NPCs or getting a res or camp up or hide in keep easily... Cloak offers A LOT for basically no sacrifice at all.

It's the same story with Incap, by the way. Easy to see where the hate is coming from.
100% d-pots are rubbish, though. But a slight range boost would be appreciated.

thankyourat · March 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Detect pots are a pretty good counter to stealth in terms of if the nightblade actually wants to fight, you can pop a detect pot when you feel your burst is ready to kill a nightblade. At the same time detect pot won't stop a nightblade from just dodging and sprinting away. So it won't stop a nightblade in full turtle mode. The thing is you can't really kill anyone anymore who is going full turtle mode. That's just the way the game is now.

That’s a fair statement.

I think what many players feel is overpowered is not the fact that NBs can disengage at will, because you’re right, most classes can kite, turtle, or heal when built for it... but what many players find issue with is the ease, speed, and lack of having to make build sacrifices for Nightblades as they switch between strong burst and strong survivability.

For me, personally, I find the lack of build sacrifice between burst and turtle to be the biggest issue. Killing a “normal” speccd nightblade requires either potion adjustment or running AoEs.. the latter option is not attractive for most players due to the lower burst potential with most AOE skills (excluding ultimates).

That's true nightblades generally build for kiting and burst same as sorc while other classes build for tank and burst. There are alot of wardens around with 30k resist 5k wd and 30k health. I think on average most classes sacrifice about the same. With Stam dk being a little weaker in the meta at the moment. So if someone wanted some Stam dk buffs I would be behind that. Killing a normal spec nightblade can be impossible sometimes, but if the nightblade is playing in a way that makes it impossible to kill it's also impossible for the nightblade to kill you. I will agree if you are into playing solo it's easier to build a nightblade for that, but that is such a small player base.

See, the other classes have to build for their defense.
30k resists mean heavy armor, so a sustain loss, and resist buff, so a slot. Stacking shields means A LOT of sustain demand, and a very close eye on shield duration. This means sustain sets, cutting your offense, and frequent shielding, cutting your offense window and draining resources. Also don't scale.

Compare that to Cloak which offers mobility, positioning, scales, gives res buff, increases healing and/or burst, can be spammed easily on mag build, takes heat off of you and has utility like loosing NPCs or getting a res or camp up or hide in keep easily... Cloak offers A LOT for basically no sacrifice at all.

It's the same story with Incap, by the way. Easy to see where the hate is coming from.
100% d-pots are rubbish, though. But a slight range boost would be appreciated.

For a nightblade to sustain Cloak they will need to build heavy sustain same as with a sorc most nightblades wear sustain sets. Cloak is crazy expensive to only last 3 seconds. Stamblades generally run drink meaning they sacrifice health. There are also some negatives to Cloak the biggest one is you can't be offensive while being defensive. Shields and resistances absorb damage while you are attacking. I only go into stealth to reposition when I see more enemy coming or to run away. It's actually useless when trying to kill someone because while you Cloak your enemy can get all their buffs up, heal to full and get resources back. This is why I use my shield more than Cloak, as a nightblade you need something to absorb that incoming burst. And that is what stamblades lack. Most stamblades Cloak spam because their 20k health high regen build can't really take a hit.

Lord-Otto · March 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Detect pots are a pretty good counter to stealth in terms of if the nightblade actually wants to fight, you can pop a detect pot when you feel your burst is ready to kill a nightblade. At the same time detect pot won't stop a nightblade from just dodging and sprinting away. So it won't stop a nightblade in full turtle mode. The thing is you can't really kill anyone anymore who is going full turtle mode. That's just the way the game is now.

That’s a fair statement.

I think what many players feel is overpowered is not the fact that NBs can disengage at will, because you’re right, most classes can kite, turtle, or heal when built for it... but what many players find issue with is the ease, speed, and lack of having to make build sacrifices for Nightblades as they switch between strong burst and strong survivability.

For me, personally, I find the lack of build sacrifice between burst and turtle to be the biggest issue. Killing a “normal” speccd nightblade requires either potion adjustment or running AoEs.. the latter option is not attractive for most players due to the lower burst potential with most AOE skills (excluding ultimates).

That's true nightblades generally build for kiting and burst same as sorc while other classes build for tank and burst. There are alot of wardens around with 30k resist 5k wd and 30k health. I think on average most classes sacrifice about the same. With Stam dk being a little weaker in the meta at the moment. So if someone wanted some Stam dk buffs I would be behind that. Killing a normal spec nightblade can be impossible sometimes, but if the nightblade is playing in a way that makes it impossible to kill it's also impossible for the nightblade to kill you. I will agree if you are into playing solo it's easier to build a nightblade for that, but that is such a small player base.

See, the other classes have to build for their defense.
30k resists mean heavy armor, so a sustain loss, and resist buff, so a slot. Stacking shields means A LOT of sustain demand, and a very close eye on shield duration. This means sustain sets, cutting your offense, and frequent shielding, cutting your offense window and draining resources. Also don't scale.

Compare that to Cloak which offers mobility, positioning, scales, gives res buff, increases healing and/or burst, can be spammed easily on mag build, takes heat off of you and has utility like loosing NPCs or getting a res or camp up or hide in keep easily... Cloak offers A LOT for basically no sacrifice at all.

It's the same story with Incap, by the way. Easy to see where the hate is coming from.
100% d-pots are rubbish, though. But a slight range boost would be appreciated.

For a nightblade to sustain Cloak they will need to build heavy sustain same as with a sorc most nightblades wear sustain sets. Cloak is crazy expensive to only last 3 seconds. Stamblades generally run drink meaning they sacrifice health. There are also some negatives to Cloak the biggest one is you can't be offensive while being defensive. Shields and resistances absorb damage while you are attacking. I only go into stealth to reposition when I see more enemy coming or to run away. It's actually useless when trying to kill someone because while you Cloak your enemy can get all their buffs up, heal to full and get resources back. This is why I use my shield more than Cloak, as a nightblade you need something to absorb that incoming burst. And that is what stamblades lack. Most stamblades Cloak spam because their 20k health high regen build can't really take a hit.

I disagree here partially.

That 3k you spend on Cloak is nothing if you consider that's three seconds pressure off. Stacking shields costs almost double and might need to be re-applied immediately, because you're taking damage while doing so, leading to high magicka consumption.
Magsorcs mostly use a sustain and a hybrid set currently. My magblade is fine with just one of those, to compare. Drinks are a natural thing, IMO, and stamina has Bone Pirate for that.

Stamblades have a harder time to utilize Cloak, agree, but they can and do dodge more.
Cloak just offers the immediate force miss. Even if it's active for only one second, you already got the benefit. It's not a primary defense, but it's a damn fine secondary. And you're free to attack after one tap, your HoTs will heal you. Only when you're already losing do you try to consta-cloak, and therein lies my issue.

IMO, Cloak should be treated like Streak. That one is easily countered and still invokes a spam penalty, nevertheless.
Cloak should keep all of its strengths, but should someone force you to spam it, you should get punished. The current cost is not an issue for Magblades, so I would like to see the stacking cost penalty. Nothing wrong with quickly tapping Cloak to evade a burst, but spamming it against every wind blow is a problem.

Xsorus · March 2018

Increase cast speed of flare by a crap ton; it’s way to slow to hit anything

Make sentry set work against sneak and stealth.

Rianai · March 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

IMO, Cloak should be treated like Streak. That one is easily countered and still invokes a spam penalty, nevertheless.
Cloak should keep all of its strengths, but should someone force you to spam it, you should get punished. The current cost is not an issue for Magblades, so I would like to see the stacking cost penalty. Nothing wrong with quickly tapping Cloak to evade a burst, but spamming it against every wind blow is a problem.

A cost penalty would be a hard nerf for solo open world play more than anything else. Do we really need even less viable solo open world builds?

DDuke · March 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

No, they shouldn’t be 100% uptime, but reveal pots should prevent the 100% MISS chance for single target abilities on a revealed foe.

Agreed. This is the biggest issue with detect pots.

As the average player skill increases as the game ages, more and more nightblades are learning how to use this + dodgeroll to stay invulnerable during the 15s a detect pot is running.

Which is why many PVPers complain about detect pots as a ‘useless’ counter.

Leading to the nightblades who actually die from it to say, WTF?!

And it goes back and forth, while the really amazing nightblades sit and just hope that nothing changes, because they’re NOT dying out there to anything.

I hope this sheds some understanding here, because there’s a distinct lack of it. Detect pots as they stand are NOT a counter to stealth.

Detect pots are a pretty good counter to stealth in terms of if the nightblade actually wants to fight, you can pop a detect pot when you feel your burst is ready to kill a nightblade. At the same time detect pot won't stop a nightblade from just dodging and sprinting away. So it won't stop a nightblade in full turtle mode. The thing is you can't really kill anyone anymore who is going full turtle mode. That's just the way the game is now.

That’s a fair statement.

I think what many players feel is overpowered is not the fact that NBs can disengage at will, because you’re right, most classes can kite, turtle, or heal when built for it... but what many players find issue with is the ease, speed, and lack of having to make build sacrifices for Nightblades as they switch between strong burst and strong survivability.

For me, personally, I find the lack of build sacrifice between burst and turtle to be the biggest issue. Killing a “normal” speccd nightblade requires either potion adjustment or running AoEs.. the latter option is not attractive for most players due to the lower burst potential with most AOE skills (excluding ultimates).

That's true nightblades generally build for kiting and burst same as sorc while other classes build for tank and burst. There are alot of wardens around with 30k resist 5k wd and 30k health. I think on average most classes sacrifice about the same. With Stam dk being a little weaker in the meta at the moment. So if someone wanted some Stam dk buffs I would be behind that. Killing a normal spec nightblade can be impossible sometimes, but if the nightblade is playing in a way that makes it impossible to kill it's also impossible for the nightblade to kill you. I will agree if you are into playing solo it's easier to build a nightblade for that, but that is such a small player base.

See, the other classes have to build for their defense.
30k resists mean heavy armor, so a sustain loss, and resist buff, so a slot. Stacking shields means A LOT of sustain demand, and a very close eye on shield duration. This means sustain sets, cutting your offense, and frequent shielding, cutting your offense window and draining resources. Also don't scale.

Compare that to Cloak which offers mobility, positioning, scales, gives res buff, increases healing and/or burst, can be spammed easily on mag build, takes heat off of you and has utility like loosing NPCs or getting a res or camp up or hide in keep easily... Cloak offers A LOT for basically no sacrifice at all.

It's the same story with Incap, by the way. Easy to see where the hate is coming from.
100% d-pots are rubbish, though. But a slight range boost would be appreciated.

For a nightblade to sustain Cloak they will need to build heavy sustain same as with a sorc most nightblades wear sustain sets. Cloak is crazy expensive to only last 3 seconds. Stamblades generally run drink meaning they sacrifice health. There are also some negatives to Cloak the biggest one is you can't be offensive while being defensive. Shields and resistances absorb damage while you are attacking. I only go into stealth to reposition when I see more enemy coming or to run away. It's actually useless when trying to kill someone because while you Cloak your enemy can get all their buffs up, heal to full and get resources back. This is why I use my shield more than Cloak, as a nightblade you need something to absorb that incoming burst. And that is what stamblades lack. Most stamblades Cloak spam because their 20k health high regen build can't really take a hit.

I disagree here partially.

That 3k you spend on Cloak is nothing if you consider that's three seconds pressure off. Stacking shields costs almost double and might need to be re-applied immediately, because you're taking damage while doing so, leading to high magicka consumption.
Magsorcs mostly use a sustain and a hybrid set currently. My magblade is fine with just one of those, to compare. Drinks are a natural thing, IMO, and stamina has Bone Pirate for that.

Stamblades have a harder time to utilize Cloak, agree, but they can and do dodge more.
Cloak just offers the immediate force miss. Even if it's active for only one second, you already got the benefit. It's not a primary defense, but it's a damn fine secondary. And you're free to attack after one tap, your HoTs will heal you. Only when you're already losing do you try to consta-cloak, and therein lies my issue.

IMO, Cloak should be treated like Streak. That one is easily countered and still invokes a spam penalty, nevertheless.
Cloak should keep all of its strengths, but should someone force you to spam it, you should get punished. The current cost is not an issue for Magblades, so I would like to see the stacking cost penalty. Nothing wrong with quickly tapping Cloak to evade a burst, but spamming it against every wind blow is a problem.

Any such change would push even more people into playing by far most popular NB builds, rollerblades.

See, high damage builds don't treat cloak as a "cast once in a while to reset dodge roll stacking cost modifier" skill, they treat it as their "Hardened Ward" or "Healing Ward", as most of these builds that are DW or Bow oriented lack other instant recovery tools.

Very many of these builds also need multiple cloaks when fighting 1vX in order to drop combat for another sneak attack.

"Streak treatment" isn't really feasible if we care at all about build diversity, and doesn't address the main issue behind the rollerblade builds: infinite dodge rolling.

If people would stop for a minute and consider what changed in the latest patch to spawn so many complaints about NBs:

1. Miat's fixed. Didn't really affect the meta rollerblade builds.

2. Merciless Resolve/Relentless Focus stacks not lost after buff runs out. Big buff to rollerblades, not so impactful for high dmg builds which kill from stealth, not with Incap->Relentless after dodge rolling for 15 minutes.

3. Warden birds & Power Lash dodgeable. This is the big one, two highest damage undodgeable non-ultimates became dodgeable. Enormous survivability boost to dodge roll oriented builds.

One thing that did not change at all in the patch was cloak, so why is that suddenly the problem? Curious.

Lord-Otto · March 2018

Yeah, I don't care for "build diversity" for Nightblades, they already are extremely versatile - I want balance. I'm a sorc main, don't you tell me about diversity.

How I imagine it is that with the third cast of Cloak you should start feeling drain. Stamblades will dodge, no matter what. And magblades should slot Annulment, making a slot sacrifice.
Don't get me wrong, Cloak should be strong, but you should get punished for abusive usage. As it stands, I'm sacrificing more to combat Cloak than nightblades to re-apply it.

And maybe I sound salty, but where were you guys when Streak got nerfed? No stacking cost, no root at beginning and end, no momentum loss, no slope hindrance and less "Invalid Location" issues would help me 1vX - but no one cares. I don't see how this should be different for nightblades.

DDuke · March 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yeah, I don't care for "build diversity" for Nightblades, they already are extremely versatile - I want balance. I'm a sorc main, don't you tell me about diversity.

How I imagine it is that with the third cast of Cloak you should start feeling drain. Stamblades will dodge, no matter what. And magblades should slot Annulment, making a slot sacrifice.
Don't get me wrong, Cloak should be strong, but you should get punished for abusive usage. As it stands, I'm sacrificing more to combat Cloak than nightblades to re-apply it.

And maybe I sound salty, but where were you guys when Streak got nerfed? No stacking cost, no root at beginning and end, no momentum loss, no slope hindrance and less "Invalid Location" issues would help me 1vX - but no one cares. I don't see how this should be different for nightblades.

If you want my opinion on the Streak/BoL changes... they were good at the time when people spamming gap closers would actually run out of stamina before sorcs spamming streak/BoL ran out of magicka.

Those stacking costs on BoL/Streak have no place in current meta however and should be removed, same as the stupid delays with the ability.

Hell, I might even give my bow/bow stam sorc another try if they did that.

Similarly, other classes need kiting/dmg avoidance skills that allow them playstyles outside the current stale meta builds.

Rianai · March 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yeah, I don't care for "build diversity" for Nightblades, they already are extremely versatile - I want balance. I'm a sorc main, don't you tell me about diversity.

How I imagine it is that with the third cast of Cloak you should start feeling drain. Stamblades will dodge, no matter what. And magblades should slot Annulment, making a slot sacrifice.
Don't get me wrong, Cloak should be strong, but you should get punished for abusive usage. As it stands, I'm sacrificing more to combat Cloak than nightblades to re-apply it.

And how would nbs not being able to escape from zergs (which is pretty much the only situation where i'm forced to spam cloak as magblade) improve balance? It won't change much in 1vs1, it won't change much for group vs group, it would not make other classes better at 1vX. It would only make it easier to zerg down nightblades.

And yes, i'd rather improve other classes' tools to handle (escape) outnumbered situations than take away the few and already quite limited things that are still aviable.

Lord-Otto · March 2018

Getting away from zergs is fine, and I don't wanna destroy that. But you should be unable to retaliate immediately.

It's a matter of defining the stacking cost just right. Here's what I have in mind:

Cloak should invoke no penalty for single-use. You use it skillfully to evade a big burst or when you took too much damage and need to recover.
There should be a slight penalty for two consecutive uses. Mainly, if you got knocked out of Cloak immediately, you timed it poorly and should feel it. You should get penalized to match your opponent's effort to de-cloak you in the first place, nothing more.

If you cloak more than three times, you're abusing it. You depend on the very strong defense of Cloak and don't consider other defense in your build, leading to the crazy bursts andcsurvivability we see right now. Or you simply mistimed it and just spam it because you're nit thinking. THAT needs to stop.
If you're in a duel-esque situation, you should be penalized for Cloak spam. You're supposed to keep the upper hand on a Nightblade, and to die if you fail. Cloakspam to reset a fight is a crutch to erase your previous bad gameplay. This should go.
And against zergs, you should use Cloak to ESCAPE, not retaliate. Cloaking six times in a row should leave you dry, and if you didn't get to LoS or similar by then, you played poorly and should get punished.

Did my intention come across? I would suggest 50% cost increase if cast within four seconds. This should give you enough room to cast it once per rotation, but punish you for permacloaking. I am open to suggestions about the cost itself and the stack time window, this really needs careful numbers.

Emma_Overload · March 2018

If Detect potions need a 30 second cooldown, then Shield Breaker needs a 30 second cooldown, too.

Rianai · March 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Getting away from zergs is fine, and I don't wanna destroy that.

But that's exactly what your suggestion would do. There is still plenty of stuff that breaks cloak and it is often impossible to tell beforehand if it will get broken or not. There isn't even a certain way to know if someone is using a detect pot and i'd be better off spamming something else than cloak or if something else is breaking it and the next cloak might work. And snares will often prevent me from gaining some distance within 1 or 2 cloaks.This all when using cloak in addition to shadow image, mind you. And even both together are far from a guaranteed escape. But at least i can try ...

In a 1vs1 however there isn't much difference between a nb spamming cloak and any other class spamming their main defense. Every class can force a stalemate in a 1vs1 when playing defensive and your suggestion wouldn't change much in this regard. Stamblades can just dodge between cloaks and magblades can use shields (which are already competitive to cloak, if not better, in 1vs1).

Lord-Otto · March 2018

I kind of doubt that. If you need six Cloaks, you ARE playing poorly and crutching on it. All classes struggle under zergs like that and have to face consequences. I could (and do) complain about gapclosing zergs countering my Streak and running me dry after four Streaks. I have to LoS, to CC, to shield and so on to stay alive, on top of dealing with stacking cost. And either this gets removed for me or other classes get it as well. Being able to cloakspam away easily with no penalty is just braindead easy and overpowered, and it reflects in builds.