Should detect pot be 100% uptime?

rfennell_ESO

"sniper" builds and/or builds that slot lethal arrow are typically called spammers.

Thing is... they can't actually use any abilities other than snipe and piercing mark at that range and they mostly can't be countered with other's attacks.

The thing that most seem to miss is that to be actually "lethal" with ranged snipes you mostly have to dedicate yourself to that as your primary damage source. That means giving up a whole lot of things to do it.

If you don't stack weapon damage, keep relentless up, use empower (mage light, acid spray w/ asylum bow), have a source of major brutality and also have some crit increase (shadow mundus, all divines for example) and force crit with shadowy disguise... you aren't killing anyone with it.

You are forced to run a one dimensional build with glaring weaknesses and be nearly entirely reliant on invisibility as defense.

I'm certainly not advocating for a change to allow lethal arrow to be more lethal with less dedication to it. Just pointing out that no build that is actually a threat with it is anything but totally predictable and one dimensional. You will also invariably be squishy.. It has it's place though... it's not a run into the zerg and duke it out build and requires constant movement and positioning and understanding of the battlefield.

You see a whole lot of complaining about cloak... when an actually "lethal" sniper build can cloak 3 times before they are out of magicka. Most of these complaints aren't actually about cloak though... they are about how some snipers understand the mechanics of stealth and are able to get back into stealth.

Would it surprise anyone to learn that you can fire lethal arrow at a target and hit them and immediately restealth? You can also immediately restealth after killing someone at range... etc.

LeagueTroll

DEATHSHEAD288b14_ESO wrote: »

The class defining trait is its ability to use stealth. This seems to be the just of the whole convo. I get it, stealth give you a big advantage of where and when u wanna set up your kill, or to remove yourself from getting killed yourself. Imagine there was no stealth, or these ridiculous potions basically had all the things you ask for...what are they then? Warriors with different names? Mages with c**p shields? The class basically disappears cause no one wants to play it anymore due to having the one class defining trait stripped from it. So you want a vanilla guy with 2 <insert weapons here> rolling around on the ground flailing around like the village idiot with little to nothing to keep him alive, that almost every other class has to keep them alive. Not to mention, they pretty much get 2-3 shot without cloak.....? How is this reality? There's at least 4 SOLID ways of countering stealth. How many more do you need? 7? 11? 22? Should every move you make shoot out a wave of light revealing every stealthed class in a 100 yard radius? That they even gave you 4 solid ways of detecting/pulling out of stealth is more then enough. Many other games that have stealth and pvp don't even have that. 1-2 at most. Most use aoe alone. Stop crying about one classes moves. Loon for the defenses in your class to counter them. And in reality it's a game of f**king rock paper scissors. Air counters vehicles who kill infantry. Your class will be inherently weaker then others and stronger then others inherently. Stop trying to 1v1 a class that excels at it and play to your strengths. These guys are obviously calfing you off the pack and using your arrogance and anger to smash you down and play their game. That's their point. They are skirmishers. Spies. Snipers. Wolves. They lure you in where their abilities count and yours matter less. You take away their one thing, stealth they are just some half done wizard or warrior who wont last 2 seconds in a fight with either class.

Stealth don’t become useless even if 100% up time, no one use pots ouside combat, nb will still get the jump. And radius is not big, nb can still run away. To say a certain class deserve to be supreme in 1v1 is just unbalanced. Counter can and should exist.

Ultimate_Overlord

It would be nice if ppl, like, played sorc. Calling overload a 3rd bar is pretty ridiculous - in situations where it actually matters what skills you use overload becomes barely usable due to its clunkiness and slowness.

Feanor

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

It would be nice if ppl, like, played sorc. Calling overload a 3rd bar is pretty ridiculous - in situations where it actually matters what skills you use overload becomes barely usable due to its clunkiness and slowness.

True, but people just see the tooltip and the additional bar and think it's some crazy overpowered stuff.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ofSunhold wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

*sigh*

There's really no point in arguing with forumblades.
I'll make it short.

So sorcs can give away their shield to other classes and get punished for their unique combat role, mobility and range, while also getting their damage nerfed, that is cool.

But suggesting nightblades, who get stronger shields than sorcs (!), can spam their class strength without punishment, and get their damage pushed into top PvE and PvP performance, suggesting nerfing that is not cool?

Right.
Yeah.
Go away.

Well, no. It wasn't cool.

That's why I don't want it to happen to other classes too. Unique class abilities add so much depth to PVP, it's just sad and boring when broken and nerfed abilities force us to be more and more the same. Everyone and his dog isn't running DBOS because it's just so amazing, but because for so many classes it's better than their own ultimates. That sucks. I'm using dampen on my magplar not because it's a great shield, but because my class shield is godawful.

Let nightblades be nightblades, and that includes pissing people off by winking in and out of visibility. There's enough counterplay, they're hardly godlike and alone in their great might in Cyrodiil.

Since the torch waving mobs here basically destroyed Sorc as a usable class, and the devs have NEVER EVER reverted a nerf, and buffed Sorcs ONCE in about two years - not counting the 50+ stupid pet adjustments...

There’s NO other way to fix your class except with the nerf bat. I’m sorry. It’s coming. And it going to hurt.

- Huge Cost increases or utility/damage loss on nightblade ultimates, it’s way too much.
- Some of your passives revisited, passive regen made like everyone else (bad). You’ll have to build for sustain like the rest of us. And lose damage.
- Damage reductions across the board, nightblades are out of line by a long shot.
- Stacking cost increase on cloak. Like dodge roll and streak.

That would be the beginning of seeing you guys balanced in Cyrodiil.

I’d like to see a few buffs instead, but ZOS doesn’t do that, and I’d like to play the damn damage again without the ridiculous single class supremacy.

Wait... what? Sorcs aren't a usable class? Over the past few days I've watched multiple streams/youtube videos of sorcs destroying people in 1vX, and I honestly think they're by far the most popular class in the game after rollerblades.

Yes, this is a #nerfsorc thread now, but you asked for it with comments like that.

There’s a reason every Sorc shield stacks, and running one shield and using streak for mobility isn’t viable.

Feanor wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

It would be nice if ppl, like, played sorc. Calling overload a 3rd bar is pretty ridiculous - in situations where it actually matters what skills you use overload becomes barely usable due to its clunkiness and slowness.

True, but people just see the tooltip and the additional bar and think it's some crazy overpowered stuff.

I can’t count how many times I’ve been stuck in overload because... it won’t let me out.

Why? GRRRR! Press R again, oops, now you’re out, but right back in! Lol!!!

If they made it as easy as a bar swap I’d agree, but it isn’t, and it’ll kill you as often as not.

Feanor

@Minalan

Exactly. Also it's not rare that you can't really discern if the swap out of overload worked because the bar change lags and the weapon doesn't render. Overload is the model of a skill that sounds great on paper but is much less stellar in actual play. I'd vote for a fundamental rework along the lines of a real burst damage ultimate. Get rid of the third bar in the process so the ultimate can be strong. I'd love that.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

"sniper" builds and/or builds that slot lethal arrow are typically called spammers.

Thing is... they can't actually use any abilities other than snipe and piercing mark at that range and they mostly can't be countered with other's attacks.

The thing that most seem to miss is that to be actually "lethal" with ranged snipes you mostly have to dedicate yourself to that as your primary damage source. That means giving up a whole lot of things to do it.

If you don't stack weapon damage, keep relentless up, use empower (mage light, acid spray w/ asylum bow), have a source of major brutality and also have some crit increase (shadow mundus, all divines for example) and force crit with shadowy disguise... you aren't killing anyone with it.

You are forced to run a one dimensional build with glaring weaknesses and be nearly entirely reliant on invisibility as defense.

I'm certainly not advocating for a change to allow lethal arrow to be more lethal with less dedication to it. Just pointing out that no build that is actually a threat with it is anything but totally predictable and one dimensional. You will also invariably be squishy.. It has it's place though... it's not a run into the zerg and duke it out build and requires constant movement and positioning and understanding of the battlefield.

You see a whole lot of complaining about cloak... when an actually "lethal" sniper build can cloak 3 times before they are out of magicka. Most of these complaints aren't actually about cloak though... they are about how some snipers understand the mechanics of stealth and are able to get back into stealth.

Would it surprise anyone to learn that you can fire lethal arrow at a target and hit them and immediately restealth? You can also immediately restealth after killing someone at range... etc.

Love this, it actually works in melee range to you have to kill all the targets you hit and then you can re-enter stealth. Any splash damage or AoE will lock you in combat till all players hit are dead.

Malibulove

Shadowy Disguise probably should just put you into Combat though.

Imagine if Sorcs could Sneak in between Streak spam, or Vamps in between Mist casts... it wouldn't help them in combat really at all. The real question would be why is Streak still allowed to be a CC, or Mist still allowed to grant Damage Reduction on top of them being used to grant Sneak.

And that's always been the knock on Shadowy Disquise, as a Combat ability, it's pretty fairly balanced.

As a get out of Combat and go into Sneak ability, it's kind of busted because it specifically counters the type of abilities opponents would use to break you out of Sneak in the first place.

rfennell_ESO

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

"sniper" builds and/or builds that slot lethal arrow are typically called spammers.

Thing is... they can't actually use any abilities other than snipe and piercing mark at that range and they mostly can't be countered with other's attacks.

The thing that most seem to miss is that to be actually "lethal" with ranged snipes you mostly have to dedicate yourself to that as your primary damage source. That means giving up a whole lot of things to do it.

If you don't stack weapon damage, keep relentless up, use empower (mage light, acid spray w/ asylum bow), have a source of major brutality and also have some crit increase (shadow mundus, all divines for example) and force crit with shadowy disguise... you aren't killing anyone with it.

You are forced to run a one dimensional build with glaring weaknesses and be nearly entirely reliant on invisibility as defense.

I'm certainly not advocating for a change to allow lethal arrow to be more lethal with less dedication to it. Just pointing out that no build that is actually a threat with it is anything but totally predictable and one dimensional. You will also invariably be squishy.. It has it's place though... it's not a run into the zerg and duke it out build and requires constant movement and positioning and understanding of the battlefield.

You see a whole lot of complaining about cloak... when an actually "lethal" sniper build can cloak 3 times before they are out of magicka. Most of these complaints aren't actually about cloak though... they are about how some snipers understand the mechanics of stealth and are able to get back into stealth.

Would it surprise anyone to learn that you can fire lethal arrow at a target and hit them and immediately restealth? You can also immediately restealth after killing someone at range... etc.

Love this, it actually works in melee range to you have to kill all the targets you hit and then you can re-enter stealth. Any splash damage or AoE will lock you in combat till all players hit are dead.

I was pointing out the fact that it's not always detect pots or cloak that people rage against. It's that a single target high damage sniper build can sometimes (if they pick their targets well) be constantly re-entering stealth. Increased detect pot range, duration or a cloak nerf does not actually prevent it.

In case anyone was wondering, any damage done without los at the time of the damage is also restealthable.

Minalan

Malibulove wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise probably should just put you into Combat though.

Imagine if Sorcs could Sneak in between Streak spam, or Vamps in between Mist casts... it wouldn't help them in combat really at all. The real question would be why is Streak still allowed to be a CC, or Mist still allowed to grant Damage Reduction on top of them being used to grant Sneak.

And that's always been the knock on Shadowy Disquise, as a Combat ability, it's pretty fairly balanced.

As a get out of Combat and go into Sneak ability, it's kind of busted because it specifically counters the type of abilities opponents would use to break you out of Sneak in the first place.

I’d be happy to lose the CC on streak, if they got rid of most of the cost stacking.

Can you imagine if cloak cost like 10K Magicka on the third attempt in a row?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Minalan wrote: »

Malibulove wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise probably should just put you into Combat though.

Imagine if Sorcs could Sneak in between Streak spam, or Vamps in between Mist casts... it wouldn't help them in combat really at all. The real question would be why is Streak still allowed to be a CC, or Mist still allowed to grant Damage Reduction on top of them being used to grant Sneak.

And that's always been the knock on Shadowy Disquise, as a Combat ability, it's pretty fairly balanced.

As a get out of Combat and go into Sneak ability, it's kind of busted because it specifically counters the type of abilities opponents would use to break you out of Sneak in the first place.

I’d be happy to lose the CC on streak, if they got rid of most of the cost stacking.

Can you imagine if cloak cost like 10K Magicka on the third attempt in a row?

Problem with that is you would have to remove all counter to cloak for that to work and make sense. If you are going to say that a power to so many counters jumps in cost per use then it has to work every single time or it’s a waste.

Take streak if you are fighting 1vX and you streak away sure anyone with a gap closer on their bar will chase but they have to be ready for it cause if you hit the second streak you are well out of range. Gap closets are the counter to streak. If you gap close you don’t stop streak you just follow on their heels. When you turn are hit with a AoE, Flare, Evil Hunter, Mage Light or in range of a det pot it stops and prevents cloak from working.

To add a stacking cost they would have to make it like streak where it can’t fail just because a counter is used. That means 100% cloak as long as you can pay the cost.

Lord-Otto

You press Cloak, all single target misses you. 100% use.
Ball of Lightning only absorbs magic projectiles, no physical or melee. Streak stun obviously doesn't work on CC immune but also blockers. That's our AoE achilles heel, so to say.
Also, terrain doesn't affect Cloak, but it heavily stunts Streak, often even prevents it while still increasing the cost.
We get stacking cost. Cloak doesn't. Double standard.

Shoot. I wanted to stay outta this...
(-.-)"

rfennell_ESO

Lord-Otto wrote: »

You press Cloak, all single target misses you. 100% use.

Shoot. I wanted to stay outta this...
(-.-)"

Hehe.

I'm guessing you don't actually play a nightblade.

Datthaw

Apache_Kid wrote: »

You don't need more time than it currently allows to burst down a NB after reveal. If you can't burst them down in the allotted time that the pot denies cloak then that's on you.

Edit: You were the same guy who made the "nerf Magblades" thread earlier!

Lol!!!! l2p

I get what you're saying but the problem I see with the pots is stamblades movement speed and the range.

Example being I don't run mark on my magblade (ele drain instead) I use my pot and start attacking. They use immov speed pot and haul ass into the sunset. I get back on horse to keep moving now that pots down and get spambushed. Not idk how increased time would help this situation, other than I could just seem him coming back.

Knootewoot

The_Outsider wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

the sorcerers use that 10 milewide tornado skill on a perminant basis and they move Very Fast, it completely removes Everything from stealth.
it's not fair.

How is it not fair?

It just means stamsorcs don't need to run detect pots.

It's only fair if my fear has 100% uptime in the same radius

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Lord-Otto wrote: »

You press Cloak, all single target misses you. 100% use.
Ball of Lightning only absorbs magic projectiles, no physical or melee. Streak stun obviously doesn't work on CC immune but also blockers. That's our AoE achilles heel, so to say.
Also, terrain doesn't affect Cloak, but it heavily stunts Streak, often even prevents it while still increasing the cost.
We get stacking cost. Cloak doesn't. Double standard.

Shoot. I wanted to stay outta this...
(-.-)"

I don’t know where to start. You can’t streak into a wall, rock or tree. If you have to space infront of you can streak *barring weird heights like running into a hill. All stuns are blocked by blocking it’s not just streak. 100% miss is a beautiful thing when it works.

Shields and blocking stops 100% of crit.

usmcjdking

Detect pots duration needs to be returned to it's original value of base 20 seconds.

Sets like Way of Air and Sentry need to have meaningful detection radials of like 8m. Expert Hunter needs to not be crap and incredibly expensive.

Stamblade and Magblade are the preferred solo builds for a lot of people because cloak is very reliable in comparison to other defensive mag dumps (extended ritual for templar, igneous shield for dk, streak for sorceror) in a 1v1 and against the potato horde. Even then, most solo players that run across a stamblade or magblade do not have the tools equipped to deal with cloak and deal with the potato horde at the same time which makes fighting these two classes in open world absolutely miserable.

Dyride

@ZOS_Wrobel Counters do exist. But cloak is more reliable than counters most of the time.

If when I popped someone from cloak using AOE, they couldn't cloak again for 2 secs then maybe AOE would be reliable. Otherwise I tag the NB with AOE and reveal them, they just cloak again and I haven't even had time to fire any other ability. And since they are typically at the edge of my AOE radius then I probably won't catch them the 2nd cast.

All the people who say Radiant is useful are probably sitting in stealth, see their "eye" start to open and use Radiant to reveal. The range from Radiant is only useful if you already know where they are.

Evil Hunter costs 5400 Stamina without cost reduction!! Good luck with that.

Detect Potions may show you where the NB is, but they can still force-miss single target abilities by using cloak!? So you have to see the NB, cast an AOE to break cloak and then follow up with combos.

There are also not very many good options of Detect Potions for Stamina builds. You can make a Major vitality/Detect but that only lasts 15 secs for both effects so if they aren't dead after that interval then you have nothing for another 30 secs. You can also make a Detect/Weapon Crit but that also does nothing for resources and healing.

The only reliable counter I have found is using reveal poisons, but then I am sacrificing one of my enchants or poisons to counter one of five classes with no benefit to fighting any other class. Plus you have to frontbar it unless you have a ranged backbar to activate it.

rimmidimdim

I main a stamblade, so I'm biased. But I think a five second increase to the 15.7 seconds (is that right?) Is ok. I'd be fine with that. But it would have to be considered a Nerf too all NB's. Cheers.

Minalan

The only thing they need to do is remove the 100% ‘miss’ chance when revealed.

Fix the damn code already.

If player.isvisible then miss_chance = 0%

Stop that. Cloak spam shouldn’t make me miss if you’re in my mage light or detect pot radius.

thankyourat

Minalan wrote: »

The only thing they need to do is remove the 100% ‘miss’ chance when revealed.

Fix the damn code already.

If player.isvisible then miss_chance = 0%

Stop that. Cloak spam shouldn’t make me miss if you’re in my mage light or detect pot radius.

That only works for projectiles. Melee abilities won't miss if you use a detect pot. Range attacks will only miss if the nightblade uses Cloak again after the projectile has been cast so if you use a detect pot you should be fine unless the nightblade is spamming Cloak. I'm also not sure if major evasion still activates while cloaked. I know it can activate while shielded

Minalan

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

The only thing they need to do is remove the 100% ‘miss’ chance when revealed.

Fix the damn code already.

If player.isvisible then miss_chance = 0%

Stop that. Cloak spam shouldn’t make me miss if you’re in my mage light or detect pot radius.

That only works for projectiles. Melee abilities won't miss if you use a detect pot. Range attacks will only miss if the nightblade uses Cloak again after the projectile has been cast so if you use a detect pot you should be fine unless the nightblade is spamming Cloak. I'm also not sure if major evasion still activates while cloaked. I know it can activate while shielded

You’ll note that Sorcs are pretty much ALL projectiles...

I can tag him with another delayed curse or something, but that’s about it.

It’s bull no matter how you look at that bug.

usmcjdking

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

The only thing they need to do is remove the 100% ‘miss’ chance when revealed.

Fix the damn code already.

If player.isvisible then miss_chance = 0%

Stop that. Cloak spam shouldn’t make me miss if you’re in my mage light or detect pot radius.

That only works for projectiles. Melee abilities won't miss if you use a detect pot. Range attacks will only miss if the nightblade uses Cloak again after the projectile has been cast so if you use a detect pot you should be fine unless the nightblade is spamming Cloak. I'm also not sure if major evasion still activates while cloaked. I know it can activate while shielded

This is false. Thi used to be the case which was when gap closers and channeled melee skills could pull you out of cloak if activated before you cloaked.

The 'fix' to that was to give cloak a 100% dodge window. This is well documented.

Thogard

usmcjdking wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

The only thing they need to do is remove the 100% ‘miss’ chance when revealed.

Fix the damn code already.

If player.isvisible then miss_chance = 0%

Stop that. Cloak spam shouldn’t make me miss if you’re in my mage light or detect pot radius.

That only works for projectiles. Melee abilities won't miss if you use a detect pot. Range attacks will only miss if the nightblade uses Cloak again after the projectile has been cast so if you use a detect pot you should be fine unless the nightblade is spamming Cloak. I'm also not sure if major evasion still activates while cloaked. I know it can activate while shielded

This is false. Thi used to be the case which was when gap closers and channeled melee skills could pull you out of cloak if activated before you cloaked.

The 'fix' to that was to give cloak a 100% dodge window. This is well documented.

^

Yup