Guild bank funds

Androconium · February 2018

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Why does it cost 10 Million? Where does the other 20M go?

You didn't answer this.

Does your 'alliance' of guilds (Partner Guilds with: Coroner's Report, Children of Skyrim, Sunshine Daydream, Tamriel Fisheries, Knights Arcanum and more) transfer money between each other to guarantee a regular placement?

How is that fair to other, single-operator guilds?

20 000 000 GP? Where does that go? The sink?

D0PAMINE · February 2018

Considering how much my liquidated former Rawl'kha guild had to deal with spies, I welcomed this change. I have a good relationship with my GM where I would trust them with literally anthing ESO related. I hope for those of you who havnt found a Guild like that yet, will find one soon.

Oh, and my GM is working on his Masters degree and running 3 guilds.

Taleof2Cities · February 2018

@Androconium, you’re naming and shaming on top of spouting conspiracy theories ... a double no-no.

Slick_007 · February 2018

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

someone has issues!

is this is how paranoid you are, how about you start a successful trade guild and bid on traders. that way, you are the guild leader and you can decide that your own guild cant see the gold. and then they can accuse you of stealing from them. and then you can refer them back to this suggestion.

found the guild leader that's fleecing his members.

i call you paranoid, you call me a thief. No wonder nobody wants you in their guilds. FYI, the only guild im a leader of is one that contains me, myself and i.

Erraln · February 2018

Androconium wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Why does it cost 10 Million? Where does the other 20M go?

You didn't answer this.

Does your 'alliance' of guilds (Partner Guilds with: Coroner's Report, Children of Skyrim, Sunshine Daydream, Tamriel Fisheries, Knights Arcanum and more) transfer money between each other to guarantee a regular placement?

How is that fair to other, single-operator guilds?

20 000 000 GP? Where does that go? The sink?

You got confused by some spitballed numbers without proper clarification. wenchmore's 30m comment only meant this; the only players who single-handedly contribute meaningfully to bid costs with their tax revenue are those who are doing more sales than many entire guilds make per week. By themselves. In their example 30m revenue * 3.5% tax returned to the guild = 1.05m taxes in the period chosen (a week?) for the guild. Selling that much is silly, sometimes people do it but it's beyond almost everyone.

So even a merchant like that, through taxes alone, can't pay for a high-end trader bid by themselves. And as for someone who complains about hitting 50k revenue a week, why, they make the guild 1,750g for their trouble.

This is why donations are so commonly asked for, or dues demanded. Understand? You don't get to keep a good spot in this game's 'fundraising meta', so to speak... just from sales. No matter whose sales they are. The guy who has all those powerful merchants AND is willing to run a raffle and auction etc. is just going to have more money to outbid you than you will, if you don't.

Any questions?

MrsPink · February 2018

Kinda wondering if some thinks the guild get the same amount from the sale as they do?

MrsPink · February 2018

Erraln wrote: »

And as for someone who complains about hitting 50k revenue a week, why, they make the guild 1,750g for their trouble.

This!

pattyLtd · February 2018

The transparancy you want and expect isnt very common IRL at all.
I do think everyone could see their own deposits but the guilds have to make do with he very limited tools they have.

I know several guild leaders of large trading guilds and they barely have time to even play anyother part of the game.

Many players dont realize the absurd amounts that are paid for a kiosk every single week and i wouldnt be able to put myself through so much work in a game as they do.

Maybe some incidental scams happened here and there, i dont know but my experience with large guild traders is that the leaders are extremely devoted to it and work their asses of to get you a good spot to sell your overpriced crap.

You have the right to leave, do it!

monktoasty · February 2018

The guild sysyem needs a lot of work. I'd make guild gold non withdrawable and all bids and important guild purchases are taken from the guild bank directly. Only certain purchases work like this.

Guild money should never be a personal atm for guild leaders.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · February 2018

Erraln wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Why does it cost 10 Million? Where does the other 20M go?

You didn't answer this.

Does your 'alliance' of guilds (Partner Guilds with: Coroner's Report, Children of Skyrim, Sunshine Daydream, Tamriel Fisheries, Knights Arcanum and more) transfer money between each other to guarantee a regular placement?

How is that fair to other, single-operator guilds?

20 000 000 GP? Where does that go? The sink?

You got confused by some spitballed numbers without proper clarification. wenchmore's 30m comment only meant this; the only players who single-handedly contribute meaningfully to bid costs with their tax revenue are those who are doing more sales than many entire guilds make per week. By themselves. In their example 30m revenue * 3.5% tax returned to the guild = 1.05m taxes in the period chosen (a week?) for the guild. Selling that much is silly, sometimes people do it but it's beyond almost everyone.

So even a merchant like that, through taxes alone, can't pay for a high-end trader bid by themselves. And as for someone who complains about hitting 50k revenue a week, why, they make the guild 1,750g for their trouble.

This is why donations are so commonly asked for, or dues demanded. Understand? You don't get to keep a good spot in this game's 'fundraising meta', so to speak... just from sales. No matter whose sales they are. The guy who has all those powerful merchants AND is willing to run a raffle and auction etc. is just going to have more money to outbid you than you will, if you don't.

Any questions?

Thank you for clarifying that for me.
The point I was trying to make, was about his statement of " I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week."

I was using a ballpark example of how much they would have to sell to cover a trader off of just tax's to try and show the reality of that statement.
I apologize for the confusion of understanding what a minuscule amount 3.5% is.

I posted originally because so many don't understand how guild traders "really" work and to clarify that "No, GM's don't get rich stealing from members".
As a result I got caught in a "Troll Trap".

@Androconium
I really shouldn't even justify you with a response after your double "Naming & Shaming", (FYI...aginst ZoS ToS), but, let me explain something. Not all guilds are trade guilds. The one's you had to borrow from my signature are small to mid social guilds run by great caring people. We are "Sister" guilds as we help each other, and not with gold, but support, running events together, help with gear, share news, etc.
I was just trying to discuss and explain a system that you don't understand and you attack not just me, but innocent guilds and their GM's in the process.
With that I think I am done here. I bid you a good day.

monktoasty · February 2018

Orjix wrote: »

I don't see any problem with this, just like any company you work for they have no need to tell you everything, there is no need for you to know how much they spend on a trader. It in no way diminishes or enhances you experiance

How do you think we work for the guild?

I say..there should be generic vendors owned by zos and anyone can put items inton these vendors.

monktoasty · February 2018

cyclonus11 wrote: »

It's a consequence of being able to join 5 guilds. What if a leader of another guild is in yours, and uses trader bid info to outbid your guild?

Anyone can be a spy.

We would only need one guild if there wasn't a max of 30 items

Stinkyremy · February 2018

MY rule is that I only donate to a guild if the guild bank is open. If the guild bank is open I save loot while questing for the guild, recipes, diagrams, gear ect, instead of just selling to merchant or deconning, and everything I take from the guild bank I try to put a fair amount in loot and/or gold in return.
Other than that I don't donate, but if we have a trader spot, a good one, which one of my current guilds does, I deposit weekly doos to pay for it, as we all should.

I have seen a lot of guild leaders become so extremely greedy, and I have seen pleasant happy guilds, that help each other turn sour, into money hungry trading guilds "alliances" in a way to get a monopoly.
That vast amount of money a guild can accumulate is too much for some to look at before the greed and lust kicks in like golem from lord of the rings.
Best to not see where the money is and just pay a micro amount for the service you are getting from the guild.

rustic_potato · February 2018

Wow people care about trading guilds?

I'm in 5 trading guilds and they are the top ones on my server (alt account). Never donated or paid a single gold to them. One of them even has weekly donation requirement. Just told the GM that either they could waive the requirement and enjoy the tax from the sales I bring or I will move to another trading guild.

I mean I just need a stall in a prime location doesn't matter which guild it is. I don't understand people getting emotionally involved with trading guilds. For me the guilds are just slots for selling stuff nothing more and they get taxes from my sales. Win - win arrangement.

Androconium · February 2018

Re paranoia:

I don't agree with the naming-and-shaming issue. I mentioned guild names quoted in a signature and asked a question relative to the issue. I reviewed my posts and could not see where I had linked a player name with adverse behaviour. If anyone feels justified in reporting an issue, then you can take that justification and report the issue formally. As long as it's justified.

@wenchmore420b14_ESO

The one's you had to borrow from my signature are small to mid social guilds run by great caring people. We are "Sister" guilds as we help each other, and not with gold, but support, running events together, help with gear, share news, etc.

The point here is that all that type of information is not available when I join a guild. It may be available on the Guild page or MOTD, after I join, or it may not. I'm glad that you don't have to share your gold with your sister guilds. Maybe they aren't trading guilds.
If you're in some way embarrassed by readers linking those guilds to your comments, then that's really an issue that only you can manage.

As to conspiracy theories; there are no theories. The facts have been demonstrated, both in-game and here. A number of guilds conspire to create 'partnerships' to increase the amount of funds coming in. I suggest that your review the definition of the word conspiracy from this perspective. Any negative connotation comes from the fact the the guild's 450-500 players are either unaware of, or have no say in the issue and therefore the plans are "in secret". Making announcements prior to any negotiation might help, but that's unlikely now, isn't it?

To the point:

As a player, I am confused and somewhat intimidated by the operation of some guilds on EU server. I think I was a member of one NA guild, during a very brief experience on that server. here's some of the negativity:

Being asked how much I can sell.
Being told that I need to sell a minimum amount, or provide donation.
Being told that the guild that I'm joining is new, only to find later that this was a 'new member' of some conglomerate

What do I get?
the opportunity to sell an additional 30 items. Assuming that the guild's power sellers don't undercut me.
not much else, from most trading-only guilds

Androconium · February 2018

Orjix wrote: »

I don't see any problem with this, just like any company you work for they have no need to tell you everything, there is no need for you to know how much they spend on a trader. It in no way diminishes or enhances you experiance

Any company that I work for pays me.

lordhakai · February 2018

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Considering how much my liquidated former Rawl'kha guild had to deal with spies, I welcomed this change. I have a good relationship with my GM where I would trust them with literally anthing ESO related. I hope for those of you who havnt found a Guild like that yet, will find one soon.

Oh, and my GM is working on his Masters degree and running 3 guilds.

Oh @dopamine how sweet.

lordhakai · February 2018

Easily_Lost wrote: »

"Androconium wrote: »

<snip>I don't donate either. I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week. If they can't, then so long, that's competition.<snip>

Listing fees DO NOT go to the guilds. Only part of the 'commission of sales' amount goes the guild.

On personal note: It does not bother me if I can't see where the guild money goes, as long as I make money. I am part of 4 trading guilds. I have been keeping track of my sales for the past several week ( on paper ) to see how much money I make. So far I have been making 50,000+ gold each week ( that is after I donate a minimum of 50,000 gold in raffle tickets ). I wish I could do that in real life LOL.

@Easily_Lost you are a great seller and a valued guild member I am happy you are enjoying your sales.

Konstant_Tel_Necris · February 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Guilds didn't decide on this change, ZOS did, and it's a good one.

It prevents spies from rival trade guilds from infiltrating a guild just to see how much gold it has in the guild bank (even though most trade guilds keep their gold with guild leaders).

Didn't know there are such intrigues and machinations between guilds, I suppose it is part of trade wars of trading guilds.
Does there is price manipulation goes as well like in stock exchanges?

midgetfromtheshire · February 2018

Androconium wrote: »

Re paranoia:

As to conspiracy theories; there are no theories. The facts have been demonstrated, both in-game and here. A number of guilds conspire to create 'partnerships' to increase the amount of funds coming in. I suggest that your review the definition of the word conspiracy from this perspective. Any negative connotation comes from the fact the the guild's 450-500 players are either unaware of, or have no say in the issue and therefore the plans are "in secret". Making announcements prior to any negotiation might help, but that's unlikely now, isn't it?

And what conspiracy are they planning to commit that is negative for the guild? I don't see anything wrong with guilds that pool resources together to help each other.

To the point:

As a player, I am confused and somewhat intimidated by the operation of some guilds on EU server. I think I was a member of one NA guild, during a very brief experience on that server.

here's some of the negativity:
Being asked how much I can sell.

Being told that I need to sell a minimum amount, or provide donation.

Being told that the guild that I'm joining is new, only to find later that this was a 'new member' of some conglomerate

What do I get?
the opportunity to sell an additional 30 items. Assuming that the guild's power sellers don't undercut me.
not much else, from most trading-only guilds

Here's an analogy, do you tell a bank that you are confused and they are being negative when they ask your ability to meet repayments to pay off a loan? Or perhaps an employer when they ask for a resume after you applied for a position?

No. You are nothing more than a individual that is using the guild for it's services, i.e. guild trader, if you are friendly with them, that's an added bonus. With membership being capped, if you can't meet the minimum requirements, then it's the GM's discretion if you are kicked or not.

dvonpm · March 2018

Androconium wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Why does it cost 10 Million? Where does the other 20M go?

You didn't answer this.

Does your 'alliance' of guilds ....transfer money between each other to guarantee a regular placement?

How is that fair to other, single-operator guilds?

20 000 000 GP? Where does that go? The sink?

Ok enough with the naming and shaming. I'm not familiar with those guilds, but it doesn't matter. Here's what my guild (which is not one of the ones you mentioned) does with extra gold, when we are operating above margin (which is not always). BAsically 2 things- warchest and guild house ammenities.

We keep a "warchest" in the guild bank to sustain the sometimes weeks long trader wars that can happen. Periodically guilds will try to push you out and you have to make massive bids for weeks on end to fight them off.

This has happened to my guild more times than I can remember and we nearly did lose our spot permanently before we had built up that warchest. We could not have kept our very good spot without me and other officers and few super generous guildies willing to scrimp gold in a pinch and fight for our spot. And by being very, very responsible with the money. (You are welcome, said every GM, officer, and super generous guildie ever.)

You want to keep the spot, you are gonna have to help pay for it, it's that simple. And no, the 350g from your 10k sales is not really helping on a 3million + bid. It's one thing for new players, but if you've been around, not only can you help, but it's your responsibility. If you have the means and just aren't pitching in, you're basically just leaching.

So we have a set amount for the warchest and when we get above that we increase raffle prizes or have other events with to give money back. We never really get above that amount for long.

There are also just periodic increases in the bid prices. We need to be prepared for those, as you expect us to be. We need your gold to do that cause we ain't making 10 million a week sending out confirmation emails for every bank deposit.

Second, as for sharing gold, I only know of this happening for "sister" guilds essentially run by the same person or people, and I suspect that's in large part because it's too time consuming to duplicate activities like raffles. These people are awesome and doing a ton of work for our benefit. It is not necessarily evil, and since I have never even heard of those guilds I'm geussing not that effective.

The only thing our alliance with other guilds does is basically a non-aggression pact to not mess with each other's trader spots and a shared teamspeak, and I don't even know who pays for that.

Also - guilds are not companies! There is no profit, there is ony a group of 500-ish constantly rotating people pooling their resources to pay for and reliably keep a shared resource- the trader. Contribute or don't, but 499 people don't owe you their time so you can get something for free that you can afford to help pay for, but won't.

People work their asses off, spend real money and valuable time to make this work for others for no real benefit and all you can do is complain about how much they owe you?

Rude.

/endrant

Edited to Add:

Not done with rant. The time I just spent explaining to you what you should already know is the time I should have spent managing the guild roster and setting up a new raffle, and now lost the one f*&@ing hour of me time I had for the night. And several of those prizes are going to come from my inventory.

Grr.

Armatesz · March 2018

I can understand some of the defense some people have over the guild trader spies in the works. But to say others don't have a right to ask is downright authoritarian down to its very core. I swear I see too many people obsess over selling this or that in the game. Market value for stuff doesn't make a lick of sense to me. People talk about trying to make a lot of money and try to chase after some of the slower ways to make money... seems odd. I'm not sure where their aim for making money is at. Thought it would have been nice to see others just explore and have fun, do a bit of this and that and actually try to have fun, outside of just making money.
You don't have to be in a guild to make money... and big money at that, you don't even need to sell to get a lot of money either.

Armatesz · March 2018

Need I also remind others that if you feel like others don't have a right to know how your guild is doing its funding (if they are of those that are accountable and not some random new person that you can't be sure is a spy or whatever) then remind yourself of the times that there are people that wind up asking for funds for either a new mount (when you could buy the 10k mount) or for funds to help them respec their skills or their champion points... do you scoff them then? Well this can be placed in the same boat as that.

FrancisCrawford · March 2018

Here's what I'm unclear on -- how do guildmasters know what magnitude bid will be needed to win a trader?

There has to be some information-sharing going on among guilds -- which is probably much more of a good thing than a bad one, given how unstable this "Sealed bids; bid on one trader only" system otherwise would be.

disintegr8 · March 2018

All I can say is if you can't see the guilds gold balance and you don't trust your GM, leave the guild.

MLGProPlayer · March 2018

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Here's what I'm unclear on -- how do guildmasters know what magnitude bid will be needed to win a trader?

There has to be some information-sharing going on among guilds -- which is probably much more of a good thing than a bad one, given how unstable this "Sealed bids; bid on one trader only" system otherwise would be.

Experience? If you bid on the same trader each week, you know what the bidding rates are obviously.

runagate · March 2018

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Here's what I'm unclear on -- how do guildmasters know what magnitude bid will be needed to win a trader?

There has to be some information-sharing going on among guilds -- which is probably much more of a good thing than a bad one, given how unstable this "Sealed bids; bid on one trader only" system otherwise would be.

Clearly experience alone is insufficient, otherwise no guild would ever lose their trader, always knowing the cheapest amount to bid. Seems pretty obvious even to someone like me who has no interest in the topic.

dvonpm · March 2018

Armatesz wrote: »

I can understand some of the defense some people have over the guild trader spies in the works. But to say others don't have a right to ask is downright authoritarian down to its very core.

Did anyone actually say that, though?

You can ask. You prolly won't get a specific answer, but you can ask.

dvonpm · March 2018

runagate wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Here's what I'm unclear on -- how do guildmasters know what magnitude bid will be needed to win a trader?

There has to be some information-sharing going on among guilds -- which is probably much more of a good thing than a bad one, given how unstable this "Sealed bids; bid on one trader only" system otherwise would be.

Clearly experience alone is insufficient, otherwise no guild would ever lose their trader, always knowing the cheapest amount to bid. Seems pretty obvious even to someone like me who has no interest in the topic.

Its a guess every week and you can always be outbid. That's how bidding works. You can get trolled by a 14 year old kid who does nothing but flip gold mats until they have 80 mil and can outbid anyone, anytime.

The point of having a guild is that you pool your resources to deal with those a$$hole troll bidders until they get bored and move on or run out of gold.

That is why you have the extra money that some jerko people think is just going in GM pockets, like magic.

SteveCampsOut · March 2018

Jura23 wrote: »

MrsPink wrote: »

And they have a trader where?

If this question was for me - Orsinium, which is pretty good in my opinion.

Well now the world knows that Orsinium has cheap traders that they can most likely out bid thanks to you. Good job buddy. I hope your guild leader is proud when someone comes along and knocks your guild out of it's trader. Seeing as how your guild doesn't raise any money that doesn't come from sales. I'm betting the trader can be had for a song.