Guild bank funds

Bhaal5

Slick_007 wrote: »

someone has issues!

is this is how paranoid you are, how about you start a successful trade guild and bid on traders. that way, you are the guild leader and you can decide that your own guild cant see the gold. and then they can accuse you of stealing from them. and then you can refer them back to this suggestion.

This fella gets it

DarcyMardin

I don’t care about seeing the total amount of money that’s in the guild bank, but I do care about seeing that my own deposits are actually received by the bank. Particularly because of the above-mentioned bug, which affected me this week in one of my guilds. I made a donation via a guild bank deposit, but the guild bank did not receive the funds. I only found out because someone in the guild kindly sends in-game mail acknowledgements for all deposits, and I didn’t receive one. I then contacted a guild officer and found out that they had no record of my donation.

I didn’t want the guild to be stiffed because of a game bug, so I made a second donation, which went thru. Then I submitted a ticket about the first failed deposit.

The good news is that the help team at ZOS responded quickly and replaced my missing gold within a couple of hours. Thank you! But it would obviously be a whole lot better for everyone involved if the long-standing guild bank bug were fixed, or, failing that, if bank deposits could be verified by the system at the time of deposit.

idk

AAA Had Enough wrote: »

Recently guilds have decided that members are not entitled to see how much gold the guild has, how much they bid on a trader or any say in what they spend members money on. Guilds are handing gold to select members to buy houses etc. All members should be allowed to know what the guild is doing with the gold they get from members and sales. Like any organisation people join said organisation has an obligation to it's members to be open about everything the guild is doing especially when it comes to money. (any feedback would be appreciated)

Trade guilds have an obligation to their members to do what they an do to ensure winning the bid for a trader.

Some guild when to the extreme of spying on the bids of other guilds which was easy since anyone could see how much gold went to the bid. This forced leadership of trading guilds to do their bids at the last minute since the gold and transaction could not be hidden

Zos added the feature to give guild leaders the option to hide the gold to protect this competitive information so if the trading guild you are in has hidden the information it is to protect the interests of everyone in the guild.

It is the guild leaders choice to determine what the members should know. If you feel they are dishonest, find a different guild and does not hide the information or form your own. It is that easy. Granted, the guild could make the gold visible until they are ready to bid then hide it and keep it hidden until the bidding process is complete.

MrsPink

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I made a donation via a guild bank deposit, but the guild bank did not receive the funds. I only found out because someone in the guild kindly sends in-game mail acknowledgements for all deposits, and I didn’t receive one. I then contacted a guild officer and found out that they had no record of my donation.

Oh wow. How in the world does someone have the time to write an in game mail for every deposit?

And for the OP: This is just an example of how much time your gm and/or officers spend on making sure the guild run smoothly. And really - If you believe your gm is "stealing" gold from the guild - leave. Make room for someone who appreciates the amount of work and not to mention TIME an individual takes out of their gameplay to make sure you have a good experience.

Recruiting, updating notes, keeping track of deposits, keeping it social, making sure you help newbies, etc, etc.. All of that takes time. A lot of time. Time they could have spent on actually playing, but they are dedicating their time to make sure YOU have an extra perk. Cause a good guild is an extra perk. And - as mentioned earlier, most GM's of trade guilds put in a lot of their own gold into the guild. Some weeks more then all deposits combined. They farm to get good items for raffles. Where do you think the raffle prizes come from? They just suddenly appear? No, someone farmed for them, and is giving it away to make sure the guild has a better chance in the ratrace it is to get a good trader. Now are they complaining? No. Cause I bet most of them, like me, want their guild to succeed. The amount of time I spend on it is worth it when the members are happy.

Bottom line - most GMs want the guilds to succeed. Taking out gold is kinda defeating the purpose of succeeding.
Rant over.

Now some will still say that if you can see deposits then you can, if you make an effort, figure out the bank balance. I would suggest making it an option to just have each member see their own deposit.

Androconium

Turelus wrote: »

OP ask yourself this. Are you getting what you want out of that guild for the money you invest?

• Yes: Who cares what happens with the money, you're getting your value.
• No: Find one where the answer is yes.

It's really this simple. You could even start your own guild and have an open poly showing what gold you make and how you spend it. Do monthly economic reports for your guild even.

Yes, it's very simple.

• Get kicked for not meeting a sales target; or
• Get branded guild-hopper when you exercise your freedom of choice by leaving a guild.

I don't donate either. I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week. If they can't, then so long, that's competition.

I asked one Guild looking for sellers, where their trader was "In Belkarth", but they couldn't remember the Trader name. Al that for a 50 000 minimum turnover?

Mother wants me to work in the mill, but I ain't nobody's slave.

A large proportion of Guild Masters are what I would describe as 'turds'.

Androconium

Turelus wrote: »

OP ask yourself this. Are you getting what you want out of that guild for the money you invest?

• Yes: Who cares what happens with the money, you're getting your value.
• No: Find one where the answer is yes.

It's really this simple. You could even start your own guild and have an open poly showing what gold you make and how you spend it. Do monthly economic reports for your guild even.

Yes, it's very simple.

• Get kicked for not meeting a sales target; or
• Get branded guild-hopper when you exercise your freedom of choice by leaving a guild.

I don't donate either. I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week. If they can't, then so long, that's competition.

I asked one Guild looking for sellers, where their trader was: "In Belkarth", but they couldn't remember the Trader name. All that for a 50 000 minimum turnover? A large proportion of Guild Masters are what I would describe as 'turds'.

Mother wants me to work in the mill, but I ain't nobody's slave.

(edited for typos)

agegarton

Androconium wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

OP ask yourself this. Are you getting what you want out of that guild for the money you invest?

• Yes: Who cares what happens with the money, you're getting your value.
• No: Find one where the answer is yes.

It's really this simple. You could even start your own guild and have an open poly showing what gold you make and how you spend it. Do monthly economic reports for your guild even.

Yes, it's very simple.

• Get kicked for not meeting a sales target; or
• Get branded guild-hopper when you exercise your freedom of choice by leaving a guild.

I don't donate either. I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week. If they can't, then so long, that's competition.

I asked one Guild looking for sellers, where their trader was: "In Belkarth", but they couldn't remember the Trader name. All that for a 50 000 minimum turnover? A large proportion of Guild Masters are what I would describe as 'turds'.

Mother wants me to work in the mill, but I ain't nobody's slave.

(edited for typos)

You sound exactly like the kind of player that I’m not looking for, for my guild.

Running a guild is a tough gig and very few, if any, GMs are taking any gold for themselves. It’s a pretty thankless task. I can only state how lucky I am to have some terrific guild members in Lone Star, who donate, who trade, who are helpful to one another, and who want to engage in the community - those guys make it worthwhile. It’s the “take take take” players who refer to “most GMs as turds” or who expect the world on a plate, who should go play WoW and give us all a break.

MrsPink

agegarton wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

OP ask yourself this. Are you getting what you want out of that guild for the money you invest?

• Yes: Who cares what happens with the money, you're getting your value.
• No: Find one where the answer is yes.

It's really this simple. You could even start your own guild and have an open poly showing what gold you make and how you spend it. Do monthly economic reports for your guild even.

Yes, it's very simple.

• Get kicked for not meeting a sales target; or
• Get branded guild-hopper when you exercise your freedom of choice by leaving a guild.

I don't donate either. I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week. If they can't, then so long, that's competition.

I asked one Guild looking for sellers, where their trader was: "In Belkarth", but they couldn't remember the Trader name. All that for a 50 000 minimum turnover? A large proportion of Guild Masters are what I would describe as 'turds'.

Mother wants me to work in the mill, but I ain't nobody's slave.

(edited for typos)

You sound exactly like the kind of player that I’m not looking for, for my guild.

Running a guild is a tough gig and very few, if any, GMs are taking any gold for themselves. It’s a pretty thankless task. I can only state how lucky I am to have some terrific guild members in Lone Star, who donate, who trade, who are helpful to one another, and who want to engage in the community - those guys make it worthwhile. It’s the “take take take” players who refer to “most GMs as turds” or who expect the world on a plate, who should go play WoW and give us all a break.

YES!!

DieAlteHexe

agegarton wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

OP ask yourself this. Are you getting what you want out of that guild for the money you invest?

• Yes: Who cares what happens with the money, you're getting your value.
• No: Find one where the answer is yes.

It's really this simple. You could even start your own guild and have an open poly showing what gold you make and how you spend it. Do monthly economic reports for your guild even.

Yes, it's very simple.

• Get kicked for not meeting a sales target; or
• Get branded guild-hopper when you exercise your freedom of choice by leaving a guild.

I don't donate either. I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week. If they can't, then so long, that's competition.

I asked one Guild looking for sellers, where their trader was: "In Belkarth", but they couldn't remember the Trader name. All that for a 50 000 minimum turnover? A large proportion of Guild Masters are what I would describe as 'turds'.

Mother wants me to work in the mill, but I ain't nobody's slave.

(edited for typos)

You sound exactly like the kind of player that I’m not looking for, for my guild.

Running a guild is a tough gig and very few, if any, GMs are taking any gold for themselves. It’s a pretty thankless task. I can only state how lucky I am to have some terrific guild members in Lone Star, who donate, who trade, who are helpful to one another, and who want to engage in the community - those guys make it worthwhile. It’s the “take take take” players who refer to “most GMs as turds” or who expect the world on a plate, who should go play WoW and give us all a break.

I ran a guild...once. It was not even close to being all about "power" and "greed". It was almost literally, like a second job and, for the most part, I commend those who have the patience and endurance to be a GM. Never again for me. Hell, not even officer level.

Nihility42

What makes you think guilds need to be opne about their finances? There are valid reasons for them not to be. The way the guild trader bidding system works in ESO, it is a liability to allow people to know the guild's financial status.

And I don't know where you get this idea that all organizations need to be completely transparent about their finances. Plenty of real world businesses don't opemn their books to just anyone.

Jura23

Orjix wrote: »

Yarlenzey wrote: »

Certain guilds and their senior members are manipulating this game for their own, real-world benefit.
These people ask for donations, demand minimum sales targets, take a fee for listings and then do absolutely nothing to promote guild sales

To retaliate:

• Don't sweat minimum sales targets.
• Don't donate.
• Change guilds often.
• Don't buy mats

They need you more than you need them. How much did you pay for those items you looted again?

I have come across one (and only one) guild that offers a great balance between being a trading guild and a vibrant social guild.

If the guild doesn't take taxes, doesn't have a sales target, or require a small weekly fee, how in Nirn are they going to be able to afford a good trader?

I am at such guild. I was looking for over a month for it, but it was worth it.

MrsPink

And they have a trader where?

Jura23

MrsPink wrote: »

And they have a trader where?

If this question was for me - Orsinium, which is pretty good in my opinion.

Prof_Bawbag

MrsPink wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I made a donation via a guild bank deposit, but the guild bank did not receive the funds. I only found out because someone in the guild kindly sends in-game mail acknowledgements for all deposits, and I didn’t receive one. I then contacted a guild officer and found out that they had no record of my donation.

Oh wow. How in the world does someone have the time to write an in game mail for every deposit?

And for the OP: This is just an example of how much time your gm and/or officers spend on making sure the guild run smoothly. And really - If you believe your gm is "stealing" gold from the guild - leave. Make room for someone who appreciates the amount of work and not to mention TIME an individual takes out of their gameplay to make sure you have a good experience.

Recruiting, updating notes, keeping track of deposits, keeping it social, making sure you help newbies, etc, etc.. All of that takes time. A lot of time. Time they could have spent on actually playing, but they are dedicating their time to make sure YOU have an extra perk. Cause a good guild is an extra perk. And - as mentioned earlier, most GM's of trade guilds put in a lot of their own gold into the guild. Some weeks more then all deposits combined. They farm to get good items for raffles. Where do you think the raffle prizes come from? They just suddenly appear? No, someone farmed for them, and is giving it away to make sure the guild has a better chance in the ratrace it is to get a good trader. Now are they complaining? No. Cause I bet most of them, like me, want their guild to succeed. The amount of time I spend on it is worth it when the members are happy.

Bottom line - most GMs want the guilds to succeed. Taking out gold is kinda defeating the purpose of succeeding.
Rant over.

Now some will still say that if you can see deposits then you can, if you make an effort, figure out the bank balance. I would suggest making it an option to just have each member see their own deposit.

Aye, dinnae mess with Mrs P

MrsPink

Haha @Prof_Bawbag. Nice to see you!

Prof_Bawbag

Jura23 wrote: »

MrsPink wrote: »

And they have a trader where?

If this question was for me - Orsinium, which is pretty good in my opinion.

The problem with Orsinium or any dlc it automatically cuts you off from a number of potential buyers. Never been a huge fan of dlc areas for that very reason. DLC traders from my own personal experience are fine for smaller non trading orientated guilds or for large trading guilds who have lost their main bid and managed to obtain a trader via a snipe. When it's a case of any trader is better than no trader.

DLC areas also have an inevitable dip in traffic too. CWC is kinda dropping off now too.

MrsPink

Bottom line here. The big really good trading guilds, at least on PS4 EU - has GMs that spend more time than an average person spend at their job, on making sure their guild runs smoothly, and so that they can afford a main city trader. Do you think they would put in that amount of time, and usually a lot of their own gold, and then go and sabotage it? Really?

DuckNoodles

Iv been in several guilds that keep the excess money for them selfs.

Example.
When we could see how much was in the pot.
Guild members donate to the pot. 2mill in the pot.

Guild leader bids for a 1mill trader then keeps the other 1mill.
This goes on every week.

Now members can't even see how much is in the pot or how much guild leaders keep.......

This is why I never donate money to guild traders! i have over 5mill and 800+ legendary mats all from trading over zone chat.

Remember when in a trading guild you donate money every week and then there's a big fat fee on top of a big sale your doing,
So if you do the maths it's actually more beneficial to your self selling over zone chat.

Easily_Lost

"Androconium wrote: »

<snip>I don't donate either. I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week. If they can't, then so long, that's competition.<snip>

Listing fees DO NOT go to the guilds. Only part of the 'commission of sales' amount goes the guild.

On personal note: It does not bother me if I can't see where the guild money goes, as long as I make money. I am part of 4 trading guilds. I have been keeping track of my sales for the past several week ( on paper ) to see how much money I make. So far I have been making 50,000+ gold each week ( that is after I donate a minimum of 50,000 gold in raffle tickets ). I wish I could do that in real life LOL.

Nihility42

DuckNoodles wrote: »

Iv been in several guilds that keep the excess money for them selfs.

Example.
When we could see how much was in the pot.
Guild members donate to the pot. 2mill in the pot.

Guild leader bids for a 1mill trader then keeps the other 1mill.
This goes on every week.

Now members can't even see how much is in the pot or how much guild leaders keep.......

This is why I never donate money to guild traders! i have over 5mill and 800+ legendary mats all from trading over zone chat.

Remember when in a training guild you donate money every week and then there's a big fat fee on top of a big sale your doing,
So if you do the maths it's actually more beneficial to your self selling over zone chat.

There's a pretty large time and opportunity cost selling in zone chat though. I can leave 120 slots filled in a guild trader and maybe sell 20 things overnight. Or I can have those same slots filled during a play session and actually enjoy myself in PVP or farming more stuff to sell or whatever the case may be. Plus you can't reasonably list that many items in zone chat.

cyclonus11

It's a consequence of being able to join 5 guilds. What if a leader of another guild is in yours, and uses trader bid info to outbid your guild?

Anyone can be a spy.

Prof_Bawbag

DuckNoodles wrote: »

Iv been in several guilds that keep the excess money for them selfs.

Example.
When we could see how much was in the pot.
Guild members donate to the pot. 2mill in the pot.

Guild leader bids for a 1mill trader then keeps the other 1mill.
This goes on every week.

Now members can't even see how much is in the pot or how much guild leaders keep.......

This is why I never donate money to guild traders! i have over 5mill and 800+ legendary mats all from trading over zone chat.

Remember when in a trading guild you donate money every week and then there's a big fat fee on top of a big sale your doing,
So if you do the maths it's actually more beneficial to your self selling over zone chat.

If you didn't actually question the GM about that, then that's a very unfair assumption to make. Some of the smaller to medium guilds do that so they can bid on a trader the following week and the next. I know I'm in a guild which can make up to 1m some weeks, but only spends around 600k on the trader. That 400k remains in the bank for a week where donations are way down. Which does happen. If you trust the GM, then you'll usually find there's a valid reason why certain things don't automatically add up.

DuckNoodles

@Nihility42

That is true, but I always sell in big bulks and only sell in big bulks.

300 alloys
300 wax
300 rosin

Oh and do you know, the highest percentage of players who trade with me.... you guessed it!

Guild leaders.... lol

Nihility42

DuckNoodles wrote: »

@Nihility42

That is true, but I always sell in big bulks and only sell in big bulks.

300 alloys
300 wax
300 rosin

Oh and do you know, the highest percentage of players who trade with me.... you guessed it!

Guild leaders.... lol

Fair enough. For bulk tempers like that zone is much better in general. I do mostly gear flipping and other lower volume stuff, so it's not as sustainable for me. Sounds like it's working for you though.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Androconium wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

OP ask yourself this. Are you getting what you want out of that guild for the money you invest?

• Yes: Who cares what happens with the money, you're getting your value.
• No: Find one where the answer is yes.

It's really this simple. You could even start your own guild and have an open poly showing what gold you make and how you spend it. Do monthly economic reports for your guild even.

Yes, it's very simple.

• Get kicked for not meeting a sales target; or
• Get branded guild-hopper when you exercise your freedom of choice by leaving a guild.

I don't donate either. I pay listing fees and commissions of sales. For that I expect my guild to be capable of retaining a Trader every week. If they can't, then so long, that's competition.

I asked one Guild looking for sellers, where their trader was: "In Belkarth", but they couldn't remember the Trader name. All that for a 50 000 minimum turnover? A large proportion of Guild Masters are what I would describe as 'turds'.

Mother wants me to work in the mill, but I ain't nobody's slave.

(edited for typos)

@Androconium
You have not a clue do you.
Well, let this "turd" enlighten you......
For one, your listing fees and sales commissions are a gold sink. The guild doesn't see one drake of the listing fee and only receives 3.5% of sales tax's. A good trader in Mournhold or Rawl' can cost 5-10 Million gold a WEEK! So unless you are selling 30 million gold a week, your "Sales Tax's don't mean squat.
You criticized someone cause they couldn't remember a NPC's name? My guild has the same trader in Orsinium for almost a year straight, and I can't tell you the name of the NPC. That is the dumbest reason I have ever heard for not joining a guild. You have obviously never ran a guild or been a GM. You have no idea the work it takes, and that includes anyone who thinks GM's are crooks and just filling their own coffers with gold. That is total BS.
(Note: I myself have donated over 5 mill gold of MY gold to my guild in 6 months to help pay for our trader).
And to close, most guilds I know and GM's I know have turned away from the "Mandatory" fee system and rely on raffles, donations and such, which are voluntary, to support the guild.
Just one opinion from one "Turd". Join a guild or not, don't judge what you don't know, and don't judge GM's till YOU have run a large guild, put in HOURS of time, stress, headaches, and millions in in game gold and even real world cash to maintain.
Huzzah!

Flaminir

It really is quite sad how many people just don't know how much time and effort and gold most GM's put in to their guilds... and judging from some of the replies in here how little some people appreciate it.

I don't know of any GM's getting rich off this system... as other GM's have said here, it's usually us that are the ones putting our gold in to subsidise the bids.... putting in hours and hours of our playtime each week to earn that gold just so that their guildies can have a good trader and a good experience with the guild.

Earning the gold...
Recruitment...
Organising the events...
Helping guildies...
Trader bids...

For those of us with full time jobs the guild stuff takes up almost all the playtime.

So yes, I'm always going to lock the guild bank so people can't see the values... because I don't want all my hard work and effort to be undone by a single spy from another guild sniping us at the last minute because they know what we bid.

Androconium

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

@Androconium
You have not a clue do you.

Apparently not.

For one, your listing fees and sales commissions are a gold sink. The guild doesn't see one drake of the listing fee and only receives 3.5% of sales tax's.

Where does the money go then?

A good trader in Mournhold or Rawl' can cost 5-10 Million gold a WEEK! So unless you are selling 30 million gold a week, your "Sales Tax's don't mean squat.

was that 30 Million? Or 30 Million/500 players?; because that equates to 60 000 per week.
I can sell 100 000 per day, without looking at YouTube first.

Why does it cost 10 Million? Where does the other 20M go?

You criticized someone cause they couldn't remember a NPC's name? My guild has the same trader in Orsinium for almost a year straight, and I can't tell you the name of the NPC.

Thanks for showing an interest.

That is the dumbest reason I have ever heard for not joining a guild. You have obviously never ran a guild or been a GM. You have no idea the work it takes, and that includes anyone who thinks GM's are crooks and just filling their own coffers with gold. That is total BS.

No, I wouldn't want the stress.
I also didn't want a 50 000 minimum 'target'. NOT YOUR SLAVE.<<< what part of this is not clear?

(Note: I myself have donated over 5 mill gold of MY gold to my guild in 6 months to help pay for our trader).
And to close, most guilds I know and GM's I know have turned away from the "Mandatory" fee system and rely on raffles, donations and such, which are voluntary, to support the guild.

Well, there are several guild alliances of 3-5 guilds run by circles of guild members.
They still push high targets and KICK underperformers, regardless of having lotteries etc.

Just one opinion from one "Turd". Join a guild or not, don't judge what you don't know, and don't judge GM's till YOU have run a large guild, put in HOURS of time, stress, headaches, and millions in in game gold and even real world cash to maintain. Huzzah!

One new Guild boss starting out - no fees, no rules. But somehow had a trader in Eldenroot. I thought it odd, but gave him the benefit of the doubt, as I thought, like you, that he was putting in his own money to get started. On that basis, I also donated.

So after two weeks, he applies rules and sales targets and then tells me that he has other guilds.
I sent him an email with one word to describe him. It wasn't turd....

I put in hours running all over various places to farm stuff to sell. I compete with "POWER SELLERS" who have characters rigged up at supersonic speeds, with harvesting addons etc. Some days it ain't no fun there either.

So if neither of us are having any fun, why are we still here?

Twenty0zTsunami

AAA Had Enough wrote: »

Recently guilds have decided that members are not entitled to see how much gold the guild has, how much they bid on a trader or any say in what they spend members money on. Guilds are handing gold to select members to buy houses etc. All members should be allowed to know what the guild is doing with the gold they get from members and sales. Like any organisation people join said organisation has an obligation to it's members to be open about everything the guild is doing especially when it comes to money. (any feedback would be appreciated)

yep I dont join any shady guilds that come off ass pyramid schemes. I don't care if your dues are 2k a week, I'm not paying you to join your guild.

Slick_007 wrote: »

someone has issues!

is this is how paranoid you are, how about you start a successful trade guild and bid on traders. that way, you are the guild leader and you can decide that your own guild cant see the gold. and then they can accuse you of stealing from them. and then you can refer them back to this suggestion.

found the guild leader that's fleecing his members.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Androconium wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

@Androconium
You have not a clue do you.

Apparently not.

For one, your listing fees and sales commissions are a gold sink. The guild doesn't see one drake of the listing fee and only receives 3.5% of sales tax's.

Where does the money go then?

A good trader in Mournhold or Rawl' can cost 5-10 Million gold a WEEK! So unless you are selling 30 million gold a week, your "Sales Tax's don't mean squat.

was that 30 Million? Or 30 Million/500 players?; because that equates to 60 000 per week.
I can sell 100 000 per day, without looking at YouTube first.

Why does it cost 10 Million? Where does the other 20M go?

You criticized someone cause they couldn't remember a NPC's name? My guild has the same trader in Orsinium for almost a year straight, and I can't tell you the name of the NPC.

Thanks for showing an interest.

That is the dumbest reason I have ever heard for not joining a guild. You have obviously never ran a guild or been a GM. You have no idea the work it takes, and that includes anyone who thinks GM's are crooks and just filling their own coffers with gold. That is total BS.

No, I wouldn't want the stress.
I also didn't want a 50 000 minimum 'target'. NOT YOUR SLAVE.<<< what part of this is not clear?

(Note: I myself have donated over 5 mill gold of MY gold to my guild in 6 months to help pay for our trader).
And to close, most guilds I know and GM's I know have turned away from the "Mandatory" fee system and rely on raffles, donations and such, which are voluntary, to support the guild.

Well, there are several guild alliances of 3-5 guilds run by circles of guild members.
They still push high targets and KICK underperformers, regardless of having lotteries etc.

Just one opinion from one "Turd". Join a guild or not, don't judge what you don't know, and don't judge GM's till YOU have run a large guild, put in HOURS of time, stress, headaches, and millions in in game gold and even real world cash to maintain. Huzzah!

One new Guild boss starting out - no fees, no rules. But somehow had a trader in Eldenroot. I thought it odd, but gave him the benefit of the doubt, as I thought, like you, that he was putting in his own money to get started. On that basis, I also donated.

So after two weeks, he applies rules and sales targets and then tells me that he has other guilds.
I sent him an email with one word to describe him. It wasn't turd....

I put in hours running all over various places to farm stuff to sell. I compete with "POWER SELLERS" who have characters rigged up at supersonic speeds, with harvesting addons etc. Some days it ain't no fun there either.

So if neither of us are having any fun, why are we still here?

Yup, you apparently still don't...
1.Guilds get 3.5% of sales, the rest is a "Gold Sink". Just like your listing fees. It disappears.
2. Any trader in the 3 main trade hubs cost 5-10 million gold a week to hire.
My point is that you would have to sell over 35 million in sales to support a trader. (=3.5%).
3. Not all guilds have the "50,000" minimum you speak of. If these are the only guilds you have found you aren't looking very hard for a good guild.
4. Running a guild IS a second job, and one I love. All GM's want their guilds to thrive and grow!
Yes, there are a few bad apples, just like in religion, politics, work and every other corner of society.
But don't group all because of a few...
And yes, I do have fun playing and love ESO!!!
Huzzah!!!

DoctorESO

Then don't join a trading guild. Problem solved.