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Incoherent Balance and Unbridled Bias - Cloak is Fine, Streak is Nerfed
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NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »King_Thelon wrote: »
@NyassaVStreak and Cloak are EXTREMELY different. You can escape pretty much 100% of the time after streaking 4 times. There is no guarantee that you'll escape if you spam cloak 8 times
Streaking 4 times not only bleeds every MagSorc in the game dry, but every player with access to a snare, root and / or gap closer says lol. Please friend go play MagSorc solo for 100 hours and try for yourself.
Streak is fine the way it is. It was absolutely overpowered without the increasing cost.
Hope you don't mind that I cut your text a bit short. But streak is not fine. Every single gap closer counters it. It would be absolutely fine if it gave a short gap closer immunity. So we still have to streak twice but at least we could get away.
And how is that better with Cloak? And what do classes like Templar or DK that have neither Cloak nor Streak do? They can't get away.
Streak as it is now is still better than no Streak, isn't it?
DK and Templar are not supposed to be mobile to begin with
That doesn't make it better in any way. And why aren't they supposed to be mobile? Who said that? Why are MagBlades and MagSorcs supposed to be mobile?
Templars an DKs havy been called 'stand your ground' classes for a reason. (By Wrobel I think)Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info4 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭kyle.wilson wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »King_Thelon wrote: »
@SeraphayelSeraphayel wrote: »Oh man, Sorcs bragging about Nightblades. As a DK or Templar I'd wish to have the nerfed Streak because it is still better than everything my class has.
Sorcerers and Nightblades are the two classes that really should not complain about anything in that regard.
Friend please go play 100 hours solo on a MagSorc. You will quickly learn that EVERY STAMINA CLASS has better mobility. Forward momentum + sprint outshines MagSorc's class-defining "escape" mechanism by miles.
Do you really think Stamina characters use sprint to escape?
That's exactly what they do. Almost no mag build can keep up to a stam build, and if they try they just leave themselves open to being CC locked without stam.
When I'm CC'd on a mag sorc a stam build can easily jog to keep up with my attempt to streak.
Which is why if I'm trying to bail I usually streak through the target while drinking an invis pot.
I can maybe see hitting rapids and bailing from an incoming Zerg...But people actually Sprint away from a single mag Sorcerer?
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »King_Thelon wrote: »
@NyassaVStreak and Cloak are EXTREMELY different. You can escape pretty much 100% of the time after streaking 4 times. There is no guarantee that you'll escape if you spam cloak 8 times
Streaking 4 times not only bleeds every MagSorc in the game dry, but every player with access to a snare, root and / or gap closer says lol. Please friend go play MagSorc solo for 100 hours and try for yourself.
Streak is fine the way it is. It was absolutely overpowered without the increasing cost.
Hope you don't mind that I cut your text a bit short. But streak is not fine. Every single gap closer counters it. It would be absolutely fine if it gave a short gap closer immunity. So we still have to streak twice but at least we could get away.
And how is that better with Cloak? And what do classes like Templar or DK that have neither Cloak nor Streak do? They can't get away.
Streak as it is now is still better than no Streak, isn't it?
DK and Templar are not supposed to be mobile to begin with
That doesn't make it better in any way. And why aren't they supposed to be mobile? Who said that? Why are MagBlades and MagSorcs supposed to be mobile?
Templars an DKs havy been called 'stand your ground' classes for a reason. (By Wrobel I think)
Yeah and then ZOS forgot about that and started to let MagDK and MagPlar starve for a very long time. Starving until today, waiting for the Summerset PTS notes...PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
chaserstorm16909✭✭✭✭✭Streak can be performed at will any time. Cloak can be broken by detect pots, magelight, any aoe skill, flare, some dots (unintended) and piercing mark. There may even be some I'm forgetting. So the two skills can't be compared at all.4 -
magictucktuck✭✭✭✭✭chaserstorm16909 wrote: »Streak can be performed at will any time. Cloak can be broken by detect pots, magelight, any aoe skill, flare, some dots (unintended) and piercing mark. There may even be some I'm forgetting. So the two skills can't be compared at all.
I get pulled out of cloak every time defile tics from duroks also. so no cloak fighting them.
EDIT: might be fasalas, the one where you get the green gas bubble every second. ive never used one of those sets so im not exactly sure which oneEdited by magictucktuck on March 23, 2018 5:51PM0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭when i cloak it shoots me across entire groups and knocks them down and damages them AND stuns them , that's why i repeat it over and over to wipe out Entire groups of people in PvP
the entire time i was doing that i received zero damage because everyone was not able to move.3 -
King_Thelon✭✭✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »when i cloak it shoots me across entire groups and knocks them down and damages them AND stuns them , that's why i repeat it over and over to wipe out Entire groups of people in PvP
the entire time i was doing that i received zero damage because everyone was not able to move.
Obvious and embarrassing strawman is obvious and embarrassing.7 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭King_Thelon wrote: »dwemer_paleologist wrote: »when i cloak it shoots me across entire groups and knocks them down and damages them AND stuns them , that's why i repeat it over and over to wipe out Entire groups of people in PvP
the entire time i was doing that i received zero damage because everyone was not able to move.
Obvious and embarrassing strawman is obvious and embarrassing.
please stop spaming nerf nightblade threads0 -
King_Thelon✭✭✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »please stop spaming nerf nightblade threadsKing_Thelon wrote: »You don't need to nerf cloak; it's a fun and useful escape tool. But you do need to return that same fun and useful escape tool to the sorcerer's kit.
Even more embarrassing. Care to go for the trifecta, youngling?5 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭King_Thelon wrote: »dwemer_paleologist wrote: »please stop spaming nerf nightblade threadsKing_Thelon wrote: »You don't need to nerf cloak; it's a fun and useful escape tool. But you do need to return that same fun and useful escape tool to the sorcerer's kit.
Even more embarrassing. Care to go for the trifecta, youngling?
I sure hope they don’t nerf my Stam DKs escape skill.
Oh....right.2 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭King_Thelon wrote: »
Yes. I have 10 characters of varied race, class, and build.
1 Stamina DK
1 Mag Templar
4 Stam NB
1 Mag Sorc
1 Mag NB
1 Mag Warden
1 Stam Warden0 -
King_Thelon✭✭✭✭✭@Tan9oSuccka
Good stuff, now rank them in terms of mobility. If you haven't been using forward momentum + immovable speed pots + sprint on your stam builds, I'd suggest giving it a shot.1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭King_Thelon wrote: »@Tan9oSuccka
Good stuff, now rank them in terms of mobility. If you haven't been using forward momentum + immovable speed pots + sprint on your stam builds, I'd suggest giving it a shot.
1. NB (When cloak actually works)
2. Sorcerer
3. Warden
Templar and DK have nothing, except potions which everyone has access to.
I already use speed and lingering pots or immovable potions for Stam characters. FM/rally depending on the build.
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leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OP?
Are you going to create a new whininf 'NeRF Nb ThReAd' on every subforum?
Just stop crying and slow a counter ffs, go make some reveal pots.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...7 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ilithyania wrote: »cloak has had some nerfs too:
Compare cloak to literally every other defense in practice. It is by far the best scaling and best mitigating and best escaping tool. Only Mark/DPs are zergy OP counters.
It also has by far the most counters.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...6 -
King_Thelon✭✭✭✭✭@leepalmer95leepalmer95 wrote: »Are you going to create a new whininf 'NeRF Nb ThReAd' on every subforum?King_Thelon wrote: »
You don't need to nerf cloak; it's a fun and useful escape tool. But you do need to return that same fun and useful escape tool to the sorcerer's kit.
The easily triggered youngling ought to seek truth and knowledge, lest he is blinded by bias, the blob, or both.
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Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭King_Thelon wrote: »@leepalmer95leepalmer95 wrote: »Are you going to create a new whininf 'NeRF Nb ThReAd' on every subforum?King_Thelon wrote: »
You don't need to nerf cloak; it's a fun and useful escape tool. But you do need to return that same fun and useful escape tool to the sorcerer's kit.
The easily triggered youngling ought to seek truth and knowledge, lest he is blinded by bias, the blob, or both.
Streak was very OP in the beginning. It was very rare that a Sorcerer would stay and fight. They could streak greater than any gap closer would touch and it was dirt cheap to cast.
I think cloak and streak are in good spots right now. They don’t need to change anything.3 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭King_Thelon wrote: »@leepalmer95leepalmer95 wrote: »Are you going to create a new whininf 'NeRF Nb ThReAd' on every subforum?King_Thelon wrote: »
You don't need to nerf cloak; it's a fun and useful escape tool. But you do need to return that same fun and useful escape tool to the sorcerer's kit.
The easily triggered youngling ought to seek truth and knowledge, lest he is blinded by bias, the blob, or both.
Lmao! It is like no one has even read the OP... It is like you're talking to a wall @King_ThelonPC/EU DC2 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭You dont understand lol.
Nightblades have NO proper self heals or shields.
Nerf cloak and the class is pretty much finished.
Rebalance it fairly then. Counters become less zergy but more reliable for the users. Dots tick, miss trail fixed, crit fixed to work for anything, healing and damage in cloak. so then the dot ticks are less painful.
StamDK has no healing worth while either, (Inb4 GDB burst) mending+minor vit+DK passives is still less amps than cloak. You also have the power of stopping all ST attacks, and being invisible. Legitimately just that is better, both scaling and mitigation, than all other defenses. If other classes have to sacrifice things for survival, so should NB.
1. GDB burst always relevant.
2. StamDKs also receive healing from ultimate use, yet another source of burst.
3. Cloak doesn't stop AoEs, so perhaps stop trying to counter it with single-target attacks.
4. Because cloak doesn't stop AoE attacks, the invisibility benefit is severely constricted. One cleave/deep breath, take flight, caltrops, acid spray, etc. and your stamDK has solved the invisibility problem.
5. Shields, block, and heals all counter both single target and AoE attacks.
6. Cloak is not superior to percentage-based damage reduction defenses like major/minor protection and major/minor maim. Those mitigations are applied before shields and before block, thereby reducing the cost of block and increasing the relative duration of the shield in addition to their powerful, scaling damage reductions.
7. Slot Camo Hunter on your stamDK if you really, really need a hard counter to cloak.
8. Maybe make some nightblade friends who would be invested in your survival enough to slot Piercing Mark.
Cloak has far more counters--and far more accessible counters--than shields, block, and heals. Shields require counting and precision timing on offence, or oblivion damage provided by two sets or an enchant. Block requires either fear (accessible to only one class), or resource poisons in addition to massive constant damage on target. Heals require Major Defile AND HARD CC (to prevent the target from simply purging the defile at low cost) in addition to constant incoming damage. By contrast, cloak requires either magelight or camo hunter, both class-agnostic, any DoT on target, any AoE on target, detect pots, detect poisons on target, snares, or piercing mark (class specific). Everyone has a larger toolbox against cloak compared to the specific counters to other defenses.
PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I still think hey should remove, reduce, or reset the stacking cost on streak if you actually hit someone with the streak.
That way you can use it tactically in a fight to continually reposition and apply CC, but you can’t use it as a free “lol you can’t catch me I’m the gingerbread man!” type of escape mechanism.
It would go a long wait to fixing mobility issues and gap closer spam against stamina players, and make the skill usable in duels.
What say you, mighty and wise @King_ThelonEdited by Minalan on March 23, 2018 9:08PM3 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Ilithyania wrote: »cloak has had some nerfs too:
Compare cloak to literally every other defense in practice. It is by far the best scaling and best mitigating and best escaping tool. Only Mark/DPs are zergy OP counters.
It also has by far the most counters.
Here's the rub, they don't want to change up their build to deal with one class. Nope, not important enough to use one of the many counters, but important enough to ask for that one class to be nerfed. Not directed at op, just an observation when the many counters are brought up and the responses as to why they refuse to use any of them.
Again, they simply don't want to change up their loadout, but want an entire class gutted of their identity so they simply have an easier time killing one of the squishiest classes out there.
I don't care how many nb's you all claim to see, how many are good? Most like myself are terrible and only win every so often, and when I do I'm amazed at myself. It is one of the hardest classes to master and most I see are complete scrubs, like myself.Edited by Sevn on March 23, 2018 9:07PMThere is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway3 -
King_Thelon✭✭✭✭✭I still think hey should remove, reduce, or reset the stacking cost on streak if you actually hit someone with the streak.
That way you can use it tactically in a fight to continually reposition and apply CC, but you can’t use it as a free “lol you can’t catch me I’m the gingerbread man!” type of escape mechanism.
It would go a long wait to fixing mobility issues and gap closer spam against stamina players, and make the skill usable in duels.
What say you, mighty and wise @King_Thelon
I like consistent and logical approaches to balancing over the whack-a-mole every 3- 6 months we've been getting.Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Please make streak not work when immobilized. Just like gap closers and other movement skills don't work while immobilized. If that is your argument. I accept. But then remove ALL the other nerfs to streak over the years including:- Losing momentum at the end of a streak instead of having a more natural curve to the ground
- Range reduction
- Reducing the effect of the ball of lightning absorption effects.
- Global skill cooldown at the end of streak.
- The first staking cost nerf
- The second stacking cost nerf.
- Aoe damage nerf
- I'm sure im forgetting one.
Give all of that back. But make sorcerers dodge roll if they are immobilized. Done deal. Streak has been nibbled to death with nerf after nerf when the right thing to do from the start would have been to make immobilization be a counter to streak. That way sorcerers would have to use stam to dodge roll, before streaking if immobilized. But can streak as much as they want without penalty afterwards. Perfect. Done.0 -
Apherius✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cloak doesn't equal streak, it equals shields. So for everyone looking to nerf cloak I say do it! Just as long as shields gets the same treatment. Increase cost with each use, reduce shield uptime to 2.9 seconds, have shields break if anything sneezes their way, etc etc...
2,9 seconds xDkypranb14_ESO wrote: »There is a huge gap between how streak works and how cloak works.
Cloak is almost useless when you have high tier snares on you or are affected by any damage-after-time abilities.
Streak can be used when snared, immobilized, affected by any effect other than stuns really.
You can't use streak when you are stuns.
You can use streak when you are snared and immobilized ... but you can't choose the direction.0 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭kypranb14_ESO wrote: »There is a huge gap between how streak works and how cloak works.
Cloak is almost useless when you have high tier snares on you or are affected by any damage-after-time abilities.
Streak can be used when snared, immobilized, affected by any effect other than stuns really.
If you streak when rooted you go in the direction you were faced when rooted. It's so annoying. So I guess it technically works then? But not well."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Ilithyania wrote: »cloak has had some nerfs too:
Compare cloak to literally every other defense in practice. It is by far the best scaling and best mitigating and best escaping tool. Only Mark/DPs are zergy OP counters.
It also has by far the most counters.
No. You have 3 kinds. 1) AoE is a so so counter. Because you can cloak whilst in an AOE, and AoEs are either melee or targetted. NB mains make out that AoEs come like heatseeking missiles to rip them out of cloak. If you are a good player you shouldn't get hit with one. 2) Then you have the reveal AoEs, like magelight and flare. Both a little more potent than the normal AoE, but still suffer from high cost.
3) The actual hard counters are the detection counters, which should be changed. Mark, and detect pots. Detect pots are a zergling weapon due to *** duration/range. Both should allow only the player to see and attack the target without revealing them.
Then look at block, 1) Unblockable CCs, hard/soft, 2) on target abilities like DoTs, POTL, etc, and 3) unblockable AoEs, ones that are ground/air based like shalk/destro ult.
And then remember block is more costly, scales awfully, mitigates less, and makes you MORE susceptible to damage as it slows you, and no invis. Unlike cloak you have to spec quite heavily into block to get as good results, so you actually lose offense.
Think that's bad? Compare cloak to wings. Just imagine if you gave a classes only active defense the wings treatment. So you can only cloak 4 attacks, many still go through, status effects go through, etc.Edited by ak_pvp on March 23, 2018 11:13PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
eso_lags✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭King_Thelon wrote: »@ZOS_Wrobel
10 updates ago, you nerfed streak to the ground, making sorcerer the only class in the history of the game that is punished with a stacking cost to an ability:ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »Bolt Escape: This ability no longer reduces out-of-combat Magicka recovery after casting. We have also increased the cost for Bolt Escape by 50%, which stacks with each cast within four seconds.
Sorcerer's escaping or resetting fights at will is OP. Nightblade's escaping or resetting fights at will is fine.
You don't need to nerf cloak; it's a fun and useful escape tool. But you do need to return that same fun and useful escape tool to the sorcerer's kit.
gross0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »King_Thelon wrote: »
@NyassaVStreak and Cloak are EXTREMELY different. You can escape pretty much 100% of the time after streaking 4 times. There is no guarantee that you'll escape if you spam cloak 8 times
Streaking 4 times not only bleeds every MagSorc in the game dry, but every player with access to a snare, root and / or gap closer says lol. Please friend go play MagSorc solo for 100 hours and try for yourself.
Streak is fine the way it is. It was absolutely overpowered without the increasing cost.
Hope you don't mind that I cut your text a bit short. But streak is not fine. Every single gap closer counters it. It would be absolutely fine if it gave a short gap closer immunity. So we still have to streak twice but at least we could get away.
And how is that better with Cloak? And what do classes like Templar or DK that have neither Cloak nor Streak do? They can't get away.
Streak as it is now is still better than no Streak, isn't it?
DK and Templar are not supposed to be mobile to begin with
That doesn't make it better in any way. And why aren't they supposed to be mobile? Who said that? Why are MagBlades and MagSorcs supposed to be mobile?
Templars an DKs havy been called 'stand your ground' classes for a reason. (By Wrobel I think)
The reason was dubious when he made it and outdated now as the game's mechanics and content now compels all classes to move in everything released after Imperial city.
Edited by Joy_Division on March 23, 2018 11:27PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.3
