Feedback on Scalecaller and Fang Lair

Halke · March 2018

Hey all! While the title gives it away a bit that a rant is incoming, I want to preface things by saying I love this game. I have an ungodly number of hours in ESO, and honestly, I have no plans to stop anytime soon. There are however some things that I think could go a long way to helping with the new dungeons. If you only read this, just know that I do not want the game easier, what I want is a challenge that encourages mediocre players to get better and urges the best to refine and perfect. So, without further ado, have some feedback and ideas for how to help to fix.

Fang Lair:
Vivivivivivifiers – I love them. Good job. Nice mechanic and novel way to force us to prioritize.
The Menagerie Boss – The dogs. They seem to be a little inconsistent with their attempts to murder your face in a blaze of gory glory. I think it is because the only blow up on their ‘target’ so you can get a false sense of hope when the wrong dog touches you. Maybe some sort of targeting indicator when a doggo thinks you have the treats and aren’t sharing?
Final Boss (HM) – The ghosts for the burn phase. Please. If it is going to be a one-shot there should not be any guess work. Put an enemy ground AoE indicator on them. Simple fix, but a huge one.

Scalecaller Peak:
Plague Rats – Such a good idea. Honestly? Make the effect they leave hurt more at least in vet. Maybe stacking damage so the longer you stand in it the deader you are? Anything really, except a one-shot. Gives the healer something to do and makes a really neat mechanic not be something we just ignore (because we all ignore it right now).
Lemonades – I hate these mobs. Good job. Leave them as they are. Still hate them.
Final Boss (HM) – Where to start…. List within a list time!

The poison pie slices are nice. Roll dodge gets you killed in them though because it moves you when the animation ends. The amount of deaths I have video of where on my screen I am not in the pie slice is a little maddening. And not even all of those were due to roll dodging. I think it is just a latency issue, but every run we have people dying in there to a one-shot that on their screen they are not in. Maybe make the borders more forgiving?
The stupid effing shield mechanic. On normal you stand in it. On HM for some reason it is now a synergy. A synergy mind you that appears to act like synergies used to, so activating it is a pain because of other animations. Oh, and sometimes the person who is stoned will be there in the shield and the game has you un-stone rather than shield. Just make it so the synergy for the shield is instant and overrides animations and then make it so that if you are in range for that synergy it will show above all others.
Zaan’s timings are…whew. The game likes to Zaan someone and then during the animation for them dropping out of it there will be a poison pie slice and now you have a dead teammate. Please just make sure that everyone has full control of their character before one-shotting them. (Obviously this doesn’t apply to if we stand in stupid and use our geyser/ice/stone when we aren’t supposed to, but at least those at least make you immune.)
The amount of one-shots vs standard damage. You are aware that groups are running 3 DPS and a tank for this because a healer is not useful. That is not okay. Please tell me (I am a healer main) that this wasn’t the intent. Maybe make some stuff leave you with a small fraction so it can be saved? Anything. Please

.

Both Dungeons:
The HM mechanics are nothing like the standard vet mechanics. Most of the ‘HM’ changes fully depend on one-shots and RNGeesus being satisfied with you. I love to teach people. I hate that the change in here from normal vet to HM isn’t something I can prepare people for at all. We just tell people flat out that the difference is laughable. I understand wanting to make people must be aware of positioning and the like, but this many one-shots is just….it is bad. Any time you have designed something where one of the holy trinity is not needed and is honestly a hindrance is a bad design in an MMO. There is a difference between us /choosing/ to run 3 DPS because we want a speed run and can sustain and the game suggesting we do it because the healer would be useless.

Obviously this list is likely not complete, but I think it is a start and I think the changes I want will help to keep the difficulty high but induce less gamer rage. Thanks for the time reading this.

- Tal'Raja (@Halke)

Sigtric · March 2018

All the one shots and RNG in the zaan fight is just a lazy way of making an encounter.

Agree 100% on all your points.

jaws343 · March 2018

The one shots are absolutely annoying and really, the only spots that require a healer in Scalecaller are the first boss and the gargoyle boss.

Also, echoing the difficulty comments, both dungeons are an absolute cakewalk on normal, allowing you to ignore most of the mechanics if your dps are doing at least 15K each. It is a large jump in difficulty from normal to vet and an even larger jump to hard mode, more so than any other dungeon out there. Not sure if it is because normal is just super easy or if the vet mode is that much harder.

Marabornwingrion · March 2018

I'm 100% agree with you that ghosts in vFL HM needs AoE indicator.

I have quite big problems with seeing some things in game, for example bombers in vHoF 4th boss because they have similar color to the ground. In vFL it's the same issue, I don't see where exactly this one-shot area around ghosts is because ghosts have similar color to the ground...

Please ZOS, make it happen... Put simple AoE ground indicator below ghosts so I can set up my own color in settings and see better if I stand in correct place... And no, I'm not asking for nerfs.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_MattFiror
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_Finn

Halke · March 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

The one shots are absolutely annoying and really, the only spots that require a healer in Scalecaller are the first boss and the gargoyle boss.

And that is my issue in a nutshell. I am running on my healer, as a healer, as a matter of honor. It is an exercise in eff this shiii.

Astrid_V wrote: »

Please ZOS, make it happen... Put simple AoE ground indicator below ghosts so I can set up my own color in settings and see better if I stand in correct place... And no, I'm not asking for nerfs.

Agreed. I don't think allowing us to /see/ the effect is a nerf at all. 10/10, would bump this comment again.

Furcula · March 2018

Increased visibility would definitely be really nice to have especially for the ghosts. Also really need less one shot mechanics for Fang Lair. Hit ghosts in last boss? Dead. Miss a dodge roll on the bone colossus? Dead. Don't stand on the golden pad? Dead. Get slowed by shalks without snaring them? Dead. Which..is really 90% of the mechanics in Fang Lair lol.

Although it is good to have some one shot mechanics, having 90% of them being one shot is really sucky.

NyassaV · March 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno Halke was in the videos that Nyassa compiled

code65536 · March 2018

I agree. AoE telegraphs on the ghost walls in Fang Lair. And in Scalecaller, I've said this before and I'll say it again: you must increase the poison cone timing from 2s to 3s so we get less of this "I'm outside on my screen, but I'm dead to the server" nonsense and makes poison-after-Zaan-beam less of a "haha, screw you".

I've gotten the Mountain God achievement (Scalecaller HM with no deaths), and despite that, the group that I did it with can still easily wipe on Scalecaller HM. Sometimes we'd 1-shot it. Sometimes we'd wipe a number of times. The fact that a group like this can still easily wipe on HM speaks volumes of how unforgiving that fight is--to the point that it feels like luck is as important as skill, and that's just not right.

Halke · March 2018

code65536 wrote: »

The fact that a group like this can still easily wipe on HM speaks volumes of how unforgiving that fight is--to the point that it feels like luck is as important as skill, and that's just not right.

Agreed a million. I am not running with guys quite as good as you as you all are, but they are still more than competent and do their role bloody well. We understand the mechanics, just with this many one-shots that doesn't matter as much as how upset RNGeesus is with you that day.

Also, hella gratz on that achieve!

Sjizzle · March 2018

Astrid_V wrote: »

I'm 100% agree with you that ghosts in vFL HM needs AoE indicator.

I have quite big problems with seeing some things in game, for example bombers in vHoF 4th boss because they have similar color to the ground.

U can change the color in game menu settings !!!!!!!

code65536 wrote: »

I agree. AoE telegraphs on the ghost walls in Fang Lair. And in Scalecaller, I've said this before and I'll say it again: you must increase the poison cone timing from 2s to 3s so we get less of this "I'm outside on my screen, but I'm dead to the server" nonsense and makes poison-after-Zaan-beam less of a "haha, screw you".

I've gotten the Mountain God achievement (Scalecaller HM with no deaths), and despite that, the group that I did it with can still easily wipe on Scalecaller HM. Sometimes we'd 1-shot it. Sometimes we'd wipe a number of times. The fact that a group like this can still easily wipe on HM speaks volumes of how unforgiving that fight is--to the point that it feels like luck is as important as skill, and that's just not right.

in SP last boss if u face to the statue always u can easly avoid the poison ....move when the statue turn in yellow ..... u have more then 3 sec reaction time !!!

Halke · March 2018

Sjizzle wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

I'm 100% agree with you that ghosts in vFL HM needs AoE indicator.

I have quite big problems with seeing some things in game, for example bombers in vHoF 4th boss because they have similar color to the ground.

U can change the color in game menu settings !!!!!!!

code65536 wrote: »

I agree. AoE telegraphs on the ghost walls in Fang Lair. And in Scalecaller, I've said this before and I'll say it again: you must increase the poison cone timing from 2s to 3s so we get less of this "I'm outside on my screen, but I'm dead to the server" nonsense and makes poison-after-Zaan-beam less of a "haha, screw you".

I've gotten the Mountain God achievement (Scalecaller HM with no deaths), and despite that, the group that I did it with can still easily wipe on Scalecaller HM. Sometimes we'd 1-shot it. Sometimes we'd wipe a number of times. The fact that a group like this can still easily wipe on HM speaks volumes of how unforgiving that fight is--to the point that it feels like luck is as important as skill, and that's just not right.

in SP last boss if u face to the statue always u can easly avoid the poison ....move when the statue turn in yellow ..... u have more then 3 sec reaction time !!!

So, as to your first comment: Please read the entirety of Astrid's post. She knows you can do that. That is why she is asking for the indicator. She /wants/ to change the color. As do all of us, tbh.

As for the poison, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I always face the dragons to give audibles to my team, but sometimes that just isn't enough. We aren't saying to do away with it. We aren't saying it is impossible. What we /are/ saying is that with how it is right now there are far too many occurrences of a player being out of the cone on their screen and still dying. If this has never happened to you, congratulations. But I think you should be able to infer from the other posters that it is a common issue. Also, not sure it is three seconds. If we run it tomorrow I will time it from lighting up to death breath.

code65536 · March 2018

Sjizzle wrote: »

U can change the color in game menu settings !!!!!!!

Um, the ghost wall does not have a colored telegraph. And with all of the other effects going on, they can be a little hard to see at times.

Sjizzle wrote: »

in SP last boss if u face to the statue always u can easly avoid the poison ....move when the statue turn in yellow ..... u have more then 3 sec reaction time !!!

And that's exactly what I do.

But if you're in the middle of the cone when the telegraph starts, you're dead. You can move so that your character is well outside of the cone, but you'll still die because in ESO, movement happens first client-side and is then sent and processed by the server, so you'll see on your screen that you're out, but the server is always behind your local game client. There are countless videos of people dying when they are clearly outside of the cone on their screen. Due to this sort of latency, you don't actually get the full 2s to react to and move a long distance out of the poison.

So the only way we can reliably survive the poison is to always stay near the boundary between two poison cones so that the distance that you need to move is as small as possible, to accommodate how short of a time window you actually have. And this is what we do. Staying on that boundary is easy in non-HM, but in HM, the roaming mechanics will deny space and will sometimes force you away from that boundary line, and if a poison blast happens at that time, you're dead.

Yes, always have an eye on the statues. Yes, always stay near the boundary. All that sounds great in theory, but in practice, that's sometimes just not possible.

Increasing the time of the poison blast to 3s from the current 2s will give people more time to react and move. It will give people who are in the middle of the cone a fighting chance to actually get out in time. It will no longer confine the fight to those narrow strips of boundary that people are sometimes chased off of by the random movement of space-denying mechanics.

Sjizzle · March 2018

code65536 wrote: »

And that's exactly what I do.

But if you're in the middle of the cone when the telegraph starts, you're dead. You can move so that your character is well outside of the cone, but you'll still die because in ESO, movement happens first client-side and is then sent and processed by the server, so you'll see on your screen that you're out, but the server is always behind your local game client. There are countless videos of people dying when they are clearly outside of the cone on their screen. Due to this sort of latency, you don't actually get the full 2s to react to and move a long distance out of the poison.

So the only way we can reliably survive the poison is to always stay near the boundary between two poison cones so that the distance that you need to move is as small as possible, to accommodate how short of a time window you actually have. And this is what we do. Staying on that boundary is easy in non-HM, but in HM, the roaming mechanics will deny space and will sometimes force you away from that boundary line, and if a poison blast happens at that time, you're dead.

Yes, always have an eye on the statues. Yes, always stay near the boundary. All that sounds great in theory, but in practice, that's sometimes just not possible.

Increasing the time of the poison blast to 3s from the current 2s will give people more time to react and move. It will give people who are in the middle of the cone a fighting chance to actually get out in time. It will no longer confine the fight to those narrow strips of boundary that people are sometimes chased off of by the random movement of space-denying mechanics.

if u move on red u are dead ! if u move when the statue is yellow u can not die !!!!!!
tbh i don't get how some players can do this dungeon and they don't complain about the mechanics some players can not do it and they complain NO OFFENCE HERE
sorry for the crap quality image it's from deltias video guide from youtube

Halke · March 2018

Sjizzle wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Sjizzle wrote: »

U can change the color in game menu settings !!!!!!!

Um, the ghost wall does not have a colored telegraph. And with all of the other effects going on, they can be a little hard to see at times.

Sjizzle wrote: »

in SP last boss if u face to the statue always u can easly avoid the poison ....move when the statue turn in yellow ..... u have more then 3 sec reaction time !!!

And that's exactly what I do.

But if you're in the middle of the cone when the telegraph starts, you're dead. You can move so that your character is well outside of the cone, but you'll still die because in ESO, movement happens first client-side and is then sent and processed by the server, so you'll see on your screen that you're out, but the server is always behind your local game client. There are countless videos of people dying when they are clearly outside of the cone on their screen. Due to this sort of latency, you don't actually get the full 2s to react to and move a long distance out of the poison.

So the only way we can reliably survive the poison is to always stay near the boundary between two poison cones so that the distance that you need to move is as small as possible, to accommodate how short of a time window you actually have. And this is what we do. Staying on that boundary is easy in non-HM, but in HM, the roaming mechanics will deny space and will sometimes force you away from that boundary line, and if a poison blast happens at that time, you're dead.

Yes, always have an eye on the statues. Yes, always stay near the boundary. All that sounds great in theory, but in practice, that's sometimes just not possible.

Increasing the time of the poison blast to 3s from the current 2s will give people more time to react and move. It will give people who are in the middle of the cone a fighting chance to actually get out in time. It will no longer confine the fight to those narrow strips of boundary that people are sometimes chased off of by the random movement of space-denying mechanics.

if u move on red u are dead ! if u move when the statue is yellow u can not die !!!!!!
tbh i don't get how some players can do this dungeon and they don't complain about the mechanics some players can not do it and they complain NO OFFENCE HERE
sorry for the crap quality image it's from deltias video guide from youtube

....You quoted his own post where he linked to his Mountain God and you think he can't do it? I'mma let Code handle it from here.

That said, while I am no Mountain God, I have my skin too. I /can/ do it and I still choose to complain because I love this game and want it to be better. Thank you for the image explaining the strat that we have all been talking about this whole time already. Glad to see you know what we mean.

code65536 · March 2018

Sjizzle wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

And that's exactly what I do.

But if you're in the middle of the cone when the telegraph starts, you're dead. You can move so that your character is well outside of the cone, but you'll still die because in ESO, movement happens first client-side and is then sent and processed by the server, so you'll see on your screen that you're out, but the server is always behind your local game client. There are countless videos of people dying when they are clearly outside of the cone on their screen. Due to this sort of latency, you don't actually get the full 2s to react to and move a long distance out of the poison.

So the only way we can reliably survive the poison is to always stay near the boundary between two poison cones so that the distance that you need to move is as small as possible, to accommodate how short of a time window you actually have. And this is what we do. Staying on that boundary is easy in non-HM, but in HM, the roaming mechanics will deny space and will sometimes force you away from that boundary line, and if a poison blast happens at that time, you're dead.

Yes, always have an eye on the statues. Yes, always stay near the boundary. All that sounds great in theory, but in practice, that's sometimes just not possible.

Increasing the time of the poison blast to 3s from the current 2s will give people more time to react and move. It will give people who are in the middle of the cone a fighting chance to actually get out in time. It will no longer confine the fight to those narrow strips of boundary that people are sometimes chased off of by the random movement of space-denying mechanics.

if u move on red u are dead ! if u move when the statue is yellow u can not die !!!!!!
tbh i don't get how some players can do this dungeon and they don't complain about the mechanics some players can not do it and they complain NO OFFENCE HERE
sorry for the crap quality image it's from deltias video guide from youtube

The red cone telegraph grows out of the statue the instant the statue glows green. From the moment the mechanic starts to when the damage hits, there's only 2s--2 seconds for the server to let your game know that the mechanic is starting, for the game to render the telegraph, for you to see it and mentally process it, for you to move, for your game to send that movement to the server, and for that movement to be fully registered and processed by the server. And judging from the many times that I have died while visually out of the cone--and the number of times I've seen other people die in the same way in streams and videos--that latency between movement on your screen and movement on the server is not insubstantial. 2 seconds for all of that. Which is enough, if the movement that you need to make is small.

Again, if you are near the boundary between two poison zones, you're fine. You can move out of it. If you're in the middle of the cone, good luck, because you're most likely not getting out of there alive.

And while people should remain on the boundary, the mechanics of the fight will sometimes deny space and force people away. Most of the time, I'm fine, I can move out in time. But there will be times when I can't, because I got pushed away from the boundary by that roaming laser beam and was then immobilized by the Zaan beam, and that mechanic ended, the poison comes out, and GG. Hmm, how do you suggest people survive that?

Vaoh · March 2018

Vet Scalecaller/Fang Lair HM is a lot like vMA..... very tough at first, but way easier after you’ve spent the time learning mechanics.

I wiped for 90min before my first Scalecaller HM complete. Now my group can usually beat it on the first attempt and the same goes for Fang Lair.

It’s all mechanics based and you get more used to them overtime.

Btw I 100% agree about the ghosts in Fang Lair HM needing a ground AoE. Def needs to happen imo.

Sjizzle · March 2018

code65536 wrote: »

The red cone telegraph grows out of the statue the instant the statue glows green. From the moment the mechanic starts to when the damage hits, there's only 2s--2 seconds for the server to let your game know that the mechanic is starting, for the game to render the telegraph, for you to see it and mentally process it, for you to move, for your game to send that movement to the server, and for that movement to be fully registered and processed by the server. And judging from the many times that I have died while visually out of the cone--and the number of times I've seen other people die in the same way in streams and videos--that latency between movement on your screen and movement on the server is not insubstantial. 2 seconds for all of that. Which is enough, if the movement that you need to make is small.

Again, if you are near the boundary between two poison zones, you're fine. You can move out of it. If you're in the middle of the cone, good luck, because you're most likely not getting out of there alive.

And while people should remain on the boundary, the mechanics of the fight will sometimes deny space and force people away. Most of the time, I'm fine, I can move out in time. But there will be times when I can't, because I got pushed away from the boundary by that roaming laser beam and was then immobilized by the Zaan beam, and that mechanic ended, the poison comes out, and GG. Hmm, how do you suggest people survive that?

there will be always latency issue... u can have the server near u and u will have latency issue...the game mechanics it's fine u have plenty of time.... what's kill u, me, and many other players is the RNG ....u never know where will be the next cone...if only 1 player die it's not a huge drama u can recover if 2 or 3 dies then RIP.

Latency issue can be from your side or ZoS side but we from Europe will have always more then 50-60ms ping bcos ZoS it's too lazy to locate the EU servers in EU like other MMO does....and i think that will never have EU servers Located EU for better latency and game XP...we need to deal and live with it... enjoy the game after some practice u will see that it's not that hard...
i stood at the last boss 3h on My first HM kill we had the same issue as u died out for the red cone but after some practice we 1 shot almost each time now

Asardes · March 2018

Last night I tried vFL HM again. Died to the exact same mechanic: ghost coming in from behind the boss while he was channeling the skulls. Those look similar and have the exact color as the ghosts so it masks them pretty well. I simply cannot see them. Maybe I was tired though, but I haven't had such a problem in other dungeons. IMO this is bad design. Make the skulls more greenish so you don't confuse them with the one-shot ghosts.

Also a few days ago I got killed in vSP repeatedly by the poison cone because I had just been picked up by boss in the flame channel, and dropped just at that moment so I couldn't move out fast enough even if I was right at the edge. That's really annoying. At least leave a longer period between the flame channel and the poison one.

Asardes · March 2018

Sjizzle wrote: »

Latency issue can be from your side or ZoS side but we from Europe will have always more then 50-60ms ping bcos ZoS it's too lazy to locate the EU servers in EU like other MMO does....and i think that will never have EU servers Located EU for better latency and game XP...we need to deal and live with it... enjoy the game after some practice u will see that it's not that hard...
i stood at the last boss 3h on My first HM kill we had the same issue as u died out for the red cone but after some practice we 1 shot almost each time now

EU servers are located in the EU, somewhere in Germany. The problem though is not due to geographical or network limitations, but mainly due to client side processing bottlenecks. Even on very high end platforms, with perfect, high capacity Internet connection, the game does still glitch in a number of ways: it stutters, it displays certain animations and telegraphs with considerable delay or not at all. IMO if ZoS doesn't really fix its coding - assuming that's possible, given the age of the game engine - at least they should design content by acknowledging its limitations, by putting longer delays, clearer telegraphs, easier to see mechanics etc.

And I'm not making up things. For example even now, 2 years after launch, vMoL is very risky sometimes unless you use Raid Notifier addon, that taps the API directly, since the glowing circle that tells you you'll get a color change doesn't sometimes display. But addons are a crutch made by players, and it's unavailable on consoles. Making content that needs them to be reliably played is deeply unfair towards the console gamers since they can't get them. And AFAIK console performance is even worse than PC.

Halke · March 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Vet Scalecaller/Fang Lair HM is a lot like vMA..... very tough at first, but way easier after you’ve spent the time learning mechanics.

I wiped for 90min before my first Scalecaller HM complete. Now my group can usually beat it on the first attempt and the same goes for Fang Lair.

It’s all mechanics based and you get more used to them overtime.

Btw I 100% agree about the ghosts in Fang Lair HM needing a ground AoE. Def needs to happen imo.

I agree that it gets easier, but it still feels far too reliant on RNG rather than skill.

IMO, giving an extra second on the poison cone and putting the AoE on the ghosts won't make those fights any easier for the people who struggle with them. What that will do is make it so that those of us who can do them, can do them more reliably.

Halke · March 2018

*bumps discreetly*

Halke · March 2018

Update: If you kill the boss in vSP in normal vet mode while you are supposed to be in her shield, the shield will vanish and the poison will still go off, wiping the group. #ItsAFeature #WorkingAsIntended

Rungar · March 2018

i give both of these dungeons a solid F. Seems like the only role necessary is lucky acrobat.

profundidob16_ESO · March 2018

well it seems 1 of your prayers has been heard....after yesterday's nerf we now have more time right after the beam before next poison comes.

But indeed that won't solve the lag problems that cause us to die while being 3 meters outside the cone...