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The Nightblade Nerfs are coming, better let the good ones negotiate the changes
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NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hand_Bacon wrote: »
I already mentioned how i got to these numbers.
Kill Counter stats
Death Recaps
Daily observation of primetime pvp varying from Solo to smallscale and leeching at keep fights.
Small sample and like I said, there is no way for us to verify that other than take your word which again, are based on just your experience.
Just from killcounter stats i get ~35% NB aswell this patch playing on EP and DC VIVEC EU. EP daytime DC evening/primetime.
NB is the only class that can escape me reliably so numbers might even be a little too low.
My numbers and assessment are similar as well
Could have something to do with the fact Nightblades are squishy?Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stamblade lost it's hard counter of mDK
Funny thing is that stamblade has always been a top tier class. It's been proven over and over again, players coming out of nowhere and suddenly becoming ESO gods (those who know they know *wink wink*).
It's the group mentality that made people realize their potential. Popular streamer here and there release videos saying stamblades are the strongest solo class, people start rerolling, their friends then reroll, everyone realizes the potential of the class and suddenly threads come up all over the forums.
Funny thing is that nightblade as a class has received minimal changes since like morrowind (even longer but morrowind is the point of reference) but it has never been as popular as it is now.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Popular doesn't = best or most overpowered.
Honda Odyssey is by far the most popular vehicle on the road near my work due to school proximity. Would you consider it the most powerful or best car? No. It serves a purpose. If a class is fun or suits a lot of play styles, that doesn't make it overpowered, it makes it popular. One may cause the other but also may not. There are more than 1 reason why something is popular.
Calling cloak the best defense in the game is also a bit biased. Of all the defenses, it's the easiest negated. Can you take a pot to stop heals, blocks, shields, teleports for 20s? Or spam abilities (magelight, aoe's, etc) to negate them with no cooldown? Attacking breaks cloak. Does attacking an enemy drop shields or force block to drop? I have characters that can spam shield or block as long or longer than a NB using cloak and do just as much dmg while not having to worry about being crit or being CC'd.
While Incap is nice, it can be blocked, can be dodged, can be absorbed by shields - aka mitigated/negated very easily.
Most good players don't die to NB burst - they use one of the many many counters and have enough survivability to reset the fight themself.
I think the problem is people find the class more fun now that an addon doesn't take away the element of surprise and play for others. And people that relied on it have to raise their skill level or think about survivability instead of an addon doing it for them.
It just seams of the 2 options - learn to counter a class, ask for devs to make the game easier for you - most tend to ask for the later as it requires less effort.
Personally? I think that after some time I the game became more or less designed around the addon.
High burst and high damage out of stealth was balanced against the game API basically telling everyone when the attack was coming.
Now that this is gone, the hordes of angry people are looking at the MANY MANY advantages of stealth and first strike, and are saying that it’s too much coupled with the highest burst damage in the game, and the best defensive mechanics in the game (dodge roll and cloak).
I expect damage “balancing” in the near future for nightblades. It happened to Sorc. It happened to Templar (in the worst way).
And please. Everyone. Stop with the detect pot nonsense. A counter you can use for a few seconds, every 45 seconds, is NOT a counter. You still can’t even hit a revealed nightblade because cloak still gives you a 100% miss chance so you can escape.0 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Samadhi
It’s really simple. In PvE cloak gives you an invincibility that is only limited by your magical pool and your Regeneration. NPCs stop attacking when you cloak. They aren’t able to detect you if you don’t want to. Take the DB and TG quests. On a NB you can simply permacloak, do the quest objective, and permacloak again without ever facing any NPC.
I don’t care for cloak in PvE actually. I wouldn’t advocate changes for PvE reasons. But the idea that a class can avoid everything by a simple button press at will is a bit absurd even against NPCs.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Out of his ass, I think. Utter nonsense. Nbs have two major things going against them that limit their appeal:
1) they are the hardest class to learn to play, especially in pvp
2) they are best in very specific roles and this can make them rather unappealing to play in pvp for many people who might want something more flexible or all-purpose
IME, a lot of players who go into cyro on a NB end up either sticking to pve or stitching to different class. I'm a relatively experienced NB player in pve and *** if I like playing them in pvp. What a pain. You spend most of your time just trying not to get killed before you can do what you're good at. And then it's all about getting the timing right or you end up looking like a joke by barely doing any damage.
I said this in another thread, but on my Templar I hardly see 95% of NBs in cyro as a real threat. DKs and other Templars are far more a threat, followed by Sorc and then Wardens.
Nightblades are a threat if you let them be, most people do so they come here to complain. (Side note change the incap stun plz. Make it an actual stun and not a knockdown)Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭The dueling spots on Xbox NA are a little different 50% of the players there are playing mag dk. Then I would say next up would be magblade and stamplar. Everything else is about even. I don't think the dueling spots are a good representation of the overall game balance though. Most of the players play builds that will only work for duels and won't be very effective in cyrodiil. You see stamplars without gap closers, magblades without Cloak and mag do without vamps. Most players who duel, build for duels and nothing else. Also if those classes I named they are the most prevalent in dueling spots but most will agree that none of them should be nerfedEdited by thankyourat on March 21, 2018 9:44PM1 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anything other than a Nerf to incap will also nerf magblade. I think most people would agree that it's stamina nightblade that everyone dislikes (I don't find them op just annoying). Any Nerf to Cloak has to be made with magblade in mind. If Cloak is nerfed double take will have to be buffed to give snare removal and immunity and shade will need to be able to be cast without a Target.1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »What’s the deal with the recent spike in NB hate/salt?
In this last patch, basically nightblades became immune to two class specific and one general counter.
* Warden cliff racers are dodgeable. These used to be a nightblade’s bane, now they won’t ever hit you if you’re any good. Never. Hit.
* DK powerlash got a cooldown, and is now dodgeable. A nightblade will almost never get hit by this, the single most damaging regular skill proc that a magDK has, thats also tied to their burst heal. And they absolutely suck against good stamblades with it being dodgeable. Can’t hit you. Can’t heal. **** you ZOS.
* Soul Assault took a huge nerf to the snare, which used to be the whole point in using it. Its easy to escape now without dying.
So now TWO classes are now free AP Piñatas for nightblades that weren’t before. You are GOING to get a lot of these threads, you won’t like it, but neither do they.
Yes, and all of those were good changes because they really were countering medium armor builds too hard. I still see mDKs & Wardens doing well in Cyrodiil, BGs & Duels.
Also, you still get the heal from Power Lash even if it misses btw.
That said, I do agree that dodge roll spam needs to be toned down.
I like how it actually accomplishes something in this patch, but I dislike that people can spam it nonstop without running out of stamina.
So maybe ZOS should increase the stacking cost modifier for dodge roll (or increase the duration for the debuff so that people can't use one cloak to just reset the counter & carry on spamming dodge roll until the next Incap).
Also, builds that struggle vs dodge roll tactics should get some undodgeable abilities (on par with Steel Tornado/Brawler which were recently changed to be undodgeable). For instance, bow builds should be able to bypass dodge roll with Acid Spray/Bombard.
Bottom line: Dodge is the strongest damage mitigation tool this patch. So many counters were removed for “consistency” that it’s ridiculous. It only follows that the cloaking/dodge roll class becomes the most powerful in Cyrodiil.
Rofl. Just because you don't have an instant win button with Soul Strike anymore (that skill is still brutal against roll builds tho) doesn't mean that roll dodge is overpowered - it's the only defense mechanic which has a freaking stacking cost, please explain me why nobody runs a roll build besides nightblades (which is the only class which can make them working with Cloak). You can spam shields and blockhealing far longer than rolldodging (and this even without using Harness Magicka which turns mag sustain into a joke). Make suggestions about magplar instead pretending that dodgeroll is the easymode cancer defense while shieldstacking and blocking is the incarnation of skill.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »What’s the deal with the recent spike in NB hate/salt?
In this last patch, basically nightblades became immune to two class specific and one general counter.
* Warden cliff racers are dodgeable. These used to be a nightblade’s bane, now they won’t ever hit you if you’re any good. Never. Hit.
* DK powerlash got a cooldown, and is now dodgeable. A nightblade will almost never get hit by this, the single most damaging regular skill proc that a magDK has, thats also tied to their burst heal. And they absolutely suck against good stamblades with it being dodgeable. Can’t hit you. Can’t heal. **** you ZOS.
* Soul Assault took a huge nerf to the snare, which used to be the whole point in using it. Its easy to escape now without dying.
So now TWO classes are now free AP Piñatas for nightblades that weren’t before. You are GOING to get a lot of these threads, you won’t like it, but neither do they.
Yes, and all of those were good changes because they really were countering medium armor builds too hard. I still see mDKs & Wardens doing well in Cyrodiil, BGs & Duels.
Also, you still get the heal from Power Lash even if it misses btw.
That said, I do agree that dodge roll spam needs to be toned down.
I like how it actually accomplishes something in this patch, but I dislike that people can spam it nonstop without running out of stamina.
So maybe ZOS should increase the stacking cost modifier for dodge roll (or increase the duration for the debuff so that people can't use one cloak to just reset the counter & carry on spamming dodge roll until the next Incap).
Also, builds that struggle vs dodge roll tactics should get some undodgeable abilities (on par with Steel Tornado/Brawler which were recently changed to be undodgeable). For instance, bow builds should be able to bypass dodge roll with Acid Spray/Bombard.
Bottom line: Dodge is the strongest damage mitigation tool this patch. So many counters were removed for “consistency” that it’s ridiculous. It only follows that the cloaking/dodge roll class becomes the most powerful in Cyrodiil.
This exactly!!!
I may be a little biased here, since I play magblade 99% of the time, but imo roll dodge is the single most overpowered defense mechanic this patch. Combine that with the ABSURD (!!!) 30% dodge chance that major evasion have and you'll be lucky to ever be able to catch a roller build (note how I didn't say rollerblade, even though they're the main culprits), let alone burst them down.
Also, the "mark me and it's gg" argument doesn't really add up. I shouldn't have to change up my build completely just so I can have a chance to beat one single spec. It's a flawed argument and it shouldn't exist to begin with.
FIRST OF ALL we need to get rid of major evasion. Combat in a fast paced game like ESO shouldn't depend on rng. It's absurd that I hit a player with the same ability 6 *** TIMES IN A ROW while he's standing still and I can't land a single one.
That's nonsense and you know that. First of all, Major Evasion is 15% and not 30%. And second, stam needs some fair defense as well, dodgeroll builds without Cloak aren't viable, otherwise non nb classes wouldn't all play tank builds. Magicka currently has better sustain, better pressure and better defense, only thing which makes stam looking stronger than it is is sword and board, cloak and heavy attacks.Edited by Ragnaroek93 on March 21, 2018 10:08PMI used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »NBs are Rogues. Rogues are always popular in every MMO. Theyre High DPS with quick TTK. The playstyle itself is very popular and should never be the basis for nerfs or ideas of nerfs.
Nightblades are popular because they can travel without getting squished and can evade zergs.
Although I play various classes, stam NB is what I play most of the time, due to the hours I keep. I despise the assassin-stealther-lowlife archetype. Have in every game I have ever played. But ZoS doesn't do out-of-the- shadows "good guy" archetype very well. They have purposefully made some classes have low mobility and within their combat system that will always mean second tier.
Sure, sometimes I can 1vx like crazy on a DK or Templar, but for every time that happens, there are 20 times I get runover by a zerg. While that makes most streamers joyful, I don't like to die. So I play stam NB, wait until the zerg passes, and then continue on my merry way..0 -
A majority of magic nightblades in Cyrodiil are not very good TBH. Stamblade is a problem in that it doesn't even need grim focus to succeed. That is part of why magic nightblade is more balanced than stamblade IMO. By requiring 5 light attacks to give off your big burst (That you can combo with other skills) you effectively increase counterplay and increase the TTK. But you don't increase the TTK to the point where it's not viable. I would like to see Surprise attack get a damage reduction but increase the damage of Assassin's Scourge. That way PvP nightblades can adapt to play in a more balanced way and PvE stamblades don't get much of a DPS nerf.
Stamblades in PvE main spammable is Surprise Attack, so it WILL effect them.
Since Stamblades are OP in PvP but fairly balanced in PvE, I suggest nerfing PvP-only Stamblade skills like Incapacitating Strike or Ambush. Incap's strength over Soul Harvest (the PvE morph) is the stun, so keep the stun but nerf its damage a little. Ambush is better than the more PvE oriented AoE magic-based Lotus Fan because it grants Empower, increasing the damage of the next hit by 20%... I say nerf it to give Empower to all abilities *except* the ability you just played (Ambush), so people can't just go SPAMBUSH all day.
With strength and intelligence comes hard work.
Which is why not a lot of people are strong nor intelligent.1 -
Thunderknuckles✭✭✭✭and how many of those nightblades were actually melee nightblades and not lethal arrow/cloak spammers?
If anything they should get a buff since they are only good at bursting single targets. There are tanks out there who burst medium armor. That should not even happen.
Bad players never appreciate or know how hard it is to play stamblade properly. They get bursted and think that's how a stamblade always works while in reality you end up dying 99% of the time. I know because am a stamblade. You can't burst everyone you see, if that was the case i would not even be here wasting my time and actually be having fun killing everyone according to all these stam nb haters.
If you got bursted here the only two reasons, you were not paying attention and i understand it happens to the best us and the other one is you just need to l2p if you get bursted during a fight.
Man, they aren't listening. All they know is the butthurt.0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »What’s the deal with the recent spike in NB hate/salt?
In this last patch, basically nightblades became immune to two class specific and one general counter.
* Warden cliff racers are dodgeable. These used to be a nightblade’s bane, now they won’t ever hit you if you’re any good. Never. Hit.
* DK powerlash got a cooldown, and is now dodgeable. A nightblade will almost never get hit by this, the single most damaging regular skill proc that a magDK has, thats also tied to their burst heal. And they absolutely suck against good stamblades with it being dodgeable. Can’t hit you. Can’t heal. **** you ZOS.
* Soul Assault took a huge nerf to the snare, which used to be the whole point in using it. Its easy to escape now without dying.
So now TWO classes are now free AP Piñatas for nightblades that weren’t before. You are GOING to get a lot of these threads, you won’t like it, but neither do they.
Yes, and all of those were good changes because they really were countering medium armor builds too hard. I still see mDKs & Wardens doing well in Cyrodiil, BGs & Duels.
Also, you still get the heal from Power Lash even if it misses btw.
That said, I do agree that dodge roll spam needs to be toned down.
I like how it actually accomplishes something in this patch, but I dislike that people can spam it nonstop without running out of stamina.
So maybe ZOS should increase the stacking cost modifier for dodge roll (or increase the duration for the debuff so that people can't use one cloak to just reset the counter & carry on spamming dodge roll until the next Incap).
Also, builds that struggle vs dodge roll tactics should get some undodgeable abilities (on par with Steel Tornado/Brawler which were recently changed to be undodgeable). For instance, bow builds should be able to bypass dodge roll with Acid Spray/Bombard.
Bottom line: Dodge is the strongest damage mitigation tool this patch. So many counters were removed for “consistency” that it’s ridiculous. It only follows that the cloaking/dodge roll class becomes the most powerful in Cyrodiil.
Rofl. Just because you don't have an instant win button with Soul Strike anymore (that skill is still brutal against roll builds tho) doesn't mean that roll dodge is overpowered - it's the only defense mechanic which has a freaking stacking cost, please explain me why nobody runs a roll build besides nightblades (which is the only class which can make them working with Cloak). You can spam shields and blockhealing far longer than rolldodging (and this even without using Harness Magicka which turns mag sustain into a joke). Make suggestions about magplar instead pretending that dodgeroll is the easymode cancer defense while shieldstacking and blocking is the incarnation of skill.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »What’s the deal with the recent spike in NB hate/salt?
In this last patch, basically nightblades became immune to two class specific and one general counter.
* Warden cliff racers are dodgeable. These used to be a nightblade’s bane, now they won’t ever hit you if you’re any good. Never. Hit.
* DK powerlash got a cooldown, and is now dodgeable. A nightblade will almost never get hit by this, the single most damaging regular skill proc that a magDK has, thats also tied to their burst heal. And they absolutely suck against good stamblades with it being dodgeable. Can’t hit you. Can’t heal. **** you ZOS.
* Soul Assault took a huge nerf to the snare, which used to be the whole point in using it. Its easy to escape now without dying.
So now TWO classes are now free AP Piñatas for nightblades that weren’t before. You are GOING to get a lot of these threads, you won’t like it, but neither do they.
Yes, and all of those were good changes because they really were countering medium armor builds too hard. I still see mDKs & Wardens doing well in Cyrodiil, BGs & Duels.
Also, you still get the heal from Power Lash even if it misses btw.
That said, I do agree that dodge roll spam needs to be toned down.
I like how it actually accomplishes something in this patch, but I dislike that people can spam it nonstop without running out of stamina.
So maybe ZOS should increase the stacking cost modifier for dodge roll (or increase the duration for the debuff so that people can't use one cloak to just reset the counter & carry on spamming dodge roll until the next Incap).
Also, builds that struggle vs dodge roll tactics should get some undodgeable abilities (on par with Steel Tornado/Brawler which were recently changed to be undodgeable). For instance, bow builds should be able to bypass dodge roll with Acid Spray/Bombard.
Bottom line: Dodge is the strongest damage mitigation tool this patch. So many counters were removed for “consistency” that it’s ridiculous. It only follows that the cloaking/dodge roll class becomes the most powerful in Cyrodiil.
This exactly!!!
I may be a little biased here, since I play magblade 99% of the time, but imo roll dodge is the single most overpowered defense mechanic this patch. Combine that with the ABSURD (!!!) 30% dodge chance that major evasion have and you'll be lucky to ever be able to catch a roller build (note how I didn't say rollerblade, even though they're the main culprits), let alone burst them down.
Also, the "mark me and it's gg" argument doesn't really add up. I shouldn't have to change up my build completely just so I can have a chance to beat one single spec. It's a flawed argument and it shouldn't exist to begin with.
FIRST OF ALL we need to get rid of major evasion. Combat in a fast paced game like ESO shouldn't depend on rng. It's absurd that I hit a player with the same ability 6 *** TIMES IN A ROW while he's standing still and I can't land a single one.
That's nonsense and you know that. First of all, Major Evasion is 15% and not 30%. And second, stam needs some fair defense as well, dodgeroll builds without Cloak aren't viable, otherwise non nb classes wouldn't all play tank builds. Magicka currently has better sustain, better pressure and better defense, only thing which makes stam looking stronger than it is is sword and board, cloak and heavy attacks.
Major evasion is 15% x2. If you miss the light attack weave you will miss the ability as well. So you have 15% chance to miss the ability followed by another 15% chance on the actual ability...
Not to mention that stam overall is far easier to play and more forgiving than magicka, and you must know that too. If you *** up putting a shield up you're in 1 hit territory, whereas stam can just pop a vigor and dodge roll a few times and it's back to square one.
As for the pressure, that's wrong. Stam can have just as much pressure as mag. Or what do you mean by pressure? Stam has superior burst by a long mile, and pvp is all about burst anyway. Mag duel builds that have good DOT pressure shouldn't even come into the discussion since those are meh in actual real pvp where you need to burst people down.
There's a reason why stamblades are so popular right now. If pvp was all about pressure they would be at the bottom, yet they're not.
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ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Im getting tried to see NB nerfing, Zos, please toss me a class change token, i really want to change to other class with all my achievements.
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Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway3 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Im not too invested at the moment, too busy with work etc, but nbs are f everywhere these days in cyrodiil. I wouldnt mind a nerf to cloak...make it alot more restrictive so ppl cant just "poof" and gone and safe. I think thats the main reason so many ppl are playing it atm, "why die if I can avoid it".
I wouldnt mind some nerfs to the offensiveness of nightblades either, I mean they can rly pack a punch burstwise and still have plenty of sustain to escape (with the help of cloak etc)
Bring on the nerfs, maybe nb wont be so darn popular anymore.
However, one thing that I actually feel strongly should get somewhat buffed, is the selfhealing or defence of stamblades that dont want to be a cloak hit N runner. The bruiser playstyle is what does it for me and the main reason I still have cloak slotted on my build is as a soul assault counter. The vanilla selfhealing of a stamblade is junk.
PC EU
PvP only5 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.
With that logic no adjustments would be made at all because only ZOS has the data. Of course players will make suggestions based on what they have - experience.
And why is it fine then that the common defense „Incap has a sound cue, you can easily dodge it, and I never die to it“ is acceptable? That’s even less valid then a number estimation because it depends on so many variables.
I find the defensive arguments that don’t want to see nerfs to be disingenuous mostly. The most hilarious are those that think buffs are in order instead of reasonable adjustments.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.
With that logic no adjustments would be made at all because only ZOS has the data. Of course players will make suggestions based on what they have - experience.
And why is it fine then that the common defense „Incap has a sound cue, you can easily dodge it, and I never die to it“ is acceptable? That’s even less valid then a number estimation because it depends on so many variables.
I find the defensive arguments that don’t want to see nerfs to be disingenuous mostly. The most hilarious are those that think buffs are in order instead of reasonable adjustments.
No, what is illogical is asking for nerfs based off of personal experience from one platform, from one campaign, during what I assume is a 4/5 hour gaming session.
Why should my data be discarded? Is my experience not as valid? I mostly see wardens and dks, that wasn't a joke, now the no nb's was an exaggeration, but not by much. My data is just as valid as op's.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.
With that logic no adjustments would be made at all because only ZOS has the data. Of course players will make suggestions based on what they have - experience.
And why is it fine then that the common defense „Incap has a sound cue, you can easily dodge it, and I never die to it“ is acceptable? That’s even less valid then a number estimation because it depends on so many variables.
I find the defensive arguments that don’t want to see nerfs to be disingenuous mostly. The most hilarious are those that think buffs are in order instead of reasonable adjustments.
No, what is illogical is asking for nerfs based off of personal experience from one platform, from one campaign, during what I assume is a 4/5 hour gaming session.
Why should my data be discarded? Is my experience not as valid? I mostly see wardens and dks, that wasn't a joke, now the no nb's was an exaggeration, but not by much. My data is just as valid as op's.
It’s not illogical. It’s the only thing players have.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.
With that logic no adjustments would be made at all because only ZOS has the data. Of course players will make suggestions based on what they have - experience.
And why is it fine then that the common defense „Incap has a sound cue, you can easily dodge it, and I never die to it“ is acceptable? That’s even less valid then a number estimation because it depends on so many variables.
I find the defensive arguments that don’t want to see nerfs to be disingenuous mostly. The most hilarious are those that think buffs are in order instead of reasonable adjustments.
No, what is illogical is asking for nerfs based off of personal experience from one platform, from one campaign, during what I assume is a 4/5 hour gaming session.
Why should my data be discarded? Is my experience not as valid? I mostly see wardens and dks, that wasn't a joke, now the no nb's was an exaggeration, but not by much. My data is just as valid as op's.
It’s not illogical. It’s the only thing players have.
Exactly why players should have zero input, they don't have access to ALL the data. Player input is bias, whether we admit it or not, we all think we know what's best for the game.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.
With that logic no adjustments would be made at all because only ZOS has the data. Of course players will make suggestions based on what they have - experience.
And why is it fine then that the common defense „Incap has a sound cue, you can easily dodge it, and I never die to it“ is acceptable? That’s even less valid then a number estimation because it depends on so many variables.
I find the defensive arguments that don’t want to see nerfs to be disingenuous mostly. The most hilarious are those that think buffs are in order instead of reasonable adjustments.
No, what is illogical is asking for nerfs based off of personal experience from one platform, from one campaign, during what I assume is a 4/5 hour gaming session.
Why should my data be discarded? Is my experience not as valid? I mostly see wardens and dks, that wasn't a joke, now the no nb's was an exaggeration, but not by much. My data is just as valid as op's.
It’s not illogical. It’s the only thing players have.
Exactly why players should have zero input, they don't have access to ALL the data. Player input is bias, whether we admit it or not, we all think we know what's best for the game.
I don’t think that’s something where data helps. If ZOS said „37.2% of players over all campaigns and platforms play a Nightblade for more than 10 hours a week, and using Incapacitating Strike hits for 9,200 damage on average and results in a kill 4 seconds after the hit in 73% of the time.“
Would we be any nearer to the conclusion if Incap is overperforming? I think not. It’s always going to be experience based because data cannot catch all the variables of every day Cyrodiil.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.
With that logic no adjustments would be made at all because only ZOS has the data. Of course players will make suggestions based on what they have - experience.
And why is it fine then that the common defense „Incap has a sound cue, you can easily dodge it, and I never die to it“ is acceptable? That’s even less valid then a number estimation because it depends on so many variables.
I find the defensive arguments that don’t want to see nerfs to be disingenuous mostly. The most hilarious are those that think buffs are in order instead of reasonable adjustments.
No, what is illogical is asking for nerfs based off of personal experience from one platform, from one campaign, during what I assume is a 4/5 hour gaming session.
Why should my data be discarded? Is my experience not as valid? I mostly see wardens and dks, that wasn't a joke, now the no nb's was an exaggeration, but not by much. My data is just as valid as op's.
It’s not illogical. It’s the only thing players have.
Exactly why players should have zero input, they don't have access to ALL the data. Player input is bias, whether we admit it or not, we all think we know what's best for the game.
I don’t think that’s something where data helps. If ZOS said „37.2% of players over all campaigns and platforms play a Nightblade for more than 10 hours a week, and using Incapacitating Strike hits for 9,200 damage on average and results in a kill 4 seconds after the hit in 73% of the time.“
Would we be any nearer to the conclusion if Incap is overperforming? I think not. It’s always going to be experience based because data cannot catch all the variables of every day Cyrodiil.
Sigh. Again, exactly my point. Not everyone is going to have the same experience. I almost never lag while playing eso, does that mean eso doesn't have a lag issue?
Now if op had said he'd gathered from numerous other players, playing on different platforms in all PvP related content, then we can start to figure out what is what. A single experience simply isn't enough, imho.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.
With that logic no adjustments would be made at all because only ZOS has the data. Of course players will make suggestions based on what they have - experience.
And why is it fine then that the common defense „Incap has a sound cue, you can easily dodge it, and I never die to it“ is acceptable? That’s even less valid then a number estimation because it depends on so many variables.
I find the defensive arguments that don’t want to see nerfs to be disingenuous mostly. The most hilarious are those that think buffs are in order instead of reasonable adjustments.
No, what is illogical is asking for nerfs based off of personal experience from one platform, from one campaign, during what I assume is a 4/5 hour gaming session.
Why should my data be discarded? Is my experience not as valid? I mostly see wardens and dks, that wasn't a joke, now the no nb's was an exaggeration, but not by much. My data is just as valid as op's.
It’s not illogical. It’s the only thing players have.
Exactly why players should have zero input, they don't have access to ALL the data. Player input is bias, whether we admit it or not, we all think we know what's best for the game.
I don’t think that’s something where data helps. If ZOS said „37.2% of players over all campaigns and platforms play a Nightblade for more than 10 hours a week, and using Incapacitating Strike hits for 9,200 damage on average and results in a kill 4 seconds after the hit in 73% of the time.“
Would we be any nearer to the conclusion if Incap is overperforming? I think not. It’s always going to be experience based because data cannot catch all the variables of every day Cyrodiil.
Sigh. Again, exactly my point. Not everyone is going to have the same experience. I almost never lag while playing eso, does that mean eso doesn't have a lag issue?
Now if op had said he'd gathered from numerous other players, playing on different platforms in all PvP related content, then we can start to figure out what is what. A single experience simply isn't enough, imho.
If that’s your opinion then there can’t be any balance discussions and the decisions ZOS takes are simply to be accepted as being the greater wisdom. We all know that’s not true though.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ooh, we're using personal experience to validate nerfs?
Ok, I never see nb's in cyro, haven't had one show up on my kill count or death recap and it's been this way for months now. Wtf?
Mostly dk's and wardens so my suggestion would be to nerf em both as they are obviously op.
Sounds legit.
With that logic no adjustments would be made at all because only ZOS has the data. Of course players will make suggestions based on what they have - experience.
And why is it fine then that the common defense „Incap has a sound cue, you can easily dodge it, and I never die to it“ is acceptable? That’s even less valid then a number estimation because it depends on so many variables.
I find the defensive arguments that don’t want to see nerfs to be disingenuous mostly. The most hilarious are those that think buffs are in order instead of reasonable adjustments.
No, what is illogical is asking for nerfs based off of personal experience from one platform, from one campaign, during what I assume is a 4/5 hour gaming session.
Why should my data be discarded? Is my experience not as valid? I mostly see wardens and dks, that wasn't a joke, now the no nb's was an exaggeration, but not by much. My data is just as valid as op's.
It’s not illogical. It’s the only thing players have.
Exactly why players should have zero input, they don't have access to ALL the data. Player input is bias, whether we admit it or not, we all think we know what's best for the game.
I don’t think that’s something where data helps. If ZOS said „37.2% of players over all campaigns and platforms play a Nightblade for more than 10 hours a week, and using Incapacitating Strike hits for 9,200 damage on average and results in a kill 4 seconds after the hit in 73% of the time.“
Would we be any nearer to the conclusion if Incap is overperforming? I think not. It’s always going to be experience based because data cannot catch all the variables of every day Cyrodiil.
Sigh. Again, exactly my point. Not everyone is going to have the same experience. I almost never lag while playing eso, does that mean eso doesn't have a lag issue?
Now if op had said he'd gathered from numerous other players, playing on different platforms in all PvP related content, then we can start to figure out what is what. A single experience simply isn't enough, imho.
If I'd base my balance requests on numbers of players using X. But i only used the numbers to show that there actually was a change in nightblade population.
Also as this isn't my experience alone, @Thogard made the same experience on PC NA, @Derra and @Subversus made the same experience on PC EU.
Also i based my balance request on the reason why the number of nightblades started to increase this much not the actual number in game0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »Yea I am not reading this but as a pve only nightblade who is not interested in pvp at all can we please stop ruining pve balance for *** pvp...
This is a funny post; magblade will get nerfed in pvp BECAUSE of pve. So yeah, thanks for the parses and the 8 magblade raid comps
I blame bad designed trials (*stares at Asylum Sanctorium*) for the magblade meta. But even outside Asylum magblade outperforms any other magicka class by a little too much if you ask me. But I would rather see the other magicka classes being up to the same level as current magblade instead of destroying magblades in PvE.
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Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ok, simple question, which players experience should they consider? If I state everyone in all 10 of my guilds, on both Xbox and ps4 has the same experience as I, does that trump the experience of 4 players?There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway0 -
Azurya✭✭✭✭✭
✭Look at the boards for vMA, nothing to see there about NB being so OP!
In fact if we would take that as a reference for being OP, we see other classes being more OP.
But to give these whole discussions about NERF this and that an more promissing direction,
I pledge for giving ideas in what way we can bring other classes more to pare.
What ideas, considerations has the community, especially those who play a class with much love
to bring it up, so it can be promising to in one way or another.
Because players asking for ideas for a class they don´t play, just see them as opponents, cannot be very valuable, imho.
so pls go ahead and drop your thoughts to your most beloved class!
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, simple question, which players experience should they consider? If I state everyone in all 10 of my guilds, on both Xbox and ps4 has the same experience as I, does that trump the experience of 4 players?
Don't you understand, the increase in number is only a symptom that NBs are overperfoming.
The actual reason why nbs will be nerfed is because they perform too good0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Look at the boards for vMA, nothing to see there about NB being so OP!
In fact if we would take that as a reference for being OP, we see other classes being more OP.
But to give these whole discussions about NERF this and that an more promissing direction,
I pledge for giving ideas in what way we can bring other classes more to pare.
What ideas, considerations has the community, especially those who play a class with much love
to bring it up, so it can be promising to in one way or another.
Because players asking for ideas for a class they don´t play, just see them as opponents, cannot be very valuable, imho.
so pls go ahead and drop your thoughts to your most beloved class!
Nightblade was always one of the top for doing VMSA . The first 600+ run was done on a Nightblade.
Also no one cares about vMSA when we are talking about balance.
Also can you even read? This post is exactly what you say with the exception that only the good ones should discuss about balance and not the ones who love NBs0 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ok, simple question, which players experience should they consider? If I state everyone in all 10 of my guilds, on both Xbox and ps4 has the same experience as I, does that trump the experience of 4 players?
Don't you understand, the increase in number is only a symptom that NBs are overperfoming.
The actual reason why nbs will be nerfed is because they perform too good
Again, from MY experience, there is no increase in nb's, in fact it's the exact opposite. So which players experience should be taken to heart when considering nerfs?There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, simple question, which players experience should they consider? If I state everyone in all 10 of my guilds, on both Xbox and ps4 has the same experience as I, does that trump the experience of 4 players?
Don't you understand, the increase in number is only a symptom that NBs are overperfoming.
The actual reason why nbs will be nerfed is because they perform too good
Again, from MY experience, there is no increase in nb's, in fact it's the exact opposite. So which players experience should be taken to heart when considering nerfs?
Not based on the damn numbers!!! Get it into your brain the numbers mean nothing for actual balance but they are an indicant for balance issues but they do not determine if a class is op alone
The actual combat performance is what matters and this is where nightblades are overperfoming.
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