If someone doesn't complete end game trials on vet, do you consider them a bad player?

BlackStar300 · March 2018

I only bring this up because, I'll quickly explain, I had a DPS doing 30k dmg, (and I saw the other thread), but wouldn't be taken to these trials vMoL, vHoF, and vAS. In spite of that I gave up my 4 year run as DPS to try a new role as a healer. Quickly, in the month, I've brought my healer up to speed (not saying I'm the best) and have completed dungeon content my DPS has never been able to do (such as Bloodroot, Falkreath HM, Mazz HM, Scalecaller, and Fang Lair) since making myself play support since my DD is apparently lacking.

I've done all trials on my healer thus far except vSO (the group went into HM that night-PUG mind you), vMoL, vHoF, and vAS (tried to pug this as well).

I'm not in a trials guild, but I used to be, but going into my question more. I never really liked trials, but a previous guild got me doing them and now I've had this bug of completing all the content at least once even on vet, but these end trials are killing me. Made me quit my DPS and honestly making me if its even worth it. Yes, these are pugs so they are known to not be all that great (my guild doesn't have ppl prepped fully prepped for vets just yet).

So, knowing all this would you consider a player who doesn't do this content bad? I'm told that in just a month of healing that I'm a pretty decent ass healer (hell I'm told that I'm decent at DPS at 30k, but that doesn't get me nowhere), but dealing with the pug I had last night for vSOHM makes me contemplate if I'll EVER get vMoL, vHoF, and vAS clears unless I pay for them and I can't bring myself to do that either, but its starting to get to that point...

VaranisArano · March 2018

Well, that's not a loaded question at all...

I won't consider you an elite of the elite, no. A bad player, to me, is one who utterly fails at their chosen role and does not seek to improve. That does not appear to be true in your case.

But then I am not an elite of the elite player in the slightest, so perhaps things look different from that exalted perspective.

Sharee · March 2018

Its a game. Having fun? You are doing it right. Not having fun? Do something else.

Bad, not bad, who cares? It's not a job.

Nestor · March 2018

Remember, most people don't try Vet Trials.

Heck, I would rather do group content with my Healer or my Tank, not my DPS. Besides, DPS is easy. All you need is some gear, a copied build, and some hours practicing a rotation. Once done, you can apply that to any group content. But, to Tank or Heal a large group in Vet Content? That takes skill, and is more fun anyway.

Anotherone773 · March 2018

There are no bad players just bad people. Players "arent good enough" to do end game content for a variety of reasons. Many of those are due to physical limitations or they arent competitive enough( at least not at games) in order to improve to a level in which they are considered "elite" . Some just want to kill stuff and not try to learn a bunch of technical nonsense and pick the game apart and analyze every aspect of it. Some dont have the mental capacity( memory) or coordination in order to parse optimal numbers.

Add to this the long list of issues the game presents itself in the form of lag spikes, frame rate drops, and bugs and being able to parse optimal numbers is likely more of a fluke than normal elite ability. Sure its great after 40 parses to tell you guild mates you hit 47k dps( heavy on the cheese) on a dummy in a controlled environment, but when you start encountering some of the nonsense i see in dungeons, its more about trying to deal with the games failures and not so much about doing maximum DPS.

Some of the critical issues ive noticed in dungeons, and it gets progressively worse each patch( we can call these spontaneous hard mode) :

*weapon swap not working at all or swapping by itself
* ability A> LA> ability B becomes ability A> LA> ability A again.( This is a new one ive been getting since last patch.)
* Ground AOE( targets)> LA( fires ground AOE)> LA> Ability A becomes Ground AOE> LA( fires AOE)> LA ( fires aoe again wherever crosshairs are)> ability A( becomes ground AOE targeting circle). This is also a relatively new one. If you push buttons REALLY slow it works normally. its like the server cant keep up with anything but slow motion.
* Bugged boss abilities such as No red, no animation.
* random FPS drops
* random lag spikes.
* abilities not firing at all, firing late, or even better LA that never stop firing.
* " lemming mode" - No attacks or abilities work ( usually happens after a boss ability) for an infinite amount of time( even after boss is dead). Have to reload UI to fix. That will be fun on a trial boss!
* "Forest Gump mode" - Your. character.just.cant.stop.running. RUN FOREST, RUN! ReloadUI to fix that as well.

edit because i forgot two modes:
* "Chaos Mode" -Press button for ability A and Ability C fires( new one since dragon bones)
*" Cant stop the overload mode" - Overload wont toggle ( off usually) sometimes get stuck in heavy overload attack mode( have to toggle overload off if it works to fix it or reloadUI or burn up all ultimate)

With all these issues and more, completing any content is damn near getting lucky. I cant take any type of instant running seriously with all these issues constantly showing up in instances

BlackStar300 · March 2018

Nestor wrote: »

Remember, most people don't try Vet Trials.

Heck, I would rather do group content with my Healer or my Tank, not my DPS. Besides, DPS is easy. All you need is some gear, a copied build, and some hours practicing a rotation. Once done, you can apply that to any group content. But, to Tank or Heal a large group in Vet Content? That takes skill, and is more fun anyway.

I suppose that is true about the % of ppl that even do trials let alone vets, but as long as I've been DPS I've improved my character to be 30k, but still it didn't come easy to improve after that and now I'm hearing the gear shift and dmg parses move into another direction that my 30k is lacking to an extent.

I've had good luck in healing moreso than my DPS because I'm not on the DPS side of things. I'm supporting the group and not feeling so bad about my DPS marks. Even some ppl in my guild who run lower DPS than me I can now keep them alive with my years of watching healers so the content I've been able to do has increased, but still I'm still short a a few clears...

redspecter23 · March 2018

Some players are just not capable of completing some of the harder content without being carried. They just don't have the skill level for whatever reason, however they may have friends or guildmates that bring them through. There are also some players that are fully skilled enough but perhaps aren't running in the right circles to be invited to this sort of content. They are capable but lack the means to get the completions.

For these reasons, I wouldn't say that completion on non-completion of vet end game trials are indicative of player skill.

Zorgon_The_Revenged · March 2018

12 players who have never played together doing vetHM trials sounds like a nightmare.

Mister_DMC · March 2018

@op Find a trials guild with nice people that will take the time to learn the content together. It will take a long time to complete but you'll get it done. Took me 3 months to beat vmol, dlc trials are very hard.

code65536 · March 2018

You need to find and join a trials guild if you want to complete vet trials, particularly the DLC ones.

RazorCaltrops · March 2018

Remember, none of these end game players started from the top in the beginning. Try to join a raid guild, as long as you improve yourself the rest will come.

Maura_Neysa · March 2018

My best DPS is 22k, but I can solo the vSO Mantikora pull. You have to find your play style. One thing I would go for before worrying about whether I could do all of the Trails, is Skins, you only need 4 solid players for that one, so you're less reliant on PuGs and the 4 of you can get a lot more practices in. Once you have 4 Man Skins, its pretty hard to self doubt the quality of player you are.

I'm also not saying that Skins make or break a "good" player. I'll take 30k DPS that can stay alive over a 45k Target Dummy Warrior any day of the week.

Beardimus · March 2018

Remembering its an MMORPG defining good / bad or even end game is near impossible.

For some its fishing, or hitting a million in the bank.

For me Norm trials to Vet trials is chasing meta and rotations etc, personally I think the skill for high end PvP players is alot higher but that's not saying anyone is good or bad. It's a game not a job, and like I say all peoples goals are different.

I will say Trials community is the only place ive felt I can't or shouldn't play how I wanna.

Dapper Dinosaur · March 2018

The problem with trials is that there are literally 3-4x as many DPS as healers in it. This means one bad dps is much more likely to be carried by the other dps than an average healer will, because if one of the two healers is not good, the effect will ripple through the rest of the group, whereas one person pulling 5k less DPS than everyone else will just make the fight take very slightly longer. In addition, a dps that can't pull ultra-high numbers but dies less than everyone else will still be a heavy contributor, be it through the damage itself or rezzing the "better" dps that keep dying.

All of my greatest accomplishments as a player have been achieved on my healer, because as an Argonian4Lyfe, I simply can't pull 30k+ dps no matter what I do or how flawlessly I do my rotation, whereas Argonians are ideal for healing. Does that make me a bad player if healing is my mealticket to clearing content, even if it's just because I basically only play this game for Argonians? I've completed all dungeon skin challenges except the DBones dungeons, and I would already have those if I could find other people that know the dungeons as well as I do to do the runs (Xbox NA). I know all the mechanics of every dungeon and trial available to me inside and out, and am constantly having to explain them to teammates if someone else isn't taking care of it. I'd say this makes me a pretty good player. I know everything important about all of the PVE content I attempt, and I can act on that knowledge consistently. My inability to dps at top-level shouldn't be considered a factor to judge me by.

BlackStar300 · March 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

Remembering its an MMORPG defining good / bad or even end game is near impossible.

For some its fishing, or hitting a million in the bank.

For me Norm trials to Vet trials is chasing meta and rotations etc, personally I think the skill for high end PvP players is alot higher but that's not saying anyone is good or bad. It's a game not a job, and like I say all peoples goals are different.

I will say Trials community is the only place ive felt I can't or shouldn't play how I wanna.

That is true. The community in trials is very "use this or no go". I know its not a job, but there is a sense in accomplishment in saying "I've done all the content" That was my goal on my DPS after doing so much on it including vMA and vDSA which respectively some ppl just can't do. vMA is still the hardest solo content and many players to this day cannot complete it.

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The problem with trials is that there are literally 3-4x as many DPS as healers in it. This means one bad dps is much more likely to be carried by the other dps than an average healer will, because if one of the two healers is not good, the effect will ripple through the rest of the group, whereas one person pulling 5k less DPS than everyone else will just make the fight take very slightly longer. In addition, a dps that can't pull ultra-high numbers but dies less than everyone else will still be a heavy contributor, be it through the damage itself or rezzing the "better" dps that keep dying.

All of my greatest accomplishments as a player have been achieved on my healer, because as an Argonian4Lyfe, I simply can't pull 30k+ dps no matter what I do or how flawlessly I do my rotation, whereas Argonians are ideal for healing. Does that make me a bad player if healing is my mealticket to clearing content, even if it's just because I basically only play this game for Argonians? I've completed all dungeon skin challenges except the DBones dungeons, and I would already have those if I could find other people that know the dungeons as well as I do to do the runs (Xbox NA). I know all the mechanics of every dungeon and trial available to me inside and out, and am constantly having to explain them to teammates if someone else isn't taking care of it. I'd say this makes me a pretty good player. I know everything important about all of the PVE content I attempt, and I can act on that knowledge consistently. My inability to dps at top-level shouldn't be considered a factor to judge me by.

The 30k DPS I put out seems to be fine and like you have said you can be brought in with a lower threshold as long as other members are pulling the slack just slightly, but nobody would even bother. I asked one trials guild I was in "why can't I go if one member is pulling above 40k DPS and the req. is 35k DPS?" They cover way above my share and the only reason why I offered was because they didn't have enough ppl so I put my foot forward, but still go rejected.

I know all dungeon mechanics myself, but I don't have any skins. I don't really care for skins except for Spiderkith as vCOS is my favorite dungeon, but I have a guild where I teach all my members dungeon mechanics because I know them in and out. Like I said in my OP I've healed some pretty hard stuff in only a month of healing and healed Mazz HM for my friend for her to get a skin (that I didn't get cuz we did the other 2 req. on my mag sorc which is the DPS I retired in the aforementioned)

And again as you say I would rather take someone lower and doesn't die all the time as the test dummy doesn't simulate real fights. I preach this to my guild. I don't want 100k DPS, but you dying every second, but these trials guilds....I never met one that isn't downright elitist in some way. Its kinda why I'm on this dark road to complete the content with pugs and hoping for the best because THEY DON'T CARE. They don't judge, whereas I get in trial guilds and they have a VERY NASTY side to them.

aaylas · March 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

There are no bad players just bad people. Players "arent good enough" to do end game content for a variety of reasons. Many of those are due to physical limitations or they arent competitive enough( at least not at games) in order to improve to a level in which they are considered "elite" . Some just want to kill stuff and not try to learn a bunch of technical nonsense and pick the game apart and analyze every aspect of it. Some dont have the mental capacity( memory) or coordination in order to parse optimal numbers.

Add to this the long list of issues the game presents itself in the form of lag spikes, frame rate drops, and bugs and being able to parse optimal numbers is likely more of a fluke than normal elite ability. Sure its great after 40 parses to tell you guild mates you hit 47k dps( heavy on the cheese) on a dummy in a controlled environment, but when you start encountering some of the nonsense i see in dungeons, its more about trying to deal with the games failures and not so much about doing maximum DPS.

Some of the critical issues ive noticed in dungeons, and it gets progressively worse each patch( we can call these spontaneous hard mode) :

*weapon swap not working at all or swapping by itself
* ability A> LA> ability B becomes ability A> LA> ability A again.( This is a new one ive been getting since last patch.)
* Ground AOE( targets)> LA( fires ground AOE)> LA> Ability A becomes Ground AOE> LA( fires AOE)> LA ( fires aoe again wherever crosshairs are)> ability A( becomes ground AOE targeting circle). This is also a relatively new one. If you push buttons REALLY slow it works normally. its like the server cant keep up with anything but slow motion.
* Bugged boss abilities such as No red, no animation.
* random FPS drops
* random lag spikes.
* abilities not firing at all, firing late, or even better LA that never stop firing.
* " lemming mode" - No attacks or abilities work ( usually happens after a boss ability) for an infinite amount of time( even after boss is dead). Have to reload UI to fix. That will be fun on a trial boss!
* "Forest Gump mode" - Your. character.just.cant.stop.running. RUN FOREST, RUN! ReloadUI to fix that as well.

edit because i forgot two modes:
* "Chaos Mode" -Press button for ability A and Ability C fires( new one since dragon bones)
*" Cant stop the overload mode" - Overload wont toggle ( off usually) sometimes get stuck in heavy overload attack mode( have to toggle overload off if it works to fix it or reloadUI or burn up all ultimate)

With all these issues and more, completing any content is damn near getting lucky. I cant take any type of instant running seriously with all these issues constantly showing up in instances

This describes my user experience lately.

I tried vMA this weekend on my petsorc. About 5 deaths into round 5, I let out a feral scream as I died AGAIN when I couldn't bar swap back to refresh my shield. The previous deaths were all from the same issue or abilities not firing when I was on the right bar. I suspect some of them might have been the result of being feared, but the animation not playing.

I was walking around Vivec City yesterday and my bar swaps were taking between 1 and 2 seconds just walking around the city out of combat

eso_nya · March 2018

I judge ppl for their char-/accountname and their attitude/behaviour.

As far as achievments r concerned: do whatever u do to have fun, its not like u get paid to be here. At the end of the day, the only person in the world who cares about your achievs/titles/accomplishments is you.

Kumbiya · March 2018

I wouldn't necessarily consider them a bad player - especially if they're PvP oriented. I'm a pretty successful end game raider but still a zergling in PvP, so you can be very solid in one and not so solid in another. That being said, I would consider most of the player base to be bad players/casuals regardless - seen way too many times people not knowing that weaving is a thing, just spamming one ability, etc..